I am sorry to say you don't know what you are talking about. I was very clear and concise in what I said, and I summed up the crux of the political debate in Europe at the moment, with some simplifications and blanket statements of course but I am not here to write diatribes. Whoever gets it, gets it, and should have got it by 2008. Apple isnt goldman, and its not a speculating finance firm, but that does not exclude it from the underegulated global capital category.
If your level of liberalism goes this far you might want to start reading the guardian instead of the nyt and get a clue as to why a lot of people in Europe (as well as the states) refer to your two major political parties in the as the democans and the republicrats, and why socialism is equated with Stalinism in your mainstream political discourse.
And apple should bloody well start paying their proper taxes in Europe instead of solely "maximising" their profit... The poster from Spain was absolutely right. Spain is reaching 20% official unemployment levels, and pretty soon young people might be looting apple stores instead of saving to buy their macs seeing as they don't have jobs, while Tim Cook feels self important talking at Goldman conferences. Apple should choose if they want to keep paying their taxes in Ireland and Luxembourg or pay said share of tax in Spain. The same people who were forewarning about 2008 are warning apple type multinationals right know that they have a choice...
Your simplifications and blanket statements are what make your previous and current posts irrelevant. In your previous post you lumped Apple in with the bailed out banks simply because they're both publicly traded companies. By the same logic you're just as guilty as President Assad for the atrocities today in Syria because you're both human beings.
America has it's failings to be sure (I'm an American) but living in various EU countries for seven of the last ten years it is abundantly clear that the corruption within and failures of the governments throughout Europe make American businesses and politicians look like philanthropic angels. The unemployment rates in Spain and Greece are so high because they were overly dependent on public sector employment. Instead of making economic conditions good for corporations and small businesses so that they could grow and hire the governments just used debt to hire millions of people to do empty jobs for useless, previously non-existent government agencies. Now that the house of cards is falling in on itself unemployeed people are looking for others to blame, and the politicians who gave them their jobs in the first place are the only ones who share responsibility in addition to themselves.
Apple is paying their proper taxes in Europe, just like they are in the US and the rest of the world. If they weren't they would be in court. People and countries (Australia for example) are dragging Apple in to court every day, for even the most frivolous reasons but there have been no court cases (or even official allegations) to date related to illegal tax dodging.
You are either a masochist or banker, publicly traded companies (financial institutions) brought America and Europe to its knees precisely by figuring out elaborate schemes to evade paying their fair share back to societies. The ones that had to bail them out so they could keep enjoying the same level of obscenely large bonuses for their execs.
Apple is no exception here and should certainly not be commended for playing one euro country against the other, pocketing politicians, and figuring out schemes to pay as little as they can back to the Eurozone on the whole.
Nope. Socialism has screwed the global economy. 'Blame the banks' is for the most part, just socialist, anti capitalist, spin. Don't sucker for it.
Your simplifications and blanket statements are what make your previous and current posts irrelevant. In your previous post you lumped Apple in with the bailed out banks simply because they're both publicly traded companies. By the same logic you're just as guilty as President Assad for the atrocities today in Syria because you're both human beings.
America has it's failings to be sure (I'm an American) but living in various EU countries for seven of the last ten years it is abundantly clear that the corruption within and failures of the governments throughout Europe make American businesses and politicians look like philanthropic angels. The unemployment rates in Spain and Greece are so high because they were overly dependent on public sector employment. Instead of making economic conditions good for corporations and small businesses so that they could grow and hire the governments just used debt to hire millions of people to do empty jobs for useless, previously non-existent government agencies. Now that the house of cards is falling in on itself unemployeed people are looking for others to blame, and the politicians who gave them their jobs in the first place are the only ones who share responsibility in addition to themselves.
Apple is paying their proper taxes in Europe, just like they are in the US and the rest of the world. If they weren't they would be in court. People and countries (Australia for example) are dragging Apple in to court every day, for even the most frivolous reasons but there have been no court cases (or even official allegations) to date related to illegal tax dodging.
Your simplifications and blanket statements are what make your previous and current posts irrelevant. In your previous post you lumped Apple in with the bailed out banks simply because they're both publicly traded companies. By the same logic you're just as guilty as President Assad for the atrocities today in Syria because you're both human beings.
America has it's failings to be sure (I'm an American) but living in various EU countries for seven of the last ten years it is abundantly clear that the corruption within and failures of the governments throughout Europe make American businesses and politicians look like philanthropic angels. The unemployment rates in Spain and Greece are so high because they were overly dependent on public sector employment. Instead of making economic conditions good for corporations and small businesses so that they could grow and hire the governments just used debt to hire millions of people to do empty jobs for useless, previously non-existent government agencies. Now that the house of cards is falling in on itself unemployeed people are looking for others to blame, and the politicians who gave them their jobs in the first place are the only ones who share responsibility in addition to themselves.
Apple is paying their proper taxes in Europe, just like they are in the US and the rest of the world. If they weren't they would be in court. People and countries (Australia for example) are dragging Apple in to court every day, for even the most frivolous reasons but there have been no court cases (or even official allegations) to date related to illegal tax dodging.
Being a ridiculed Apple user back in the day when everyone who DIDN'T touch a Mac was proud of that fact and felt entitled to comment on which device was better -- I knew that one day, with Steve Jobs back at the helm, Apple would rise again.
But this is absolutely surreal... I couldn't even imagine Microsoft being the PRIME mover of the S&P 500. They even now make stock charts WITH and WITHOUT Apple. They never even did that when GM was on top.
Not sure if this is something to worry about or rejoice about -- all I can say that at least it's not an oil company, insurance company, war contractor, or a financial services company -- at least it's something USEFUL that gets sold.
You should make up your mind. What he wrote is not much different than what I wrote, except they went into more detail. It is the government's fault in those countries, just like I wrote. Big govt, with a ton of useless public workers is a failed policy, both in Europe and in the US.
Nope. Socialism has screwed the global economy. 'Blame the banks' is for the most part, just socialist, anti capitalist, spin. Don't sucker for it.
Yeah -- pay NO ATTENTION to where the money is going, and ignore the fact that Socialism was alive and well in Europe for decades before the Globalists and "free banking" Cool-Aide was served.
It's easy once you own the press to point the blame -- so as a consumer of media, we all have to be wary that we have to apply LOGIC to what we learn. If banks both have high interest rates, and soak up billions in high-yeild investments -- and then they go belly up and have to be bailed out, and suddenly, all these nations are bankrupt -- then it stands to reason that it was a BIG FLOW OF MONEY OUT OF THE COUNTRY.
How does a "socialist" government job or pension cause money to flow out of a country? If a government is bogged down with waste caring for old people or teachers -- it's still money in people's hands being spent in the country.
THE ONLY WAY a Sovereign state can go "bankrupt" is if it doesn't control it's banks, money flow, and trade policies -- and WHAT group taught everyone that free trade, free banking and being globally competitive with low wages was going to make everything wonderful?
"Anti-Capitalist" -- It used to be called being Prudent. Having Regulations like Glass/Stegal, and having the money printed by the government USED to be how things were done. You've been taught that any time a Billionaire has someone curtailing their power and having oversight on large corporations that's anti-capitalism. So bubbles and collapsing economies is "PRO" Capitalism? Doesn't say much for your adopted religion.
You should make up your mind. What he wrote is not much different than what I wrote, except they went into more detail. It is the government's fault in those countries, just like I wrote. Big govt, with a ton of useless public workers is a failed policy, both in Europe and in the US.
No, that's not what you said. You started with "screw Spain, screw the Eurozone" and then it went downhill from there. It was an overgeneralization. To quote GregInPrague (addressing someone else's post), "Your simplifications and blanket statements are what make your previous and current posts irrelevant."
Does the EU have more government interference in their economies than the US does? You bet.
But Spain's problems had nothing to do with that. It has to with lousy (private sector) bank lending for inflated real estate, just as in the US in 2008. Their budget deficit was quite low, even though employment in the public sector (as % employed) is higher than in the US (and lower than in Germany, France, or The Netherlands). Ireland has amongst the lowest taxes, is the most business-friendly, and had a budget surplus. Again, the banking sector messed up there (as it did in Iceland too). Italy and Greece (and to some extent, Portugal) are a mess, with wages far outstripping labor productivity, and with serious government deficits/debt. Germany is doing fine, as are Norway, Sweden, and Finland. The Netherlands is doing relatively fine. France is a question mark.
I am not suggesting that you should care one way or another, but people will likely take your posts more seriously (and they deserve to be taken seriously!) if you didn't overgeneralize. That's all.
Your simplifications and blanket statements are what make your previous and current posts irrelevant. In your previous post you lumped Apple in with the bailed out banks simply because they're both publicly traded companies. By the same logic you're just as guilty as President Assad for the atrocities today in Syria because you're both human beings.
America has it's failings to be sure (I'm an American) but living in various EU countries for seven of the last ten years it is abundantly clear that the corruption within and failures of the governments throughout Europe make American businesses and politicians look like philanthropic angels. The unemployment rates in Spain and Greece are so high because they were overly dependent on public sector employment. Instead of making economic conditions good for corporations and small businesses so that they could grow and hire the governments just used debt to hire millions of people to do empty jobs for useless, previously non-existent government agencies. Now that the house of cards is falling in on itself unemployeed people are looking for others to blame, and the politicians who gave them their jobs in the first place are the only ones who share responsibility in addition to themselves.
Apple is paying their proper taxes in Europe, just like they are in the US and the rest of the world. If they weren't they would be in court. People and countries (Australia for example) are dragging Apple in to court every day, for even the most frivolous reasons but there have been no court cases (or even official allegations) to date related to illegal tax dodging.
I am oversimplifying and you are not? Where are you accounting for technology rendering a lot of jobs redundant? Where are you accounting for demographic increases? Where are you accounting for the inherent flaws of capitalism (loosely defined, cause what is or isn't capitalism and what type of capitalism we are loving in now will take ages to go over)? Your take on things is that corrupt government sectors and no incentives for private entrepresise growth. Granted. And agreed but to a small part, certainly not to the extent the usual mythology would have it. Problem is that's only part of the story, the other part is that economies that were doing if not just fine, then managing had to bail out the banks to pay for the bonuses of the speculators who almost bankrupt the world. In the uk the city of London is still untouchable, these guys think they still deserve obscene sums of money while the uk is in a double dip ressesion and the official response from the Tories is they are the best and they have to be paid these sums otherwise they are going to leave the city. If they are so good how the **** then did they almost bring 1920 upon us?
I didn't lump up apple with the banks because they are publicly traded company, I lumped them up because they are an uber rich multinational who can pocket politicians, buy laws and end up paying minimum taxes in the eu via Ireland and Luxembourg. if anyone had the guts (and wasn't too afraid about their lives to be quite frank) from the eu politicians wouldn't they have brought them to task about this? What would apple do then? They d bloody well pay a bit more and still do business in the eu. Why should someone from Spain who buys a song or an app have apple not contribute to the taxes their country is going to use towards pensions, hospitals, roads, etc. etc. and instead have the money siphoned to the bozos at Luxembourg?
No, that's not what you said. You started with "screw Spain, screw the Eurozone" and then it went downhill from there. It was an overgeneralization. To quote GregInPrague (addressing someone else's post), "Your simplifications and blanket statements are what make your previous and current posts irrelevant."
Does the EU have more government interference in their economies than the US does? You bet.
But Spain's problems had nothing to do with that. It has to with lousy (private sector) bank lending for inflated real estate, just as in the US in 2008. Their budget deficit was quite low, even though employment in the public sector (as % employed) is higher than in the US (and lower than in Germany, France, or The Netherlands). Ireland has amongst the lowest taxes, is the most business-friendly, and had a budget surplus. Again, the banking sector messed up there (as it did in Iceland too). Italy and Greece (and to some extent, Portugal) are a mess, with wages far outstripping labor productivity, and with serious government deficits/debt. Germany is doing fine, as are Norway, Sweden, and Finland. The Netherlands is doing relatively fine. France is a question mark.
I am not suggesting that you should care one way or another, but people will likely take your posts more seriously (and they deserve to be taken seriously!) if you didn't overgeneralize. That's all.
Germany is doing just fine because under the threat of collapse to Greece and Spain the rich, or even the just well to do have taken their money out to Germany, to the extent that Germany currently borrows at a minus rate. Things are not so simple. Greece for example is paying about 2-3 times for defence expenses than anyone I'm the eu because of the lack of common borders and being in the forefront of the east, guess who they are buying their weapons from. Some of the most corrupt corporations are German conglomerates who have repeatedly been punished in Germany as well as abroad for shady deals with the northern Europeans. In addition Germany is the biggest beneficiary of the euro since their exports are much more competitive than they would be had they been in the German mark. Other than that you have a fairly accurate take on the situation.
If all of Apple's cash balance was ordered home and taxed at 100%, it'd cover approx. 6/1000th of the US national debt. I won't get into CA state debt, or obligations for the countries where the foreign profits were earned.
I'm NOT defending greed, just saying that governments worldwide have more fundamental problems than institutions not paying enough. It's ugly on both sides.
So if you choose to buy someone's product, that person now owes you something? If someone in Spain choose to buy a song/app from Apple, that individual chose to buy an Apple product of their own free will. Apple doesn't owe the whole of Spain one damn thing! Now it's a different matter if Apple does business in Spain, e.g. having stores in Spain. But even then, I don't blame Apple for working with the system in place. I blame the government for putting the system in place.
Germany is doing just fine because under the threat of collapse to Greece and Spain the rich, or even the just well to do have taken their money out to Germany, to the extent that Germany currently borrows at a minus rate.
Nonsense. This is, at best, a third- or fourth-order reason why they're doing fine. Can you provide any evidence to back up your claim?
When you say borrows at a "minus rate", you're confusing cause and effect. Germany is able to borrow at a low rate because they have the lowest default risk (btw, their borrowing rate in nominal terms is positive, not negative, and it's about the same as the US).
Quote:
Originally Posted by myapplelove
Greece for example is paying about 2-3 times for defence expenses than anyone I'm the eu because of the lack of common borders and being in the forefront of the east, guess who they are buying their weapons from. Some of the most corrupt corporations are German conglomerates who have repeatedly been punished in Germany as well as abroad for shady deals with the northern Europeans.
That's laughable. Who are they protecting themselves against, in the 'east'? Who wants to attack Greece: Cyprus? Macedonia?
Greece's problem is simple: profligate government spending (including defense for reasons completely unclear/unknown, but one can speculate....), Greeks don't pay their taxes, labor productivity is perhaps the lowest in the EU, and the country has no economic base whatsoever other than fishing, tourism, and some restricted, subsidized agriculture (e.g., olives).
Btw, some reports that I have seen say that Greece actually owes German companies a ton of money for past defense purchases.
Quote:
Originally Posted by myapplelove
In addition Germany is the biggest beneficiary of the euro since their exports are much more competitive than they would be had they been in the German mark.
This is, to some extent, true. But so what? Germany has also paid its dues. Quite apart from being the biggest hand helping the former Soviet satellite countries integrate into the Western capitalist world and absorbing the former East Germany, Germany has been the largest source of bailout funds for countries such as Greece, Italy, and Portugal.
If I were a German worker, at this point, I'd want to pull the plug on all this, and let the chips fall where they may. All that is happening now is that the inevitable -- the collapse of the Euro -- is being delayed, and dragging down the rest of the world.
Nope. Socialism has screwed the global economy. 'Blame the banks' is for the most part, just socialist, anti capitalist, spin. Don't sucker for it.
Yeah, those crazy Socialists and all their credit default swaps, derivatives, arbitrage and voodoo mortgages. There should have been real capitalists running things instead. Oh, wait...
... But Spain's problems had nothing to do with that. It has to with lousy (private sector) bank lending for inflated real estate, just as in the US in 2008. Their budget deficit was quite low, even though employment in the public sector (as % employed) is higher than in the US (and lower than in Germany, France, or The Netherlands). Ireland has amongst the lowest taxes, is the most business-friendly, and had a budget surplus. Again, the banking sector messed up there (as it did in Iceland too). Italy and Greece (and to some extent, Portugal) are a mess, with wages far outstripping labor productivity, and with serious government deficits/debt. Germany is doing fine, as are Norway, Sweden, and Finland. The Netherlands is doing relatively fine. France is a question mark.
I am not suggesting that you should care one way or another, but people will likely take your posts more seriously (and they deserve to be taken seriously!) if you didn't overgeneralize. That's all.
Good points. But if you want to engage some of these "Pro Capitalism" fans -- they are more devout in their religion than the Mac or Windows faithful.
I am going to generalize and say that most of the economic problems that "first world" countries are suffering, is being caused by multinational corporations influencing the governments so now they are "all" competing by letting globalists have their way and letting banks horse trade. Profits and economic activity have replaced a notion of prosperity for people and the common good.
Apple's low taxes are getting highlighted right now -- but the criticism is largely ignorant. There are many companies that pay much less tax. No corporation is going to voluntarily raise costs or taxes on itself if it has to compete with companies not doing so -- with Capitalism, you always get the lowest common denominator. The de-regulation absolutism, has lead to unsustainable capitalism, and we don't learn this, because the Media is the largest lobbying organization around. We get political horse races because that's what makes money for the Media. But we don't get feedback on what works and what doesn't because commercial advertising dollars largely guide where the news investigates.
People who truly understand markets recognize the need for regulation -- and to listen to people say; "we shouldn't tax the rich more because that's not fair and will reduce jobs" means you are talking to a person who is too brainwashed to even engage in a discussion on how to solve the problems.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][
"C student" might be a little optimistic. Obama's records have never been released. They're hiding them.
MyAppleLove was referring to W not to Obama. Obama went to Harvard Law, not Yale.
Quote:
Originally Posted by myapplelove
I am sorry to say you don't know what you are talking about. I was very clear and concise in what I said, and I summed up the crux of the political debate in Europe at the moment, with some simplifications and blanket statements of course but I am not here to write diatribes. Whoever gets it, gets it, and should have got it by 2008. Apple isnt goldman, and its not a speculating finance firm, but that does not exclude it from the underegulated global capital category.
If your level of liberalism goes this far you might want to start reading the guardian instead of the nyt and get a clue as to why a lot of people in Europe (as well as the states) refer to your two major political parties in the as the democans and the republicrats, and why socialism is equated with Stalinism in your mainstream political discourse.
And apple should bloody well start paying their proper taxes in Europe instead of solely "maximising" their profit... The poster from Spain was absolutely right. Spain is reaching 20% official unemployment levels, and pretty soon young people might be looting apple stores instead of saving to buy their macs seeing as they don't have jobs, while Tim Cook feels self important talking at Goldman conferences. Apple should choose if they want to keep paying their taxes in Ireland and Luxembourg or pay said share of tax in Spain. The same people who were forewarning about 2008 are warning apple type multinationals right know that they have a choice...
Your simplifications and blanket statements are what make your previous and current posts irrelevant. In your previous post you lumped Apple in with the bailed out banks simply because they're both publicly traded companies. By the same logic you're just as guilty as President Assad for the atrocities today in Syria because you're both human beings.
America has it's failings to be sure (I'm an American) but living in various EU countries for seven of the last ten years it is abundantly clear that the corruption within and failures of the governments throughout Europe make American businesses and politicians look like philanthropic angels. The unemployment rates in Spain and Greece are so high because they were overly dependent on public sector employment. Instead of making economic conditions good for corporations and small businesses so that they could grow and hire the governments just used debt to hire millions of people to do empty jobs for useless, previously non-existent government agencies. Now that the house of cards is falling in on itself unemployeed people are looking for others to blame, and the politicians who gave them their jobs in the first place are the only ones who share responsibility in addition to themselves.
Apple is paying their proper taxes in Europe, just like they are in the US and the rest of the world. If they weren't they would be in court. People and countries (Australia for example) are dragging Apple in to court every day, for even the most frivolous reasons but there have been no court cases (or even official allegations) to date related to illegal tax dodging.
Quote:
Originally Posted by myapplelove
You are either a masochist or banker, publicly traded companies (financial institutions) brought America and Europe to its knees precisely by figuring out elaborate schemes to evade paying their fair share back to societies. The ones that had to bail them out so they could keep enjoying the same level of obscenely large bonuses for their execs.
Apple is no exception here and should certainly not be commended for playing one euro country against the other, pocketing politicians, and figuring out schemes to pay as little as they can back to the Eurozone on the whole.
Nope. Socialism has screwed the global economy. 'Blame the banks' is for the most part, just socialist, anti capitalist, spin. Don't sucker for it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregInPrague
Your simplifications and blanket statements are what make your previous and current posts irrelevant. In your previous post you lumped Apple in with the bailed out banks simply because they're both publicly traded companies. By the same logic you're just as guilty as President Assad for the atrocities today in Syria because you're both human beings.
America has it's failings to be sure (I'm an American) but living in various EU countries for seven of the last ten years it is abundantly clear that the corruption within and failures of the governments throughout Europe make American businesses and politicians look like philanthropic angels. The unemployment rates in Spain and Greece are so high because they were overly dependent on public sector employment. Instead of making economic conditions good for corporations and small businesses so that they could grow and hire the governments just used debt to hire millions of people to do empty jobs for useless, previously non-existent government agencies. Now that the house of cards is falling in on itself unemployeed people are looking for others to blame, and the politicians who gave them their jobs in the first place are the only ones who share responsibility in addition to themselves.
Apple is paying their proper taxes in Europe, just like they are in the US and the rest of the world. If they weren't they would be in court. People and countries (Australia for example) are dragging Apple in to court every day, for even the most frivolous reasons but there have been no court cases (or even official allegations) to date related to illegal tax dodging.
My sentiments exactly.
Succinct, eloquent, true. Thumbs up, +1.
Being a ridiculed Apple user back in the day when everyone who DIDN'T touch a Mac was proud of that fact and felt entitled to comment on which device was better -- I knew that one day, with Steve Jobs back at the helm, Apple would rise again.
But this is absolutely surreal... I couldn't even imagine Microsoft being the PRIME mover of the S&P 500. They even now make stock charts WITH and WITHOUT Apple. They never even did that when GM was on top.
Not sure if this is something to worry about or rejoice about -- all I can say that at least it's not an oil company, insurance company, war contractor, or a financial services company -- at least it's something USEFUL that gets sold.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram
Succinct, eloquent, true. Thumbs up, +1.
You should make up your mind. What he wrote is not much different than what I wrote, except they went into more detail. It is the government's fault in those countries, just like I wrote. Big govt, with a ton of useless public workers is a failed policy, both in Europe and in the US.
Quote:
Originally Posted by monstrosity
Nope. Socialism has screwed the global economy. 'Blame the banks' is for the most part, just socialist, anti capitalist, spin. Don't sucker for it.
Yeah -- pay NO ATTENTION to where the money is going, and ignore the fact that Socialism was alive and well in Europe for decades before the Globalists and "free banking" Cool-Aide was served.
It's easy once you own the press to point the blame -- so as a consumer of media, we all have to be wary that we have to apply LOGIC to what we learn. If banks both have high interest rates, and soak up billions in high-yeild investments -- and then they go belly up and have to be bailed out, and suddenly, all these nations are bankrupt -- then it stands to reason that it was a BIG FLOW OF MONEY OUT OF THE COUNTRY.
How does a "socialist" government job or pension cause money to flow out of a country? If a government is bogged down with waste caring for old people or teachers -- it's still money in people's hands being spent in the country.
THE ONLY WAY a Sovereign state can go "bankrupt" is if it doesn't control it's banks, money flow, and trade policies -- and WHAT group taught everyone that free trade, free banking and being globally competitive with low wages was going to make everything wonderful?
"Anti-Capitalist" -- It used to be called being Prudent. Having Regulations like Glass/Stegal, and having the money printed by the government USED to be how things were done. You've been taught that any time a Billionaire has someone curtailing their power and having oversight on large corporations that's anti-capitalism. So bubbles and collapsing economies is "PRO" Capitalism? Doesn't say much for your adopted religion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][
You should make up your mind. What he wrote is not much different than what I wrote, except they went into more detail. It is the government's fault in those countries, just like I wrote. Big govt, with a ton of useless public workers is a failed policy, both in Europe and in the US.
No, that's not what you said. You started with "screw Spain, screw the Eurozone" and then it went downhill from there. It was an overgeneralization. To quote GregInPrague (addressing someone else's post), "Your simplifications and blanket statements are what make your previous and current posts irrelevant."
Does the EU have more government interference in their economies than the US does? You bet.
But Spain's problems had nothing to do with that. It has to with lousy (private sector) bank lending for inflated real estate, just as in the US in 2008. Their budget deficit was quite low, even though employment in the public sector (as % employed) is higher than in the US (and lower than in Germany, France, or The Netherlands). Ireland has amongst the lowest taxes, is the most business-friendly, and had a budget surplus. Again, the banking sector messed up there (as it did in Iceland too). Italy and Greece (and to some extent, Portugal) are a mess, with wages far outstripping labor productivity, and with serious government deficits/debt. Germany is doing fine, as are Norway, Sweden, and Finland. The Netherlands is doing relatively fine. France is a question mark.
I am not suggesting that you should care one way or another, but people will likely take your posts more seriously (and they deserve to be taken seriously!) if you didn't overgeneralize. That's all.
I am oversimplifying and you are not? Where are you accounting for technology rendering a lot of jobs redundant? Where are you accounting for demographic increases? Where are you accounting for the inherent flaws of capitalism (loosely defined, cause what is or isn't capitalism and what type of capitalism we are loving in now will take ages to go over)? Your take on things is that corrupt government sectors and no incentives for private entrepresise growth. Granted. And agreed but to a small part, certainly not to the extent the usual mythology would have it. Problem is that's only part of the story, the other part is that economies that were doing if not just fine, then managing had to bail out the banks to pay for the bonuses of the speculators who almost bankrupt the world. In the uk the city of London is still untouchable, these guys think they still deserve obscene sums of money while the uk is in a double dip ressesion and the official response from the Tories is they are the best and they have to be paid these sums otherwise they are going to leave the city. If they are so good how the **** then did they almost bring 1920 upon us?
I didn't lump up apple with the banks because they are publicly traded company, I lumped them up because they are an uber rich multinational who can pocket politicians, buy laws and end up paying minimum taxes in the eu via Ireland and Luxembourg. if anyone had the guts (and wasn't too afraid about their lives to be quite frank) from the eu politicians wouldn't they have brought them to task about this? What would apple do then? They d bloody well pay a bit more and still do business in the eu. Why should someone from Spain who buys a song or an app have apple not contribute to the taxes their country is going to use towards pensions, hospitals, roads, etc. etc. and instead have the money siphoned to the bozos at Luxembourg?
Germany is doing just fine because under the threat of collapse to Greece and Spain the rich, or even the just well to do have taken their money out to Germany, to the extent that Germany currently borrows at a minus rate. Things are not so simple. Greece for example is paying about 2-3 times for defence expenses than anyone I'm the eu because of the lack of common borders and being in the forefront of the east, guess who they are buying their weapons from. Some of the most corrupt corporations are German conglomerates who have repeatedly been punished in Germany as well as abroad for shady deals with the northern Europeans. In addition Germany is the biggest beneficiary of the euro since their exports are much more competitive than they would be had they been in the German mark. Other than that you have a fairly accurate take on the situation.
So if you choose to buy someone's product, that person now owes you something? If someone in Spain choose to buy a song/app from Apple, that individual chose to buy an Apple product of their own free will. Apple doesn't owe the whole of Spain one damn thing! Now it's a different matter if Apple does business in Spain, e.g. having stores in Spain. But even then, I don't blame Apple for working with the system in place. I blame the government for putting the system in place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by myapplelove
Germany is doing just fine because under the threat of collapse to Greece and Spain the rich, or even the just well to do have taken their money out to Germany, to the extent that Germany currently borrows at a minus rate.
Nonsense. This is, at best, a third- or fourth-order reason why they're doing fine. Can you provide any evidence to back up your claim?
When you say borrows at a "minus rate", you're confusing cause and effect. Germany is able to borrow at a low rate because they have the lowest default risk (btw, their borrowing rate in nominal terms is positive, not negative, and it's about the same as the US).
Quote:
Originally Posted by myapplelove
Greece for example is paying about 2-3 times for defence expenses than anyone I'm the eu because of the lack of common borders and being in the forefront of the east, guess who they are buying their weapons from. Some of the most corrupt corporations are German conglomerates who have repeatedly been punished in Germany as well as abroad for shady deals with the northern Europeans.
That's laughable. Who are they protecting themselves against, in the 'east'? Who wants to attack Greece: Cyprus? Macedonia?
Greece's problem is simple: profligate government spending (including defense for reasons completely unclear/unknown, but one can speculate....), Greeks don't pay their taxes, labor productivity is perhaps the lowest in the EU, and the country has no economic base whatsoever other than fishing, tourism, and some restricted, subsidized agriculture (e.g., olives).
Btw, some reports that I have seen say that Greece actually owes German companies a ton of money for past defense purchases.
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Originally Posted by myapplelove
In addition Germany is the biggest beneficiary of the euro since their exports are much more competitive than they would be had they been in the German mark.
This is, to some extent, true. But so what? Germany has also paid its dues. Quite apart from being the biggest hand helping the former Soviet satellite countries integrate into the Western capitalist world and absorbing the former East Germany, Germany has been the largest source of bailout funds for countries such as Greece, Italy, and Portugal.
If I were a German worker, at this point, I'd want to pull the plug on all this, and let the chips fall where they may. All that is happening now is that the inevitable -- the collapse of the Euro -- is being delayed, and dragging down the rest of the world.
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Originally Posted by myapplelove
I lumped them [i.e., Apple and others] up because they are an uber rich multinational who can pocket politicians, buy laws ....
That is an absurd claim. If you can't provide evidence to back this up, you should take your trolling elsewhere.
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Originally Posted by monstrosity
Nope. Socialism has screwed the global economy. 'Blame the banks' is for the most part, just socialist, anti capitalist, spin. Don't sucker for it.
Yeah, those crazy Socialists and all their credit default swaps, derivatives, arbitrage and voodoo mortgages. There should have been real capitalists running things instead. Oh, wait...
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Originally Posted by logandigges
No, the most valuable company in the world won't be a big contributer to economic growth. *sarcasm*
No need for Sarcasm -- moving around paper is far more profitable than trading THINGS.
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... But Spain's problems had nothing to do with that. It has to with lousy (private sector) bank lending for inflated real estate, just as in the US in 2008. Their budget deficit was quite low, even though employment in the public sector (as % employed) is higher than in the US (and lower than in Germany, France, or The Netherlands). Ireland has amongst the lowest taxes, is the most business-friendly, and had a budget surplus. Again, the banking sector messed up there (as it did in Iceland too). Italy and Greece (and to some extent, Portugal) are a mess, with wages far outstripping labor productivity, and with serious government deficits/debt. Germany is doing fine, as are Norway, Sweden, and Finland. The Netherlands is doing relatively fine. France is a question mark.
I am not suggesting that you should care one way or another, but people will likely take your posts more seriously (and they deserve to be taken seriously!) if you didn't overgeneralize. That's all.
Good points. But if you want to engage some of these "Pro Capitalism" fans -- they are more devout in their religion than the Mac or Windows faithful.
I am going to generalize and say that most of the economic problems that "first world" countries are suffering, is being caused by multinational corporations influencing the governments so now they are "all" competing by letting globalists have their way and letting banks horse trade. Profits and economic activity have replaced a notion of prosperity for people and the common good.
Apple's low taxes are getting highlighted right now -- but the criticism is largely ignorant. There are many companies that pay much less tax. No corporation is going to voluntarily raise costs or taxes on itself if it has to compete with companies not doing so -- with Capitalism, you always get the lowest common denominator. The de-regulation absolutism, has lead to unsustainable capitalism, and we don't learn this, because the Media is the largest lobbying organization around. We get political horse races because that's what makes money for the Media. But we don't get feedback on what works and what doesn't because commercial advertising dollars largely guide where the news investigates.
People who truly understand markets recognize the need for regulation -- and to listen to people say; "we shouldn't tax the rich more because that's not fair and will reduce jobs" means you are talking to a person who is too brainwashed to even engage in a discussion on how to solve the problems.