The latest report is apparently that DRAM prices will go down in the third quarter of this year. I wonder if Apple will delay the mini based on this or lower cost on BTO options.
The BTO option? They could hold it at 4GB again. 4GB costs nothing, and the machine will boot off it. There is also no reason to suggest that 8GB for $100 should not meet their desired margins. As for 16, Apple only certified it on the rMBP. I don't expect they'll certify it on the mini. We're also in the third quarter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
That I didn't know. By 'decent' do you mean 'a performance improvement over the aforementioned chip'?
Is there not as big a push anymore into GPGPU as there was just a few years ago? Not that OS X takes advantage of it yet, anyway.
Without doing something ridiculous like overclocking, it's entirely possible to push 200+ W on a lot of cards. Stress testing tools can push many of them into the 300-400W realm. AMD's top cards are consistently rated around 190W~ tdp, although their peak loads can be significantly higher without doing anything weird. I can tell you the use of some of the mobile cards, especially the 6970m would not have been for cost reasons. If anything it's a combination of size, power consumption, and heat relative to performance. These things are moving targets anyway. If it becomes harder to sell 200W cards, they'll eventually go away. I've mentioned this before, but many of the workstation cards actually suck up a bit less power until you hit the ones that cost $2000 or more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strat09
If anything I think Apple is working on a wireless charger with built in Bluetooth or Wifi that syncs the iDevices by placing it on top of a pad like square rectangle. If they're smart about it, maybe well see an iPhone without a dock next year. It's too late already... and if they're smarter they'll build the charger on top of the Mac Mini.
At some point I expect to see wires become a thing of the past, at least in consumer grade technology. That is probably decades off, as right now wireless charging is ridiculously inefficient. As to the alignment between a mini and docking type iphone charger, I disagree completely. It's an odd feature to stick on your low end model, and a mini is too expensive to sell specifically as a charger. This is something I see as a novelty concept. The drawings were really really cool though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin
I think there is a push towards heterogeneous computing but GPUs in their current form aren't ideal as they don't share memory. The ideal is to have them on the same chip, which obviously requires an IGP. Some people disagree with this but I don't feel that raw performnce is an issue any more. A desktop GPU offering 40% more performance just doesn't matter when it means significantly compromising the entire form factor. As the CEO of AMD said, every laptop on the planet has enough processing power, meaning the performance race is over. The focus now is design.
The performance race on cpus could have been over a decade ago. Things move to smaller form factors. Interpreted programming languages become practical for a wider range of tasks. Software finds a way to use power overall. I've mentioned some of the various paint programs before (photoshop, manga studio, Painter, etc.). The increase in system power allows them to redraw faster and improve brush sampling rates. These things were much rougher years ago.
Quote:
Every iMac I've ever seen hasn't so where does that leave us?
Either you're not visually observant or you haven't seen many imacs with considerable hours on them? You are using a mini, so it can't be your computer.
Quote:
Total system power is not the GPU power.
Marvin you know this is a ridiculous interpretation of what I said. Even looking at potential gpu power consumption alone you can see the potential for a problem. My point was to indicate that some of these are quite high relative to what is currently supplied and dissipated. If anything it was in agreement with your prior statements.
Quote:
I don't think the resolution matters much for games, or at least games with fully dynamic content. It's more for print quality with static content because printed pages are made at a higher resolution than standard screens. With dynamic games, you get motion blur and anti-aliasing to help the visuals. It doesn't hurt of course and it allows you to disable anti-aliasing but smooth gameplay is more important.
3d Motion blur is ridiculously expensive to render, so it's not always done in excess. I want to see intel raytrace duke nukem next time.
Really? Eh. At any rate, I'm also hoping for "sooner rather than later" on that. I'm mystified myself as to why they haven't already if there wasn't going to be some big upheaval.
I'm really thinking upheaval my self. By this I mean a totally redesigned iMac a nd a redesigned Mini. The only other theory I have is that Intel has vendors on allocation still with Ivy Bridge. The allocation theory is less likely as time moves on, especially with the projected drop in hardware sales for Intel.
Oh! I've found the same to be true on mine (same series), so I guess I'm just flat out wrong about GPGPU benefits. I've not paid much attention to that field recently.
The old laptop of mine is in rough shape with a damaged screen, I've been resisting going out and buying a machine this year, more from stubbornness and thrift than anything. At this moment in time though I won't buy a machine with out a discrete GPU for my primary machine. I just think it makes for hardware that ages too fast.
As too GPGPU, in the past I could find files that linked to the OpenCL lib which kinda indicated that Apple did use the GPU for GPU compute of some sort. A quick look the other day turned up nothing so in that regard I could be wrong or simply didn't look at the right file. However in developer circles there has been lots of talk about Apples expanded use of the GPU, that could be traditional use though.
As to the iMac, it seems to me that they'll only be using more special parts than ever before. Dropping the ODD would hopefully give us the option of two HDDs+SSD or three SSDs, but I'm not getting my hopes up. And don't be surprised at all if they try to get away with soldered RAM on the new one.
I'm not bothered by soldered RAM if they provide expansion slots for those that need such. As to a SSD I do wish there was a standard PCI Express slot that everybody could start making use of. There are already to many card standards for SSD, none of which are impressive.
"The R7970 has a maximum power consumption of roughly 210 Watts, our measurements actually show numbers below that value. The boards overall power consumption from idle to load is excellent really.
System in IDLE = 166W
System Wattage with GPU in FULL Stress = 567W
Difference (GPU load) = 401W
Add average IDLE wattage ~6W
Subjective obtained GPU power consumption = ~ 407 Watts = 204W per GPU."
There are about 30 GPUs tested there running at maximum load, none of which exceed their TDP ratings.
Either you're not visually observant or you haven't seen many imacs with considerable hours on them? You are using a mini, so it can't be your computer.
I only use a Mini at home, I use all sorts of Macs (including iMacs) under long periods of stressful tasks and I've never seen them fail or become defective. I even used to burn iBooks/Powerbooks for hours overnight and they served well for years. I know you want to believe that small form factors are not capable of stressful computing but it's just not true. Where exactly have you seen these defective iMacs you talk about? You said you used a Linux box so are these stories you've heard/read?
The performance race on cpus could have been over a decade ago. Things move to smaller form factors.
No it couldn't have. 10 years ago the fastest desktops had dual 1.25GHz G4s. No matter how big a box you make, that wasn't fast enough. Only the Core-i series has been fast enough.
As too GPGPU, in the past I could find files that linked to the OpenCL lib which kinda indicated that Apple did use the GPU for GPU compute of some sort. A quick look the other day turned up nothing so in that regard I could be wrong or simply didn't look at the right file.
And on top of the next iMac Mini should be an iPhone dock charger/ Syncer so users can place their iPhones to charge without the need of cables and an aluminum lid covers it while it isn't in use.
I had a similar idea for a mid range desktop Mac. One or two docks on top for charging iPods and iPhones. My family is constantly charging their phones all over the house and leaving the charger plugged in. And of course they can't remember where they last used it so they can't find it. I also thought it would be nice to have built in speakers that could be used by the docked devices even if the computer isn't turned on.
Apple could keep the current mini design for the next several years and I would be happy. I doubt they are going that direction though who knows.
It isn't a bad design at all but it doesn't provide the sort of performance I really want out of a desktop PC. I just wish they had a mid level performance machine that isn't an iMac.
Which makes the Mini great for lots of things. It is a little box that can be embedded anywhere without huge thermal issues. The problem of course is that those laptop parts means that performance per dollar currently sucks. More importantly ultimate performance is generally lagging what could be had in a desktop box that was simply bigger.
And while the rMBP is great and all, I don't like the whole lottery thing that is still going on with Apple with regards to the screens (LG vs. Samsung) and SSDs (Toshiba vs. Samsung).
And while the rMBP is great and all, I don't like the whole lottery thing that is still going on with Apple with regards to the screens (LG vs. Samsung) and SSDs (Toshiba vs. Samsung).
Yes the lottery thing does suck. However when you get to the volumes Apples has single suppliers become a big no no. Second sources are very important in the electronics industry to prevent all eggs in one basket problem. Even an industry concentration in one geographic area can be a problem as we recently seen with hard drives. With semiconductor manufacturing and like wise LCDs, it really doesn't take much to interrupt a plants production.
At least now with SSDs there isn't such a huge performance gap between the two suppliers. In past AIR models the performance difference was noticeable by users, I don't think that is a "real" problem anymore. It should be noted that this was and is a problem with hard drives too.
Frankly I'm hoping I wake up Tuesday to a silent update to the Mini and iMac that take SSDs seriously. Using the same old blade type module in the Mini, to leave room for hard drives would be very compelling. Here I mean the retina's blade SSD design. Wishful thinking I know!!!!!
Understandable on the "all your eggs in one basket" deal though perhaps they need to do a bit of better quality control on LG perhaps given the price of the rMBP. I definitely agree with the blade SSD thing deal.
Understandable on the "all your eggs in one basket" deal though perhaps they need to do a bit of better quality control on LG perhaps given the price of the rMBP. I definitely agree with the blade SSD thing deal.
LG has never been the greatest. It's just that they are the largest IPS panel manufacturer by a very wide margin now. I think Panasonic makes some for televisions as well. Hitachi actually pioneered it. They did an amazing job, but they no longer produce them. Arguably some of the best lcd displays ever made used Hitachi and Mitsubishi panels.
Mitsubishi is a brand I feel I can trust due to their cars.
They've had a lot of involvement in electronics. NEC-Mitsubishi diamondtrons were excellent, of course that was quite a few years ago. CRTs actually held on longer in markets where display quality was a factor. Part of this was that a top quality lcd a few years ago was extremely expensive. While they've come down in price, the build quality has also declined, and most displays in the sub $5k realm are using LG panels.
Well we got some really nice iOS device updates but still no news on the Mini, not even a bad rumor. Sad really because the Mini just cries out for an Ivy Bridge update. Maybe instead of a wish list we just need to wish for Apple to get off the pot and ship something.
Well we got some really nice iOS device updates but still no news on the Mini, not even a bad rumor. Sad really because the Mini just cries out for an Ivy Bridge update. Maybe instead of a wish list we just need to wish for Apple to get off the pot and ship something.
Given how accurate the iPhone 5 leaks were, the iPad Mini could be the real deal:
It's unfortunate that they might hold back computer updates for such a launch event. A 13" rMBP would be nice to see too but each product should stand on its own. The Mini could have been updated ages ago.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winter
The latest report is apparently that DRAM prices will go down in the third quarter of this year. I wonder if Apple will delay the mini based on this or lower cost on BTO options.
The BTO option? They could hold it at 4GB again. 4GB costs nothing, and the machine will boot off it. There is also no reason to suggest that 8GB for $100 should not meet their desired margins. As for 16, Apple only certified it on the rMBP. I don't expect they'll certify it on the mini. We're also in the third quarter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
That I didn't know. By 'decent' do you mean 'a performance improvement over the aforementioned chip'?
Is there not as big a push anymore into GPGPU as there was just a few years ago? Not that OS X takes advantage of it yet, anyway.
Without doing something ridiculous like overclocking, it's entirely possible to push 200+ W on a lot of cards. Stress testing tools can push many of them into the 300-400W realm. AMD's top cards are consistently rated around 190W~ tdp, although their peak loads can be significantly higher without doing anything weird. I can tell you the use of some of the mobile cards, especially the 6970m would not have been for cost reasons. If anything it's a combination of size, power consumption, and heat relative to performance. These things are moving targets anyway. If it becomes harder to sell 200W cards, they'll eventually go away. I've mentioned this before, but many of the workstation cards actually suck up a bit less power until you hit the ones that cost $2000 or more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strat09
If anything I think Apple is working on a wireless charger with built in Bluetooth or Wifi that syncs the iDevices by placing it on top of a pad like square rectangle. If they're smart about it, maybe well see an iPhone without a dock next year. It's too late already... and if they're smarter they'll build the charger on top of the Mac Mini.
At some point I expect to see wires become a thing of the past, at least in consumer grade technology. That is probably decades off, as right now wireless charging is ridiculously inefficient. As to the alignment between a mini and docking type iphone charger, I disagree completely. It's an odd feature to stick on your low end model, and a mini is too expensive to sell specifically as a charger. This is something I see as a novelty concept. The drawings were really really cool though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin
I think there is a push towards heterogeneous computing but GPUs in their current form aren't ideal as they don't share memory. The ideal is to have them on the same chip, which obviously requires an IGP. Some people disagree with this but I don't feel that raw performnce is an issue any more. A desktop GPU offering 40% more performance just doesn't matter when it means significantly compromising the entire form factor. As the CEO of AMD said, every laptop on the planet has enough processing power, meaning the performance race is over. The focus now is design.
The performance race on cpus could have been over a decade ago. Things move to smaller form factors. Interpreted programming languages become practical for a wider range of tasks. Software finds a way to use power overall. I've mentioned some of the various paint programs before (photoshop, manga studio, Painter, etc.). The increase in system power allows them to redraw faster and improve brush sampling rates. These things were much rougher years ago.
Quote:
Every iMac I've ever seen hasn't so where does that leave us?
Either you're not visually observant or you haven't seen many imacs with considerable hours on them? You are using a mini, so it can't be your computer.
Quote:
Total system power is not the GPU power.
Marvin you know this is a ridiculous interpretation of what I said. Even looking at potential gpu power consumption alone you can see the potential for a problem. My point was to indicate that some of these are quite high relative to what is currently supplied and dissipated. If anything it was in agreement with your prior statements.
Quote:
I don't think the resolution matters much for games, or at least games with fully dynamic content. It's more for print quality with static content because printed pages are made at a higher resolution than standard screens. With dynamic games, you get motion blur and anti-aliasing to help the visuals. It doesn't hurt of course and it allows you to disable anti-aliasing but smooth gameplay is more important.
3d Motion blur is ridiculously expensive to render, so it's not always done in excess. I want to see intel raytrace duke nukem next time.
As too GPGPU, in the past I could find files that linked to the OpenCL lib which kinda indicated that Apple did use the GPU for GPU compute of some sort. A quick look the other day turned up nothing so in that regard I could be wrong or simply didn't look at the right file. However in developer circles there has been lots of talk about Apples expanded use of the GPU, that could be traditional use though. I'm not bothered by soldered RAM if they provide expansion slots for those that need such. As to a SSD I do wish there was a standard PCI Express slot that everybody could start making use of. There are already to many card standards for SSD, none of which are impressive.
Gotta go!
Rubbish:
http://www.guru3d.com/article/radeon-hd-7970-crossfire-review/6
http://www.guru3d.com/article/radeon-hd-7970-crossfire-review/7
AMD's fastest card:
"The R7970 has a maximum power consumption of roughly 210 Watts, our measurements actually show numbers below that value. The boards overall power consumption from idle to load is excellent really.
System in IDLE = 166W
System Wattage with GPU in FULL Stress = 567W
Difference (GPU load) = 401W
Add average IDLE wattage ~6W
Subjective obtained GPU power consumption = ~ 407 Watts = 204W per GPU."
There are about 30 GPUs tested there running at maximum load, none of which exceed their TDP ratings.
I only use a Mini at home, I use all sorts of Macs (including iMacs) under long periods of stressful tasks and I've never seen them fail or become defective. I even used to burn iBooks/Powerbooks for hours overnight and they served well for years. I know you want to believe that small form factors are not capable of stressful computing but it's just not true. Where exactly have you seen these defective iMacs you talk about? You said you used a Linux box so are these stories you've heard/read?
No it couldn't have. 10 years ago the fastest desktops had dual 1.25GHz G4s. No matter how big a box you make, that wasn't fast enough. Only the Core-i series has been fast enough.
FCPX has GPU-accelerated export:
https://discussions.apple.com/thread/3337557?start=0&tstart=0
It also shares the render engine with Motion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strat09
And on top of the next iMac Mini should be an iPhone dock charger/ Syncer so users can place their iPhones to charge without the need of cables and an aluminum lid covers it while it isn't in use.
I had a similar idea for a mid range desktop Mac. One or two docks on top for charging iPods and iPhones. My family is constantly charging their phones all over the house and leaving the charger plugged in. And of course they can't remember where they last used it so they can't find it. I also thought it would be nice to have built in speakers that could be used by the docked devices even if the computer isn't turned on.
It isn't a bad design at all but it doesn't provide the sort of performance I really want out of a desktop PC. I just wish they had a mid level performance machine that isn't an iMac.
Which makes the Mini great for lots of things. It is a little box that can be embedded anywhere without huge thermal issues. The problem of course is that those laptop parts means that performance per dollar currently sucks. More importantly ultimate performance is generally lagging what could be had in a desktop box that was simply bigger.
Yes the lottery thing does suck. However when you get to the volumes Apples has single suppliers become a big no no. Second sources are very important in the electronics industry to prevent all eggs in one basket problem. Even an industry concentration in one geographic area can be a problem as we recently seen with hard drives. With semiconductor manufacturing and like wise LCDs, it really doesn't take much to interrupt a plants production.
At least now with SSDs there isn't such a huge performance gap between the two suppliers. In past AIR models the performance difference was noticeable by users, I don't think that is a "real" problem anymore. It should be noted that this was and is a problem with hard drives too.
Frankly I'm hoping I wake up Tuesday to a silent update to the Mini and iMac that take SSDs seriously. Using the same old blade type module in the Mini, to leave room for hard drives would be very compelling. Here I mean the retina's blade SSD design. Wishful thinking I know!!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winter
Understandable on the "all your eggs in one basket" deal though perhaps they need to do a bit of better quality control on LG perhaps given the price of the rMBP. I definitely agree with the blade SSD thing deal.
LG has never been the greatest. It's just that they are the largest IPS panel manufacturer by a very wide margin now. I think Panasonic makes some for televisions as well. Hitachi actually pioneered it. They did an amazing job, but they no longer produce them. Arguably some of the best lcd displays ever made used Hitachi and Mitsubishi panels.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winter
Mitsubishi is a brand I feel I can trust due to their cars.
They've had a lot of involvement in electronics. NEC-Mitsubishi diamondtrons were excellent, of course that was quite a few years ago. CRTs actually held on longer in markets where display quality was a factor. Part of this was that a top quality lcd a few years ago was extremely expensive. While they've come down in price, the build quality has also declined, and most displays in the sub $5k realm are using LG panels.
Originally Posted by wizard69
Well we got some really nice iOS device updates but still no news on the Mini, not even a bad rumor.
There were never going to be Mac updates at the iPhone event…
Given how accurate the iPhone 5 leaks were, the iPad Mini could be the real deal:
http://allthingsd.com/20120825/confirmed-new-ipad-mini-will-debut-in-october-after-latest-iphones-september-bow/
It's unfortunate that they might hold back computer updates for such a launch event. A 13" rMBP would be nice to see too but each product should stand on its own. The Mini could have been updated ages ago.
How dare you say something that! Why can't I put you on ignore? Blah blah blah, etc.
Truth is, you're right though that didn't stop me and a few others for having a small glimmer of hope.