No, but that kind of article (lies) is affecting Apple.
I stopped reading after the first few paragraphs. Whoever authored that piece has no idea. There are many factors driving Apples problems back then and the weak successive leadership didn't help any. Hopefully not many are gullible enough to take that article as a rational evaluation of what Apple went through.
Any updated rumors that we can use to revive this thread?
I wish. But without a case redesign or any expectation of port changes (maybe two Thunderbolt?), all we have to debate is whether they'll use Ivy Bridge or wait until Haswell, since there's no reason for the Mac Mini to have not received an update at this point except that Apple doesn't want it to have newer processors than the iMac.
And then that gets us talking about why the iMac wasn't updated when it should have been. We know it's dropping the ODD, so that either means it's slightly thinner or it's a completely new design. I'm gunning for the latter, not for the sake of having a new design, and not because the current one is roughly eight (five) years old, but because I want to see Apple again wow us both with design and engineering, cramming more power in there than we'd ever imagine.
I don't think retina for that, but who knows. Just wish Haswell was ready NOW.
Yeah I am looking forward to Haswell myself though since Intel has revealed a few bits and pieces on things to look forward to, it's enough to hold me over.
Apple goes too far on secrecy imho. They need to say (and I know others will disagree) that such might be ready down the road or we're looking at this for a projected date down the road (and actually have done so in the past). Neglecting product lines makes people look elsewhere especially if other options become available.
Same here. But I'm not springing for an iPad until Apple comes out with the desktop that meets my needs.
That is too bad. Seriously iPad has been one of the best investments I've ever made. I'd buy another without thinking about it. We could wait for ever for Apple to rationalize its desktop line up. In my case the laptop is now left of the desk for the most part.
Yeah I am looking forward to Haswell myself though since Intel has revealed a few bits and pieces on things to look forward to, it's enough to hold me over.
Both Ivy Bridge and Haswell will be major upgrades for the Mini or whatever replaces it. The cooler operation coupled with USB 3 and serviceable graphics means the machine will be supporting a wider user base.
Apple goes too far on secrecy imho. They need to say (and I know others will disagree) that such might be ready down the road or we're looking at this for a projected date down the road (and actually have done so in the past).
That would result in the Osborne effect. Frankly even a company Apples size can't withstand sales dropping off the cliff while people wait for announced hardware.
Neglecting product lines makes people look elsewhere especially if other options become available.
Neglect is the right concept here and is specific to the desktop lineup. The laptops get all the attention in the world. Frankly I'm not sure if Apple is even aware of the impact this neglect has on sales. I suspect it is more significant than they might imagine. As you note people end up seeking other options.
Well because of USB 3, then yes IB will be a good boost but not on processor speed alone. I feel as a buyer, I do not need to pick up a new Mini until Haswell. That said, I don't want them to not release a new model.
That would result in the Osborne effect. Frankly even a company Apples size can't withstand sales dropping off the cliff while people wait for announced hardware.
They frigging did it with the Mac Pro instead of shutting up and just pushing a Sandy Bridge update! I STILL don't understand why they'd do that unless they plan a total redesign and redefinition of what the Mac Pro is.
Well because of USB 3, then yes IB will be a good boost but not on processor speed alone. I feel as a buyer, I do not need to pick up a new Mini until Haswell. That said, I don't want them to not release a new model.
As stated before I'm trying to hold off buying any Mac well into 2013. At the rate Apple is going though it could be 2014 before we see a Haswell based Mini and that is if Mini survives.
They need to do something fairly soon with the desktop line up. I've already have advised people not to upgrade or buy Apple desktops this year. The reality is they are extremely dated for what should be a premium hardware purchase.
They frigging did it with the Mac Pro instead of shutting up and just pushing a Sandy Bridge update!
I'm really shocked at just how stupid Apple has been with the Mac Pro. However in the case of the Mac Pro I suspect that sales have been so bad and the response to the last "update" so heated that it doesn't matter. At the very least they should have thrown a few bones to the customer base including an updated GPU card.
I hate to say it but Apples actions with respect to the Mac Pro can best be described as stupid! I know I've used "stupid" here several times now but generally that is how you refer to people that shoot themselves in the foot. Apple has done more to drive away Mac Pro customers than to capture new ones.
I STILL don't understand why they'd do that unless they plan a total redesign and redefinition of what the Mac Pro is.
BINGO
I think you are on to something. I suspect an entirely new architecture built around Xeon Phi and similar hardware. It should be very interesting come November / December when Intel is rumored to release this hardware. The potential is huge in a Mac Pro replacement even if software will lag.
I actually see the same thing happening with the Mini, that will morph into a more general purpose platform as the Mac Pro replacement becomes sort of a desktop super computer.
Then again Apple has consistently disappointed me with respect to the desktop since well before 2008 so they could build more Mac desktop crap. Frankly it must be embarrassing to be a engineer at Apple designing desktop hardware. At times desktop hardware has been lagging the laptops by a year or more hardware feature wise.
At the very least they should have thrown a few bones to the customer base including an updated GPU card.
I KNOW. Give us the 6xxx series now and pop the 7xxx series in the new ones!
What do you bet that they'll really screw the pooch and even with whatever improvements they do to the 2013 model, it's STILL just the 6xxx series?! I mean, flashed 6980s work in the Mac Pro now, sure, so that would be even more embarrassing…
Frankly it must be embarrassing to be a engineer at Apple designing desktop hardware.
I would hope, though obviously can't confirm, that the only thing about which they're embarrassed is misguided (read: iPhone, iPad, and screw everything else) executive decisions stifling their potential creativity in making a powerful, beautiful machine.
I suspect an entirely new architecture built around Xeon Phi and similar hardware. It should be very interesting come November / December when Intel is rumored to release this hardware.
They claim quite a lot of performance from a really cheap CPU. Although x86 is an advantage with the Xeon, Apple has a full SDK for iOS and ARM and they can make their own chips whenever they like and manage costs better.
The ARM cores in the iPhone are tiny and they must run on less than 2W at full load for dual 1.3GHz:
I wonder what 50 of those cores would be capable of. They can probably manufacture a chip like that for under $500. It could possibly even go in an iMac.
Frankly it must be embarrassing to be a engineer at Apple designing desktop hardware. At times desktop hardware has been lagging the laptops by a year or more hardware feature wise.
Nobody is paying attention to desktops these days. The latest desktop releases go by unnoticed on tech blogs. It's not just Apple doing it.
It's simple supply and demand - focus your supply on where there's demand. That's no longer the desktops because they aren't interesting to consumers any more. A 13" Retina MBP by contrast would sell extremely well, probably more so than the 15" model.
Tim Cook confirmed the next MP update won't arrive until late 2013 so no point in considering that for now. The iMac, Mini and 13" rMBP should be any time now. They tend not to leave things late in the year so October is a pretty sure bet and I think we'll hear about a press event shortly.
They claim quite a lot of performance from a really cheap CPU. Although x86 is an advantage with the Xeon, Apple has a full SDK for iOS and ARM and they can make their own chips whenever they like and manage costs better.
The ARM cores in the iPhone are tiny and they must run on less than 2W at full load for dual 1.3GHz:
I wonder what 50 of those cores would be capable of. They can probably manufacture a chip like that for under $500. It could possibly even go in an iMac.
Nobody is paying attention to desktops these days. The latest desktop releases go by unnoticed on tech blogs. It's not just Apple doing it.
It's simple supply and demand - focus your supply on where there's demand. That's no longer the desktops because they aren't interesting to consumers any more. A 13" Retina MBP by contrast would sell extremely well, probably more so than the 15" model.
Tim Cook confirmed the next MP update won't arrive until late 2013 so no point in considering that for now. The iMac, Mini and 13" rMBP should be any time now. They tend not to leave things late in the year so October is a pretty sure bet and I think we'll hear about a press event shortly.
50 cores...interesting, but not very useful, at least not at the present time. There is no software optimized for it and even though the video shows Ubuntu running why would you want to leave OS X? That said, Intel has "many-core" CPUs in the hands of select customers who have the capability and interest in developing OS and application optimizations for such things. It definitely is not a consumer piece.
If Canonical is to ever succeed in their stated goal of equaling the OS X user experience, they need to stick to mainstream hardware that the software developers will support. You can say all you want about GIMP, but it is not Photoshop, Lightroom or any of the many plug-ins for them that are available for the Mac or Windows platform. Adobe has only recently begun to make use of the current generation of multi-core CPUs and, to a lesser extent, GPUs.
When Haswell debuts next year we will see what gains Intel have made in reducing power consumption. There is also some discussion that Haswell may be capable of simultaneously running different OSes on different cores of the same CPU. (I am aware of software on the Win platform capable of assigning different cores to different applications though I am not up-to-date on such developments on the Mac platform.) It could be interesting.
That piece was interesting but the problem is floating point performance is only significant for certain apps. A responsive system needs a snappy integer processor with a good GPU these days. At least in the case of Linux, systems running on ARM hardware are at best sluggish.
Although x86 is an advantage with the Xeon, Apple has a full SDK for iOS and ARM and they can make their own chips whenever they like and manage costs better.
While I don't see Apple doing it, getting A6 type CPUs to run at 2+ GHz with the right support hardware would make for an interesting Mini. Put a dozen in a Mini and I'm not too sure many would complain.
The ARM cores in the iPhone are tiny and they must run on less than 2W at full load for dual 1.3GHz:
The cores themselves probably are well under 500 milliwatts each. Infact I seem to remember at least one foundry testing out 28nm that indicated they had Cortex A9 cores running at 250 milliwatts. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that the entire chip, that is Apples A6, is running at 2-3 watts with all units in operation.
Costs = area so they might be very successful with a large number of cores. However the big issue with lots of cores on die is communications. That will actuall take up lots of space and power.
Nobody is paying attention to desktops these days. The latest desktop releases go by unnoticed on tech blogs. It's not just Apple doing it.
True the consummer in general is focused on other devices, but that is no excuse.
It's simple supply and demand - focus your supply on where there's demand. That's no longer the desktops because they aren't interesting to consumers any more. A 13" Retina MBP by contrast would sell extremely well, probably more so than the 15" model.
I understand this but frankly it doesn't justify a company like Apple ignoring the market. They do have the resources to do desktops right.
Tim Cook confirmed the next MP update won't arrive until late 2013 so no point in considering that for now.
Yeah I know but that doesn't explain the iMac and the Mini.
[/Quote]
The iMac, Mini and 13" rMBP should be any time now. They tend not to leave things late in the year so October is a pretty sure bet and I think we'll hear about a press event shortly.[/quote]
Ok, but I have to ask where is the leaks, rumors and other nonsense that would suggest a October release? I think this is what frustrates many, there isn't even a hint of new desktops anytime soon.
I KNOW. Give us the 6xxx series now and pop the 7xxx series in the new ones!
This does boggle the mind. It is possibly the most asinine thing they have done in awhile.
What do you bet that they'll really screw the pooch and even with whatever improvements they do to the 2013 model, it's STILL just the 6xxx series?! I mean, flashed 6980s work in the Mac Pro now, sure, so that would be even more embarrassing…
If the 2013 solution isn't a major overhaul, that sets the "Pro" up for another 5 or more years, then I really will be thinking that Apple has lost their way.
I would hope, though obviously can't confirm, that the only thing about which they're embarrassed is misguided (read: iPhone, iPad, and screw everything else) executive decisions stifling their potential creativity in making a powerful, beautiful machine.
It really has to suck. I mean really these guys are tech heads and likely want to ship respectable hardware. Right now there really is nothing respectable for the desktop.
50 cores...interesting, but not very useful, at least not at the present time. There is no software optimized for it and even though the video shows Ubuntu running why would you want to leave OS X?
There is a lot of interesting hardware out there. However I can't see Apple leaving i86 on the Macs. That compatibility is a huge advantage.
It would just be a co-processor, it wouldn't have to run an OS although it could easily run iOS and be controlled from OS X. You'd have a Xeon chip and some multi-core ARM co-processor, could be 25-core 2GHz. Software that doesn't use a GUI like graphics rendering engines can be compiled against it and run in parallel. This kind of software can easily use every core:
It would need to be 64-bit and share the memory with the main CPU.
Comments
I stopped reading after the first few paragraphs. Whoever authored that piece has no idea. There are many factors driving Apples problems back then and the weak successive leadership didn't help any. Hopefully not many are gullible enough to take that article as a rational evaluation of what Apple went through.
Originally Posted by Winter
Any updated rumors that we can use to revive this thread?
I wish. But without a case redesign or any expectation of port changes (maybe two Thunderbolt?), all we have to debate is whether they'll use Ivy Bridge or wait until Haswell, since there's no reason for the Mac Mini to have not received an update at this point except that Apple doesn't want it to have newer processors than the iMac.
And then that gets us talking about why the iMac wasn't updated when it should have been. We know it's dropping the ODD, so that either means it's slightly thinner or it's a completely new design. I'm gunning for the latter, not for the sake of having a new design, and not because the current one is roughly eight (five) years old, but because I want to see Apple again wow us both with design and engineering, cramming more power in there than we'd ever imagine.
I don't think retina for that, but who knows. Just wish Haswell was ready NOW.
Apple goes too far on secrecy imho. They need to say (and I know others will disagree) that such might be ready down the road or we're looking at this for a projected date down the road (and actually have done so in the past). Neglecting product lines makes people look elsewhere especially if other options become available.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69
I'm not too sure about that! Lately I've been of the mind set that an iPad along with a desktop is a far better arrangement for my needs.
Same here. But I'm not springing for an iPad until Apple comes out with the desktop that meets my needs.
That is too bad. Seriously iPad has been one of the best investments I've ever made. I'd buy another without thinking about it. We could wait for ever for Apple to rationalize its desktop line up. In my case the laptop is now left of the desk for the most part.
Neglect is the right concept here and is specific to the desktop lineup. The laptops get all the attention in the world. Frankly I'm not sure if Apple is even aware of the impact this neglect has on sales. I suspect it is more significant than they might imagine. As you note people end up seeking other options.
Originally Posted by wizard69
That would result in the Osborne effect. Frankly even a company Apples size can't withstand sales dropping off the cliff while people wait for announced hardware.
They frigging did it with the Mac Pro instead of shutting up and just pushing a Sandy Bridge update! I STILL don't understand why they'd do that unless they plan a total redesign and redefinition of what the Mac Pro is.
As stated before I'm trying to hold off buying any Mac well into 2013. At the rate Apple is going though it could be 2014 before we see a Haswell based Mini and that is if Mini survives.
They need to do something fairly soon with the desktop line up. I've already have advised people not to upgrade or buy Apple desktops this year. The reality is they are extremely dated for what should be a premium hardware purchase.
I hate to say it but Apples actions with respect to the Mac Pro can best be described as stupid! I know I've used "stupid" here several times now but generally that is how you refer to people that shoot themselves in the foot. Apple has done more to drive away Mac Pro customers than to capture new ones.
BINGO
I think you are on to something. I suspect an entirely new architecture built around Xeon Phi and similar hardware. It should be very interesting come November / December when Intel is rumored to release this hardware. The potential is huge in a Mac Pro replacement even if software will lag.
I actually see the same thing happening with the Mini, that will morph into a more general purpose platform as the Mac Pro replacement becomes sort of a desktop super computer.
Then again Apple has consistently disappointed me with respect to the desktop since well before 2008 so they could build more Mac desktop crap. Frankly it must be embarrassing to be a engineer at Apple designing desktop hardware. At times desktop hardware has been lagging the laptops by a year or more hardware feature wise.
Originally Posted by wizard69
At the very least they should have thrown a few bones to the customer base including an updated GPU card.
I KNOW. Give us the 6xxx series now and pop the 7xxx series in the new ones!
What do you bet that they'll really screw the pooch and even with whatever improvements they do to the 2013 model, it's STILL just the 6xxx series?! I mean, flashed 6980s work in the Mac Pro now, sure, so that would be even more embarrassing…
Frankly it must be embarrassing to be a engineer at Apple designing desktop hardware.
I would hope, though obviously can't confirm, that the only thing about which they're embarrassed is misguided (read: iPhone, iPad, and screw everything else) executive decisions stifling their potential creativity in making a powerful, beautiful machine.
The Parallella hardware is interesting:
http://www.bit-tech.net/news/hardware/2012/09/28/adapteva-parallella/1
They claim quite a lot of performance from a really cheap CPU. Although x86 is an advantage with the Xeon, Apple has a full SDK for iOS and ARM and they can make their own chips whenever they like and manage costs better.
The ARM cores in the iPhone are tiny and they must run on less than 2W at full load for dual 1.3GHz:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6323/apple-a6-die-revealed-3core-gpu-100mm2
I wonder what 50 of those cores would be capable of. They can probably manufacture a chip like that for under $500. It could possibly even go in an iMac.
Nobody is paying attention to desktops these days. The latest desktop releases go by unnoticed on tech blogs. It's not just Apple doing it.
It's simple supply and demand - focus your supply on where there's demand. That's no longer the desktops because they aren't interesting to consumers any more. A 13" Retina MBP by contrast would sell extremely well, probably more so than the 15" model.
Tim Cook confirmed the next MP update won't arrive until late 2013 so no point in considering that for now. The iMac, Mini and 13" rMBP should be any time now. They tend not to leave things late in the year so October is a pretty sure bet and I think we'll hear about a press event shortly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin
The Parallella hardware is interesting:
http://www.bit-tech.net/news/hardware/2012/09/28/adapteva-parallella/1
They claim quite a lot of performance from a really cheap CPU. Although x86 is an advantage with the Xeon, Apple has a full SDK for iOS and ARM and they can make their own chips whenever they like and manage costs better.
The ARM cores in the iPhone are tiny and they must run on less than 2W at full load for dual 1.3GHz:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6323/apple-a6-die-revealed-3core-gpu-100mm2
I wonder what 50 of those cores would be capable of. They can probably manufacture a chip like that for under $500. It could possibly even go in an iMac.
Nobody is paying attention to desktops these days. The latest desktop releases go by unnoticed on tech blogs. It's not just Apple doing it.
It's simple supply and demand - focus your supply on where there's demand. That's no longer the desktops because they aren't interesting to consumers any more. A 13" Retina MBP by contrast would sell extremely well, probably more so than the 15" model.
Tim Cook confirmed the next MP update won't arrive until late 2013 so no point in considering that for now. The iMac, Mini and 13" rMBP should be any time now. They tend not to leave things late in the year so October is a pretty sure bet and I think we'll hear about a press event shortly.
50 cores...interesting, but not very useful, at least not at the present time. There is no software optimized for it and even though the video shows Ubuntu running why would you want to leave OS X? That said, Intel has "many-core" CPUs in the hands of select customers who have the capability and interest in developing OS and application optimizations for such things. It definitely is not a consumer piece.
If Canonical is to ever succeed in their stated goal of equaling the OS X user experience, they need to stick to mainstream hardware that the software developers will support. You can say all you want about GIMP, but it is not Photoshop, Lightroom or any of the many plug-ins for them that are available for the Mac or Windows platform. Adobe has only recently begun to make use of the current generation of multi-core CPUs and, to a lesser extent, GPUs.
When Haswell debuts next year we will see what gains Intel have made in reducing power consumption. There is also some discussion that Haswell may be capable of simultaneously running different OSes on different cores of the same CPU. (I am aware of software on the Win platform capable of assigning different cores to different applications though I am not up-to-date on such developments on the Mac platform.) It could be interesting.
That piece was interesting but the problem is floating point performance is only significant for certain apps. A responsive system needs a snappy integer processor with a good GPU these days. At least in the case of Linux, systems running on ARM hardware are at best sluggish. While I don't see Apple doing it, getting A6 type CPUs to run at 2+ GHz with the right support hardware would make for an interesting Mini. Put a dozen in a Mini and I'm not too sure many would complain. The cores themselves probably are well under 500 milliwatts each. Infact I seem to remember at least one foundry testing out 28nm that indicated they had Cortex A9 cores running at 250 milliwatts. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that the entire chip, that is Apples A6, is running at 2-3 watts with all units in operation. Costs = area so they might be very successful with a large number of cores. However the big issue with lots of cores on die is communications. That will actuall take up lots of space and power. True the consummer in general is focused on other devices, but that is no excuse. I understand this but frankly it doesn't justify a company like Apple ignoring the market. They do have the resources to do desktops right. Yeah I know but that doesn't explain the iMac and the Mini.
[/Quote]
The iMac, Mini and 13" rMBP should be any time now. They tend not to leave things late in the year so October is a pretty sure bet and I think we'll hear about a press event shortly.[/quote]
Ok, but I have to ask where is the leaks, rumors and other nonsense that would suggest a October release? I think this is what frustrates many, there isn't even a hint of new desktops anytime soon.
It really has to suck. I mean really these guys are tech heads and likely want to ship respectable hardware. Right now there really is nothing respectable for the desktop.
It would just be a co-processor, it wouldn't have to run an OS although it could easily run iOS and be controlled from OS X. You'd have a Xeon chip and some multi-core ARM co-processor, could be 25-core 2GHz. Software that doesn't use a GUI like graphics rendering engines can be compiled against it and run in parallel. This kind of software can easily use every core:
It would need to be 64-bit and share the memory with the main CPU.
http://appleinsider.com/articles/12/10/01/apple-rumored-to-send-out-ipad-mini-event-invitations-on-oct-10
The last event was guessed well in advance:
http://www.macrumors.com/2012/07/30/apple-media-event-all-but-confirmed-for-mid-september-iphone-launch-likely/
It has to be next week at the earliest as the press event invites have to be sent out, usually on Friday.