When did Apple decide to take Mac OS X, strip down to it's bare essentials and then build it back up? We know the iPhone came out in 2007 so that's at least 3 years before the iPad came out and I'm under the impression it was at least 3 years before that. Even before that Mac OS X was built using PPC and x86 and had already transitioned Mac OS from Moto to PPC.
I suppose we can say MS has experience with PPC from porting Windows to create the Xbox but I doubt they put in the same effort or had the same constraints since it's the same essential HW and much more powerful than a PC, phone or tablet.
I commend MS for actually porting WinNT to their smartphone and eschewing WinCE in the process, and getting a single OS across ARM and x86, but it all seems rushed and without a proper cross development kit it seems like it's all going to backfire. Maybe they do have one that can build cross platform apps as easily as Apple's SDK allows, or easier, but I certainly haven't read about it and certainly didn't see it demoed yesterday in their very long and bored 2 hour video on Win8.
SJ gave an interview I believe at AllThingsD, where he stated that the iPad was the first device they were prototyping, but the hardware wasn't there yet... so they decided to do the iPhone instead/first.
My guess is that if this fails — no, when it fails — that it will be the end of Ballmer, that this will be the last failure he will be allowed to have. It will be interesting to see what this will do to Android, but I predict that it will have a negligible effect on iPad sales.
Sounds like wishful thinking on Mr. Shih's part. I think whether they abandon it or not will depend on whether it's successful, not any philosophical hardware/software point.
I agree with you except for the quantity sold. The RT version will hit the market first, without much of a app selection. It will be buggy and many promised features will be "added soon." The MSspeak for "don't hold your breath." This will set the mood for the Intel version which will sell like bacon in an Arab market. Since these turds will only be dropped on the USA market, I project sales of them to be in the hundreds of thousands combined.
You really have to think of them as being only a "table top" device. With a floppy keyboard and kickstand they will be hell to use on your lap or in bed, in the car, or anywhere you don't have a flat surface to set them up; hence the name, SURFACE. But lets keep this in mind, the Intel Surface, while being a table top computer has no more speed or graphics power then the MBA. It is FAR from being a desk top computer in any way. So, compare it to an MBA, without a back-lit keyboard, about half the time away from a power source, and unusable in most the ways one would use a MBA. The SURFACE is more of proof-of-concept then a marketable device.
I was going to type the exact same thing!... and add a bit:
Step back from the MS presentation, and take a look what's out there already... and many additions to come.
Windows 8 has "touch" baked in. Meaning: any manufacturer can add a touch-enabled screen to their device with Windows 8. That means ANY laptop, netbook, desktop monitor, all-in-one... even a TV for that matter at some point in time.
The ONLY thing Microsoft did here was move all of the innards of a netbook/laptop... behind the screen rather than under the keyboard. That's it.
"Touch" is not anything special or exclusive to the Surface. In fact, you can buy stand-alone touch-screens (anybody, not just developers), and integrate them with any number of OSes... including WinXP if you wanted to. An electrician buddy of mine installs them in houses for specialized security and home utility management.
The Surface as presented... is a netbook, that can be used as a tablet.... but ONLY in landscape mode, or so it appears.
Now go out and find a netbook, that you REALLY would love to use on a daily basis with MS Office, Photoshop, or AutoCad (no MBA's allowed
Next fire up a browser and watch a half-hour or so of Flash-based content. Come back in 2 hours and let us know if it's still usable without a power cable, and whether it didn't re-VaporizeMG™ the enclosure... and burnt a nice hole on the screen where the processor sits.
There are a few more problems to Surface Pro and a tablet or netbook:
1) security -- apparently, Microsoft will be delivering Windows 8 with all the security you need. Really? They're dumping on the huge security software guys too? How long will that last?
2) "if" MS security is not enough, what will be the added detractors when people start to install security suites on this device?
3) when the performance goes down hill... and possibly someone does experience the "odd" burnt hole in the screen or discolorization... where do they take it to to be fixed? Do they send it back in to Microsoft to be repaired? If so... how's their record on Customer Satisfaction, repairs, and warranty?
4) Do they have ANY experience or track-record when a device is user-configurable (as opposed to xbox), quote: "all your current programs will run on this in desktop mode".
5) when an install of say Adobe CS6 goes belly up... and doesn't work properly... what will be Microsoft's response? User error? Ask Adobe? Send it right in and we'll fix it?
Considering that a simple thing like a presentation was so botched, faked, and not very well thought out... can anyone trust Microsoft to have thought of those above points before taking on their OEMs?*
* I imagine an entire department of people responsible for the above answers at MS, already making appointments for therapy and stress-management... or actively searching for a new job!
"You really have to think of them as being only a "table top" device. With a floppy keyboard and kickstand they will be hell to use on your lap or in bed, in the car, or anywhere you don't have a flat surface to set them up; hence the name, SURFACE. But lets keep this in mind, the Intel Surface, while being a table top computer has no more speed or graphics power then the MBA. It is FAR from being a desk top computer in any way. So, compare it to an MBA, without a back-lit keyboard, about half the time away from a power source, and unusable in most the ways one would use a MBA. The SURFACE is more of proof-of-concept then a marketable device."
> Exactly! The keyboard cover is what is getting the lion's share of attention as THE ground-breaking innovation. Sure the Surface can be used as a Tablet, but they're effectively marketing it as a laptop - and in its laptop configuration, its awkwardness will make it unusable anywhere but on a table. Bizarre.
I have an electric hedge trimmer for the high hedges, and secateurs for the less demanding garden work - of which there is plenty. Similarly, I have a MBP for the demanding stuff, and an iPad for the somewhat less demanding activities - of which there is plenty. Horses for courses. The marketing of Surface seems to ignore this.
As I noted above, and let's get this straight: the Surface is a netbook PC with the "ability" to do touch.
I just printed out a 9,2x5,2" (16:9) screenshot of Photoshop, Lightroom, and MS Word from a web screenshot.
While readable... and workable... there will be compromises. The main one I see is that when working with "pro" software as above.... you better ALWAYS have the stylus with you and not lose it(!) Naturally, the keyboard/trackpad cover is also possible unless you carry a mouse as well, and until Logitec comes out with something better.
Also, again I'll say, don't expect pressure-sensitivity with a battery-less stylus, or else MS would have to state it licensed from Wacom somewhere. Or have they bought a company we no nothing about. What I wrote in italics is heavily patented by Wacom FYI... that's why they also have very limited if any competition.
That means that the trackpad better be absolutely perfect, and rival the MBA's. Because currently, no other manufacturer has been able to come up with a TP that beats an MBP or Air's. I would suggest that is the reason for the stylus in the first place.
Moreover, I seriously doubt anyone is going to be working with pro software using touch... ever.... without a redesign of the software itself. Will the likes of Adobe do it? Will Microsoft do it with Office Student and Home Edition 2013 Preview. Yes, that's the official MS name for it. What does that mean for Office 2007, 2010/11 users? And compatibility?
At the end, I was also thinking this could be a neat little gadget and I would also buy the Pro. I'll think I'll stick to an MBA, my iPads, and my Macs.
One device to rule them all and do everything is not looking like it's going to be the Surface. Too many "what ifs".
Now when... not if... Apple fusions what we want from a desktop, and what we love from iOS... you just KNOW Apple will be called the copycat. However, at that time... and only that time... will it be done seamlessly right to perfection. Bank on it.
> Exactly! The keyboard cover is what is getting the lion's share of attention as THE ground-breaking innovation. Sure the Surface can be used as a Tablet, but they're effectively marketing it as a laptop - and in its laptop configuration, its awkwardness will make it unusable anywhere but on a table. Bizarre.
You're missing the entire point. The keyboard doesn't mean that it can only be used with the keyboard. What they're offering is a tablet that will try to compete with all the other tablets, but with an additional feature - the keyboard. So you can use it just like any other tablet (in the car, on the beach, in your lap), but when you want to do extensive typing, you add the keyboard and put it on a table.
If the tablet portion is any good, this concept could be successful. I've argued for a long time that there's a place for an 'iPad Pro' which amounts to the same thing as this - an iPad with optional keyboard or with a keyboard which folds back out of the way like the older HP slates.
I only mentioned two generations not three but we are splitting hairs. I don't think you understand what I am getting it.
You're not getting it and I have neither the patience or time to explain what should be obvious about a server-side service being available to another 150 million devices simply because you claim the local HW can handle it.
I only mentioned two generations not three but we are splitting hairs. I don't think you understand what I am getting it. By withholding features such as Siri from products that are quite capable of running it, Apple is engaging in an economic trick known as "Premium Pricing" which is a form of price discrimination. That's the type of behaviour that is typical of a company that is run by sales and marketing and not a company that believes "that technology alone is not enough". Shame, as I thought this was exactly what Jobs didn't want to happen to the company. Companies do this because it leads to economic success but it makes for lousy consumer experience in the long run.
Apple seems to have no problem getting Mountain Lion to run on 5 year-old hardware. Check out the specs page for supported models. However, imagine if they told you that you can only use iCloud, Photo-sync and Messages on the latest generation hardware and none of the older models. What would you think then?
Sure, you can't expect Apple to provide a fully featured iOS release for mobile devices older than a couple of years given the CPUs in those devices. But withholding, as you said, "a server-side service" from those older devices, that's just blatant marketing. Oh, and maybe if you had bothered to read my post on Siri you would know I know exactly how it works and how Apple could actually make it better.
Why rag on just Apple for this? Have you seen Microsoft's product tiering? Windows is "just bytes" and yet they charge more for Pro, more still for Ultimate, they're all on the same disc. For their server versions, they even charge to enable the use of RAM beyond a certain amount, or to enable extra CPUs.
You're missing the entire point. The keyboard doesn't mean that it can only be used with the keyboard. What they're offering is a tablet that will try to compete with all the other tablets, but with an additional feature - the keyboard. So you can use it just like any other tablet (in the car, on the beach, in your lap), but when you want to do extensive typing, you add the keyboard and put it on a table.
If the tablet portion is any good, this concept could be successful. I've argued for a long time that there's a place for an 'iPad Pro' which amounts to the same thing as this - an iPad with optional keyboard or with a keyboard which folds back out of the way like the older HP slates.
Yes we know the keyboard is optional, but you wouldn't reckon that given the presentation and hype. I haven't seen any pictures of someone using the Surface with the screen keyboard. This is because they want to emphasise the cover-keyboard. If you're in the back seat of your car you can do a LOT of typing on a proper laptop. The Surface with its keyboard is not as useful as a proper laptop - for those who want a laptop so that it may be used where ther is no table.
What is the difference between a ploy and a strategy?
Part of me hopes that MS is wildly successful in this space. Tighter integration between hardware and software can lead to a better product. Score.
Unfortunately, I am also aware of the MS track record in this space. Yes I know about the XBOX - but one hot day doesn't make a summer. Plus, that whole team was insulated from the rest of the company - which pretty much means the HW thang is just twang...
...The beauty of a laptop/netbook/ultrabook screen is that you can adjust the angle to suit your head position and to suit the ambient light. Oh, and you can also balance it on your lap and type while you're sitting on the sofa. The best iPad cases I've used have graduations in their stands so you can adjust the angle but even then they're far from perfect. Microsoft will sell a few of these things as people will fall for the "well, it does more than an iPad" line until they realise that "more" does not mean "better"....
And they gave a demo of the kickstand to a bunch of tech guys that had laptops sitting on their laptops. Maybe that is why there was no apparent applause when he showed it. And no demo with it on his lap. Now, who will come up with a special case so it all fits on your lap. Engineering hint for those that want to develop it.....
Is it true these Microsoft tablets also have a cooling fan? Has anybody ever heard of any tablet having a cooling fan before now?
That would have to impact battery life compared to the iPad, wouldn't it?
Anyone?
I would not expect the Pro version to get the same battery life as the iPad. Instead, I would expect it to be comparable to a laptop. It is running laptop-class guts.
The RT version will likely have long battery life, comparable to other tablets.
There's no reason Siri couldn't be on the iPad 2 or the new iPad today (or the iPhone 4 for that matter)
Apple's data centers are unable to handle that level of use. Once they get more data centers up and running, then they will stop buckling under the load. Then Apple can allow users to use SIRI.
It is not a matter of which devices can handle the software. It is a matter of Apple having adequate servers.
And they gave a demo of the kickstand to a bunch of tech guys that had laptops sitting on their laptops. Maybe that is why there was no apparent applause when he showed it. And no demo with it on his lap. Now, who will come up with a special case so it all fits on your lap. Engineering hint for those that want to develop it.....
Those press guys all had Apple laptops as seen by the white logo on the screens.
FUNNY at a Microsoft Press Conference!
I wouldn't have applauded either as the presentation was an extremely painful attempt to imitate a genuine Apple event that would thrill the audience every few minutes.
I actually felt sorry for Balmer and his unprepared clueless assistants.
I also sort of feel sorry for the Apple retail employees who were poached by Microsoft for their new stores. If they had remained loyal to Apple they wouldn't have missed that huge raise and extra benefits just announced. I bet no Apple store will ever take them back after they choose to go to the Darkside with Lord Balmer.
You're missing the entire point. The keyboard doesn't mean that it can only be used with the keyboard. What they're offering is a tablet that will try to compete with all the other tablets, but with an additional feature - the keyboard. So you can use it just like any other tablet (in the car, on the beach, in your lap), but when you want to do extensive typing, you add the keyboard and put it on a table.
If the tablet portion is any good, this concept could be successful. I've argued for a long time that there's a place for an 'iPad Pro' which amounts to the same thing as this - an iPad with optional keyboard or with a keyboard which folds back out of the way like the older HP slates.
Jeez JR... you've been around these parts long enough to KNOW that there are some very nice cases already for the iPad that does just what you're asking.
There are a few more problems to Surface Pro and a tablet or netbook:
1) security -- apparently, Microsoft will be delivering Windows 8 with all the security you need. Really? They're dumping on the huge security software guys too? How long will that last?
2) "if" MS security is not enough, what will be the added detractors when people start to install security suites on this device?
3) when the performance goes down hill... and possibly someone does experience the "odd" burnt hole in the screen or discolorization... where do they take it to to be fixed? Do they send it back in to Microsoft to be repaired? If so... how's their record on Customer Satisfaction, repairs, and warranty?
4) Do they have ANY experience or track-record when a device is user-configurable (as opposed to xbox), quote: "all your current programs will run on this in desktop mode".
5) when an install of say Adobe CS6 goes belly up... and doesn't work properly... what will be Microsoft's response? User error? Ask Adobe? Send it right in and we'll fix it?
Considering that a simple thing like a presentation was so botched, faked, and not very well thought out... can anyone trust Microsoft to have thought of those above points before taking on their OEMs?*
* I imagine an entire department of people responsible for the above answers at MS, already making appointments for therapy and stress-management... or actively searching for a new job!
1) Microsoft has had Microsoft Security Essentials for free download for quite a while now. It works well. It will be baked into the OS. If you install a 3rd party, it will be disabled. The reasoning, upto 50% or more of consumers do not have any security software or have let it expired. This causes slow down (blames on MS) or spread more viruses or makes them a botnet.
2) See above... some companies want more finite control... they can instal their own. MSE can be picky about keygens (used to steal software) so again a reason someone might install 3rd party. Though KeyGens are notorius for including trojans, even on Mac.
3) Sold exclusively at Microsoft Stores (Online as well) So I assume return their for service. MS had a very good repair process for the Xbox (which is now fixed in the slim version). The problems were with PowerPC overheating... a reason Apple moved to x86. Engineers told them to watercool, they didn't listen. The surface will have predictable chips used in other tablets/ultraportables so it should be easier to engineer for their heat.
4) Microsoft Stores currently offer support (aka Genius) to all products and sell support plans for products purchased there. So yes they have started to gain experience with what other OEMs sell.
5) Well they will help, just like Genius does and either further direct to Adobe if it is rightfully an Adobe problem. If it is a tablet issue, repair. If it is a Windows issue... send to software engineers for fix or apply update if exists. This is no different than Apple. Took them 2 years to fix the alu macbook trackpad drivers in Windows, I'm not complaing though as I got a free Airport Extreme out of it.
As much as you guys like to spin it. This is good for Microsoft. The #1 issue for Windows in the past 5 years has been crap hardware. It is one of the reason I bought a Macbook even though I was sure I would primarily use Windows on it. Sure the OEMs might be upset, but its their fault for making bad hardware that when the power supply goes for example, Microsoft of Windows gets blamed in the eyes of the consumer.
The overall engineering is good. Now its just a wait and see on heat, durablity, support and I think #1 price.
As for the demo device crashing. Prototype device (not finished) with Windows 8 beta (also not finished). Again don't count them out, but don't count them in either. We will see this fall.
And they gave a demo of the kickstand to a bunch of tech guys that had laptops sitting on their laptops. Maybe that is why there was no apparent applause when he showed it. And no demo with it on his lap. Now, who will come up with a special case so it all fits on your lap. Engineering hint for those that want to develop it.....I
I use my tablet (a cheap HP Touchpad) on my lap all the time with the case kickstand. But with every device (and car) their is compromise. As much as Apple would like the iPad to be a no compromise Tablet, there is no such thing. There becomes a moment where you can't do something and have to move on to a Mac. The Surface is less compromise (provide Metro actually works, and you get apps for it). I'm glad I got the touchpad, as it was my first tablet and lets me easily understand the limitations.
I'll get the surface for two reasons. #1 I do two things at time (okay 3). I'll watch tv (or not) on the couch while using a laptop/tablet to browse the web and chat with friends. With the touchpad or ipad I would have to constantly switch between apps. Laptop/Ultrabook is bulky. Metro allows me to use big part of screen for browsing and side screen for my chats. Surface allows me to place on coffee tablet and bring out a keyboard (without having to plug something in, or turn on bluetooth and connect) if I need to do a long reply on a site, or a long reply chat. Otherwise the on screen keyboard will suffice.
Comments
The truth, as if we didn't know the story already, finally comes out.
MS would loose its a** if they tried tending to hardware. Software licensing is their true bread and butter.
Ok, the Xbox is a hit but it ain't like trying to deal with 1 billion pcs!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
When did Apple decide to take Mac OS X, strip down to it's bare essentials and then build it back up? We know the iPhone came out in 2007 so that's at least 3 years before the iPad came out and I'm under the impression it was at least 3 years before that. Even before that Mac OS X was built using PPC and x86 and had already transitioned Mac OS from Moto to PPC.
I suppose we can say MS has experience with PPC from porting Windows to create the Xbox but I doubt they put in the same effort or had the same constraints since it's the same essential HW and much more powerful than a PC, phone or tablet.
I commend MS for actually porting WinNT to their smartphone and eschewing WinCE in the process, and getting a single OS across ARM and x86, but it all seems rushed and without a proper cross development kit it seems like it's all going to backfire. Maybe they do have one that can build cross platform apps as easily as Apple's SDK allows, or easier, but I certainly haven't read about it and certainly didn't see it demoed yesterday in their very long and bored 2 hour video on Win8.
SJ gave an interview I believe at AllThingsD, where he stated that the iPad was the first device they were prototyping, but the hardware wasn't there yet... so they decided to do the iPhone instead/first.
My guess is that if this fails — no, when it fails — that it will be the end of Ballmer, that this will be the last failure he will be allowed to have. It will be interesting to see what this will do to Android, but I predict that it will have a negligible effect on iPad sales.
Sounds like wishful thinking on Mr. Shih's part. I think whether they abandon it or not will depend on whether it's successful, not any philosophical hardware/software point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macky the Macky
I agree with you except for the quantity sold. The RT version will hit the market first, without much of a app selection. It will be buggy and many promised features will be "added soon." The MSspeak for "don't hold your breath." This will set the mood for the Intel version which will sell like bacon in an Arab market. Since these turds will only be dropped on the USA market, I project sales of them to be in the hundreds of thousands combined.
You really have to think of them as being only a "table top" device. With a floppy keyboard and kickstand they will be hell to use on your lap or in bed, in the car, or anywhere you don't have a flat surface to set them up; hence the name, SURFACE. But lets keep this in mind, the Intel Surface, while being a table top computer has no more speed or graphics power then the MBA. It is FAR from being a desk top computer in any way. So, compare it to an MBA, without a back-lit keyboard, about half the time away from a power source, and unusable in most the ways one would use a MBA. The SURFACE is more of proof-of-concept then a marketable device.
I was going to type the exact same thing!... and add a bit:
Step back from the MS presentation, and take a look what's out there already... and many additions to come.
Windows 8 has "touch" baked in. Meaning: any manufacturer can add a touch-enabled screen to their device with Windows 8. That means ANY laptop, netbook, desktop monitor, all-in-one... even a TV for that matter at some point in time.
The ONLY thing Microsoft did here was move all of the innards of a netbook/laptop... behind the screen rather than under the keyboard. That's it.
"Touch" is not anything special or exclusive to the Surface. In fact, you can buy stand-alone touch-screens (anybody, not just developers), and integrate them with any number of OSes... including WinXP if you wanted to. An electrician buddy of mine installs them in houses for specialized security and home utility management.
The Surface as presented... is a netbook, that can be used as a tablet.... but ONLY in landscape mode, or so it appears.
Now go out and find a netbook, that you REALLY would love to use on a daily basis with MS Office, Photoshop, or AutoCad (no MBA's allowed
Next fire up a browser and watch a half-hour or so of Flash-based content. Come back in 2 hours and let us know if it's still usable without a power cable, and whether it didn't re-VaporizeMG™ the enclosure... and burnt a nice hole on the screen where the processor sits.
There are a few more problems to Surface Pro and a tablet or netbook:
1) security -- apparently, Microsoft will be delivering Windows 8 with all the security you need. Really? They're dumping on the huge security software guys too? How long will that last?
2) "if" MS security is not enough, what will be the added detractors when people start to install security suites on this device?
3) when the performance goes down hill... and possibly someone does experience the "odd" burnt hole in the screen or discolorization... where do they take it to to be fixed? Do they send it back in to Microsoft to be repaired? If so... how's their record on Customer Satisfaction, repairs, and warranty?
4) Do they have ANY experience or track-record when a device is user-configurable (as opposed to xbox), quote: "all your current programs will run on this in desktop mode".
5) when an install of say Adobe CS6 goes belly up... and doesn't work properly... what will be Microsoft's response? User error? Ask Adobe? Send it right in and we'll fix it?
Considering that a simple thing like a presentation was so botched, faked, and not very well thought out... can anyone trust Microsoft to have thought of those above points before taking on their OEMs?*
* I imagine an entire department of people responsible for the above answers at MS, already making appointments for therapy and stress-management... or actively searching for a new job!
Macky the Macky said:
"You really have to think of them as being only a "table top" device. With a floppy keyboard and kickstand they will be hell to use on your lap or in bed, in the car, or anywhere you don't have a flat surface to set them up; hence the name, SURFACE. But lets keep this in mind, the Intel Surface, while being a table top computer has no more speed or graphics power then the MBA. It is FAR from being a desk top computer in any way. So, compare it to an MBA, without a back-lit keyboard, about half the time away from a power source, and unusable in most the ways one would use a MBA. The SURFACE is more of proof-of-concept then a marketable device."
> Exactly! The keyboard cover is what is getting the lion's share of attention as THE ground-breaking innovation. Sure the Surface can be used as a Tablet, but they're effectively marketing it as a laptop - and in its laptop configuration, its awkwardness will make it unusable anywhere but on a table. Bizarre.
I have an electric hedge trimmer for the high hedges, and secateurs for the less demanding garden work - of which there is plenty. Similarly, I have a MBP for the demanding stuff, and an iPad for the somewhat less demanding activities - of which there is plenty. Horses for courses. The marketing of Surface seems to ignore this.
One last post here:
As I noted above, and let's get this straight: the Surface is a netbook PC with the "ability" to do touch.
I just printed out a 9,2x5,2" (16:9) screenshot of Photoshop, Lightroom, and MS Word from a web screenshot.
While readable... and workable... there will be compromises. The main one I see is that when working with "pro" software as above.... you better ALWAYS have the stylus with you and not lose it(!) Naturally, the keyboard/trackpad cover is also possible unless you carry a mouse as well, and until Logitec comes out with something better.
Also, again I'll say, don't expect pressure-sensitivity with a battery-less stylus, or else MS would have to state it licensed from Wacom somewhere. Or have they bought a company we no nothing about. What I wrote in italics is heavily patented by Wacom FYI... that's why they also have very limited if any competition.
That means that the trackpad better be absolutely perfect, and rival the MBA's. Because currently, no other manufacturer has been able to come up with a TP that beats an MBP or Air's. I would suggest that is the reason for the stylus in the first place.
Moreover, I seriously doubt anyone is going to be working with pro software using touch... ever.... without a redesign of the software itself. Will the likes of Adobe do it? Will Microsoft do it with Office Student and Home Edition 2013 Preview. Yes, that's the official MS name for it. What does that mean for Office 2007, 2010/11 users? And compatibility?
At the end, I was also thinking this could be a neat little gadget and I would also buy the Pro. I'll think I'll stick to an MBA, my iPads, and my Macs.
One device to rule them all and do everything is not looking like it's going to be the Surface. Too many "what ifs".
Now when... not if... Apple fusions what we want from a desktop, and what we love from iOS... you just KNOW Apple will be called the copycat. However, at that time... and only that time... will it be done seamlessly right to perfection. Bank on it.
You're missing the entire point. The keyboard doesn't mean that it can only be used with the keyboard. What they're offering is a tablet that will try to compete with all the other tablets, but with an additional feature - the keyboard. So you can use it just like any other tablet (in the car, on the beach, in your lap), but when you want to do extensive typing, you add the keyboard and put it on a table.
If the tablet portion is any good, this concept could be successful. I've argued for a long time that there's a place for an 'iPad Pro' which amounts to the same thing as this - an iPad with optional keyboard or with a keyboard which folds back out of the way like the older HP slates.
You're not getting it and I have neither the patience or time to explain what should be obvious about a server-side service being available to another 150 million devices simply because you claim the local HW can handle it.
Why rag on just Apple for this? Have you seen Microsoft's product tiering? Windows is "just bytes" and yet they charge more for Pro, more still for Ultimate, they're all on the same disc. For their server versions, they even charge to enable the use of RAM beyond a certain amount, or to enable extra CPUs.
Yes we know the keyboard is optional, but you wouldn't reckon that given the presentation and hype. I haven't seen any pictures of someone using the Surface with the screen keyboard. This is because they want to emphasise the cover-keyboard. If you're in the back seat of your car you can do a LOT of typing on a proper laptop. The Surface with its keyboard is not as useful as a proper laptop - for those who want a laptop so that it may be used where ther is no table.
I am at a loss...
What is the difference between a ploy and a strategy?
Part of me hopes that MS is wildly successful in this space. Tighter integration between hardware and software can lead to a better product. Score.
Unfortunately, I am also aware of the MS track record in this space. Yes I know about the XBOX - but one hot day doesn't make a summer. Plus, that whole team was insulated from the rest of the company - which pretty much means the HW thang is just twang...
Quote:
Originally Posted by otterfish
...The beauty of a laptop/netbook/ultrabook screen is that you can adjust the angle to suit your head position and to suit the ambient light. Oh, and you can also balance it on your lap and type while you're sitting on the sofa. The best iPad cases I've used have graduations in their stands so you can adjust the angle but even then they're far from perfect. Microsoft will sell a few of these things as people will fall for the "well, it does more than an iPad" line until they realise that "more" does not mean "better"....And they gave a demo of the kickstand to a bunch of tech guys that had laptops sitting on their laptops. Maybe that is why there was no apparent applause when he showed it. And no demo with it on his lap. Now, who will come up with a special case so it all fits on your lap. Engineering hint for those that want to develop it.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4phun
Is it true these Microsoft tablets also have a cooling fan? Has anybody ever heard of any tablet having a cooling fan before now?
That would have to impact battery life compared to the iPad, wouldn't it?
Anyone?
I would not expect the Pro version to get the same battery life as the iPad. Instead, I would expect it to be comparable to a laptop. It is running laptop-class guts.
The RT version will likely have long battery life, comparable to other tablets.
Quote:
Originally Posted by otterfish
Yeah, that Siri. My point exactly.
There's no reason Siri couldn't be on the iPad 2 or the new iPad today (or the iPhone 4 for that matter)
Apple's data centers are unable to handle that level of use. Once they get more data centers up and running, then they will stop buckling under the load. Then Apple can allow users to use SIRI.
It is not a matter of which devices can handle the software. It is a matter of Apple having adequate servers.
Those press guys all had Apple laptops as seen by the white logo on the screens.
FUNNY at a Microsoft Press Conference!
I wouldn't have applauded either as the presentation was an extremely painful attempt to imitate a genuine Apple event that would thrill the audience every few minutes.
I actually felt sorry for Balmer and his unprepared clueless assistants.
I also sort of feel sorry for the Apple retail employees who were poached by Microsoft for their new stores. If they had remained loyal to Apple they wouldn't have missed that huge raise and extra benefits just announced. I bet no Apple store will ever take them back after they choose to go to the Darkside with Lord Balmer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
You're missing the entire point. The keyboard doesn't mean that it can only be used with the keyboard. What they're offering is a tablet that will try to compete with all the other tablets, but with an additional feature - the keyboard. So you can use it just like any other tablet (in the car, on the beach, in your lap), but when you want to do extensive typing, you add the keyboard and put it on a table.
If the tablet portion is any good, this concept could be successful. I've argued for a long time that there's a place for an 'iPad Pro' which amounts to the same thing as this - an iPad with optional keyboard or with a keyboard which folds back out of the way like the older HP slates.
Jeez JR... you've been around these parts long enough to KNOW that there are some very nice cases already for the iPad that does just what you're asking.
http://www.amazon.com/MiniSuit-iPad-Aluminum-Bluetooth-Keyboard/dp/B005ISNC86/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1340376498&sr=8-4&keywords=ipad+keyboard+case - more stable even.
http://www.amazon.com/Kensington-KeyFolio-Removable-Keyboard-K39512US/dp/B005Y1CYSQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1340376498&sr=8-1&keywords=ipad+keyboard+case - hideously ugly... but does the job you're askin'.
http://www.amazon.com/Targus-THZ084US-Versavu-Keyboard-Apple/dp/B005DEW4BQ/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1340376498&sr=8-8&keywords=ipad+keyboard+case - again... works.... also quite nice in Portrait mode.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePixelDoc
There are a few more problems to Surface Pro and a tablet or netbook:
1) security -- apparently, Microsoft will be delivering Windows 8 with all the security you need. Really? They're dumping on the huge security software guys too? How long will that last?
2) "if" MS security is not enough, what will be the added detractors when people start to install security suites on this device?
3) when the performance goes down hill... and possibly someone does experience the "odd" burnt hole in the screen or discolorization... where do they take it to to be fixed? Do they send it back in to Microsoft to be repaired? If so... how's their record on Customer Satisfaction, repairs, and warranty?
4) Do they have ANY experience or track-record when a device is user-configurable (as opposed to xbox), quote: "all your current programs will run on this in desktop mode".
5) when an install of say Adobe CS6 goes belly up... and doesn't work properly... what will be Microsoft's response? User error? Ask Adobe? Send it right in and we'll fix it?
Considering that a simple thing like a presentation was so botched, faked, and not very well thought out... can anyone trust Microsoft to have thought of those above points before taking on their OEMs?*
* I imagine an entire department of people responsible for the above answers at MS, already making appointments for therapy and stress-management... or actively searching for a new job!
1) Microsoft has had Microsoft Security Essentials for free download for quite a while now. It works well. It will be baked into the OS. If you install a 3rd party, it will be disabled. The reasoning, upto 50% or more of consumers do not have any security software or have let it expired. This causes slow down (blames on MS) or spread more viruses or makes them a botnet.
2) See above... some companies want more finite control... they can instal their own. MSE can be picky about keygens (used to steal software) so again a reason someone might install 3rd party. Though KeyGens are notorius for including trojans, even on Mac.
3) Sold exclusively at Microsoft Stores (Online as well) So I assume return their for service. MS had a very good repair process for the Xbox (which is now fixed in the slim version). The problems were with PowerPC overheating... a reason Apple moved to x86. Engineers told them to watercool, they didn't listen. The surface will have predictable chips used in other tablets/ultraportables so it should be easier to engineer for their heat.
4) Microsoft Stores currently offer support (aka Genius) to all products and sell support plans for products purchased there. So yes they have started to gain experience with what other OEMs sell.
5) Well they will help, just like Genius does and either further direct to Adobe if it is rightfully an Adobe problem. If it is a tablet issue, repair. If it is a Windows issue... send to software engineers for fix or apply update if exists. This is no different than Apple. Took them 2 years to fix the alu macbook trackpad drivers in Windows, I'm not complaing though as I got a free Airport Extreme out of it.
As much as you guys like to spin it. This is good for Microsoft. The #1 issue for Windows in the past 5 years has been crap hardware. It is one of the reason I bought a Macbook even though I was sure I would primarily use Windows on it. Sure the OEMs might be upset, but its their fault for making bad hardware that when the power supply goes for example, Microsoft of Windows gets blamed in the eyes of the consumer.
The overall engineering is good. Now its just a wait and see on heat, durablity, support and I think #1 price.
As for the demo device crashing. Prototype device (not finished) with Windows 8 beta (also not finished). Again don't count them out, but don't count them in either. We will see this fall.
Quote:
Originally Posted by icoco3
And they gave a demo of the kickstand to a bunch of tech guys that had laptops sitting on their laptops. Maybe that is why there was no apparent applause when he showed it. And no demo with it on his lap. Now, who will come up with a special case so it all fits on your lap. Engineering hint for those that want to develop it.....I
I use my tablet (a cheap HP Touchpad) on my lap all the time with the case kickstand. But with every device (and car) their is compromise. As much as Apple would like the iPad to be a no compromise Tablet, there is no such thing. There becomes a moment where you can't do something and have to move on to a Mac. The Surface is less compromise (provide Metro actually works, and you get apps for it). I'm glad I got the touchpad, as it was my first tablet and lets me easily understand the limitations.
I'll get the surface for two reasons. #1 I do two things at time (okay 3). I'll watch tv (or not) on the couch while using a laptop/tablet to browse the web and chat with friends. With the touchpad or ipad I would have to constantly switch between apps. Laptop/Ultrabook is bulky. Metro allows me to use big part of screen for browsing and side screen for my chats. Surface allows me to place on coffee tablet and bring out a keyboard (without having to plug something in, or turn on bluetooth and connect) if I need to do a long reply on a site, or a long reply chat. Otherwise the on screen keyboard will suffice.