Great point....Apple sells a product.... For Google and Facebook the product they sell is "you." And they do this by "harvesting" your personal information.
I deliberately use the word "harvesting" because it sounds so "evil!"
FACT: Upon release, the MS Surface RT WILL compete in the exact same market as Apple's iPad.
FACT: Apple (currently) has absolutely nothing remotely in the same category as either the MS Surface Pro nor the Google Nexus 7.
Fact: Osborne Computer died a miserable death after announcing it's new computer products with multiple month lead time.
Fact: Apple releases new iPads typically in the Jan-March timeframe... Same release cycle as the Surface Pro. Apple has always skated to where the Puck is going to be.
Fact:
Fact: The category defined by the Pro (part laptop (os), part tablet (HW)), has existed for 15 years. It's a crossover category that never succeeded... I've been using/seeing/complaining about Windows Tablets since 1995 (Electronic Medical Records).
Fact: As advertised, Surface Pro is about marrying an SW Franchise (Win8+Office) to under $1000 hardware that works well as both a Laptop and mobile tablet... And the only way to do that and make a profit is to eliminate the OEM from the financial equation.
Fact: The only Microsoft HW successes occur when the division making the hardware makes the software (Xbox). And that took 5 years of pouring money at the problem for that division to become profitable.
Fact: I hold stock in Apple. I own mutual funds that own Microsoft. I tend to look at the business reasons of a product launch.
Time will tell if Microsoft succeeds... but those are the facts in front of this court of reason. I'm not buying based on these.
Frankly the only ways Windows RT is marginally 'better' are in ways that I no longer care about... i.e. munging spreadsheets, building databases from scratch and coding.
The ways that the iPad is better are ways that I really use. Location, portability, touch, photo, orientation, instant access, convenience, etc.
I bow to no one in my identification as a 'power user', and frankly have left desktops and laptops behind for 99% of my use.
And I create LOTS of content.
Exactly... No consumer buys a computer to 'run Excel' or build word macros... they want a computer to 'do budgets,' or 'create documents' And between a powerful iPad, some practically free applications, and the cloud, that niche is filled.
Gamers, 'Computer Professionals', people who 'upgrade computers' (low level modders), are forgetting that 'computers' have moved from 'build your own' (hot rods), 'consumable' ("100K maintenance free" -).
Hence it's key, anyone who says 'more powerful' 'more upgradable' and doesn't focus on 'a more pleasing experience','more intuitive','more complementary to my life,' isn't the market voice of the Billions of buyers who want/need a bookreader/notetaking/vidplaying phone/pad.
I disagree. I think the ARM version (Microsoft Surface for Windows RT) is the iPad competitor. The Intel version (Microsoft Surface for Windows 8) is being pushed as a competitor to UltraBooks - which are supposed to be priced somewhere between the iPad and Air. Personally, I see the Intel version as strictly oriented towards businesses. Its sole claim to fame is its ability to be managed with the same tools already in place for managing desktops (System Center, etc.). It's quite a bit larger, heavier and produces more heat. I can't imagine anybody buying the Intel version for personal use. Are you really going to buy an Intel version of a tablet, just so that you can still run all your legacy Windows apps? I can't imagine so. If you're buying a tablet, you're really buying into Metro. Otherwise, just get a laptop.
I see your point. I really don't see the Intel version doing well at all against ultrabooks, though. It's far too costly for something that doesn't offer much more portability while compromising on keyboard input.
right. Apple never calls the Touch a tablet because it wanted to capitalize on - and extend - the iPod's success.
but you didn't answer my crucial question: which will your kid want for Xmas? that's where the markets collide.
and Apple can't permanently give away every kind of market there is for any kind of tablet-like device between 3.5" and 10".
I don't think Apple is "giving away" anything. Apple will not compete in a market where it cannot make money. If the iPad is doing well then there is no need to compete in a smaller form factor.
If, on the other hand, Apple decides that it can compete in that market and still receive the same, or close to the same, margins as its other products, then Apple will compete in that space. (I can almost guarantee you, though, that the product would not be called an iPod)
...which is precisely why they don't really want to make a lot of them, or invest particularly heavily in them. If MS uses them to kick-start the market and OEMs, they sell more licenses. If Google kick-starts the Android Tablet market, they aren't completely stuck with competitors that squeeze out their margins-- Amazon with ~everything, and Apple potentially with iAd.
I never thought I would say this... but Microsoft's strategy makes more sense than Google's!
I think that you are assuming that MS' strategy is to release the Surface as a reference design(s). I do not agree with this assumption. I think that MS has made a fatal mistake and alienated its OEM Partners. I do not believe that MS can price either Surface tablet low enough to be competitive -- or high enough to provide an umbrella for its OEM Partners.
Either way, MS has screwed both its partners and itself!
Who gives a rat's ass about his statement. I was just pointing out another fact... or do you know otherwise.
A dig at DaHarder? Do you see his name in my statement? Defending DaHarder... how cute.
You quoted his statement. Apparently you care about it. The only reason to do so is if you have something to either support or contradict his statement. You don't quote somebody and then say later that your statement had nothing to do with his statement. Your own statement was snark. You can't say otherwise.
You quoted his statement. Apparently you care about it. The only reason to do so is if you have something to either support or contradict his statement. You don't quote somebody and then say later that your statement had nothing to do with his statement. Your own statement was snark. You can't say otherwise.
What are you, the f*cking forum police.
There, I changed my original statement. Satisfied!
I don't think Apple is "giving away" anything. Apple will not compete in a market where it cannot make money. If the iPad is doing well then there is no need to compete in a smaller form factor.
If, on the other hand, Apple decides that it can compete in that market and still receive the same, or close to the same, margins as its other products, then Apple will compete in that space. (I can almost guarantee you, though, that the product would not be called an iPod)
If kids are getting the Nexus 7 for Christmas and buying into the Android ecosystem that's not a win for Apple.
A 5-7" tablet is better off running the iPhone UI layout than the iPad one. It's better off being called an iPod than an iPad given actual ipad apps will run poorly on the smaller size.
If kids are getting the Nexus 7 for Christmas and buying into the Android ecosystem that's not a win for Apple.
A 5-7" tablet is better off running the iPhone UI layout than the iPad one. It's better off being called an iPod than an iPad given actual ipad apps will run poorly on the smaller size.
It's not a loss for Apple either if iPad sales still rise.
Millions of people are apparently buying into the Android ecosystem ever year but so far it hasn't hurt Apple's sales.
I don't think Apple is "giving away" anything. Apple will not compete in a market where it cannot make money. If the iPad is doing well then there is no need to compete in a smaller form factor.
If, on the other hand, Apple decides that it can compete in that market and still receive the same, or close to the same, margins as its other products, then Apple will compete in that space. (I can almost guarantee you, though, that the product would not be called an iPod)
well we don't agree. first i assume the Touch makes a profit for Apple, and a scaled up version would cost very little more to manufacture. i was guessing $50. second, it could sell in even larger numbers too - 5"-5.5" might prove to be a market "sweet spot" (7" really hasn't), if the apparent success of some big screen Android phones means anything. third, it could finally replace the iPod Classic, the oldest product in Apple's entire inventory, because SSD prices keep falling and it would have room enough for a big one. finally, abdicating a significant market segment is always a risk, because it opens the door to others to get a foothold, build momentum, and then come after yours.
so ... we'll see what Apple actually does this Fall. one thing we do know is they have hinted a lot about new products this year that we haven't seen yet.
Let's see. It can't threaten the Kindle Fire b/c it's already burned itself out. 4.7M between November and December and then dropped all the way to 700k units in 1Q2012. Sad. The Surface will NOT be in the same price range. Just not happening. Pricing and battery life are the 2 things MS needs to spill most about the Surface, but I'm anticipating when I ehar them I will be falling from my chair in laughter. The iPod Touch will be getting a refresh this fall (or some people think replaced by a 7" iPad) and I'm confident the new chips in it will give the Nexus a run for the money. Didn't the new iPad stomp all over Tegra 3 in most tests?
well we don't agree. first i assume the Touch makes a profit for Apple, and a scaled up version would cost very little more to manufacture. i was guessing $50. second, it could sell in even larger numbers too - 5"-5.5" might prove to be a market "sweet spot" (7" really hasn't), if the apparent success of some big screen Android phones means anything. third, it could finally replace the iPod Classic, the oldest product in Apple's entire inventory, because SSD prices keep falling and it would have room enough for a big one. finally, abdicating a significant market segment is always a risk, because it opens the door to others to get a foothold, build momentum, and then come after yours.
so ... we'll see what Apple actually does this Fall. one thing we do know is they have hinted a lot about new products this year that we haven't seen yet.
Apple is not abdicating anything. As mentioned, Apple will not go after a market unless they think there is money to be made. Apple will not join in the game called "Race To The Bottom".
I think Steve J. saw that the best way to grow the brand is to develop new products that utilize the ecosystem. Maybe Apple will repurpose the iPod brand but, imo, Apple will introduce a new product that hopefully will enjoy the same success it has seen with the iPhone and iPad. (I'm talking about the iTV (for lack of a better name).
No, that's his 'my Surface crashed during the demo and I looked like a clown trying to hide it' look.
I actually thought he did an amazing job of plowing forward despite the device failure. As a presenter, I think Steven Sinofsky was really impressive, and if he was as good at managing development as he is at keeping calm and carrying on, the tablet probably wouldn't have frozen in the first place.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher126
Great point....Apple sells a product.... For Google and Facebook the product they sell is "you." And they do this by "harvesting" your personal information.
I deliberately use the word "harvesting" because it sounds so "evil!"
Ha! Google should name their tablet the "Morlock"
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaHarder
FACT: Upon release, the MS Surface RT WILL compete in the exact same market as Apple's iPad.
FACT: Apple (currently) has absolutely nothing remotely in the same category as either the MS Surface Pro nor the Google Nexus 7.
Fact: Osborne Computer died a miserable death after announcing it's new computer products with multiple month lead time.
Fact: Apple releases new iPads typically in the Jan-March timeframe... Same release cycle as the Surface Pro. Apple has always skated to where the Puck is going to be.
Fact:
Fact: The category defined by the Pro (part laptop (os), part tablet (HW)), has existed for 15 years. It's a crossover category that never succeeded... I've been using/seeing/complaining about Windows Tablets since 1995 (Electronic Medical Records).
Fact: As advertised, Surface Pro is about marrying an SW Franchise (Win8+Office) to under $1000 hardware that works well as both a Laptop and mobile tablet... And the only way to do that and make a profit is to eliminate the OEM from the financial equation.
Fact: The only Microsoft HW successes occur when the division making the hardware makes the software (Xbox). And that took 5 years of pouring money at the problem for that division to become profitable.
Fact: I hold stock in Apple. I own mutual funds that own Microsoft. I tend to look at the business reasons of a product launch.
Time will tell if Microsoft succeeds... but those are the facts in front of this court of reason. I'm not buying based on these.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GQB
And worse in many others.
Frankly the only ways Windows RT is marginally 'better' are in ways that I no longer care about... i.e. munging spreadsheets, building databases from scratch and coding.
The ways that the iPad is better are ways that I really use. Location, portability, touch, photo, orientation, instant access, convenience, etc.
I bow to no one in my identification as a 'power user', and frankly have left desktops and laptops behind for 99% of my use.
And I create LOTS of content.
Exactly... No consumer buys a computer to 'run Excel' or build word macros... they want a computer to 'do budgets,' or 'create documents' And between a powerful iPad, some practically free applications, and the cloud, that niche is filled.
Gamers, 'Computer Professionals', people who 'upgrade computers' (low level modders), are forgetting that 'computers' have moved from 'build your own' (hot rods), 'consumable' ("100K maintenance free" -).
Hence it's key, anyone who says 'more powerful' 'more upgradable' and doesn't focus on 'a more pleasing experience','more intuitive','more complementary to my life,' isn't the market voice of the Billions of buyers who want/need a bookreader/notetaking/vidplaying phone/pad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon
I disagree. I think the ARM version (Microsoft Surface for Windows RT) is the iPad competitor. The Intel version (Microsoft Surface for Windows 8) is being pushed as a competitor to UltraBooks - which are supposed to be priced somewhere between the iPad and Air. Personally, I see the Intel version as strictly oriented towards businesses. Its sole claim to fame is its ability to be managed with the same tools already in place for managing desktops (System Center, etc.). It's quite a bit larger, heavier and produces more heat. I can't imagine anybody buying the Intel version for personal use. Are you really going to buy an Intel version of a tablet, just so that you can still run all your legacy Windows apps? I can't imagine so. If you're buying a tablet, you're really buying into Metro. Otherwise, just get a laptop.
I see your point. I really don't see the Intel version doing well at all against ultrabooks, though. It's far too costly for something that doesn't offer much more portability while compromising on keyboard input.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfiejr
right. Apple never calls the Touch a tablet because it wanted to capitalize on - and extend - the iPod's success.
but you didn't answer my crucial question: which will your kid want for Xmas? that's where the markets collide.
and Apple can't permanently give away every kind of market there is for any kind of tablet-like device between 3.5" and 10".
I don't think Apple is "giving away" anything. Apple will not compete in a market where it cannot make money. If the iPad is doing well then there is no need to compete in a smaller form factor.
If, on the other hand, Apple decides that it can compete in that market and still receive the same, or close to the same, margins as its other products, then Apple will compete in that space. (I can almost guarantee you, though, that the product would not be called an iPod)
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaarrrgggh
...which is precisely why they don't really want to make a lot of them, or invest particularly heavily in them. If MS uses them to kick-start the market and OEMs, they sell more licenses. If Google kick-starts the Android Tablet market, they aren't completely stuck with competitors that squeeze out their margins-- Amazon with ~everything, and Apple potentially with iAd.
I never thought I would say this... but Microsoft's strategy makes more sense than Google's!
I think that you are assuming that MS' strategy is to release the Surface as a reference design(s). I do not agree with this assumption. I think that MS has made a fatal mistake and alienated its OEM Partners. I do not believe that MS can price either Surface tablet low enough to be competitive -- or high enough to provide an umbrella for its OEM Partners.
Either way, MS has screwed both its partners and itself!
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacBook Pro
I agree conceptually but Google's approach is actually "Ads Everywhere."
How exactly do you see any more ads in Android than in iOS?
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit
Who gives a rat's ass about his statement. I was just pointing out another fact... or do you know otherwise.
A dig at DaHarder? Do you see his name in my statement? Defending DaHarder... how cute.
Cute?
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit
Who gives a rat's ass about his statement. I was just pointing out another fact... or do you know otherwise.
A dig at DaHarder? Do you see his name in my statement? Defending DaHarder... how cute.
You quoted his statement. Apparently you care about it. The only reason to do so is if you have something to either support or contradict his statement. You don't quote somebody and then say later that your statement had nothing to do with his statement. Your own statement was snark. You can't say otherwise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon
You quoted his statement. Apparently you care about it. The only reason to do so is if you have something to either support or contradict his statement. You don't quote somebody and then say later that your statement had nothing to do with his statement. Your own statement was snark. You can't say otherwise.
What are you, the f*cking forum police.
There, I changed my original statement. Satisfied!
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobBIT
Do people realize that the Nexus 7 could be a real threat to the iPod touch?
Of course. Then again there are a few around here the vehemently argue that they aren't in the same class which is pretty narrow minded.
If I want to get my kid an electronic pacifier for around $200 the options are Kindle Fire, iPod Touch, 3DS, PSP and now the new Nexus 7.
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit
I don't think Apple is "giving away" anything. Apple will not compete in a market where it cannot make money. If the iPad is doing well then there is no need to compete in a smaller form factor.
If, on the other hand, Apple decides that it can compete in that market and still receive the same, or close to the same, margins as its other products, then Apple will compete in that space. (I can almost guarantee you, though, that the product would not be called an iPod)
If kids are getting the Nexus 7 for Christmas and buying into the Android ecosystem that's not a win for Apple.
A 5-7" tablet is better off running the iPhone UI layout than the iPad one. It's better off being called an iPod than an iPad given actual ipad apps will run poorly on the smaller size.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht
Of course. Then again there are a few around here the vehemently argue that they aren't in the same class which is pretty narrow minded.
If I want to get my kid an electronic pacifier for around $200 the options are Kindle Fire, iPod Touch, 3DS, PSP and now the new Nexus 7.
Don't forget the Blackberry Playbook.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht
If kids are getting the Nexus 7 for Christmas and buying into the Android ecosystem that's not a win for Apple.
A 5-7" tablet is better off running the iPhone UI layout than the iPad one. It's better off being called an iPod than an iPad given actual ipad apps will run poorly on the smaller size.
It's not a loss for Apple either if iPad sales still rise.
Millions of people are apparently buying into the Android ecosystem ever year but so far it hasn't hurt Apple's sales.
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit
It's not a loss for Apple either if iPad sales still rise.
Millions of people are apparently buying into the Android ecosystem ever year but so far it hasn't hurt Apple's sales.
Exactly, there are plenty of people around for both companies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit
I don't think Apple is "giving away" anything. Apple will not compete in a market where it cannot make money. If the iPad is doing well then there is no need to compete in a smaller form factor.
If, on the other hand, Apple decides that it can compete in that market and still receive the same, or close to the same, margins as its other products, then Apple will compete in that space. (I can almost guarantee you, though, that the product would not be called an iPod)
well we don't agree. first i assume the Touch makes a profit for Apple, and a scaled up version would cost very little more to manufacture. i was guessing $50. second, it could sell in even larger numbers too - 5"-5.5" might prove to be a market "sweet spot" (7" really hasn't), if the apparent success of some big screen Android phones means anything. third, it could finally replace the iPod Classic, the oldest product in Apple's entire inventory, because SSD prices keep falling and it would have room enough for a big one. finally, abdicating a significant market segment is always a risk, because it opens the door to others to get a foothold, build momentum, and then come after yours.
so ... we'll see what Apple actually does this Fall. one thing we do know is they have hinted a lot about new products this year that we haven't seen yet.
Let's see. It can't threaten the Kindle Fire b/c it's already burned itself out. 4.7M between November and December and then dropped all the way to 700k units in 1Q2012. Sad. The Surface will NOT be in the same price range. Just not happening. Pricing and battery life are the 2 things MS needs to spill most about the Surface, but I'm anticipating when I ehar them I will be falling from my chair in laughter. The iPod Touch will be getting a refresh this fall (or some people think replaced by a 7" iPad) and I'm confident the new chips in it will give the Nexus a run for the money. Didn't the new iPad stomp all over Tegra 3 in most tests?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfiejr
well we don't agree. first i assume the Touch makes a profit for Apple, and a scaled up version would cost very little more to manufacture. i was guessing $50. second, it could sell in even larger numbers too - 5"-5.5" might prove to be a market "sweet spot" (7" really hasn't), if the apparent success of some big screen Android phones means anything. third, it could finally replace the iPod Classic, the oldest product in Apple's entire inventory, because SSD prices keep falling and it would have room enough for a big one. finally, abdicating a significant market segment is always a risk, because it opens the door to others to get a foothold, build momentum, and then come after yours.
so ... we'll see what Apple actually does this Fall. one thing we do know is they have hinted a lot about new products this year that we haven't seen yet.
Apple is not abdicating anything. As mentioned, Apple will not go after a market unless they think there is money to be made. Apple will not join in the game called "Race To The Bottom".
I think Steve J. saw that the best way to grow the brand is to develop new products that utilize the ecosystem. Maybe Apple will repurpose the iPod brand but, imo, Apple will introduce a new product that hopefully will enjoy the same success it has seen with the iPhone and iPad. (I'm talking about the iTV (for lack of a better name).
Quote:
Originally Posted by markbyrn
No, that's his 'my Surface crashed during the demo and I looked like a clown trying to hide it' look.
I actually thought he did an amazing job of plowing forward despite the device failure. As a presenter, I think Steven Sinofsky was really impressive, and if he was as good at managing development as he is at keeping calm and carrying on, the tablet probably wouldn't have frozen in the first place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredaroony
How exactly do you see any more ads in Android than in iOS?
Siri surfing bypasses Google wherever possible!