So tell us what was done with bias in the comparison I provided.
You simply ignored all the contradictory evidence or lack of evidence. The blindness to protocol led to confirmation bias in your assessment that Munster's study was scientific.
When intelligent people are forced to consume, they do research and use their knowledge to determine what is best for them.
If you need all you information from a commercial and are mad at Apple for somehow misleading you with theirs, I know where you stand.
This skirts the issue. If you were shopping for food in the store and found what seemed to be a prepared vegetarian dish, and nothing on the package stated otherwise, you would assume that you shouldn't need to go home and go to the manufacturer's site, and look up the dish in their index to find that it actually was not truly vegetarian. And the single place you could find this would be to go to this page, it wouldn't be on the posters in the stores or commercials on TV. Fortunately, here in the US you couldn't sell food this way. That in electronics it is another story simply means just that, it doesn't mean anyone who bought an iPhone and never saw this disclaimer is an idiot.
Half the people I know who have iPhones have never been to the Apple site for this purpose. When you say "When intelligent people are forced to consume they do research and use their knowledge to determine what is best for them" you're making a huge sweeping generalization that Aunt Minnie and Grandpa Joe, who don't spend much time tinkering online, are exactly like us. We have a bucketload of iPhones in my extended family, including some oldsters. The fact is that they don't really care if Siri works perfectly or not and they love their phones but none of them could answer the "Is Siri beta?" question, and I doubt they've ever been to the Apple site to look up iPhone info. They didn't know they had to!!! Idiots? Nope. Like I say, they don't feel misled because they love their iPhones, don't rely on Siri and half of them don't know what beta means. But that's not the point. It's been successfully shifted off the radar.
Ask the next 50 people you meet on the street with iPhones the Siri/beta question. How many could answer it? According to you those that couldn't are dolts (and deserve what they get?) I disagree with that generalized assumption.
…a beta is never intended for a large audience. It's meant for a review group sending back findings on using the software.
I suppose you don't consider "iPhone 4S owners" to be a 'review group'.
- does Siri beta have such reporting functions?… …Never can I inform Apple why the 38% failed and what I should have had.
Yes. You inform through using it. Any time you correct something it got wrong, you're informing Apple. Any time you enunciate further, you're informing Apple. They said this at launch.
- was it launched as a feature for the whole of the intended audience from day 1?
Nope.
- does it implicate that when Siri is out of beta, that it will be flawless (as current errors are so vividly attributed to a beta status?
No software is flawless, so there's no implication of anything.
The part I am disappointed with is the only place the beta is noted is on the web site. The TV ads I've seen certainly don't say it's beta, and I hadn't seen it noted on the store displays. It just seems wrong to advertise it as your flagship feature and not make it clear in all your marketing materials that it's beta.
Agreed. I'm surprised the commercials are allowed to not say "beta". They say "sequences shortened", but nothing about the beta. I'd think the British whatever-it-is would be all over that (unless they DO do it there…).
The part I am disappointed with is the only place the beta is noted is on the web site. The TV ads I've seen certainly don't say it's beta, and I hadn't seen it noted on the store displays. It just seems wrong to advertise it as your flagship feature and not make it clear in all your marketing materials that it's beta.
And under what law or sense of morality would that have to fall under?
According to the University of Ohio, for example, Apple's designation is perfectly correct.
Quote:
A beta version or beta release software usually is the first version of a computer program that implements all features in the initial software requirements specification and is considered an intermediate stage. It can be unstable but useful. Generally considered a preview stage where testers (sometimes, the general public) are encouraged to use the beta software and provide feedback for the developers.
Apple has decided, and rightfully so, to label Siri as beta when and where they want to. Considering that Siri will always be in a 'learning' mode, calling it a beta, is a work of genius and is no different than Michelangelo often declaring, "I am still learning," even past his 90th birthday, as well, "It's no accident that services such as Gmail, Google Maps, Flickr, del.icio.us, and the like may be expected to bear a 'Beta' logo for years at a time."
As a matter of fact, Apple has every right to label Siri, Perpetual or Permanent Beta. Google that phrase and checkout the 62 million results.
And under what law or sense of morality would that have to fall under?
I didn't say anything about legality. Maybe you're responding to someone else on that point.
I think you misread what I said. I don't have any problem with it being called a beta or that it's made available as part of a shipping product. The problem I have is not making it clear in more of the marketing materials. The fact that Siri is beta isn't even in the small print on the ads that I saw.
They say "sequences shortened", but nothing about the beta. I'd think the British whatever-it-is would be all over that (unless they DO do it there…).
Well Australia is quite picky about this kind of stuff. Besides fining Apple for iPad "4G", if they wanted to they could go after Siri. The Australian consumer watchdog may have their hands full though policing companies increasing prices unfairly because of the carbon pricing just starting today in Australia.
I didn't say anything about legality. Maybe you're responding to someone else on that point.
I think you misread what I said. I don't have any problem with it being called a beta or that it's made available as part of a shipping product. The problem I have is not making it clear in more of the marketing materials. The fact that Siri is beta isn't even in the small print on the ads that I saw.
It is naughty of Apple. Somebody should make Apple state Siri [Beta] more clearly, otherwise Apple should just remove the Beta status altogether. It's not like an average consumer will be like, "Oh, it's Beta, that's okay then" ~ because outside of our cloistered circles the man/woman on the street has no idea what Beta is, let alone "artificial intelligence".
Apple needs to come off the fence on Siri, "double-down" like Tim said (as they are doing) even further, and go for broke with Siri. There's no turning back now, no need for "Beta"...
I've no doubt that Mr. Munster will do a side-by-side test between Siri and Google Now once it's in release, as will hundreds of others. I don't expect miracles but would not be at all surprised that Google would offer the more accurate results between the two. I'd personally expect comprehension to be a draw. Both iOS and Android have pretty good voice recognition already.
By the way, isn't Munster generally a pro-Apple guy? Certainly no sign that he cares much for Google AFAIK. I'd be surprised if his tests were intended to make Siri look bad.
The problem is with munsters argument is that he is compairing direct text input to an ai on a computer for accuracy. Its not a fair comparison. The text input comes from a human being, the other is a computer ai that is doing astoundingly well from recognizing voice input and then analyzing what you mean or want. Siri will get more accurate with time. It already is.
[I]This is in response to Mechanic's statement: "The problem is with munsters argument is that he is compairing direct text input to an ai on a computer for accuracy. Its not a fair comparison. The text input comes from a human being, the other is a computer ai that is doing astoundingly well from recognizing voice input and then analyzing what you mean or want. Siri will get more accurate with time. It already is."[/I]
So text input comes from a human but voice input from a human into siri comes from an AI? Your comment makes absolutely no sense. Siri has been proven unreliable, but your apple colored glasses refuse to allow you to see the truth.
I'm quite surprised they haven't already. Maybe Siri works well enough with Australian accents that no one has complained about it.
Yeah, either that or people here aren't using Siri as much. I have to stick to "British English" as that works best for me, because my accent is not hardcore "aussie" enough and still somewhat British... Well, the way I was taught it, Queen's English and all that LOL.
But yeah. No major rumblings in the mainstream media about Siri. They're probably too busy showing our Treasurer holding up a piece of chicken at a supermarket to prove that there are no cost increases due to the new carbon pricing (tax).
I didn't say anything about legality. Maybe you're responding to someone else on that point.
You are right on both counts. Your point, I guess, was more towards the "morality".
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM
I think you misread what I said. I don't have any problem with it being called a beta or that it's made available as part of a shipping product. The problem I have is not making it clear in more of the marketing materials. The fact that Siri is beta isn't even in the small print on the ads that I saw.
First question, what ads are you referring to?
Are they the same type of ads that Google had for over 6 years for Google Maps, which most people didn't realize that they were beta. In fact now on the home site of their latest version, i.e., Google Maps Navigation for Android, there is no mention that it is Beta and one would be hard pressed to see it, even and, until you go onto the Google Play site.
My point is that for Siri to work at all, it has to learn. And will never stop learning to work well. It will never be perfect. But I suggest that it is more perfect than Googling is right now. And until someone examines the millions of results it gets for virtually every query and determines that it is more accurate I will continue to stand by my position. Imagine one taking a exam and giving literally millions of answers each time. Think they will pass.
Try, "How do I get to New York city?" Siri gives one correct answer. Google gives you over 3 and a half million, but not one comes close to being correct.
Are they the same type of ads that Google had for over 6 years for Google Maps, which most people didn't realize that they were beta. In fact now on the home site of their latest version, i.e., Google Maps Navigation for Android, there is no mention that it is Beta and one would be hard pressed to see it, even and, until you go onto the Google Play site.
I've never seen a TV ad for Google Maps. When did you see one?
The TV ads for Siri. I have no problem with Apple promoting beta software or services (this is the second reiteration of that point that I've made), but in order to argue "it's beta" as a defense, I think they could easily do a better job telling people up front that it's beta.
Sadly, Gene Munster found that Siri "... is two years behind Google." So, a service designed primarily as a personal assistant which is only eight months old is already nearly as good when used as a search engine as a competing service primarily designed as a search engine which is fifteen years old.
Gene Munster also found that "Google replies accurately 86% of the time."
Seems likely to me that many of the inaccuracies and inadequacies of Siri as a search engine are the result of Google Search.
I find it amazing that anyone would continue to use a search engine with only 86% accurate results. Great news that Apple continues to develop Siri and displace Google from more results.
why does the accent thing always comes up in this articles about siri. It is obviously not an issue if it is rated b+ on comprehension, it is actually a short coming of the software. other software has a training in setup that usually gets around any accent issues. after that they are usually fairly accurate. the main problem was due to siri understanding what was being asked, then after looking it up online getting the wrong answer. Steve Woz had the same criticism.. I consider this argument to be racist when people actually don't know how the person speaks and alludes it to be the problem. people all over the country have different accents from New York to Boston Texas and Oregon.
I consider this argument to be racist when people actually don't know how the person speaks and alludes it to be the problem.
people all over the country have different accents from New York to Boston Texas and Oregon.
??? We're talking about say different accents in the US, UK, Australia, etc. for English alone... That's no small feat for advanced speech recognition with very, very little per-user training at the start. What argument is racist?
why does the accent thing always comes up in this articles about siri.
It is obviously not an issue if it is rated b+ on comprehension, it is actually a short coming of the software. other software has a training in setup that usually gets around any accent issues. after that they are usually fairly accurate.
the main problem was due to siri understanding what was being asked, then after looking it up online getting the wrong answer.
Steve Woz had the same criticism..
I consider this argument to be racist when people actually don't know how the person speaks and alludes it to be the problem.
people all over the country have different accents from New York to Boston Texas and Oregon.
Since you mentioned Steve Wozniak, here is what he said:
'What are the five largest lakes in California?' and it came up one, two, three four five -- shocked me," Wozniak said, according to the Albany (N.Y.) Times Union. "And then I said, 'What are the prime numbers greater than 87?' and it came up starting with 91. That's pretty incredible."
"I'd say, 'What are the five largest lakes in California?' and it would have all these lakefront properties selling," Wozniak said. "And I'd say 'What are the prime numbers greater than 87?' and [Siri would answer], like, 'prime rib.'" ...
Siri has never been an advertising platform like Google Search. If Siri provided such answers then such is the result of Siri integration with Google Search. Incidentally, upon asking Siri these same questions, the answers I received were correct and concise.
Siri now does far, far more as a key component of iOS 6 "Sundance" than as an independent app developed by SRI.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
So tell us what was done with bias in the comparison I provided.
You simply ignored all the contradictory evidence or lack of evidence. The blindness to protocol led to confirmation bias in your assessment that Munster's study was scientific.
Quote:
Originally Posted by q2h
When intelligent people are forced to consume, they do research and use their knowledge to determine what is best for them.
If you need all you information from a commercial and are mad at Apple for somehow misleading you with theirs, I know where you stand.
This skirts the issue. If you were shopping for food in the store and found what seemed to be a prepared vegetarian dish, and nothing on the package stated otherwise, you would assume that you shouldn't need to go home and go to the manufacturer's site, and look up the dish in their index to find that it actually was not truly vegetarian. And the single place you could find this would be to go to this page, it wouldn't be on the posters in the stores or commercials on TV. Fortunately, here in the US you couldn't sell food this way. That in electronics it is another story simply means just that, it doesn't mean anyone who bought an iPhone and never saw this disclaimer is an idiot.
Half the people I know who have iPhones have never been to the Apple site for this purpose. When you say "When intelligent people are forced to consume they do research and use their knowledge to determine what is best for them" you're making a huge sweeping generalization that Aunt Minnie and Grandpa Joe, who don't spend much time tinkering online, are exactly like us. We have a bucketload of iPhones in my extended family, including some oldsters. The fact is that they don't really care if Siri works perfectly or not and they love their phones but none of them could answer the "Is Siri beta?" question, and I doubt they've ever been to the Apple site to look up iPhone info. They didn't know they had to!!! Idiots? Nope. Like I say, they don't feel misled because they love their iPhones, don't rely on Siri and half of them don't know what beta means. But that's not the point. It's been successfully shifted off the radar.
Ask the next 50 people you meet on the street with iPhones the Siri/beta question. How many could answer it? According to you those that couldn't are dolts (and deserve what they get?) I disagree with that generalized assumption.
I'll address them below. Also, I covered consumer intelligence.
Keep up the veiled insults, it's a good explanation.
You'll learn for what later.
I suppose you don't consider "iPhone 4S owners" to be a 'review group'.
Yes. You inform through using it. Any time you correct something it got wrong, you're informing Apple. Any time you enunciate further, you're informing Apple. They said this at launch.
Nope.
No software is flawless, so there's no implication of anything.
Agreed. I'm surprised the commercials are allowed to not say "beta". They say "sequences shortened", but nothing about the beta. I'd think the British whatever-it-is would be all over that (unless they DO do it there…).
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM
The part I am disappointed with is the only place the beta is noted is on the web site. The TV ads I've seen certainly don't say it's beta, and I hadn't seen it noted on the store displays. It just seems wrong to advertise it as your flagship feature and not make it clear in all your marketing materials that it's beta.
And under what law or sense of morality would that have to fall under?
According to the University of Ohio, for example, Apple's designation is perfectly correct.
Quote:
A beta version or beta release software usually is the first version of a computer program that implements all features in the initial software requirements specification and is considered an intermediate stage. It can be unstable but useful. Generally considered a preview stage where testers (sometimes, the general public) are encouraged to use the beta software and provide feedback for the developers.
Apple has decided, and rightfully so, to label Siri as beta when and where they want to. Considering that Siri will always be in a 'learning' mode, calling it a beta, is a work of genius and is no different than Michelangelo often declaring, "I am still learning," even past his 90th birthday, as well, "It's no accident that services such as Gmail, Google Maps, Flickr, del.icio.us, and the like may be expected to bear a 'Beta' logo for years at a time."
As a matter of fact, Apple has every right to label Siri, Perpetual or Permanent Beta. Google that phrase and checkout the 62 million results.
I didn't say anything about legality. Maybe you're responding to someone else on that point.
I think you misread what I said. I don't have any problem with it being called a beta or that it's made available as part of a shipping product. The problem I have is not making it clear in more of the marketing materials. The fact that Siri is beta isn't even in the small print on the ads that I saw.
Well Australia is quite picky about this kind of stuff. Besides fining Apple for iPad "4G", if they wanted to they could go after Siri. The Australian consumer watchdog may have their hands full though policing companies increasing prices unfairly because of the carbon pricing just starting today in Australia.
It is naughty of Apple. Somebody should make Apple state Siri [Beta] more clearly, otherwise Apple should just remove the Beta status altogether. It's not like an average consumer will be like, "Oh, it's Beta, that's okay then" ~ because outside of our cloistered circles the man/woman on the street has no idea what Beta is, let alone "artificial intelligence".
Apple needs to come off the fence on Siri, "double-down" like Tim said (as they are doing) even further, and go for broke with Siri. There's no turning back now, no need for "Beta"...
I'm quite surprised they haven't already. Maybe Siri works well enough with Australian accents that no one has complained about it.
The problem is with munsters argument is that he is compairing direct text input to an ai on a computer for accuracy. Its not a fair comparison. The text input comes from a human being, the other is a computer ai that is doing astoundingly well from recognizing voice input and then analyzing what you mean or want. Siri will get more accurate with time. It already is.
So text input comes from a human but voice input from a human into siri comes from an AI? Your comment makes absolutely no sense. Siri has been proven unreliable, but your apple colored glasses refuse to allow you to see the truth.
We've a dedicated quote feature that lets you do this more elegantly.
He's noting the additional steps required to make Siri function and how that makes the comparison illegitimate.
Yeah, you're gonna get along well here. ????
Yeah, either that or people here aren't using Siri as much. I have to stick to "British English" as that works best for me, because my accent is not hardcore "aussie" enough and still somewhat British... Well, the way I was taught it, Queen's English and all that LOL.
But yeah. No major rumblings in the mainstream media about Siri. They're probably too busy showing our Treasurer holding up a piece of chicken at a supermarket to prove that there are no cost increases due to the new carbon pricing (tax).
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM
I didn't say anything about legality. Maybe you're responding to someone else on that point.
You are right on both counts. Your point, I guess, was more towards the "morality".
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM
I think you misread what I said. I don't have any problem with it being called a beta or that it's made available as part of a shipping product. The problem I have is not making it clear in more of the marketing materials. The fact that Siri is beta isn't even in the small print on the ads that I saw.
First question, what ads are you referring to?
Are they the same type of ads that Google had for over 6 years for Google Maps, which most people didn't realize that they were beta. In fact now on the home site of their latest version, i.e., Google Maps Navigation for Android, there is no mention that it is Beta and one would be hard pressed to see it, even and, until you go onto the Google Play site.
My point is that for Siri to work at all, it has to learn. And will never stop learning to work well. It will never be perfect. But I suggest that it is more perfect than Googling is right now. And until someone examines the millions of results it gets for virtually every query and determines that it is more accurate I will continue to stand by my position. Imagine one taking a exam and giving literally millions of answers each time. Think they will pass.
Try, "How do I get to New York city?" Siri gives one correct answer. Google gives you over 3 and a half million, but not one comes close to being correct.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Onhka
First question, what ads are you referring to?
Are they the same type of ads that Google had for over 6 years for Google Maps, which most people didn't realize that they were beta. In fact now on the home site of their latest version, i.e., Google Maps Navigation for Android, there is no mention that it is Beta and one would be hard pressed to see it, even and, until you go onto the Google Play site.
I've never seen a TV ad for Google Maps. When did you see one?
The TV ads for Siri. I have no problem with Apple promoting beta software or services (this is the second reiteration of that point that I've made), but in order to argue "it's beta" as a defense, I think they could easily do a better job telling people up front that it's beta.
Gene Munster also found that "Google replies accurately 86% of the time."
Seems likely to me that many of the inaccuracies and inadequacies of Siri as a search engine are the result of Google Search.
I find it amazing that anyone would continue to use a search engine with only 86% accurate results. Great news that Apple continues to develop Siri and displace Google from more results.
It is obviously not an issue if it is rated b+ on comprehension, it is actually a short coming of the software. other software has a training in setup that usually gets around any accent issues. after that they are usually fairly accurate.
the main problem was due to siri understanding what was being asked, then after looking it up online getting the wrong answer.
Steve Woz had the same criticism..
I consider this argument to be racist when people actually don't know how the person speaks and alludes it to be the problem.
people all over the country have different accents from New York to Boston Texas and Oregon.
??? We're talking about say different accents in the US, UK, Australia, etc. for English alone... That's no small feat for advanced speech recognition with very, very little per-user training at the start. What argument is racist?
What the heck does accent have to do with race? I consider racism racism when it isn't racism in the slightest.
Since you mentioned Steve Wozniak, here is what he said:
'What are the five largest lakes in California?' and it came up one, two, three four five -- shocked me," Wozniak said, according to the Albany (N.Y.) Times Union. "And then I said, 'What are the prime numbers greater than 87?' and it came up starting with 91. That's pretty incredible."
"I'd say, 'What are the five largest lakes in California?' and it would have all these lakefront properties selling," Wozniak said. "And I'd say 'What are the prime numbers greater than 87?' and [Siri would answer], like, 'prime rib.'" ...
Siri has never been an advertising platform like Google Search. If Siri provided such answers then such is the result of Siri integration with Google Search. Incidentally, upon asking Siri these same questions, the answers I received were correct and concise.
Siri now does far, far more as a key component of iOS 6 "Sundance" than as an independent app developed by SRI.