The UN DOES have jurisdiction in the EU. Typical ignorant American thinking they're the only country in the world.
That's a shame for typical ignorant Europeans. The US will never allow itself to get played or to be dictated to by the moronic UN, which represents the greatest threat to world peace and freedom currently in existence. The US won't bail you guys out again and save your asses after it's too late, like we have done in the past.
[" url="/t/151141/un-looks-to-slow-wireless-tech-patent-war-with-patent-roundtable#post_2142316"]The US won't bail you guys out again and save your asses after it's too late, like we have done in the past.
But we will keep giving money to every single other country in the world, despite their political alignment or need for the money during our own economic hardship… for no reason, apparently.
But we will keep giving money to every single other country in the world, despite their political alignment or need for the money during our own economic hardship… for no reason, apparently.
Yes, I can't disagree with you on that, unfortunately.
A patent cannot be essential to a standard unless it is already/or will be pledged to a standard. By this it means that the patent owner willingly puts forth its patents under the assumption of FRAND, willing to license to anyone.
By definition, a patent can't be "essential" to a standard if it is not part of a standard. If it is part of a standard then it has be to licensed on frand terms, according to the ITU, ISO, and IEEE.
From ETSI:
"For the avoidance of doubt in exceptional cases where a STANDARD can only be implemented by technical solutions, all of which are infringements of IPRs, all such IPRs shall be considered ESSENTIAL."
Going further than that despite Microsoft's loud and long protests to the EU, they were ordered to not only license their server tech including appropriate patents, but told it would be on FRAND terms, available to all competitors.
From MS: "The Commission also held that Microsoft violated EU competition law by failing to disclose to competitors some of its most innovative technologies relating to “server” operating systems (i.e., back-office computers that help run networks). The Commission reached this conclusion despite the fact that many of the world’s most powerful IT companies, such as IBM, Sun Microsystems, Hewlett-Packard, Novell, and Red Hat, compete vigorously in the supply of server operating systems. The Commission ordered Microsoft to create extensive documents describing its complex and innovative technologies – many of which are protected by patents and trade secrets – and to license these technologies to competitors. In recent months, the Commission has broadened the scope of this compulsory license considerably by holding that Microsoft: (i) must license these technologies even outside Europe; (ii) must license these technologies royalty-free; and (iii) cannot prevent licensees from disclosing Microsoft trade secrets in their source code."
As for your comments on Mr. Mueller, if you spent much time here you might know that FOSSPatents is one of my three go-to sources on patent litigation, the other two being PatentlyO and Groklaw. In the case of Mr. Mueller, he almost always has the facts he chooses to use correct, which is admirable and a good reason for my daily visits to his blog. He just doesn't mention any that might not be beneficial to Microsoft's goals (nor Oracle's now). You never found it odd that there's not even one article at FOSSPatents criticising Microsoft?
Motorola isn't saying "that's the way it should work". On the contrary it's the way it does work, and there's little doubt Mr. Mueller is well aware of that. Since it doesn't advance Microsoft's arguments to have a mention by Mueller that MS partner Nokia reportedly wants 2.5% of a finished consumer-ready device cost for a single patent, up to 5% for 10 or more, he's not going to say a word about it. Qualcomm wants 3.5% of a completed device price not just a chipset, but don't expect FOSSPatents to mention it since it's an inconvenient fact. And those are just the two of the bigger ones. According to the ETSI, companies from Ericsson to Alcatel, and ZTE to Huawei receive royalty payments based on a percentage of a finished consumer device's price. It's not the rarity that "someone" apparently convinced you it is.
I believe Microsoft's goal, Apple's as well, is to isolate Motorola as a rogue patent claimant, basing royalties on the "ridiculous notion" of a finished device. Pointing out that it's a common royalty basis for FRAND royalties in the telecom industry would not support his client's claims would it? How else to explain his failure to mention it while portraying Moto as an outlier. I believe this is all about competition and holding an advantage, and less about belief by any of the parties that it's "unfair" or unusual.
So contrary to what you might think, yes I do read every single article that's posted at FOSSPatents. I also read the Twitter links he offers to better understand his sources and views. But I don't trust him to tell me the whole story. He's paid to offer support to his clients, Oracle and Microsoft among others, and IMO that support appears to extend into his personal blogs, evidenced by the total lack of any concerns or criticisms written about them. He's great with the facts. Just realize he'll dole out only those that aren't at odds with his clients gameplans as far as I can see.
Would I go so far as to say Motorola or Samsung's use of SEP's to seek injunctions is proper? No sir. Nor do I necessarily agree with a device BOM being the proper royalty basis in all cases but at the same time that's been seen as proper, even by Microsoft, for a long time. Neither Apple nor Microsoft should be able to avoid paying the same royalties requested from other licensees (with credit for patents granted back in return, ie cross-licensing) and there should be consequences. I don't see any obvious reason those penalties could not be determined by a court, altho they should seldom get that far IMO. I don't support injunctions as a proper cure except in the possible case that an infringer absolutely refuses to pay royalties under any circumstance and in opposition to court rulings..
You are of course entitled to your opinion, but are you aware that some of the countries that are most in favor of the UN getting more involved in the internet are some of the worst and most restrictive countries on the face of the planet? It's no surprise that censor happy and not free countries like China and Russia are in favor of the UN gaining more control of the internet and countries like the US are very much opposed to it. The more the UN is involved in something, the more restrictions will happen. Dictators and murderers all over the world are wishing for the UN to take over the internet, as they will be the ones who benefit the most from it.
you do take the China money though but you still call them names and they are the one to fund the us standard of living...what a world!! like the US is a democracy..yeah right
you do take the China money though but you still call them names and they are the one to fund the us standard of living...what a world!! like the US is a democracy..yeah right
A huge percentage (> 70%) of the articles on AI's front page involves some kind of legal dispute or issue. It's very depressing. I've slowed my visits to AI because instead of Apple new about upcoming hardware, reviews of apps or software, we're treated to this legal shit.
I'm an Apple fan about it's products, period.
Upcoming hardware? What? Since when? It's mostly rumors. This is rumors and news site not some Apple Prediction and Time-Line site. How is it depressing? It's more amusing and entertaining than depressing. Nations in Africa are depressing, not Apple's legal war. Go outside sometimes, its nice.
The UN has no jurisdiction over these issues whatsoever. Last time I checked, the US is a sovereign nation. Who the hell do they think they are?
In a way they do. Look up WIPO. Though I think WIPO is best to considered an intermediary for patent enforcement. But mostly you're right about that. I think the meeting is meant to foster some kind of discussion on how to deal with patents in industry standards. Maybe a more thorough vetting process on submitted technologies.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by pragmatous
The UN DOES have jurisdiction in the EU. Typical ignorant American thinking they're the only country in the world.
That's a shame for typical ignorant Europeans. The US will never allow itself to get played or to be dictated to by the moronic UN, which represents the greatest threat to world peace and freedom currently in existence. The US won't bail you guys out again and save your asses after it's too late, like we have done in the past.
But we will keep giving money to every single other country in the world, despite their political alignment or need for the money during our own economic hardship… for no reason, apparently.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
But we will keep giving money to every single other country in the world, despite their political alignment or need for the money during our own economic hardship… for no reason, apparently.
Yes, I can't disagree with you on that, unfortunately.
Reposted here, the more appropriate thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spacepower
I think your missing the order of events here...
A patent cannot be essential to a standard unless it is already/or will be pledged to a standard. By this it means that the patent owner willingly puts forth its patents under the assumption of FRAND, willing to license to anyone.
By definition, a patent can't be "essential" to a standard if it is not part of a standard. If it is part of a standard then it has be to licensed on frand terms, according to the ITU, ISO, and IEEE.
From ETSI:
"For the avoidance of doubt in exceptional cases where a STANDARD can only be implemented by technical solutions, all of which are infringements of IPRs, all such IPRs shall be considered ESSENTIAL."
Going further than that despite Microsoft's loud and long protests to the EU, they were ordered to not only license their server tech including appropriate patents, but told it would be on FRAND terms, available to all competitors.
From MS: "The Commission also held that Microsoft violated EU competition law by failing to disclose to competitors some of its most innovative technologies relating to “server” operating systems (i.e., back-office computers that help run networks). The Commission reached this conclusion despite the fact that many of the world’s most powerful IT companies, such as IBM, Sun Microsystems, Hewlett-Packard, Novell, and Red Hat, compete vigorously in the supply of server operating systems. The Commission ordered Microsoft to create extensive documents describing its complex and innovative technologies – many of which are protected by patents and trade secrets – and to license these technologies to competitors. In recent months, the Commission has broadened the scope of this compulsory license considerably by holding that Microsoft: (i) must license these technologies even outside Europe; (ii) must license these technologies royalty-free; and (iii) cannot prevent licensees from disclosing Microsoft trade secrets in their source code."
http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/legal/european/EU_Competition_Overview.mspx
As for your comments on Mr. Mueller, if you spent much time here you might know that FOSSPatents is one of my three go-to sources on patent litigation, the other two being PatentlyO and Groklaw. In the case of Mr. Mueller, he almost always has the facts he chooses to use correct, which is admirable and a good reason for my daily visits to his blog. He just doesn't mention any that might not be beneficial to Microsoft's goals (nor Oracle's now). You never found it odd that there's not even one article at FOSSPatents criticising Microsoft?
Motorola isn't saying "that's the way it should work". On the contrary it's the way it does work, and there's little doubt Mr. Mueller is well aware of that. Since it doesn't advance Microsoft's arguments to have a mention by Mueller that MS partner Nokia reportedly wants 2.5% of a finished consumer-ready device cost for a single patent, up to 5% for 10 or more, he's not going to say a word about it. Qualcomm wants 3.5% of a completed device price not just a chipset, but don't expect FOSSPatents to mention it since it's an inconvenient fact. And those are just the two of the bigger ones. According to the ETSI, companies from Ericsson to Alcatel, and ZTE to Huawei receive royalty payments based on a percentage of a finished consumer device's price. It's not the rarity that "someone" apparently convinced you it is.
http://www.ecommercetimes.com/story/56757.html
http://www.qualcomm.com/media/documents/ltewimax-patent-licensing-statement#node-10731
http://www.investorvillage.com/uploads/82827/files/LESI-Royalty-Rates.pdf
I believe Microsoft's goal, Apple's as well, is to isolate Motorola as a rogue patent claimant, basing royalties on the "ridiculous notion" of a finished device. Pointing out that it's a common royalty basis for FRAND royalties in the telecom industry would not support his client's claims would it? How else to explain his failure to mention it while portraying Moto as an outlier. I believe this is all about competition and holding an advantage, and less about belief by any of the parties that it's "unfair" or unusual.
So contrary to what you might think, yes I do read every single article that's posted at FOSSPatents. I also read the Twitter links he offers to better understand his sources and views. But I don't trust him to tell me the whole story. He's paid to offer support to his clients, Oracle and Microsoft among others, and IMO that support appears to extend into his personal blogs, evidenced by the total lack of any concerns or criticisms written about them. He's great with the facts. Just realize he'll dole out only those that aren't at odds with his clients gameplans as far as I can see.
Would I go so far as to say Motorola or Samsung's use of SEP's to seek injunctions is proper? No sir. Nor do I necessarily agree with a device BOM being the proper royalty basis in all cases but at the same time that's been seen as proper, even by Microsoft, for a long time. Neither Apple nor Microsoft should be able to avoid paying the same royalties requested from other licensees (with credit for patents granted back in return, ie cross-licensing) and there should be consequences. I don't see any obvious reason those penalties could not be determined by a court, altho they should seldom get that far IMO. I don't support injunctions as a proper cure except in the possible case that an infringer absolutely refuses to pay royalties under any circumstance and in opposition to court rulings..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][
You are of course entitled to your opinion, but are you aware that some of the countries that are most in favor of the UN getting more involved in the internet are some of the worst and most restrictive countries on the face of the planet? It's no surprise that censor happy and not free countries like China and Russia are in favor of the UN gaining more control of the internet and countries like the US are very much opposed to it. The more the UN is involved in something, the more restrictions will happen. Dictators and murderers all over the world are wishing for the UN to take over the internet, as they will be the ones who benefit the most from it.
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-06-01/is-the-un-the-next-big-threat-to-internet-freedom
you do take the China money though but you still call them names and they are the one to fund the us standard of living...what a world!! like the US is a democracy..yeah right
There're so many things incorrect in this post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by superdx
A huge percentage (> 70%) of the articles on AI's front page involves some kind of legal dispute or issue. It's very depressing. I've slowed my visits to AI because instead of Apple new about upcoming hardware, reviews of apps or software, we're treated to this legal shit.
I'm an Apple fan about it's products, period.
Upcoming hardware? What? Since when? It's mostly rumors. This is rumors and news site not some Apple Prediction and Time-Line site. How is it depressing? It's more amusing and entertaining than depressing. Nations in Africa are depressing, not Apple's legal war. Go outside sometimes, its nice.
In a way they do. Look up WIPO. Though I think WIPO is best to considered an intermediary for patent enforcement. But mostly you're right about that. I think the meeting is meant to foster some kind of discussion on how to deal with patents in industry standards. Maybe a more thorough vetting process on submitted technologies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][
The person who gave your post a thumbs up in this thread was me. I certainly regret that now, and I wish that I could take that back.
My post was actually directed at the Shaun, UK post, not yours. Sorry for the confusion.