Interestingly enough, the lifetime of a HDD has little to do with its useage. A study done a couple of years ago showed that even new, unopened drives had the same reliability issues as drives that were used for the same amount of time that the other drives were on the shelf. I've got a bunch of bad HDD's in my computer room. I don't keep a drive after three years of use, as that's when failures begin to rise. You may get lucky though. Some drives last much longer. But it's still a crapshoot.
Interesting. I'll say you beat me there assuming you have good info. Now, then it's 120 vs 40 every 3 years
Though, I'd say I've had better luck than that with HDD except I had a western digital die about 2-4 weeks after getting it in my dell
"play simple games" which are usually done with flash, well that is out. So iPad can't do that
I don't play games on my computers, if i ever do, they aren't "simple" and a mouse is needed. However, of the people I know that play games a lot. They say playing games on a computer is more enjoyable, and i would agree. But it is certainly more handy to play them on an iPad.
Printing letters/pictures? I know I am not "up-to-date" considering I have other places my money needs to go. But, the iPad doesn't support USB printers? Given, it has no USB. Plus it can not get the pictures off of a digital camera.
Anyway, even my mom will need that dumb PC to back up her iPhone and iPad. If only the iPad had a USB, it'd win a lot more people over.
But i still love my iPad 2 haha
there are plenty of great games in the app store.
printing - I just bought my daughter a printer for college, she can print directly to it from her iPad
icloud is the backup. And it's free for up to 5 gigs.
fact is, the iPad can do all of the tasks you listed and a lot more, and does them quite well. The specific connections used to accomplish those tasks are totally irrelevant to if it's a computer or not.
I'm an Apple fan, but it's amazing to see HP go downhill like this. They were a great company. 9 BILLION in a quarter. Wow.
Yeah, pretty soon that'll add up to real money. :-(
I think that the way to look at this whole situation is that the iPad has disrupted the computer market, just as the iPhone did the cellphone market. It's thrown established assumptions about how you get personal computing done, and who sells what kind of equipment to make that happen, into disarray and confusion. Previously you had Dell and HP and the others slugging it out for unit share and ever-slimmer profits in a commoditized market (plus Apple as a profitable, high end niche player). Then Apple lobs the iPad into the middle of the old reality like a hand grenade with the pin pulled. Now the old players are trying to adjust to a new reality, suffering in the process, and failing miserably in their attempts to match the iPad with their own tablets. Couple that with the forthcoming Windows 8, which because of the difficulty of upgrading to later Win versions tends to mean a new PC purchase then but not now, and it all adds up to severe weakness in the PC market.
The truth is that the iPad has expanded the field of what people previously thought constitutes a computer, and many users have found that it's exactly what they didn't know they wanted.
The iPad has nothing to do with HP's quarterly loss. The reason for the loss is HP has one of the highest failure rates and their systems have so much bloatware on them it takes 5 mins too boot. I see more and more consumers moving to the Macbook Air. Everyone is trying to get on the ultrabook ride and to date the only one that comes close to the Macbook Air is the Asus Zenbook Prime. Even that falls short.
Also look at the new 15" Macbook Pro with Retina display and 256gb of solid state storage. I see forums where some complain that it is just too expensive. If we think back there was a time when the entry level 15" pro was close to the price of the current entry level Retina display. With those specs and a 200.00 education discount that doesn't seem like a bad deal at all.
The iPhone and iPad get the most press. I think it is often overlooked at how good the Macbook pro and Air lineup is and how good Mountain Lion is compared to Windows 7. Everyone is moving towards the ultrabook lineup and I simply see the Air taking the vast majority of that business.
While the iPad may have an impact on some level to the personal computer lineup I don't believe it's at big as some make it out to be, cosumers are going to buy the iPad in addition to a personal computer based on the old definition.
Apple is working hard to have the iPhone, iPad and Mac lineup work perfectly together. It's at least my opinion with and iPhone, iPad and Mac their isn't anything you can't do either for personal use or business.
+++ QFT
And there are some things that cannot be done any other way than with the Apple offerings!
icloud is the backup. And it's free for up to 5 gigs.
fact is, the iPad can do all of the tasks you listed and a lot more, and does them quite well. The specific connections used to accomplish those tasks are totally irrelevant to if it's a computer or not.
Like I said, its a matter of opinion. And thats cool that you can buy a printer for your daughter that works, my printer is GREAT but doesn't work with my ipad and i will not WASTE money buying another one. (not at all saying you did, i assume she needed one)
Games on the app store are cool, but they can sometimes be limited by the lack of mouse or keyboard.
Cloud services are great, but tend to be an expensive alternative to HDD or DVDs. I have well over 5Gb in pictures and videos alone on my iphone collected over 2 years and i do not use it much. But high res pictures and videos will need some space.
Adapter, adapter, and next thing you know? just buy an ultrabook. Look I love apple products. But, the iPad IMO (maybe not yours) is not there yet. I wouldn't consider an iphone a PC either (dont use the whole definition of the fact it computes stuff, so does my 20 dollar calculator, is that a computer? sorta but the type we are talking? no, by no means) an iphone is a smartphone, not a computer an ipad is a tablet not a tablet PC or a PC.
Crazy, cause i did a google search, and even STEVE JOBS himself, said its not a PC as we know it. Which is what i am aruging.
The iPad has nothing to do with HP's quarterly loss. The reason for the loss is HP has one of the highest failure rates and their systems have so much bloatware on them it takes 5 mins too boot. I see more and more consumers moving to the Macbook Air. Everyone is trying to get on the ultrabook ride and to date the only one that comes close to the Macbook Air is the Asus Zenbook Prime. Even that falls short.
Also look at the new 15" Macbook Pro with Retina display and 256gb of solid state storage. I see forums where some complain that it is just too expensive. If we think back there was a time when the entry level 15" pro was close to the price of the current entry level Retina display. With those specs and a 200.00 education discount that doesn't seem like a bad deal at all.
The iPhone and iPad get the most press. I think it is often overlooked at how good the Macbook pro and Air lineup is and how good Mountain Lion is compared to Windows 7. Everyone is moving towards the ultrabook lineup and I simply see the Air taking the vast majority of that business.
While the iPad may have an impact on some level to the personal computer lineup I don't believe it's at big as some make it out to be, cosumers are going to buy the iPad in addition to a personal computer based on the old definition.
Apple is working hard to have the iPhone, iPad and Mac lineup work perfectly together. It's at least my opinion with and iPhone, iPad and Mac their isn't anything you can't do either for personal use or business.
I would call HP's QA a factor but the charts I've seen since the iPad's debut in 2010 are too coincidental to say that the iPad has nothing to do with it. Even with Mac sales we're seeing a decline in its growth because of the iPad.
In a nut shell HPs biggest problem! I have no doubt that Apples iPad impacts HP some, but having crap products is a far bigger problem for HP. Even their printer lineup has turned to crap so blaming Apple is more than a bit out of place.
I remember back in the '50s when Hewlett-Packard made the best oscilloscopes, and other fine test equipment.
Yep, and the spun off company is still making them and is still very successful. Which makes you wonder if all the people with the brains in the organization left to work for Agilent. More importantly is HP the tech sectors next Kodak? I ask because Agilent isn't the only successful spin off that left the parent company to rot.
I suspect the answer to that question is that no, HP isn't completely dead yet. However they do need new leadership that has more than half a clue. The PC industry is ripe for innovation as SoC technology moves us to far more compact and capable devices. The need for "PCs", that is desktop machines, won't go away but but it is a changing market. They need to adapt and that takes somebody with vision.
Your perspective here is more than a bit screwed up. First off even Apple doesn't market the iPad as a replacement for a computer for people that need what a MBP does. However iPad is a far better choice for a computing device for those that really don't need a machine that runs Winows or MacOS.
In any event your approach to classifying the iPad is screwed up, it is a computer simply because I can program it to do what I want within the capabilities of the device. I can do that via XCode or the various programmable apps available on the device. Frankly my little iPad 3 is more capable than many of the computer I've owned in the past in that regard.
Lol, once again, being an Apple form. Of course this will happen.
Now thats where it comes in as "is and is not." Your opinion = is; mine = is,is not Why? I can't run heavy programs on it, I can't do 3D modeling, and even if i could, it'd be hell without a mouse or a stylus (a fine point). However, my mom has replaced her computer altogether with the iPad (3). So is it? Nope Is it not? Nope
It's simply opinion, IMO haha If the iPad were a full computer, why would I just have ordered a Macbook to finish out my college career?
What about the other 70%? So for 30% of the world, the iPad is a full computer? Then you can't say it is because to say it is, means that it surely is.
I can't say a color is blue and expect everyone to agree when 70% of the other people say it is purple.
That said, I've argued the other way around before. You can't just say it is a computer or not, you would have to say something more like it is a mainstream computer for the average user or something
Cause for me, it doesn't do what a computer does; however, i love my iPad as a supplement to my computing experience.
Crazy, cause i did a google search, and even STEVE JOBS himself, said its not a PC as we know it. Which is what i am aruging.
This isn't much of an arguement either. My Z100 wasn't like my Vic20, which wasn't like my Mac Plus, which wasn't like the Linux machines I had, none of which are like my current MBP. A full half of the computing machines I've owned over the years couldn't even run iOS properly if they tried much less fit in the iPad. None of the shortcomings of those old computers made them any less of a computer. My iPhone and iPad are both computers just of a different type than the MBP I own. Just like that old Vic 20 was a far different machine than the old Zeinth or the Linux machines I've had.
I'd really like to see Apples failure rates on their SSDs in their laptops. In theory these should last longer for general use. Infant mortality should be a bit better too.
The problem with HDs is that manufactures have really screwed up on quality control at times. I remember the company buying a series of Dell laptops that had every HD fail within months of use all due to HD failures. Similar quality failures have happened with desktop drives, even enterprise drives. In this case I use the plural form to refer to manufactures because it isn't just one supplier with lax quality.
As a side note in the past I've always expressed frustration with Apple and their reluctance to put the newest HD technology into their machines. Maybe I'm getting old but I've grown to see that as Apple covering its ass and making sure they have proven tech in their machines. The big problem here is that flash based tech is hitting the wall when it comes to durability and longevity, so you have to wonder where Apple is going next for storage.
Interestingly enough, the lifetime of a HDD has little to do with its useage. A study done a couple of years ago showed that even new, unopened drives had the same reliability issues as drives that were used for the same amount of time that the other drives were on the shelf. I've got a bunch of bad HDD's in my computer room. I don't keep a drive after three years of use, as that's when failures begin to rise. You may get lucky though. Some drives last much longer. But it's still a crapshoot.
Lol, once again, being an Apple form. Of course this will happen.
Now thats where it comes in as "is and is not." Your opinion = is; mine = is,is not Why? I can't run heavy programs on it, I can't do 3D modeling, and even if i could, it'd be hell without a mouse or a stylus (a fine point). However, my mom has replaced her computer altogether with the iPad (3). So is it? Nope Is it not? Nope
It's simply opinion, IMO haha If the iPad were a full computer, why would I just have ordered a Macbook to finish out my college career?
It is maybe not the personal computer you need but it is a personal computer, kind of. It's not just a reader but it is also a reader kind of.
I also wish the iPad would gain mouse support etc.
You know when the Mac came on the market, people like you said "it's not a computer because it has a mouse". Real computers have no mouse, only keyboard input, LCI... Yeap ;-)
If I were running HP, my first step would be to look for another job.
Failing that, I think I'd kill most consumer-oriented products and refocus on enterprise/government/academia.
Using SJ's truck/car analogy, I'd turn HP into the best darned truck producer it can be. HP can no more compete with iPads than 1990-era GM could compete with Honda Civics.
I'm willing to bet that you're mostly right. I agree with what SJ said, about desktops and laptops becoming trucks. I doubt I'll never need a Mac Pro, or equivelant, assuming I'm still bothering with what I do on it. But I'll be doing more of that on an iPad.
Even now, when I design parts and such, I use a 3D CAD app on my iPad. The retina display has made that better. Next year, a more powerful CPU and GPU will make it faster.
I definitely have not become as attached to my iPad 3 as you apparently are. I can't imagine doing CAD work with my fat fingers as the cursor/pointer, especially if your CAD program has the same kind of cursor tools that I have in my desktop application. When you have lots of nodes it is sometimes difficult to select them with a mouse. How do you do it with a fingertip? A desktop CAD application is really keyboard intensive. How does an iPad version deal with all the normal keyboard shortcuts?
Anyway I do enjoy using my iPad but it is really frustrating at times. For example someone sent me a PM in this forum and I was unable to do something as simple as select or copy the text out of the message which was important at the time. Very aggravating.
But that was then and this is now and yeah, they're a shitty company now.
HP made the best hand held calculators ever in the 70's and through the 80's. The HP 35 and 45 were incredible devices. They made excellent desktop computers with their own proprietary processor during the 70's and early 80's. Their medical and electronics equipment is still some of the best out there. Their pen plotters and printer plotters are incredible also. The real big problem is when they decided to compete in the volume market and thru out quality (by buying Compaq and lowering HP's stds to those of Compaq) which was the beginning of the end for them with PC's. They made some good moves with 3COM and even Palm if it had been managed correctly. They should have bit the bullet and bailed on the PC market, kept the good printers and other aforementioned quality products and not try to compete on volume. Stay with quality.
What really amazes me is how a company that has a great track record with their founders product let things get so out of line with PC's and got dazzled into trying to make bucks by changing the entire way they had done business up to the point. Maybe they could still survive by hacking off the poisoned part of the company (PC trade) and refocus on the other stuff.
Sad state of affairs that probably has Mr. Bill Hewlett and Mr. Dave Packard spinning in their graves.
Comments
Interesting. I'll say you beat me there assuming you have good info. Now, then it's 120 vs 40 every 3 years
Though, I'd say I've had better luck than that with HDD except I had a western digital die about 2-4 weeks after getting it in my dell
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seankill
A few things:
"play simple games" which are usually done with flash, well that is out. So iPad can't do that
I don't play games on my computers, if i ever do, they aren't "simple" and a mouse is needed. However, of the people I know that play games a lot. They say playing games on a computer is more enjoyable, and i would agree. But it is certainly more handy to play them on an iPad.
Printing letters/pictures? I know I am not "up-to-date" considering I have other places my money needs to go. But, the iPad doesn't support USB printers? Given, it has no USB. Plus it can not get the pictures off of a digital camera.
Anyway, even my mom will need that dumb PC to back up her iPhone and iPad. If only the iPad had a USB, it'd win a lot more people over.
But i still love my iPad 2 haha
there are plenty of great games in the app store.
printing - I just bought my daughter a printer for college, she can print directly to it from her iPad
USB for cameras - Apple sells an adapter
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC531ZM/A/apple-ipad-camera-connection-kit
icloud is the backup. And it's free for up to 5 gigs.
fact is, the iPad can do all of the tasks you listed and a lot more, and does them quite well. The specific connections used to accomplish those tasks are totally irrelevant to if it's a computer or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001
I'm an Apple fan, but it's amazing to see HP go downhill like this. They were a great company. 9 BILLION in a quarter. Wow.
Yeah, pretty soon that'll add up to real money. :-(
I think that the way to look at this whole situation is that the iPad has disrupted the computer market, just as the iPhone did the cellphone market. It's thrown established assumptions about how you get personal computing done, and who sells what kind of equipment to make that happen, into disarray and confusion. Previously you had Dell and HP and the others slugging it out for unit share and ever-slimmer profits in a commoditized market (plus Apple as a profitable, high end niche player). Then Apple lobs the iPad into the middle of the old reality like a hand grenade with the pin pulled. Now the old players are trying to adjust to a new reality, suffering in the process, and failing miserably in their attempts to match the iPad with their own tablets. Couple that with the forthcoming Windows 8, which because of the difficulty of upgrading to later Win versions tends to mean a new PC purchase then but not now, and it all adds up to severe weakness in the PC market.
The truth is that the iPad has expanded the field of what people previously thought constitutes a computer, and many users have found that it's exactly what they didn't know they wanted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by extremeskater
The iPad has nothing to do with HP's quarterly loss. The reason for the loss is HP has one of the highest failure rates and their systems have so much bloatware on them it takes 5 mins too boot. I see more and more consumers moving to the Macbook Air. Everyone is trying to get on the ultrabook ride and to date the only one that comes close to the Macbook Air is the Asus Zenbook Prime. Even that falls short.
Also look at the new 15" Macbook Pro with Retina display and 256gb of solid state storage. I see forums where some complain that it is just too expensive. If we think back there was a time when the entry level 15" pro was close to the price of the current entry level Retina display. With those specs and a 200.00 education discount that doesn't seem like a bad deal at all.
The iPhone and iPad get the most press. I think it is often overlooked at how good the Macbook pro and Air lineup is and how good Mountain Lion is compared to Windows 7. Everyone is moving towards the ultrabook lineup and I simply see the Air taking the vast majority of that business.
While the iPad may have an impact on some level to the personal computer lineup I don't believe it's at big as some make it out to be, cosumers are going to buy the iPad in addition to a personal computer based on the old definition.
Apple is working hard to have the iPhone, iPad and Mac lineup work perfectly together. It's at least my opinion with and iPhone, iPad and Mac their isn't anything you can't do either for personal use or business.
+++ QFT
And there are some things that cannot be done any other way than with the Apple offerings!
Quote:
Originally Posted by alandail
there are plenty of great games in the app store.
printing - I just bought my daughter a printer for college, she can print directly to it from her iPad
USB for cameras - Apple sells an adapter
http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC531ZM/A/apple-ipad-camera-connection-kit
icloud is the backup. And it's free for up to 5 gigs.
fact is, the iPad can do all of the tasks you listed and a lot more, and does them quite well. The specific connections used to accomplish those tasks are totally irrelevant to if it's a computer or not.
Like I said, its a matter of opinion. And thats cool that you can buy a printer for your daughter that works, my printer is GREAT but doesn't work with my ipad and i will not WASTE money buying another one. (not at all saying you did, i assume she needed one)
Games on the app store are cool, but they can sometimes be limited by the lack of mouse or keyboard.
Cloud services are great, but tend to be an expensive alternative to HDD or DVDs. I have well over 5Gb in pictures and videos alone on my iphone collected over 2 years and i do not use it much. But high res pictures and videos will need some space.
Adapter, adapter, and next thing you know? just buy an ultrabook. Look I love apple products. But, the iPad IMO (maybe not yours) is not there yet. I wouldn't consider an iphone a PC either (dont use the whole definition of the fact it computes stuff, so does my 20 dollar calculator, is that a computer? sorta but the type we are talking? no, by no means) an iphone is a smartphone, not a computer an ipad is a tablet not a tablet PC or a PC.
Crazy, cause i did a google search, and even STEVE JOBS himself, said its not a PC as we know it. Which is what i am aruging.
http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-03-02/tech/29977517_1_pc-market-tablet-market-pc-world
I would call HP's QA a factor but the charts I've seen since the iPad's debut in 2010 are too coincidental to say that the iPad has nothing to do with it. Even with Mac sales we're seeing a decline in its growth because of the iPad.
I think this article is incorrect. Isn't most of the loss related to the $8 billion writeoff they are taking this quarter?
http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/260594/hp_takes_8_billion_writedown_on_services_arm.html
In a nut shell HPs biggest problem! I have no doubt that Apples iPad impacts HP some, but having crap products is a far bigger problem for HP. Even their printer lineup has turned to crap so blaming Apple is more than a bit out of place.
Yep, and the spun off company is still making them and is still very successful. Which makes you wonder if all the people with the brains in the organization left to work for Agilent. More importantly is HP the tech sectors next Kodak? I ask because Agilent isn't the only successful spin off that left the parent company to rot.
I suspect the answer to that question is that no, HP isn't completely dead yet. However they do need new leadership that has more than half a clue. The PC industry is ripe for innovation as SoC technology moves us to far more compact and capable devices. The need for "PCs", that is desktop machines, won't go away but but it is a changing market. They need to adapt and that takes somebody with vision.
In any event your approach to classifying the iPad is screwed up, it is a computer simply because I can program it to do what I want within the capabilities of the device. I can do that via XCode or the various programmable apps available on the device. Frankly my little iPad 3 is more capable than many of the computer I've owned in the past in that regard.
This isn't much of an arguement either. My Z100 wasn't like my Vic20, which wasn't like my Mac Plus, which wasn't like the Linux machines I had, none of which are like my current MBP. A full half of the computing machines I've owned over the years couldn't even run iOS properly if they tried much less fit in the iPad. None of the shortcomings of those old computers made them any less of a computer. My iPhone and iPad are both computers just of a different type than the MBP I own. Just like that old Vic 20 was a far different machine than the old Zeinth or the Linux machines I've had.
The problem with HDs is that manufactures have really screwed up on quality control at times. I remember the company buying a series of Dell laptops that had every HD fail within months of use all due to HD failures. Similar quality failures have happened with desktop drives, even enterprise drives. In this case I use the plural form to refer to manufactures because it isn't just one supplier with lax quality.
As a side note in the past I've always expressed frustration with Apple and their reluctance to put the newest HD technology into their machines. Maybe I'm getting old but I've grown to see that as Apple covering its ass and making sure they have proven tech in their machines. The big problem here is that flash based tech is hitting the wall when it comes to durability and longevity, so you have to wonder where Apple is going next for storage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimt
I remember back in the '50s when Hewlett-Packard made the best oscilloscopes, and other fine test equipment.
WOW! I thought I was old :-) I just was born in the '50s... Good to know that there are not only young geeks on this talkback.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seankill
Lol, once again, being an Apple form. Of course this will happen.
Now thats where it comes in as "is and is not." Your opinion = is; mine = is,is not Why? I can't run heavy programs on it, I can't do 3D modeling, and even if i could, it'd be hell without a mouse or a stylus (a fine point). However, my mom has replaced her computer altogether with the iPad (3). So is it? Nope Is it not? Nope
It's simply opinion, IMO haha If the iPad were a full computer, why would I just have ordered a Macbook to finish out my college career?
It is maybe not the personal computer you need but it is a personal computer, kind of. It's not just a reader but it is also a reader kind of.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seankill
I also wish the iPad would gain mouse support etc.
You know when the Mac came on the market, people like you said "it's not a computer because it has a mouse". Real computers have no mouse, only keyboard input, LCI... Yeap ;-)
No, it's not. Most of your statements were factually incorrect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tribalogical
So, you'd position HP to try and compete directly with IBM then?
Better to just find that other job…
Yup and yup.
Lesser of two disasters.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastdoor
If I were running HP, my first step would be to look for another job.
Failing that, I think I'd kill most consumer-oriented products and refocus on enterprise/government/academia.
Using SJ's truck/car analogy, I'd turn HP into the best darned truck producer it can be. HP can no more compete with iPads than 1990-era GM could compete with Honda Civics.
Good analogy...HP is an ice cube.
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross
I'm willing to bet that you're mostly right. I agree with what SJ said, about desktops and laptops becoming trucks. I doubt I'll never need a Mac Pro, or equivelant, assuming I'm still bothering with what I do on it. But I'll be doing more of that on an iPad.
Even now, when I design parts and such, I use a 3D CAD app on my iPad. The retina display has made that better. Next year, a more powerful CPU and GPU will make it faster.
I definitely have not become as attached to my iPad 3 as you apparently are. I can't imagine doing CAD work with my fat fingers as the cursor/pointer, especially if your CAD program has the same kind of cursor tools that I have in my desktop application. When you have lots of nodes it is sometimes difficult to select them with a mouse. How do you do it with a fingertip? A desktop CAD application is really keyboard intensive. How does an iPad version deal with all the normal keyboard shortcuts?
Anyway I do enjoy using my iPad but it is really frustrating at times. For example someone sent me a PM in this forum and I was unable to do something as simple as select or copy the text out of the message which was important at the time. Very aggravating.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SockRolid
HP used to make some incredibly good calculators.
But that was then and this is now and yeah, they're a shitty company now.
HP made the best hand held calculators ever in the 70's and through the 80's. The HP 35 and 45 were incredible devices. They made excellent desktop computers with their own proprietary processor during the 70's and early 80's. Their medical and electronics equipment is still some of the best out there. Their pen plotters and printer plotters are incredible also. The real big problem is when they decided to compete in the volume market and thru out quality (by buying Compaq and lowering HP's stds to those of Compaq) which was the beginning of the end for them with PC's. They made some good moves with 3COM and even Palm if it had been managed correctly. They should have bit the bullet and bailed on the PC market, kept the good printers and other aforementioned quality products and not try to compete on volume. Stay with quality.
What really amazes me is how a company that has a great track record with their founders product let things get so out of line with PC's and got dazzled into trying to make bucks by changing the entire way they had done business up to the point. Maybe they could still survive by hacking off the poisoned part of the company (PC trade) and refocus on the other stuff.
Sad state of affairs that probably has Mr. Bill Hewlett and Mr. Dave Packard spinning in their graves.