This seems to be why they feel they can get away with it, but not at all a explanation for why I can't use my data the way I want to use my data. I was unaware that I could only use my chunk of the internet in the way AT&T allows.
Jailbreaking is a time consuming pain in the ass though.
Only a geek wants to spend that much time fooling around with the guts of their phone and boot-loaders and such and you have to give up on having all the latest stuff as you are always one release behind.
FaceTime is not that big of a deal. Most people don't use it at all or if they do it is usually on WiFi. If you and the person you usually FaceTime with download Skype, you can use that to video chat when there is no WiFi available....or just pay the premium and don't worry about it. That is what AT&T wants you to do. Pay the premium and then rarely use FaaceTime. The perfect profit generation machine.
sounds like Apple could come to rescue by deleting FaceTime and putting it in the App Store as a free download. It seems awfully ridiculous that the only reason they claim to block it is because it is built in to the phone. I have Verizon so I havent heard for sure what they gonna do but I was afraid when i first got the iPhone that they would cripple it by making us use stuff from VZ like they did with BlackBerry.
Wheres a class action lawsuit when its genuinely needed?
Actually, its time for Apple to step up and roll out iOS 6 with an additional option in Facetime to enable calling over 3G after you accept the terms and conditions and accept that if you go over your data allowance it may cost you a lot of money.
Then its out of the carriers hands. What would AT&T do? drop the iPhone? I think not. lol
Holy cow... just, holy cow. I really feel sorry for Americans. You guys pretty much have to pay at léást 40+45 (for smartphone users), plus an average of 20 bucks pér added phone/tablet/laptop. At the very least you'll be paying $85 per month, and that in a time and age where data is incredibly cheap.
I'm incredibly happy we don't have AT&T in Holland, although most of the mobile providers we have here are upping their prices by about 10-25% per half a year for the past 2 years now as well. I think áll mobile providers are trying to hold on to their ancient business model without looking forward, and are still treating their clients like we're idiots. The downside is that we can't really do much about it since mobile phones are so integrated into our sociaty... but it really is a "dear consumer, please bend over for us" situation at the moment.
Bad business...I s**t canned ATT even though I had unlimited data from the first iPhone. The reason was, when I bought a WiFi iPad2 and wanted to tether it to my iPhone4. ATT told me, "Yep, $45 additional a month and oh yeah, you lose your unlimited plan!" What????
ATT sux. Just bad business. The fastest growing sector and least profitable is the "pre-paid" plans. That should tell ATT and Verizon where the future is.
I wish Apple would just buy Sprint and make it $49/mo unlimited for everything. And really put the screws to ATT and Verizon!
Also buy a sat TV company...and bypass the cable companies all together.
Actually, Apple wouldn't have to buy the companies outright they would just have to buy enough "ownership" to direct the strategies!
Oh well, gotta write another $90 check to Sprunt.
Unfortunately, Apple knows the financial future of technology companies rests upon not only the United States of America and Europe but on BRIC (Brazil, Russia, India and China) as well. Purchasing Sprint would actually do very little for Apple although I understand your sentiment.
Regarding purchasing of a cable company, the only real means for Apple prevent the gouging occurring in subscriber television services is to create their own content or enable users to create their own content. To wit, a few companies own a vast majority of cable and satellite broadcasting networks:
A&E Television Networks owns A&E Network. The Biography Channel, Crime & Investigation Network, History, H2, History en Español, Lifetime, Lifetime Movie Network, Lifetime Real Women, Military History.
Comcast owns 51% of NBC Universal which owns Bravo, Bravo HD (eventually renamed Universal HD), Chiller, Cloo, CNBC, CNBC World, E! Entertainment Television, G4, The Golf Channel, MSNBC, mun2, Syfy, ShopNBC, Telemundo, USA Network and the Olympic Games on cable) Versus (now known as NBC Sports Network). NBC Universal Cable also manages the company's investments in The Weather Channel and TiVo.
News Corporation owns Fox News Channel, Fox Business Network, FX, Fox Soccer, Fox Soccer Plus, Fox Movie Channel, Fox Deportes, Fuel TV, Nat Geo Wild, National Geographic Channel, Speed, and the 19 Fox Sports Net channels and Fox owned and operated local broadcast stations.
Turner Broadcasting System, Inc., the subsidiary of Time Warner, owns CNN (as well as CNN Airport Network and CNN International), HLN, TBS, TNT, Cartoon Network, Boomerang, truTV, Turner Classic Movies and The CW Television Network.
Viacom owns BET and spinoff network Centric, Comedy Central, CMT, Logo, MTV and spinoff networks MTV2, Tr3s and Palladia, Nickelodeon, Nick@Nite and spinoff networks TeenNick, Nick Jr. and Nicktoons; VH1 and spinoff network VH1 Classic, Spike and TV Land.
I should add that we cut the cable (aka "cut the cord") mere days before Apple added Hulu Plus to AppleTV (3rd generation) and I haven't looked back. Netflix has a significant catalog of television and movies. We also have a Roku 2 XS for Amazon Prime and UFC. Although I could use AirPlay from our Macs, the quality isn't sufficient for a live streaming event as yet; I suspect 802.11ac will be required for seamwless live streaming from Mac to television via AirPlay. We have poor reception of over-the-air broadcast television as we are nested in a valley. We rent videos from Redbox.
I encourage everyone to at least attempt to cut the cable for a few days. If you can pass a psychological barrier of one month then you will likely never return. Imagine what you can do with an extra $100 per month!
I'm trying to figure this out. Let's say my wife and I have iPhones and want 4GB of data. What is the monthly price? $150? I pay a little more than that now, but my plan is unlimited. Then, if I wanted to add other devices (say an iPad) it would be $20/month PER device.
All of the above is exactly why I'm bailing on AT&T when I upgrade to the new iPhone. Their network sucks. Their pricing structure sucks. Their service sucks. Their coverage sucks. Back to VZW I go.
The Federal Communication Commission's net neutrality rules require that carrier policies be transparent, and prohibits carriers from blocking services that compete with their own.
Because AT&T does not have a "similar preloaded video chat app" to compete with Apple's FaceTime, Quinn said the carrier believes it is not in violation of the FCC's rules on blocking applications.
"The FCC's net neutrality rules do not regulate the availability to customers of applications that are preloaded on phones," Quinn wrote. "Indeed, the rules do not require that providers make available any preloaded apps. Rather, they address whether customers are able to download apps that compete without voice or video telephony services."
Quinn said AT&T still allows users to download video chat applications from the iOS App Store and other mobile application stores. Apple's FaceTime, however, comes built in to the iOS mobile operating system on the iPhone.
"Although the rules don't require it, some preloaded apps are available without charge on phones sold by AT&T, including FaceTime, but subject to some reasonable restrictions," Quinn said. "To date, all of the preloaded video chat applications on the phones we sell, including FaceTime, have been limited to Wi-Fi."
Peiople seem to be misunderstanding this section, either by poor reading comprehension or intentionally. What is being said is not that they can do this b/c FaceTime is a built in app, they are saying they can do this b/c they have no apps of their own that currently do video chats over 3G. Because of this, it is not a competition issue. If AT&T had an app of their own that they pre-loaded on all the phones they sold that was capable of 3G video chats, they would have to allow FaceTime over 3G. Since they don't do this, they feel they are not breaking the net neutrality policies.
Is this pretty nitpicky and douchey? Sure. If they are not mis-stating the policies tho, it would seem they are legally within their rights
I think ATT and Verizon's plans are diabolical. These shared plans are almost insultingly expensive. I know they have to get money to build an infrastructure that has insatiable demands but, wow. I wish there was some way to pool resources so that they weren't all building their own infrastructure. And to not allow FaceTime on it. The very occasional FaceTime user isn't what's using up the bandwidth.
But on that note, c'mon over to Sprint, folks. I love their rates and their customer service has gotten superb. Call quality is great and I've had maybe 2 dropped calls in a dozen years. Data speeds in the DC area were awesome for the pre-iPhone/Android era but *mostly* poor now. I can stream music and use maps fine in even the most rural places but browsing can be weak at times. You probably won't be able to use FaceTime at all right now but when LTE finally comes to your area you won't be charged extra for it.
[Disclaimer: I did work at Sprint 12 years ago but had nothing to do with wireless and am not a shill for them. I. I'm using this plan and got a bit of a discount through this referral which is an open secret. Mods - feel free to redact this portion if you find this seems too much like advertising.]
AT&T has decided to block the built-in Safari, Weather, Stocks, Maps, Notes, Photos, Calendar, Camera, App Store, iTunes, and Reminders apps on the iPhone unless users pay for their more expensive data plan.
When questioned as to the legality of this move, they replied, "Because we can."
In other news, the government to continue to ignore AT&T.
I'm trying to figure this out. Let's say my wife and I have iPhones and want 4GB of data. What is the monthly price? $150? I pay a little more than that now, but my plan is unlimited. Then, if I wanted to add other devices (say an iPad) it would be $20/month PER device.
All of the above is exactly why I'm bailing on AT&T when I upgrade to the new iPhone. Their network sucks. Their pricing structure sucks. Their service sucks. Their coverage sucks. Back to VZW I go.
You realize the Verizon plan costs the exact same right? 2 smartphones, 4GB shared is $150. Tablets cost $10 each to add, Jetpack/Netbook/Notebook/USB costs $20, basic phones cost $30 and more smartphones are $40 each. Smartphones on AT&T have a scaling price depending how much bandwidth you are adding and the add on devices cost exactly the same. I don't see any real change as the 2 companies made their shared plans nearly identical
Call quality is great and I've had maybe 2 dropped calls in a dozen years. Data speeds in the DC area were awesome for the pre-iPhone/Android era but *mostly* poor now. I can stream music and use maps fine in even the most rural places but browsing can be weak at times.
[Disclaimer: I did work at Sprint 12 years ago but had nothing to do with wireless and am not a shill for them. I. I'm using this plan and got a bit of a discount through this referral which is an open secret. Mods - feel free to redact this portion if you find this seems too much like advertising.]
Here in Louisville the data speeds are completely pathetic. Speed test just gave me rates of 0.02Mbps down and 0.46 Mbps up with 1080ms ping on my iPhone 4S. Re-test gave me even worse upload speeds. Sure it's unlimited, but it's slow as crap. This download speed is the worst I have ever seen on it actually. It doesn't like being downtown. I'm on that same plan, which was nice as I got to pay what I was paying when we had our LG Lotus phones and not feel the extra $10/phone smartphone fee. Add $20 for the phones, subtract $20 from the plan cost. I have poor quality as far as dropped calls and calls getting garbled. We just got these phones in Feb, so I'll be eligible for new phones right around the time Apple releases the 2013 iPhone. We'll see where the carriers are by then as far as LTE goes and how the pre-paid market is doing. Love my phone, frustrated by the service, but I know I will pay even more if I go to Verizon or AT&T.
What is Verizon's position? Are they supporting Facetime on umlimited plans? I thought Verizon is forcing all customers to their own tiered plans?
Verizon hasn't said anything specifically about Facetime over Cellular at this point. They are pushing customers to towards their everything plans as well, but the difference is that they are doing it at the time of upgrade. Example: If you are due for an upgrade and you want the phone you're upgrading to to be subsidized, then you have to give up your unlimited plan in favor of one of their everything plans. But, If you buy your phone at the full unsubsidized price, you can keep your unlimited plan. If you don't upgrade then you keep your same plan. While this sucks ass too, it makes more sense to me as at least they're doing it at a time when essentially you're starting a new contract. AT&T is also pushing it's clients towards their everything plans, and even though they're not forcing you, they're doing it by limiting the function of your phone over their network.....Pretty shitty...
Honestly, T-Mobile rocks more and more every day. I have unlimited everything for $50 a month with no contract. If you factor in the subsidized cost of an unlocked iPhone into the works, that is less than an additional $20 a month carried over the two years of a contract.
I'm thinking the same. TMobile & Sprint with unlimited data & cheaper plans. Are their networks really that bad??
Comments
This seems to be why they feel they can get away with it, but not at all a explanation for why I can't use my data the way I want to use my data. I was unaware that I could only use my chunk of the internet in the way AT&T allows.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkVader
As I say every time this comes up:
One word.
Jailbreak.
Jailbreaking is a time consuming pain in the ass though.
Only a geek wants to spend that much time fooling around with the guts of their phone and boot-loaders and such and you have to give up on having all the latest stuff as you are always one release behind.
the (late steve jobs) said (i am paraphasing) "i dont ask what people want, because by the time it is built they want something different"
i think henry ford also said " any color you want as long as it is black".
FaceTime is not that big of a deal. Most people don't use it at all or if they do it is usually on WiFi. If you and the person you usually FaceTime with download Skype, you can use that to video chat when there is no WiFi available....or just pay the premium and don't worry about it. That is what AT&T wants you to do. Pay the premium and then rarely use FaaceTime. The perfect profit generation machine.
sounds like Apple could come to rescue by deleting FaceTime and putting it in the App Store as a free download. It seems awfully ridiculous that the only reason they claim to block it is because it is built in to the phone. I have Verizon so I havent heard for sure what they gonna do but I was afraid when i first got the iPhone that they would cripple it by making us use stuff from VZ like they did with BlackBerry.
Actually, its time for Apple to step up and roll out iOS 6 with an additional option in Facetime to enable calling over 3G after you accept the terms and conditions and accept that if you go over your data allowance it may cost you a lot of money.
Then its out of the carriers hands. What would AT&T do? drop the iPhone? I think not. lol
Holy cow... just, holy cow. I really feel sorry for Americans. You guys pretty much have to pay at léást 40+45 (for smartphone users), plus an average of 20 bucks pér added phone/tablet/laptop. At the very least you'll be paying $85 per month, and that in a time and age where data is incredibly cheap.
I'm incredibly happy we don't have AT&T in Holland, although most of the mobile providers we have here are upping their prices by about 10-25% per half a year for the past 2 years now as well. I think áll mobile providers are trying to hold on to their ancient business model without looking forward, and are still treating their clients like we're idiots. The downside is that we can't really do much about it since mobile phones are so integrated into our sociaty... but it really is a "dear consumer, please bend over for us" situation at the moment.
Leave it to AT&T to shout from the mountain top how their service is inferior compared to the competition.
<facepalm>
Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher126
Bad business...I s**t canned ATT even though I had unlimited data from the first iPhone. The reason was, when I bought a WiFi iPad2 and wanted to tether it to my iPhone4. ATT told me, "Yep, $45 additional a month and oh yeah, you lose your unlimited plan!" What????
ATT sux. Just bad business. The fastest growing sector and least profitable is the "pre-paid" plans. That should tell ATT and Verizon where the future is.
I wish Apple would just buy Sprint and make it $49/mo unlimited for everything. And really put the screws to ATT and Verizon!
Also buy a sat TV company...and bypass the cable companies all together.
Actually, Apple wouldn't have to buy the companies outright they would just have to buy enough "ownership" to direct the strategies!
Oh well, gotta write another $90 check to Sprunt.
Unfortunately, Apple knows the financial future of technology companies rests upon not only the United States of America and Europe but on BRIC (Brazil, Russia, India and China) as well. Purchasing Sprint would actually do very little for Apple although I understand your sentiment.
Regarding purchasing of a cable company, the only real means for Apple prevent the gouging occurring in subscriber television services is to create their own content or enable users to create their own content. To wit, a few companies own a vast majority of cable and satellite broadcasting networks:
A&E Television Networks owns A&E Network. The Biography Channel, Crime & Investigation Network, History, H2, History en Español, Lifetime, Lifetime Movie Network, Lifetime Real Women, Military History.
Comcast owns 51% of NBC Universal which owns Bravo, Bravo HD (eventually renamed Universal HD), Chiller, Cloo, CNBC, CNBC World, E! Entertainment Television, G4, The Golf Channel, MSNBC, mun2, Syfy, ShopNBC, Telemundo, USA Network and the Olympic Games on cable) Versus (now known as NBC Sports Network). NBC Universal Cable also manages the company's investments in The Weather Channel and TiVo.
News Corporation owns Fox News Channel, Fox Business Network, FX, Fox Soccer, Fox Soccer Plus, Fox Movie Channel, Fox Deportes, Fuel TV, Nat Geo Wild, National Geographic Channel, Speed, and the 19 Fox Sports Net channels and Fox owned and operated local broadcast stations.
Turner Broadcasting System, Inc., the subsidiary of Time Warner, owns CNN (as well as CNN Airport Network and CNN International), HLN, TBS, TNT, Cartoon Network, Boomerang, truTV, Turner Classic Movies and The CW Television Network.
Viacom owns BET and spinoff network Centric, Comedy Central, CMT, Logo, MTV and spinoff networks MTV2, Tr3s and Palladia, Nickelodeon, Nick@Nite and spinoff networks TeenNick, Nick Jr. and Nicktoons; VH1 and spinoff network VH1 Classic, Spike and TV Land.
I should add that we cut the cable (aka "cut the cord") mere days before Apple added Hulu Plus to AppleTV (3rd generation) and I haven't looked back. Netflix has a significant catalog of television and movies. We also have a Roku 2 XS for Amazon Prime and UFC. Although I could use AirPlay from our Macs, the quality isn't sufficient for a live streaming event as yet; I suspect 802.11ac will be required for seamwless live streaming from Mac to television via AirPlay. We have poor reception of over-the-air broadcast television as we are nested in a valley. We rent videos from Redbox.
#next_pages_container { width: 5px; hight: 5px; position: absolute; top: -100px; left: -100px; z-index: 2147483647 !important; }I encourage everyone to at least attempt to cut the cable for a few days. If you can pass a psychological barrier of one month then you will likely never return. Imagine what you can do with an extra $100 per month!
I'm trying to figure this out. Let's say my wife and I have iPhones and want 4GB of data. What is the monthly price? $150? I pay a little more than that now, but my plan is unlimited. Then, if I wanted to add other devices (say an iPad) it would be $20/month PER device.
All of the above is exactly why I'm bailing on AT&T when I upgrade to the new iPhone. Their network sucks. Their pricing structure sucks. Their service sucks. Their coverage sucks. Back to VZW I go.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider
The Federal Communication Commission's net neutrality rules require that carrier policies be transparent, and prohibits carriers from blocking services that compete with their own.
Because AT&T does not have a "similar preloaded video chat app" to compete with Apple's FaceTime, Quinn said the carrier believes it is not in violation of the FCC's rules on blocking applications.
"The FCC's net neutrality rules do not regulate the availability to customers of applications that are preloaded on phones," Quinn wrote. "Indeed, the rules do not require that providers make available any preloaded apps. Rather, they address whether customers are able to download apps that compete without voice or video telephony services."
Quinn said AT&T still allows users to download video chat applications from the iOS App Store and other mobile application stores. Apple's FaceTime, however, comes built in to the iOS mobile operating system on the iPhone.
"Although the rules don't require it, some preloaded apps are available without charge on phones sold by AT&T, including FaceTime, but subject to some reasonable restrictions," Quinn said. "To date, all of the preloaded video chat applications on the phones we sell, including FaceTime, have been limited to Wi-Fi."
Peiople seem to be misunderstanding this section, either by poor reading comprehension or intentionally. What is being said is not that they can do this b/c FaceTime is a built in app, they are saying they can do this b/c they have no apps of their own that currently do video chats over 3G. Because of this, it is not a competition issue. If AT&T had an app of their own that they pre-loaded on all the phones they sold that was capable of 3G video chats, they would have to allow FaceTime over 3G. Since they don't do this, they feel they are not breaking the net neutrality policies.
Is this pretty nitpicky and douchey? Sure. If they are not mis-stating the policies tho, it would seem they are legally within their rights
The fact that they are even commenting about this means they're scared. This will get reversed soon enough. Just watch.
Not that it will keep me on AT&T. As soon as the new phones are released this fall, I'm gone.
WORST. COMPANY. EVER.
I think ATT and Verizon's plans are diabolical. These shared plans are almost insultingly expensive. I know they have to get money to build an infrastructure that has insatiable demands but, wow. I wish there was some way to pool resources so that they weren't all building their own infrastructure. And to not allow FaceTime on it. The very occasional FaceTime user isn't what's using up the bandwidth.
But on that note, c'mon over to Sprint, folks. I love their rates and their customer service has gotten superb. Call quality is great and I've had maybe 2 dropped calls in a dozen years. Data speeds in the DC area were awesome for the pre-iPhone/Android era but *mostly* poor now. I can stream music and use maps fine in even the most rural places but browsing can be weak at times. You probably won't be able to use FaceTime at all
[Disclaimer: I did work at Sprint 12 years ago but had nothing to do with wireless and am not a shill for them. I. I'm using this plan and got a bit of a discount through this referral which is an open secret. Mods - feel free to redact this portion if you find this seems too much like advertising.]
AT&T has decided to block the built-in Safari, Weather, Stocks, Maps, Notes, Photos, Calendar, Camera, App Store, iTunes, and Reminders apps on the iPhone unless users pay for their more expensive data plan.
When questioned as to the legality of this move, they replied, "Because we can."
In other news, the government to continue to ignore AT&T.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDW2001
I'm trying to figure this out. Let's say my wife and I have iPhones and want 4GB of data. What is the monthly price? $150? I pay a little more than that now, but my plan is unlimited. Then, if I wanted to add other devices (say an iPad) it would be $20/month PER device.
All of the above is exactly why I'm bailing on AT&T when I upgrade to the new iPhone. Their network sucks. Their pricing structure sucks. Their service sucks. Their coverage sucks. Back to VZW I go.
You realize the Verizon plan costs the exact same right? 2 smartphones, 4GB shared is $150. Tablets cost $10 each to add, Jetpack/Netbook/Notebook/USB costs $20, basic phones cost $30 and more smartphones are $40 each. Smartphones on AT&T have a scaling price depending how much bandwidth you are adding and the add on devices cost exactly the same. I don't see any real change as the 2 companies made their shared plans nearly identical
They don't 'believe,' eh?
Do they 'believe' in class action lawsuits? I 'believe' the time has come.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waverunnr
The fact that they are even commenting about this means they're scared. This will get reversed soon enough. Just watch.
Not that it will keep me on AT&T. As soon as the new phones are released this fall, I'm gone.
WORST. COMPANY. EVER.
Not a speck of AT&T LTE here in Philly. I 'believe' we are done with AT&T as well next month.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddawson100
Call quality is great and I've had maybe 2 dropped calls in a dozen years. Data speeds in the DC area were awesome for the pre-iPhone/Android era but *mostly* poor now. I can stream music and use maps fine in even the most rural places but browsing can be weak at times.
[Disclaimer: I did work at Sprint 12 years ago but had nothing to do with wireless and am not a shill for them. I. I'm using this plan and got a bit of a discount through this referral which is an open secret. Mods - feel free to redact this portion if you find this seems too much like advertising.]
Here in Louisville the data speeds are completely pathetic. Speed test just gave me rates of 0.02Mbps down and 0.46 Mbps up with 1080ms ping on my iPhone 4S. Re-test gave me even worse upload speeds. Sure it's unlimited, but it's slow as crap. This download speed is the worst I have ever seen on it actually. It doesn't like being downtown. I'm on that same plan, which was nice as I got to pay what I was paying when we had our LG Lotus phones and not feel the extra $10/phone smartphone fee. Add $20 for the phones, subtract $20 from the plan cost. I have poor quality as far as dropped calls and calls getting garbled. We just got these phones in Feb, so I'll be eligible for new phones right around the time Apple releases the 2013 iPhone. We'll see where the carriers are by then as far as LTE goes and how the pre-paid market is doing. Love my phone, frustrated by the service, but I know I will pay even more if I go to Verizon or AT&T.
Quote:
Originally Posted by noexpectations
What is Verizon's position? Are they supporting Facetime on umlimited plans? I thought Verizon is forcing all customers to their own tiered plans?
Verizon hasn't said anything specifically about Facetime over Cellular at this point. They are pushing customers to towards their everything plans as well, but the difference is that they are doing it at the time of upgrade. Example: If you are due for an upgrade and you want the phone you're upgrading to to be subsidized, then you have to give up your unlimited plan in favor of one of their everything plans. But, If you buy your phone at the full unsubsidized price, you can keep your unlimited plan. If you don't upgrade then you keep your same plan. While this sucks ass too, it makes more sense to me as at least they're doing it at a time when essentially you're starting a new contract. AT&T is also pushing it's clients towards their everything plans, and even though they're not forcing you, they're doing it by limiting the function of your phone over their network.....Pretty shitty...
Quote:
Originally Posted by TBell
Honestly, T-Mobile rocks more and more every day. I have unlimited everything for $50 a month with no contract. If you factor in the subsidized cost of an unlocked iPhone into the works, that is less than an additional $20 a month carried over the two years of a contract.
I'm thinking the same. TMobile & Sprint with unlimited data & cheaper plans. Are their networks really that bad??