If it was something truly new and amazing in the new iPhone I think we would have heard a rumor by now. There were lots of leaks this year but nothing amazing. I was thinking, well, at least it will bring NFC and if NFC is to succeed Apple can do it!
Really? So, your excuse is that you believe a) all the rumors, and b) that the rumors are exhaustive and authoritative? Despite the fact that, historically, they are usually more wrong than right and are never exhaustive? So, in essence, contrary to all experience with next iPhone rumors, you decided that if it isn't rumored it isn't happening? That we now know everything there is to know about the next iPhone? Oh, and that NFC is the only feature that could possibly be worthwhile? Does that pretty much sum it up?
But can anyone tell me, if Apple uses Bluetooth and not NFC, how will that work? Will it work with NFC terminals? What infrastructure supports payment via bluetooth? I'm asking because I honestly don't know.
Apple's mobile payment solution will only function with Apple devices as Apple will be using a open suite of security protocols in a manner which has not been promoted previously.
As I previously stated, this solves two issues; the go-to-market strategy and provides a marquee feature set unique to the new iPhone which will push sales.
1. Go-to-market strategy. Google made a valiant but failed effort to energize and invigorate the NFC market on Android-based devices. The issue with NFC is that there are few terminals deployed at this time and many Android smartphones are lower priced models which don't offer NFC. Apple can immediately solve this issue because existing (the new iPad and iPhone 4S) and future Apple devices could provide the retail point-of-sale terminal as they have already implemented Bluetooth 4.0. Many retailers already use Apple devices as point-of-sale systems so this makes the entire process easier and more secure. The payment infrastructure will be enabled by iTunes as users will simply add their credit cards to iTunes. The only thing I don't know is how Apple will monetize their solution. Nevermind, Apple won't monetize the feature they will simply sell more devices.
2. The new iPhone does not appear to have a marquee feature ((the original) iPhone multi-touch touchscreen mobile phone, widescreen iPod and an Internet communications device, iPhone 3G App Store, iPhone 3GS, etc.). A successful mobile payment solution is definitely a marquee feature which could push sales. While some may argue that sufficient improvements in processing and graphics as well as communication protocols are marquee features such improvements will not be presented for the new iPhone. (*)
* Please allow me to elaborate:
ARM Cortex A-15 processor architecture is not market ready
PowerVR Series 6 (Rogue) GPU is not market ready
802.11ac Wi-Fi enabled baseband processor is not market ready
12 MP camera sensor (from Omnivision) is not market ready
As a result, the new iPhone will feature LTE as well as a specification bump for the existing processor architecture and 32 nm process and likely 1 GB RAM. While these are significant improvements when reviewed as a whole they are not marquee features.
Really? So, your excuse is that you believe a) all the rumors, and b) that the rumors are exhaustive and authoritative? Despite the fact that, historically, they are usually more wrong than right and are never exhaustive? So, in essence, contrary to all experience with next iPhone rumors, you decided that if it isn't rumored it isn't happening? That we now know everything there is to know about the next iPhone? Oh, and that NFC is the only feature that could possibly be worthwhile? Does that pretty much sum it up?
Yes, the NFC rumor was the only one that could make me buy the new iPhone. I was disappointed with the iPhone 4S (no teardrop iPhone design remember?) and I'm very pessimistic about the new iPhone. On the other hand, if the new iPhone will bring holographic projections like in Star Wars, I will certainly buy it!
It is just me, but Im not big on the phone being the sole source for authorization to pay for things... just call me Mr Luddite!
IMO - need two seperate authorization 'devices'. Say a key fob in my pocket would be one, then a code(or finger reader etc) on the phone.... I know, cumbersome, but Im paranoid and some say dilusional too.
Nobody will force you to use it. I'm sure there will be plenty of people who still love the feel of grubby coins in their pocket.
Meanwhile the rest of us move on to new and more convenient things. If the new iPhone has NFC, and I sincerely hope it does, I look forward to living in a cashless world.
As a result, the new iPhone will feature LTE as well as a specification bump for the existing processor architecture and 32 nm process and likely 1 GB RAM. While these are significant improvements when reviewed as a whole they are not marquee features.
That's exactly what I was saying in my previous post. The next iPhone needs a marquee feature and a widescreen alone won't cut it
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
I agree. I certainly hope there's no dedicated "NFC hardware" in Apple's digital wallet implementation. It has been thrown around a little that they might use Bluetooth, and I certainly hope so, for many reasons.
First, Bluetooth's everywhere. EVERYWHERE. Any other system would have to be built out, and they're not gonna do that. It's just not gonna happen! If it's specialized hardware only on the iPhone, I won't be able to go down to my local grocery store and buy things with my phone for over a decade! And that's even only if the system catches on as a system!
Second, people know Bluetooth. I'm not talking users, I'm talking hardware creators. Accessory makers. They understand it already.
Third, Bluetooth makes it possible for EXISTING iPhones to get this feature, too! Having an installed base of users on DAY ONE will make Apple's version succeed. Having to buy more iPhones to do it… will take far longer.
I mean, okay, picture this. How's this for the future of purchasing:
You drive to the store. Your iPhone knows where you are and reminds you what you're supposed to get. Not only that, it tells you what aisle those things are in, because the store has networked with Apple and uploaded its product layout to them. So you go to the aisle and find what you want. Pick it up, hold up your iPhone, picture of the QR barcode that has replaced the old style barcode on packaging. Now your iPhone knows what it is (1). Read that footnote first, then continue. You read it? Good, continuing. Not only does your iPhone now know what it is, it's on your list now as 'in your cart', because it probably is physically in your cart by now. Do the same with all the other products you want, and then… walk out. Just walk out. When you reach the boundary of the store geofence, your account is charged for the amount of the products in your cart. Just like an Apple Store today, but with every store.
You want a revolution? They'll give you two. One for consumers, one for store owners. First, Apple has psychologically legitimized the behavior formerly known as stealing. It'll take a few years, but we will completely redefine what it means to buy something in a physical store. No more cashiers, no more cash registers, no conveyor belts, no self-checkout machines that never work. Take it, scan it, walk out. All yourself. And even in advance. Make your list of exactly the products you want, pay for it in advance, and don't even scan it in the store; just in, cart, out. Simple.
Second, since each store's inventory and product location is connected to Apple's servers for the purpose of helping customers find what they want and at the best price and where they want to find it, when a customer makes a purchase, that inventory is deducted from the store's immediately at point of purchase. So store owners can see in real-time at any given time what products from what brands are selling best. This can also be uploaded immediately to the product's manufacturers. Product testbeds can give results in weeks instead of months. Manufacturing can be scaled back on existing products selling poorly and scaled up to meet a temporary or permanent demand for others.
(1) Your iPhone now knows this product. It knows you want this product. So it looks around for better prices for this product and tells you if it's cheaper elsewhere or the same price for a greater quantity. Additionally, now that it knows you want this product, in the future when this product is on your list and you get to the store, your iPhone will tell you if this product is currently in stock at the store. Because the store has networked with Apple and allowed Apple devices to check its inventory! And not just Apple devices, ALL devices. You'll see why above.
There was a NYT article that communicated something similar, and although I think that's where we're going in the future I believe that is all 5-10 years out. Also you're idea requires just as much, if not more infrastructure improvements as NFC, because every single retailer would have to change their point of sale architecture. With NFC they just have to add another piece of payment hardware at every register.
Either way adaption would take time globally, but NFC has been around longer and already has retailers that use it. If Apple released it with the next iPhone and the next iPhone sells 50 million the first weekend retailers would wake up and quickly add NFC pay places at all of their locations.
I don't really understand why you're all down on NFC unless you're trying to convince yourselves that you don't want it just in case the next iPhone doesn't include it. First of all, NFC is no more insecure than Bluetooth LE. With regards to making payments, NFC is mostly susceptible to eavesdropping, where a signal is intercepted by a third party; however this issue is diminished by the fact that the range of NFC is about 4 cm (less than 2 inches). Do you think you wouldn't notice someone shoving a device within 2 inches of your phone while you're making a payment? Interestingly, the only eavesdropping-secure pairing method for Bluetooth LE is Out of Band pairing, which uses NFC to transmit the pairing key. References: ( http://developer.bluetooth.org/KnowledgeCenter/TechnologyOverview/Pages/LE-Security.aspx and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluetooth )
As far as locations to pay with NFC, it's definitely a chicken and egg scenario. That said, I'll provide you with a list of stores in my area (Orlando) who currently accept NFC payments: Home Depot, Walgreens, Hess, CVS, 7 Eleven, Sports Authority, Citgo, Pollo Tropical, McDonald's, Petco, Burger King, Foot Locker, Macy's, Sunoco, Einstein Bagels, Racetrac, and Circle K. That's a pretty healthy list, and it's only going to grow.
And Tallest, you're dreaming if you think that Apple using Bluetooth for mobile payments would mean that older devices are given the same capability (see Siri, turn by turn navigation in Apple Maps, and Facetime over 3G for examples).
Awesome post!
Quote:
Originally Posted by NelsonX
Yes, the NFC rumor was the only one that could make me buy the new iPhone. I was disappointed with the iPhone 4S (no teardrop iPhone design remember?) and I'm very pessimistic about the new iPhone. On the other hand, if the new iPhone will bring holographic projections like in Star Wars, I will certainly buy it!
Ok... so you know it's a bigger screen. But you have no idea how the software will change with the increased size. Do you think it's just going to get bigger? Or will there be further features. The answer is you don't know. So sit down, take a breath, and wait 2 weeks- then you'll be able to make a logical (key word) decision.
I want NFC desperately just for the cool (i.e.- nerd) factor and not having to carry my wallet at home depot. But I'll reserve my judgement for an actual phone... like- you know... an actual phone?
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackbook
The whole premise of adding NFC is selling new iPhones, so I doubt they'll open it to older iPhones and iPads.
This. There is a less than 0% chance theyd implement that feature across the board. You know- like a 2011 11" Macbook Air being able to mirror when my 27" BTO iMac cant because it "doesnt posses the processing ability". Or Siri- which can work on a Jailbroke 4 or iPad 2 perfectly. Apple isn't dumb- and I don't think they should have that across the board for everyone- give people incentives to upgrade and have them count the days until their 2 year contract is up so they can have the newest & greatest.
Yes, the NFC rumor was the only one that could make me buy the new iPhone. I was disappointed with the iPhone 4S (no teardrop iPhone design remember?) and I'm very pessimistic about the new iPhone. On the other hand, if the new iPhone will bring holographic projections like in Star Wars, I will certainly buy it!
No, I guess I was wrong, nothing of interest going on in there. Although, I do enjoy the irony that you claim the rumors tell us all and then reference one of the biggest rumor misses ever as an instance of the rumors letting you down.
If I thought you were being candid with us, I'd be very concerned for you
This doesn't surprise me in the least. Apple spoon feeds capabilities to their customers while others provide these capabilities more quickly. In the long run it won't matter because people who buy Apple products are used to this process and/or don't care.
Well, Apple usually has some reasoning behind it. SInce 4G/LTE wasn't rolled out with most of the carriers, it didn't make sense to waste the money on 4G/LTE components if the carriers don't have it rolled out yet. I mean Sprint STILL doesn't have their 4G/LTE completely rolled out.
I just read that the Nexus 7 tablet doesn't do landscape mode without third party app and it doesn't have a built-in camera to take photos and videos. Talk about stupid. I guess Google doesn't care about the most basic of features and functionality.
I think you are onto something here. Using Bluetooth for transactions, and combining them with an easy fingerprint based authentication system would make Apple's payment system far easier to go up to scale, far more secure, and possibly even easier to use. I am excited about this, if true.
Yeah, Apple does do things differently to make life easier. Sometimes they have to flip the paradigm around just to keep their competitors guessing.
With Google, you have to download an app. They can't even get landscape mode on their Nexus 7 tablet or even a freaking camera to take videos and photos. WTF? Google so messed up.
I think apple is catching on to the fact that wallpapers should not be static and we will be seeing some Pretty Neat stuff in iOS 7 like Dynamic Wallpapers. If you can't wait till then, just jailbreak your iDevice and get tweaks such as Panoramic Wallpapers, DeepEnd, vWallpaper, and Barrel2, you can also make the iPhone do a cmd command just like in mac os x with cmdtab. I'm sure Apple will also curve the edge of the wallpapers at the bottom blacking that area out, like they have been on their native apps in iOS 6 to make the apps look less edgy. example..
No, I guess I was wrong, nothing of interest going on in there. Although, I do enjoy the irony that you claim the rumors tell us all and then reference one of the biggest rumor misses ever as an instance of the rumors letting you down.
If I thought you were being candid with us, I'd be very concerned for you
The rumor about NFC has been dismissed by Jim Dalrymple, so to me it's clear that there is no NFC in the new iPhone. I believe that almost all the rumors and leaks that we had this year had been approved by Apple, especially the iPad mini rumor as a response to increase competition. Jim Dalrymple role is to dismiss any false rumor. Dalrymple never dismiss the 4 inch screen, the smaller connector or the LTE. If there were something really amazing in the new iPhone I believe Apple would have intentionally launch the rumor just as they did with the iPad mini after the Nexus 7 and the Surface. We are in 2012 and Apple is not alone in the market anymore!
NFC is used heavily, you just don't know it. In San Francisco, every parking meter and every bus have NFC. Many shops have NFC equipped point-of-sale terminals. In other cities, it's there too. In Korea, Japan, and EU, it is even more widespread. I would not rule-out Apple implementing NFC, not only because it is popular in most of the world, but because doing so has the potential to destabilize the US credit transaction monopoly and bear a new industry in its place -- in which Apple will seemingly own a huge amount of patents. Apple has the clout to do it. Few others have the guts to take on the establishment.
Myth 1: Vendors like Square
They don't. It is clumsy to use, and there is still a transactional middleman. NFC can allow the transactional middleman to be eliminated.
Myth 2: BLE is workable for financial transactions
"Bluetooth Low Energy" is just BT4 geared for low power. It still has the Bluetooth trade-off, which is slow-connection + secure, or fast-connection + hopelessly insecure. With BLE, you need to broadcast your ID all the time in order for it to work effectively. DANGEROUS. Even worse, in secure mode BLE uses 161 bit ECC for public key exchange, and this probably isn't a long enough key to prevent hacking. So BLE is an epic fail, really, for any kind of financial transaction. It wasn't designed for financial transactions.
Myth 3: Fingerprint scanning is secure enough to be used for payment
Apple bought Authentec in what we call a "fire sale." Fingerprint & Biometric scanning is good enough to supply a PIN, but not a cypher itself.
Myth 4: You can't build NFC behind metal
Apple already uses the enclosure as an antenna for other comms.
Notes:
- The combination of fingerprint scanning and NFC is a great idea.
- It is completely plausible that the biometric chip and the NFC chip are stacked together inside the same housing.
Problem 2: Bluetooth Short Range Financial Transactions (SRFT) was specifically designed for financial transactions. The protocol uses asymmetric pairing and Diffie-Hellman key exchange with a higher layer authentication protocol (such as RSA2048). Apple may choose to create a One Time Password (OTP) via Cryptographically Secure Pseudo Random Number Generator (CSPRNG) once device authentication via fingerprint scanner is complete.
Problem 3: AuthenTec was not a fire sale. AuthenTec wasn't financially stable but their newer technologies should provide the much needed return on investment to make the company solvent. This is, admittedly, arguable.
Problem 4: NFC is not as popular as you suggest even in Japan.
Problem 5: Apple is a member of the board of directors for the Bluetooth Special Interest Group. Of which NFC group is Apple a member let alone board member?
Problem 6: Apple has not previously implemented NFC on any device. NFC is risky at this time and Apple is risk averse to new technologies. Apple implemented Bluetooth 4.0 on both the new iPad and the iPhone 4S.
Problem7: Apple has a new feature in iOS 6 known as Bluetooth Sharing which has Privacy Controls.
The chip is not an antenna. The NFC antenna could be mounted on the supposed metal back of the new iPhone.
I'm a hardcore gamer and every couple of years I have to upgrade my desktop because I can't play new games anymore. But on my iPhone 4 every single app that I use works perfectly, so, I don't need more speed! More speed is not a good reason for me to buy a new iPhone.
Network speed may be. For me anyway, being a bit spoiled by WiFi I chafe when using 3G....
Oh and on topic? Pay-by-phone in a reliable and secure fashion (NFC or whatever) could be attractive: I just finished some extensive traveling and something like that would have offered convenience. Less wallet fumbling and a better organized set of records at the end.
Mgr supplies all items with an RFID tag. The exit reader grabs the data and compares it with the shopper"s scan-record, and offers to adjust the shopper's record to match the list of product tags. Done.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by NelsonX
If it was something truly new and amazing in the new iPhone I think we would have heard a rumor by now. There were lots of leaks this year but nothing amazing. I was thinking, well, at least it will bring NFC and if NFC is to succeed Apple can do it!
Really? So, your excuse is that you believe a) all the rumors, and b) that the rumors are exhaustive and authoritative? Despite the fact that, historically, they are usually more wrong than right and are never exhaustive? So, in essence, contrary to all experience with next iPhone rumors, you decided that if it isn't rumored it isn't happening? That we now know everything there is to know about the next iPhone? Oh, and that NFC is the only feature that could possibly be worthwhile? Does that pretty much sum it up?
Quote:
Originally Posted by allenbf
But can anyone tell me, if Apple uses Bluetooth and not NFC, how will that work? Will it work with NFC terminals? What infrastructure supports payment via bluetooth? I'm asking because I honestly don't know.
Thanks
#next_pages_container { width: 5px; hight: 5px; position: absolute; top: -100px; left: -100px; z-index: 2147483647 !important; }Apple's mobile payment solution will only function with Apple devices as Apple will be using a open suite of security protocols in a manner which has not been promoted previously.
As I previously stated, this solves two issues; the go-to-market strategy and provides a marquee feature set unique to the new iPhone which will push sales.
1. Go-to-market strategy. Google made a valiant but failed effort to energize and invigorate the NFC market on Android-based devices. The issue with NFC is that there are few terminals deployed at this time and many Android smartphones are lower priced models which don't offer NFC. Apple can immediately solve this issue because existing (the new iPad and iPhone 4S) and future Apple devices could provide the retail point-of-sale terminal as they have already implemented Bluetooth 4.0. Many retailers already use Apple devices as point-of-sale systems so this makes the entire process easier and more secure. The payment infrastructure will be enabled by iTunes as users will simply add their credit cards to iTunes. The only thing I don't know is how Apple will monetize their solution. Nevermind, Apple won't monetize the feature they will simply sell more devices.
2. The new iPhone does not appear to have a marquee feature ((the original) iPhone multi-touch touchscreen mobile phone, widescreen iPod and an Internet communications device, iPhone 3G App Store, iPhone 3GS, etc.). A successful mobile payment solution is definitely a marquee feature which could push sales. While some may argue that sufficient improvements in processing and graphics as well as communication protocols are marquee features such improvements will not be presented for the new iPhone. (*)
* Please allow me to elaborate:
ARM Cortex A-15 processor architecture is not market ready
PowerVR Series 6 (Rogue) GPU is not market ready
802.11ac Wi-Fi enabled baseband processor is not market ready
12 MP camera sensor (from Omnivision) is not market ready
As a result, the new iPhone will feature LTE as well as a specification bump for the existing processor architecture and 32 nm process and likely 1 GB RAM. While these are significant improvements when reviewed as a whole they are not marquee features.
#next_pages_container { width: 5px; hight: 5px; position: absolute; top: -100px; left: -100px; z-index: 2147483647 !important; }
#next_pages_container { width: 5px; hight: 5px; position: absolute; top: -100px; left: -100px; z-index: 2147483647 !important; }
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse
Really? So, your excuse is that you believe a) all the rumors, and b) that the rumors are exhaustive and authoritative? Despite the fact that, historically, they are usually more wrong than right and are never exhaustive? So, in essence, contrary to all experience with next iPhone rumors, you decided that if it isn't rumored it isn't happening? That we now know everything there is to know about the next iPhone? Oh, and that NFC is the only feature that could possibly be worthwhile? Does that pretty much sum it up?
Yes, the NFC rumor was the only one that could make me buy the new iPhone. I was disappointed with the iPhone 4S (no teardrop iPhone design remember?) and I'm very pessimistic about the new iPhone. On the other hand, if the new iPhone will bring holographic projections like in Star Wars, I will certainly buy it!
Quote:
Originally Posted by boeyc15
It is just me, but Im not big on the phone being the sole source for authorization to pay for things... just call me Mr Luddite!
IMO - need two seperate authorization 'devices'. Say a key fob in my pocket would be one, then a code(or finger reader etc) on the phone.... I know, cumbersome, but Im paranoid and some say dilusional too.
Nobody will force you to use it. I'm sure there will be plenty of people who still love the feel of grubby coins in their pocket.
Meanwhile the rest of us move on to new and more convenient things. If the new iPhone has NFC, and I sincerely hope it does, I look forward to living in a cashless world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacBook Pro
As a result, the new iPhone will feature LTE as well as a specification bump for the existing processor architecture and 32 nm process and likely 1 GB RAM. While these are significant improvements when reviewed as a whole they are not marquee features.
That's exactly what I was saying in my previous post. The next iPhone needs a marquee feature and a widescreen alone won't cut it
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
I agree. I certainly hope there's no dedicated "NFC hardware" in Apple's digital wallet implementation. It has been thrown around a little that they might use Bluetooth, and I certainly hope so, for many reasons.
First, Bluetooth's everywhere. EVERYWHERE. Any other system would have to be built out, and they're not gonna do that. It's just not gonna happen! If it's specialized hardware only on the iPhone, I won't be able to go down to my local grocery store and buy things with my phone for over a decade! And that's even only if the system catches on as a system!
Second, people know Bluetooth. I'm not talking users, I'm talking hardware creators. Accessory makers. They understand it already.
Third, Bluetooth makes it possible for EXISTING iPhones to get this feature, too! Having an installed base of users on DAY ONE will make Apple's version succeed. Having to buy more iPhones to do it… will take far longer.
I mean, okay, picture this. How's this for the future of purchasing:
You drive to the store. Your iPhone knows where you are and reminds you what you're supposed to get. Not only that, it tells you what aisle those things are in, because the store has networked with Apple and uploaded its product layout to them. So you go to the aisle and find what you want. Pick it up, hold up your iPhone, picture of the QR barcode that has replaced the old style barcode on packaging. Now your iPhone knows what it is (1). Read that footnote first, then continue. You read it? Good, continuing. Not only does your iPhone now know what it is, it's on your list now as 'in your cart', because it probably is physically in your cart by now. Do the same with all the other products you want, and then… walk out. Just walk out. When you reach the boundary of the store geofence, your account is charged for the amount of the products in your cart. Just like an Apple Store today, but with every store.
You want a revolution? They'll give you two. One for consumers, one for store owners. First, Apple has psychologically legitimized the behavior formerly known as stealing. It'll take a few years, but we will completely redefine what it means to buy something in a physical store. No more cashiers, no more cash registers, no conveyor belts, no self-checkout machines that never work. Take it, scan it, walk out. All yourself. And even in advance. Make your list of exactly the products you want, pay for it in advance, and don't even scan it in the store; just in, cart, out. Simple.
Second, since each store's inventory and product location is connected to Apple's servers for the purpose of helping customers find what they want and at the best price and where they want to find it, when a customer makes a purchase, that inventory is deducted from the store's immediately at point of purchase. So store owners can see in real-time at any given time what products from what brands are selling best. This can also be uploaded immediately to the product's manufacturers. Product testbeds can give results in weeks instead of months. Manufacturing can be scaled back on existing products selling poorly and scaled up to meet a temporary or permanent demand for others.
(1) Your iPhone now knows this product. It knows you want this product. So it looks around for better prices for this product and tells you if it's cheaper elsewhere or the same price for a greater quantity. Additionally, now that it knows you want this product, in the future when this product is on your list and you get to the store, your iPhone will tell you if this product is currently in stock at the store. Because the store has networked with Apple and allowed Apple devices to check its inventory! And not just Apple devices, ALL devices. You'll see why above.
There was a NYT article that communicated something similar, and although I think that's where we're going in the future I believe that is all 5-10 years out. Also you're idea requires just as much, if not more infrastructure improvements as NFC, because every single retailer would have to change their point of sale architecture. With NFC they just have to add another piece of payment hardware at every register.
Either way adaption would take time globally, but NFC has been around longer and already has retailers that use it. If Apple released it with the next iPhone and the next iPhone sells 50 million the first weekend retailers would wake up and quickly add NFC pay places at all of their locations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
I want it! I just don't see a reason for dedicated hardware, is all.
You'd be surprised.
The whole premise of adding NFC is selling new iPhones, so I doubt they'll open it to older iPhones and iPads.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bighype
NFC is insecure. iPhone 5 has a BLE chip.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluetooth_low_energy
NFC is dead.
Then why does Apple have dozens and dozens of patents for NFC?
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakefinance
I don't really understand why you're all down on NFC unless you're trying to convince yourselves that you don't want it just in case the next iPhone doesn't include it. First of all, NFC is no more insecure than Bluetooth LE. With regards to making payments, NFC is mostly susceptible to eavesdropping, where a signal is intercepted by a third party; however this issue is diminished by the fact that the range of NFC is about 4 cm (less than 2 inches). Do you think you wouldn't notice someone shoving a device within 2 inches of your phone while you're making a payment? Interestingly, the only eavesdropping-secure pairing method for Bluetooth LE is Out of Band pairing, which uses NFC to transmit the pairing key. References: ( http://developer.bluetooth.org/KnowledgeCenter/TechnologyOverview/Pages/LE-Security.aspx and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluetooth )
As far as locations to pay with NFC, it's definitely a chicken and egg scenario. That said, I'll provide you with a list of stores in my area (Orlando) who currently accept NFC payments: Home Depot, Walgreens, Hess, CVS, 7 Eleven, Sports Authority, Citgo, Pollo Tropical, McDonald's, Petco, Burger King, Foot Locker, Macy's, Sunoco, Einstein Bagels, Racetrac, and Circle K. That's a pretty healthy list, and it's only going to grow.
And Tallest, you're dreaming if you think that Apple using Bluetooth for mobile payments would mean that older devices are given the same capability (see Siri, turn by turn navigation in Apple Maps, and Facetime over 3G for examples).
Awesome post!
Quote:
Originally Posted by NelsonX
Yes, the NFC rumor was the only one that could make me buy the new iPhone. I was disappointed with the iPhone 4S (no teardrop iPhone design remember?) and I'm very pessimistic about the new iPhone. On the other hand, if the new iPhone will bring holographic projections like in Star Wars, I will certainly buy it!
Ok... so you know it's a bigger screen. But you have no idea how the software will change with the increased size. Do you think it's just going to get bigger? Or will there be further features. The answer is you don't know. So sit down, take a breath, and wait 2 weeks- then you'll be able to make a logical (key word) decision.
I want NFC desperately just for the cool (i.e.- nerd) factor and not having to carry my wallet at home depot. But I'll reserve my judgement for an actual phone... like- you know... an actual phone?
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackbook
The whole premise of adding NFC is selling new iPhones, so I doubt they'll open it to older iPhones and iPads.
This. There is a less than 0% chance theyd implement that feature across the board. You know- like a 2011 11" Macbook Air being able to mirror when my 27" BTO iMac cant because it "doesnt posses the processing ability". Or Siri- which can work on a Jailbroke 4 or iPad 2 perfectly. Apple isn't dumb- and I don't think they should have that across the board for everyone- give people incentives to upgrade and have them count the days until their 2 year contract is up so they can have the newest & greatest.
No, I guess I was wrong, nothing of interest going on in there. Although, I do enjoy the irony that you claim the rumors tell us all and then reference one of the biggest rumor misses ever as an instance of the rumors letting you down.
If I thought you were being candid with us, I'd be very concerned for you
Quote:
Originally Posted by lamewing
This doesn't surprise me in the least. Apple spoon feeds capabilities to their customers while others provide these capabilities more quickly. In the long run it won't matter because people who buy Apple products are used to this process and/or don't care.
Well, Apple usually has some reasoning behind it. SInce 4G/LTE wasn't rolled out with most of the carriers, it didn't make sense to waste the money on 4G/LTE components if the carriers don't have it rolled out yet. I mean Sprint STILL doesn't have their 4G/LTE completely rolled out.
I just read that the Nexus 7 tablet doesn't do landscape mode without third party app and it doesn't have a built-in camera to take photos and videos. Talk about stupid. I guess Google doesn't care about the most basic of features and functionality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by addicted44
I think you are onto something here. Using Bluetooth for transactions, and combining them with an easy fingerprint based authentication system would make Apple's payment system far easier to go up to scale, far more secure, and possibly even easier to use. I am excited about this, if true.
Yeah, Apple does do things differently to make life easier. Sometimes they have to flip the paradigm around just to keep their competitors guessing.
With Google, you have to download an app. They can't even get landscape mode on their Nexus 7 tablet or even a freaking camera to take videos and photos. WTF? Google so messed up.
I think Google should call their next OS upgrade SUCKER.
I think apple is catching on to the fact that wallpapers should not be static and we will be seeing some Pretty Neat stuff in iOS 7 like Dynamic Wallpapers. If you can't wait till then, just jailbreak your iDevice and get tweaks such as Panoramic Wallpapers, DeepEnd, vWallpaper, and Barrel2, you can also make the iPhone do a cmd command just like in mac os x with cmdtab. I'm sure Apple will also curve the edge of the wallpapers at the bottom blacking that area out, like they have been on their native apps in iOS 6 to make the apps look less edgy. example..
(Bottom Edges are curved and black)
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse
No, I guess I was wrong, nothing of interest going on in there. Although, I do enjoy the irony that you claim the rumors tell us all and then reference one of the biggest rumor misses ever as an instance of the rumors letting you down.
If I thought you were being candid with us, I'd be very concerned for you
The rumor about NFC has been dismissed by Jim Dalrymple, so to me it's clear that there is no NFC in the new iPhone. I believe that almost all the rumors and leaks that we had this year had been approved by Apple, especially the iPad mini rumor as a response to increase competition. Jim Dalrymple role is to dismiss any false rumor. Dalrymple never dismiss the 4 inch screen, the smaller connector or the LTE. If there were something really amazing in the new iPhone I believe Apple would have intentionally launch the rumor just as they did with the iPad mini after the Nexus 7 and the Surface. We are in 2012 and Apple is not alone in the market anymore!
Originally Posted by Strat09
(Bottom Edges are curved and black)
Ooh, is that what it looks like in iOS 6? That's terrible! I hope the tighten up the graphics before release…
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinemodel
NFC is used heavily, you just don't know it. In San Francisco, every parking meter and every bus have NFC. Many shops have NFC equipped point-of-sale terminals. In other cities, it's there too. In Korea, Japan, and EU, it is even more widespread. I would not rule-out Apple implementing NFC, not only because it is popular in most of the world, but because doing so has the potential to destabilize the US credit transaction monopoly and bear a new industry in its place -- in which Apple will seemingly own a huge amount of patents. Apple has the clout to do it. Few others have the guts to take on the establishment.
Myth 1: Vendors like Square
They don't. It is clumsy to use, and there is still a transactional middleman. NFC can allow the transactional middleman to be eliminated.
Myth 2: BLE is workable for financial transactions
"Bluetooth Low Energy" is just BT4 geared for low power. It still has the Bluetooth trade-off, which is slow-connection + secure, or fast-connection + hopelessly insecure. With BLE, you need to broadcast your ID all the time in order for it to work effectively. DANGEROUS. Even worse, in secure mode BLE uses 161 bit ECC for public key exchange, and this probably isn't a long enough key to prevent hacking. So BLE is an epic fail, really, for any kind of financial transaction. It wasn't designed for financial transactions.
Myth 3: Fingerprint scanning is secure enough to be used for payment
Apple bought Authentec in what we call a "fire sale." Fingerprint & Biometric scanning is good enough to supply a PIN, but not a cypher itself.
Myth 4: You can't build NFC behind metal
Apple already uses the enclosure as an antenna for other comms.
Notes:
- The combination of fingerprint scanning and NFC is a great idea.
- It is completely plausible that the biometric chip and the NFC chip are stacked together inside the same housing.
#next_pages_container { width: 5px; hight: 5px; position: absolute; top: -100px; left: -100px; z-index: 2147483647 !important; }Problem 1: Square is not Bluetooth.
Problem 2: Bluetooth Short Range Financial Transactions (SRFT) was specifically designed for financial transactions. The protocol uses asymmetric pairing and Diffie-Hellman key exchange with a higher layer authentication protocol (such as RSA2048). Apple may choose to create a One Time Password (OTP) via Cryptographically Secure Pseudo Random Number Generator (CSPRNG) once device authentication via fingerprint scanner is complete.
Problem 3: AuthenTec was not a fire sale. AuthenTec wasn't financially stable but their newer technologies should provide the much needed return on investment to make the company solvent. This is, admittedly, arguable.
Problem 4: NFC is not as popular as you suggest even in Japan.
Problem 5: Apple is a member of the board of directors for the Bluetooth Special Interest Group. Of which NFC group is Apple a member let alone board member?
Problem 6: Apple has not previously implemented NFC on any device. NFC is risky at this time and Apple is risk averse to new technologies. Apple implemented Bluetooth 4.0 on both the new iPad and the iPhone 4S.
Problem7: Apple has a new feature in iOS 6 known as Bluetooth Sharing which has Privacy Controls.
The chip is not an antenna. The NFC antenna could be mounted on the supposed metal back of the new iPhone.
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Originally Posted by NelsonX
I'm a hardcore gamer and every couple of years I have to upgrade my desktop because I can't play new games anymore. But on my iPhone 4 every single app that I use works perfectly, so, I don't need more speed! More speed is not a good reason for me to buy a new iPhone.
Network speed may be. For me anyway, being a bit spoiled by WiFi I chafe when using 3G....
Oh and on topic? Pay-by-phone in a reliable and secure fashion (NFC or whatever) could be attractive: I just finished some extensive traveling and something like that would have offered convenience. Less wallet fumbling and a better organized set of records at the end.
Quote:
The chip is not an antenna. The NFC antenna could be mounted on the supposed metal back of the new iPhone.
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NFC is not coming:
That conclusion was supported on Tuesday by Jim Dalrymple of The Loop, who offered a succinct "Yep"
When was Dalrymple not right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfc1138
Network speed may be. For me anyway, being a bit spoiled by WiFi I chafe when using 3G....
There is no LTE yet in my country and I heard that it will not be compatible with the LTE frequencies in Europe anyway.