It's confusing and it doesn't help when Amazon doesn't have a webpage up explaining the new offerings (at least I'm not seeing it anywhere).
That's one thing Apple gets right. Have the info up, the moment after a keynote!
Ok folks for the bickering and bashing on Apple just wait until the mini comes out and iOS 6 is out I guarantee you that apple will address these multiple login issues as well as parental controls (they were the first ones to integrate this on the Apple Mac OSX Software many years ago and will prob integrate this feature on these up and coming updates it makes sense at least now they can't ignore it since Amazon has beat them to the punch with this capability so we will see ...
Bitzandbitez
Exactly my point. If Apple responds with that I'll be a happy camper. Despite my Amazon Fanboyish tone I would rather stick with iPad...without question.
But parental controls are a necessity for me and Apple is taking far too long to provide them.
You should always question why someone is willing to take loss to sell you something.
Originally Posted by rednival
Ummm....why?
Printers did it for years (may still do). The make up for it in ink.
Game consoles do every generations. PS3 and Xbox 360 probably only became profitable hardware in the last few years. Make up for loss in games and accessories.
Mobile carriers sell phones at a loss and make up for it in cell phone bill.
I seriously don't get your statement. It isn't an uncommon strategy in tech to sell something at a loss and make it up elsewhere. All it says is Amazon is more interested in content than devices.
Heck, they had a graphic of a various phones and tablets with the word "Interoperability". They advertised at the Kindle event that Amazon Content works on more than Kindle. That answers your question. They sell at a loss because they're major focus is content.
EDIT:
I also think this is why you never heard a direct assault or attack of Apple. Amazon needs Apple for a content strategy to work, seeing as there are many more iPads out there than Kindle Fires.
Yes it is the old razor, razor blades scenario. I just don't trust them because in my mind that is a deceitful way to do business. If their focus is on content then they should focus on content. Smells fishy. No thanks.
I believe I see what you are saying, but I believe the tone of his comment implied Amazon was hiding some dirty secret. I could have misinterpreted his comment.
The wording implied more to me than just a general curiosity. You "question" something you don't trust. My point was we purchase other products that use similar strategies without questioning the motives or intent because the intentions are obvious or we simply don't care. I think Amazon's intention are just as obvious and the "sell at a loss" move is not exactly some earth shattering, untested strategy.
With anything sold for less than the cost or value there is the underlying "too good to be true" mantra that needs to be considered. I question everything and it usually serves me well. I don't think questioning something means that something is untrustworthy and alternative sales methods aren't inherently bad, but the buyer should be aware of why they are getting a product that is less than it costs to produce it.
edit: It appears I misinterpreted his comment incorrectly and you correctly.
Don't worry, it won't be. Keep in mind they are still selling the rinky dink 8gb iPod touch for $199. The cheapest you will see the Mini starting at is 299, or a hundred less than the iPad 2 revision, and probably with only 8gb at that price point. Not such a big deal if you offer streaming services like Amazon does, but Apple as of yet does not. They really need to get those content negotiations finished, and roll out something similar to Amazon Prime if they really want to compete in this space.
I’d say the likes of Google, Samsung, Microsoft, Asus, etc. are more concerned about Amazon than Apple is. Although Apple clearly competes with Amazon in a certain segment of the market (mainly content distribution), I think they have a complementary and symbiotic relationship in that they share many of the same customers – such as myself and the family.
Amazon is carving out a niche (albeit a big one) for itself as it has a business model that’s very unlike that of the aforementioned tech companies including Apple. It’d be amusing to sit in on a Samsung or Microsoft meeting about this Amazon announcement. They keep seeing the entry into the tablet market getting smaller and smaller. The thing is, they’ll have to beat Amazon first before challenging Apple and I just don’t see how they could do it.
After Apple’s ecosystem, the one that I frequent the most is definitely Amazon. For the family members that order everything from cooking wares to toys for the kids, Amazon means even more. I have an old Kindle that I still use frequently – especially for reading outdoors. I use the Kindle app frequently on the iPad as well although I’m about 50/50 between that and iBooks.
I’m an Amazon Prime member and I think Amazon offers a great value-filled ecosystem that no one else can match. For me, Amazon is very complementary to all the things that Apple offers. It sure beats having to rely on Google or Microsoft for anything and I’m glad that Amazon is keeping them at bay.
Apple could still dominate the tablet market while Amazon plays a secondary role of keeping virtually everyone else out. That being said, Amazon really needs to figure out on how to further expand in the international markets. That’s their key weakness. Apple could continue holding onto the great majority of the market share while Amazon serves a strong niche market while throttling the likes of Google, Samsung and Microsoft.
I don’t think Apple needs to match Amazon down to the dollar and every spec. They offer two different types of ecosystems. I’m sure Apple is observing Amazon very carefully, but Amazon can be more of an ally than a foe when they both consider Google a bigger and more important enemy to fight.
Neither you nor anyone else outside Cupertino likely has any idea if an iPad mini even exists and, if it does, what the price points will be. Geesh! Everything about price has been mere speculation.
I have an "idea" that it exists. And say it doesn't exist and it is merely speculation (ignoring all rumours, leaked images, etc), we know that tablets that are roughly 7" cost roughly $200, maybe a little less, and maybe a little less that that if you're ordering enough components for tens of millions. We also have an idea from Apple's quarterly reports what they target for a profit margin. We can make some sort of ideal of what Apple would have to price an iPad mini to keep those margins. Those margins are very key to the stock price. So I wouldn't say it's "mere speculation"...
I believe I see what you are saying, but I believe the tone of his comment implied Amazon was hiding some dirty secret. I could have misinterpreted his comment.
The wording implied more to me than just a general curiosity. You "question" something you don't trust. My point was we purchase other products that use similar strategies without questioning the motives or intent because the intentions are obvious or we simply don't care. I think Amazon's intention are just as obvious and the "sell at a loss" move is not exactly some earth shattering, untested strategy.
What others have mentioned is that usually a company will sell a specific product for a loss strategically to make a profit on other products that same company sells. People don't only question things they don't trust, they also are curious about, question, and harbor suspicions about information from sources that tend to obfuscate desired information. Has Amazon ever reported actual hardware sales numbers? When they have, were those numbers accurate? When they have not reported sales numbers, why not?
Furthermore, it is unclear to many how Amazon can continue to sell hardware (and seemingly also, content) both at a loss or very slim margins and remain a viable enterprise. Look at how cheap Amazon Prime is, or how cheap Amazon's books usually are. Where are they making their money? Some speculate via Amazon marketplace. Those who have invested in hardware dependent on an ecosystem to maintain its value likely would be curious about those types of things. Moreover, it seems natural to speculate that getting consumers hooked into an ecosystem and gradually raising prices (another age-old corporate retail strategy) could be in play here. I'm not exactly sure of any of that, but I do know that opacity tends to fuel peoples' suspicions.
Printers did it for years (may still do). The make up for it in ink.
Game consoles do every generations. PS3 and Xbox 360 probably only became profitable hardware in the last few years. Make up for loss in games and accessories.
Mobile carriers sell phones at a loss and make up for it in cell phone bill.
I seriously don't get your statement. It isn't an uncommon strategy in tech to sell something at a loss and make it up elsewhere. All it says is Amazon is more interested in content than devices.
Heck, they had a graphic of a various phones and tablets with the word "Interoperability". They advertised at the Kindle event that Amazon Content works on more than Kindle. That answers your question. They sell at a loss because they're major focus is content.
I also think this is why you never heard a direct assault or attack of Apple. Amazon needs Apple for a content strategy to work, seeing as there are many more iPads out there than Kindle Fires.
Those other products make sense being sold at a loss because one is basically forced to buy other things. A game console is practically worthless without the games that need to be purchased and a printer needs ink, but one can buy a Kindle Fire and use it without ever buying another thing from Amazon. It's really a risky move.
I have an "idea" that it exists. And say it doesn't exist and it is merely speculation (ignoring all rumours, leaked images, etc), we know that tablets that are roughly 7" cost roughly $200, maybe a little less, and maybe a little less that that if you're ordering enough components for tens of millions. We also have an idea from Apple's quarterly reports what they target for a profit margin. We can make some sort of ideal of what Apple would have to price an iPad mini to keep those margins. Those margins are very key to the stock price. So I wouldn't say it's "mere speculation"...
So you think you know what the BOM on an iPad Mini will be without knowing anything about components to be used other than what Apple's competitors have used? Okay.
AMZN stock dropped quite a bit -- I think the market, the audience (me included) thought that this was because the new Kindles were meh devices and Bezos was trying to sell the sizzle because there was nothing exceptional about the steak.
Buy on rumour, sell on news.
How many times have we seen Apple stock fall after they announce a new product or another quarter of amazing results?
I personally would tend to stay away from AMZN stock. The closing PE of 300+ makes it priced for absolute perfection while the PE of AAPL is less than 16. Keynes has said that "The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent" so I wouldn't necessarily bet against them either, but such valuations can often result in rapid and violent drops.
I hate to say it, but the iPad pricing now seems very out of line with the rest of these tablets. Yes, you get more functionality for the price point, but it seems like the iPads are more "Pro" tablets. I hope Apple can keep their margins up and keep dominating the market.
considering apple is positioning the iPad as the future of the pc, and these other companies are trying to just make something as cheap as possible, and especially amazon simply as a media consumption device to undercut it, I'm fine witht the iPad being pricier. The kindle is still in completely another ballpark in terms of capabilities, ecosystem, apps, etc. Apple just needs to stay the course and stick with its vision. BTW Amazon is primarily using this tablet as a gateway to its products, and doesn't expect to make profit from it. Completely different business models.
When that new iPad mini drops it will be game over for kindle fire, kindle lava, kindle sulfuric acid or any play on sh** that if it touches your skin you'd go crying to yo mama!
Don't worry, it won't be. Keep in mind they are still selling the rinky dink 8gb iPod touch for $199. The cheapest you will see the Mini starting at is 299, or a hundred less than the iPad 2 revision, and probably with only 8gb at that price point. Not such a big deal if you offer streaming services like Amazon does, but Apple as of yet does not. They really need to get those content negotiations finished, and roll out something similar to Amazon Prime if they really want to compete in this space.
iPad mini will almost certainly be a failure at anything above $250 or so. It should probably hit the $200 spot to really succeed.
The market for 7" or "small" tablets is completely settled at around $200. $50 extra "because it's Apple" will probably fly, but $100? I don't think so.
They aren't that desirable and this is an entirely new product category for Apple. They need to entice people in. The average person rightly or wrongly is going to see the Nexus 7 and then the iPad mini right beside it in the "small tablets" section of Futureshop or wherever and they will pick the one that's half the price of the other (if the mini is indeed $400 as you say).
This thing is compelling. If you don't think so, you've sold your soul to Apple. Amazon is clearly trying to address some things Apple refuses to address, such as glare, parental controls, and expensive data plans. You may HATE Amazon, but THIS is what competition is: offering things your competitor does not.
An iPad knock off it isn't. If anyone should be upset about the UI its Microsoft. The Kindle UI looks an awful lot like what I see on my Xbox....
EDIT:
By the way, I am not implying you should ditch your iPad and buy the thing. Just that it is an appealing device worth taking a look at. It has merits beyond the "Amazon content".
I think you may have been suckered by Bezos' lies (or "reality distortion field" if you want to be kinder about it).
People seem to forget that Bezos is a well known shyster, that Amazon doesn't release sales figures, that the first Fire was a resounding dud with everyone that bought one, that it had horrible build quality, and horrible software etc. etc. etc. ad infinitum.
Why would anyone watch this dog and pony show and just take this crap at face value? This guy, and this company have shown many times before how deceitful and how "anti-customer" they are. Bezos plays fast and loose with the rules and always has done. Based on past performance, nothing he says and nothing the company puts out as PR should really be believed.
Let's wait until there are some actual devices in the hand and reviews of said devices.
Not that anyone really cares. The kindle Fire 1.0 was a POS according to every reviewer and most owners and didn't even sell very well, but if you read the tech news you will find most reviewers just regurgitating Amazons constant insistences that the exact opposite is true.
In an age where few true journalists exist anymore and none are willing to actually investigate the claims made by a-holes like this it's pretty much what we have to expect (the public perception being 100% opposite to the reality).
Comments
http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=176060&p=irol-mediaKindle
Weird url but it goes to Amazon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitzandbitez
Ok folks for the bickering and bashing on Apple just wait until the mini comes out and iOS 6 is out I guarantee you that apple will address these multiple login issues as well as parental controls (they were the first ones to integrate this on the Apple Mac OSX Software many years ago and will prob integrate this feature on these up and coming updates it makes sense at least now they can't ignore it since Amazon has beat them to the punch with this capability so we will see ...
Bitzandbitez
Exactly my point. If Apple responds with that I'll be a happy camper. Despite my Amazon Fanboyish tone I would rather stick with iPad...without question.
But parental controls are a necessity for me and Apple is taking far too long to provide them.
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
You should always question why someone is willing to take loss to sell you something.
Originally Posted by rednival
Ummm....why?
Printers did it for years (may still do). The make up for it in ink.
Game consoles do every generations. PS3 and Xbox 360 probably only became profitable hardware in the last few years. Make up for loss in games and accessories.
Mobile carriers sell phones at a loss and make up for it in cell phone bill.
I seriously don't get your statement. It isn't an uncommon strategy in tech to sell something at a loss and make it up elsewhere. All it says is Amazon is more interested in content than devices.
Heck, they had a graphic of a various phones and tablets with the word "Interoperability". They advertised at the Kindle event that Amazon Content works on more than Kindle. That answers your question. They sell at a loss because they're major focus is content.
EDIT:
I also think this is why you never heard a direct assault or attack of Apple. Amazon needs Apple for a content strategy to work, seeing as there are many more iPads out there than Kindle Fires.
Yes it is the old razor, razor blades scenario. I just don't trust them because in my mind that is a deceitful way to do business. If their focus is on content then they should focus on content. Smells fishy. No thanks.
With anything sold for less than the cost or value there is the underlying "too good to be true" mantra that needs to be considered. I question everything and it usually serves me well. I don't think questioning something means that something is untrustworthy and alternative sales methods aren't inherently bad, but the buyer should be aware of why they are getting a product that is less than it costs to produce it.
edit: It appears I misinterpreted his comment incorrectly and you correctly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by matrix07
If iPad mini is $250.
Don't worry, it won't be. Keep in mind they are still selling the rinky dink 8gb iPod touch for $199. The cheapest you will see the Mini starting at is 299, or a hundred less than the iPad 2 revision, and probably with only 8gb at that price point. Not such a big deal if you offer streaming services like Amazon does, but Apple as of yet does not. They really need to get those content negotiations finished, and roll out something similar to Amazon Prime if they really want to compete in this space.
I’d say the likes of Google, Samsung, Microsoft, Asus, etc. are more concerned about Amazon than Apple is. Although Apple clearly competes with Amazon in a certain segment of the market (mainly content distribution), I think they have a complementary and symbiotic relationship in that they share many of the same customers – such as myself and the family.
Amazon is carving out a niche (albeit a big one) for itself as it has a business model that’s very unlike that of the aforementioned tech companies including Apple. It’d be amusing to sit in on a Samsung or Microsoft meeting about this Amazon announcement. They keep seeing the entry into the tablet market getting smaller and smaller. The thing is, they’ll have to beat Amazon first before challenging Apple and I just don’t see how they could do it.
After Apple’s ecosystem, the one that I frequent the most is definitely Amazon. For the family members that order everything from cooking wares to toys for the kids, Amazon means even more. I have an old Kindle that I still use frequently – especially for reading outdoors. I use the Kindle app frequently on the iPad as well although I’m about 50/50 between that and iBooks.
I’m an Amazon Prime member and I think Amazon offers a great value-filled ecosystem that no one else can match. For me, Amazon is very complementary to all the things that Apple offers. It sure beats having to rely on Google or Microsoft for anything and I’m glad that Amazon is keeping them at bay.
Apple could still dominate the tablet market while Amazon plays a secondary role of keeping virtually everyone else out. That being said, Amazon really needs to figure out on how to further expand in the international markets. That’s their key weakness. Apple could continue holding onto the great majority of the market share while Amazon serves a strong niche market while throttling the likes of Google, Samsung and Microsoft.
I don’t think Apple needs to match Amazon down to the dollar and every spec. They offer two different types of ecosystems. I’m sure Apple is observing Amazon very carefully, but Amazon can be more of an ally than a foe when they both consider Google a bigger and more important enemy to fight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carthusia
Neither you nor anyone else outside Cupertino likely has any idea if an iPad mini even exists and, if it does, what the price points will be. Geesh! Everything about price has been mere speculation.
I have an "idea" that it exists. And say it doesn't exist and it is merely speculation (ignoring all rumours, leaked images, etc), we know that tablets that are roughly 7" cost roughly $200, maybe a little less, and maybe a little less that that if you're ordering enough components for tens of millions. We also have an idea from Apple's quarterly reports what they target for a profit margin. We can make some sort of ideal of what Apple would have to price an iPad mini to keep those margins. Those margins are very key to the stock price. So I wouldn't say it's "mere speculation"...
Quote:
Originally Posted by rednival
I believe I see what you are saying, but I believe the tone of his comment implied Amazon was hiding some dirty secret. I could have misinterpreted his comment.
The wording implied more to me than just a general curiosity. You "question" something you don't trust. My point was we purchase other products that use similar strategies without questioning the motives or intent because the intentions are obvious or we simply don't care. I think Amazon's intention are just as obvious and the "sell at a loss" move is not exactly some earth shattering, untested strategy.
What others have mentioned is that usually a company will sell a specific product for a loss strategically to make a profit on other products that same company sells. People don't only question things they don't trust, they also are curious about, question, and harbor suspicions about information from sources that tend to obfuscate desired information. Has Amazon ever reported actual hardware sales numbers? When they have, were those numbers accurate? When they have not reported sales numbers, why not?
Furthermore, it is unclear to many how Amazon can continue to sell hardware (and seemingly also, content) both at a loss or very slim margins and remain a viable enterprise. Look at how cheap Amazon Prime is, or how cheap Amazon's books usually are. Where are they making their money? Some speculate via Amazon marketplace. Those who have invested in hardware dependent on an ecosystem to maintain its value likely would be curious about those types of things. Moreover, it seems natural to speculate that getting consumers hooked into an ecosystem and gradually raising prices (another age-old corporate retail strategy) could be in play here. I'm not exactly sure of any of that, but I do know that opacity tends to fuel peoples' suspicions.
Those other products make sense being sold at a loss because one is basically forced to buy other things. A game console is practically worthless without the games that need to be purchased and a printer needs ink, but one can buy a Kindle Fire and use it without ever buying another thing from Amazon. It's really a risky move.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OriginalG
I have an "idea" that it exists. And say it doesn't exist and it is merely speculation (ignoring all rumours, leaked images, etc), we know that tablets that are roughly 7" cost roughly $200, maybe a little less, and maybe a little less that that if you're ordering enough components for tens of millions. We also have an idea from Apple's quarterly reports what they target for a profit margin. We can make some sort of ideal of what Apple would have to price an iPad mini to keep those margins. Those margins are very key to the stock price. So I wouldn't say it's "mere speculation"...
So you think you know what the BOM on an iPad Mini will be without knowing anything about components to be used other than what Apple's competitors have used? Okay.
Quote:
Originally Posted by matrix07
Now let's see if iPad mini will be cheaper.
It doesn't need to be. It's an iPad + Apple ecosystem.
Buy on rumour, sell on news.
How many times have we seen Apple stock fall after they announce a new product or another quarter of amazing results?
I personally would tend to stay away from AMZN stock. The closing PE of 300+ makes it priced for absolute perfection while the PE of AAPL is less than 16. Keynes has said that "The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent" so I wouldn't necessarily bet against them either, but such valuations can often result in rapid and violent drops.
considering apple is positioning the iPad as the future of the pc, and these other companies are trying to just make something as cheap as possible, and especially amazon simply as a media consumption device to undercut it, I'm fine witht the iPad being pricier. The kindle is still in completely another ballpark in terms of capabilities, ecosystem, apps, etc. Apple just needs to stay the course and stick with its vision. BTW Amazon is primarily using this tablet as a gateway to its products, and doesn't expect to make profit from it. Completely different business models.
Big deal!
When that new iPad mini drops it will be game over for kindle fire, kindle lava, kindle sulfuric acid or any play on sh** that if it touches your skin you'd go crying to yo mama!
Don't think you really learned math - you get 20 MB a month for that plan or about 3-5 songs downloaded and you're finished for the month
Not to mentioned you'll be dunned with Amazon adverts on the lock screen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cash907
Don't worry, it won't be. Keep in mind they are still selling the rinky dink 8gb iPod touch for $199. The cheapest you will see the Mini starting at is 299, or a hundred less than the iPad 2 revision, and probably with only 8gb at that price point. Not such a big deal if you offer streaming services like Amazon does, but Apple as of yet does not. They really need to get those content negotiations finished, and roll out something similar to Amazon Prime if they really want to compete in this space.
iPad mini will almost certainly be a failure at anything above $250 or so. It should probably hit the $200 spot to really succeed.
The market for 7" or "small" tablets is completely settled at around $200. $50 extra "because it's Apple" will probably fly, but $100? I don't think so.
They aren't that desirable and this is an entirely new product category for Apple. They need to entice people in. The average person rightly or wrongly is going to see the Nexus 7 and then the iPad mini right beside it in the "small tablets" section of Futureshop or wherever and they will pick the one that's half the price of the other (if the mini is indeed $400 as you say).
Quote:
Originally Posted by markbyrn
Don't think you really learned math - you get 20 MB a month for that plan or about 3-5 songs downloaded and you're finished for the month
Apparently, you didn't really learn how to read
You get 250 MB per month
Here it is in big font, w/ purdy pictures and colors - should make it easier for you:
Quote:
Originally Posted by rednival
Bull.
This thing is compelling. If you don't think so, you've sold your soul to Apple. Amazon is clearly trying to address some things Apple refuses to address, such as glare, parental controls, and expensive data plans. You may HATE Amazon, but THIS is what competition is: offering things your competitor does not.
An iPad knock off it isn't. If anyone should be upset about the UI its Microsoft. The Kindle UI looks an awful lot like what I see on my Xbox....
EDIT:
By the way, I am not implying you should ditch your iPad and buy the thing. Just that it is an appealing device worth taking a look at. It has merits beyond the "Amazon content".
I think you may have been suckered by Bezos' lies (or "reality distortion field" if you want to be kinder about it).
People seem to forget that Bezos is a well known shyster, that Amazon doesn't release sales figures, that the first Fire was a resounding dud with everyone that bought one, that it had horrible build quality, and horrible software etc. etc. etc. ad infinitum.
Why would anyone watch this dog and pony show and just take this crap at face value? This guy, and this company have shown many times before how deceitful and how "anti-customer" they are. Bezos plays fast and loose with the rules and always has done. Based on past performance, nothing he says and nothing the company puts out as PR should really be believed.
Let's wait until there are some actual devices in the hand and reviews of said devices.
Not that anyone really cares. The kindle Fire 1.0 was a POS according to every reviewer and most owners and didn't even sell very well, but if you read the tech news you will find most reviewers just regurgitating Amazons constant insistences that the exact opposite is true.
In an age where few true journalists exist anymore and none are willing to actually investigate the claims made by a-holes like this it's pretty much what we have to expect (the public perception being 100% opposite to the reality).