For the first time in a long while, I agree with Wu.
Amazon's business model makes no sense at all. It'll take a few quarters to show up as an earnings blow up, but it will.
Sounds like Denial. People have been saying that every quarter for the last 17 years and calling Bezos crazy, yet they continue to grow, are the world's largest e-tailer and are 1/4 of the enterprise cloud computing market.
The 4G version with data plan of $50 per annum is very attractive. Amazon is very creative to price the data plan: probably part of the $500 asking price will be allocated to the data costs, and it probably assumes that machine will not last for too long before someone replaces it with an updated version. Hat off to Bezo for thinking out of the box.
The 4G version with data plan of $50 per annum is very attractive. Amazon is very creative to price the data plan: probably part of the $500 asking price will be allocated to the data costs, and it probably assumes that machine will not last for too long before someone replaces it with an updated version. Hat off to Bezo for thinking out of the box.
Really? I think the $199 one is the most attractive. With this kind of device I don't think you need cellular at all.
Why is it only compared to the iPad? It seems to me it's just as much (if not more so) competition for the Nexus 7 and the slew of OEM Android/Windows RT tablets. If its all about price, who would buy a Samsung or Asus tablet when they can get a Fire for $199?
I agree that they are going to hurt Microsolft and the android tablet crowd more than Apple, BUT make no mistake, it will hurt Apple too. The price gap between the ipad and the new tablets is getting to big, so Apple need a lower price offering more than ever. With no low price device, Apple is set to lose the ecosystem war in the long run.
imo Apple need to price its new 8" tablet at 249$, right between the 7" kindle at 199$ and the 9" kindle at 299$. This will ensure Apple spreads its ecosystem at the lower end.
I see no reason for this Kindle not to be win for Amazon, despite that bezel. I also see no reason for its success to be determined by Apple faltering when this market is growing so quickly.
I do wonder if Apple has prepared for Amazon's offerings or if they will have to adjust features and/or price points for their rumoured iPad mini. We're still hearing 1024x768 for a 163 PPI display whilst this Fire HD has an impressive, at least on paper, 1920x1200 at 254 PPI for a good price. This is the best competitor we've seen to the iPad.
No doubt. There's the whole ecosystem thing and apps that tilt in the iPad's favor, but this higher res screen on a really competitively priced tablet sounds good. And the data plan beats the PANTS off of whatever AT&T and Verizon are gouging with on the iPad side (through no fault of Apple's). And of course Amazon is pricing to effectively no margin on the hardware (or maybe even a loss???), but cheap (and seemingly pretty good) hardware + cheap data network definitely doesn't suck.
Seeing how Nexus Pad and Kindle change into, it might be a good thing that Android tablets and iPad are now part ways and found their own customers. Android tablets for media consumptions. Kindle for Amazon's contents. iPad morphing into baby laptops.
The 4G version with data plan of $50 per annum is very attractive...
Interesting that all the articles on the new Kindle are glossing over this. The cheapest Verizon plan is $360/year for an ipod. Granted it's only for 250MB, but I think a lot of your tablet users out these spend 90% of their tablet time checking email or surfing the web. This could open the door for a new kind of tablet audience. (Maybe even Mom, who has no computer or wi-fi...)
Amazon's cash balance and working capital has dropped dramatically. They have .5% net profit margin. They are one mistake away from some serious issues. They better hope this content model works for them
I certainly wonder how in the world Amazon has managed to have a P/E on their stock of 312. If they were trading at the same P/E as Apple, they'd collapse from $255 a share to about $13.
Truly one of the strangest stocks out there and a great demonstration of how manipulated some stocks are. FB is clearly losing its air (should be at $7-8?), and to be fair AMZN really should too. Alternately Apple should be trading at $13,000 a share, but that's assuming fairness.
Amazon is attempting to follow the xbox model which took Years for it to begin paying back to M$. I would be curious to see how much M$ invested over all the years to truly see if it paid off the total investment. I suspect not since they never really reports all the numbers for the xbox.
I have to agree kindle has an issue with content. My wife loves her since it just replaces her having to carry books around. However, after some initial purchased form Amazon she has not been back since we found we can check out e-books from the library and convert them to mobi format and put them on the kindle. Also we get content elsewhere and convert it. Beside a few initial purchase they have not made much form us. I know others are doing the same thing so we not alone in this.
I personally never understood the give something away in hopes it makes you money elsewhere. I know inkjet printer do well in this model, HP and Epson make far more money on the ink than the printer itself but it does not work in all cases.
WOW! first the Nexus 7 comes out at 199$ with great hardware 8g and now Amazon Kindle HD 7" with better hardware, retina display, front facing camera and 16g at 199$ plus Kindle HD 9" 299$...
INCREDIBLE price with hardware! besides the 150$ old kindle fire(over price) and the ridiculous LTE version (250$ more for an LTE is DOA for 50$ you can buy 2 wifi Kindle HD's) plus US exclusivity this is a game changer for the tablet market. Nexus hardwear is sub par and Samsung tablets are to expensive compare to Amazon offerings. Plus the Amazon android skin makes it easier for normal consumers and exempt of law suits.
Now Apple has to choose to dominate the Tablet market or allow Amazon to take huge margins of the market this Holiday season like Samsung did on the smart phone market. It can release the iPad mini at 199$ (even without retina with its ecosystem it will beat kindle HD 7") and cut 100$ to ipad 2 $299(less powerful than kindle HD 9" with no retina but 1" larger screen and the apple ecosystem) ipad 3 at 399$.
Microsoft will never be able to compete with the Surface RT at this prices because it does not have Apple volume purchase of parts cheap.
The Tablet Wars is between Amazon and Apple Both have the Ecosystem and simple OS, is on Apple to compete on price and dominate the Tablet market Both in the consumer market and educational or Open the door to Amazon...
P.S. in the next 12 months Tablet Sales will be Bigger than PC sales and Windows 8 Tablets wont be in there in big numbers because they wont even be close to these prices. In 2 years the Tech World will be VERY DIFFERENT. Exiting times are ahead...
I agree that they are going to hurt Microsolft and the android tablet crowd more than Apple, BUT make no mistake, it will hurt Apple too. The price gap between the ipad and the new tablets is getting to big, so Apple need a lower price offering more than ever. With no low price device, Apple is set to lose the ecosystem war in the long run.
imo Apple need to price its new 8" tablet at 249$, right between the 7" kindle at 199$ and the 9" kindle at 299$. This will ensure Apple spreads its ecosystem at the lower end.
But then that'd hurt Apple's margin a lot.
You see, $249 for 8"? or $499 for 10" iPad? Take the 8", no brainer.
In the end, Amazon is not trying to beat Apple, Amazon is trying to destroy the field, so that nobody can make decent money on hardware. That would hurt Apple the most, because other OEMs are not making much in the first place.
I do wonder if Apple has prepared for Amazon's offerings or if they will have to adjust features and/or price points for their rumoured iPad mini. We're still hearing 1024x768 for a 163 PPI display whilst this Fire HD has an impressive, at least on paper, 1920x1200 at 254 PPI for a good price. This is the best competitor we've seen to the iPad.
I agree that they are going to hurt Microsolft and the android tablet crowd more than Apple, BUT make no mistake, it will hurt Apple too. The price gap between the ipad and the new tablets is getting to big, so Apple need a lower price offering more than ever. With no low price device, Apple is set to lose the ecosystem war in the long run.
imo Apple need to price its new 8" tablet at 249$, right between the 7" kindle at 199$ and the 9" kindle at 299$. This will ensure Apple spreads its ecosystem at the lower end.
Oh I agree that Apple probably can't go over $299 price point with a smaller iPad. But I find it ironic that the same folks on these tech sites who claim Nexus 7, Windows RT, Transformer Prime, etc. are better than the iPad never compare new offerings to these devices, never seem to wonder how a Kindle Fire will affect those sales. it's all about the iPad. If these new Fires are all that who will give a shit about a Samsung or Asus, or even Windows RT tablet. People might even have second thoughts about the Nexus 7. Who knows. But for all the talk of Apple being a bubble ready to burst what about Amazon. Up $5 this morning. PE over 300 when Apple and Microsoft's is under 16. If any stock is inflated I think it's Amazon's.
This is about survival for Amazon. Most of the things they sell are going digital - books, music, movies, games, etc - and the two major mobile platforms have their own stores (iTunes and the App Store on iOS, Play on Android). If Amazon doesn't control their own platform they're totally screwed in the long-run. The pricing is aggressive but you have to wonder if it's sustainable and whether it will scale. Apple famously spends a lot of money to secure components to manufacture devices at scale. Amazon can't afford that. They're not profitable and they don't have a lot of cash left. Amazon isn't a big international player either, so that also limits them as a platform. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out.
Interesting that all the articles on the new Kindle are glossing over this. The cheapest Verizon plan is $360/year for an ipod. Granted it's only for 250MB, but I think a lot of your tablet users out these spend 90% of their tablet time checking email or surfing the web. This could open the door for a new kind of tablet audience. (Maybe even Mom, who has no computer or wi-fi...)
Take it from someone who reduced his data plan on his iPhone from 4GB to 300MB because I picked up a 4G LTE Hotspot device, that 300MB is not much and I used it before mid-billing cycle and went back to 3GB/month. A 250MB/month for a LTE device will be nothing and I wonder what overage charges are if they even let you go over.
The sucky thing is these cheap devices are going to condition people into thinking all tablets should be $199. The average Joe isn't going to know (or care) that Amazon is selling these things at cost or a loss. All they care about is getting something cheap. But how do hardware companies like HP, Dell, Lenovo, Asus etc. compete with that? Apple might be able to take a hit on margins but they can't.
Sounds like Denial. People have been saying that every quarter for the last 17 years and calling Bezos crazy, yet they continue to grow, are the world's largest e-tailer and are 1/4 of the enterprise cloud computing market.
Could be for some, but not for me. I haven't followed the company for the past 17 years so I have no clue what people have been saying.
Earnings and stock prices don't necessarily move in tandem. One often leads or lags the other. But at some point, one they catch up with each other.
I said a 'few quarters.' Let's see. Check back in Fall 2013.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram
For the first time in a long while, I agree with Wu.
Amazon's business model makes no sense at all. It'll take a few quarters to show up as an earnings blow up, but it will.
Sounds like Denial. People have been saying that every quarter for the last 17 years and calling Bezos crazy, yet they continue to grow, are the world's largest e-tailer and are 1/4 of the enterprise cloud computing market.
The 4G version with data plan of $50 per annum is very attractive. Amazon is very creative to price the data plan: probably part of the $500 asking price will be allocated to the data costs, and it probably assumes that machine will not last for too long before someone replaces it with an updated version. Hat off to Bezo for thinking out of the box.
I'm loving it! Apple will have to price iPad mini very carefully now, and my wallet is ready.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rsdofny
The 4G version with data plan of $50 per annum is very attractive. Amazon is very creative to price the data plan: probably part of the $500 asking price will be allocated to the data costs, and it probably assumes that machine will not last for too long before someone replaces it with an updated version. Hat off to Bezo for thinking out of the box.
Really? I think the $199 one is the most attractive. With this kind of device I don't think you need cellular at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan
Why is it only compared to the iPad? It seems to me it's just as much (if not more so) competition for the Nexus 7 and the slew of OEM Android/Windows RT tablets. If its all about price, who would buy a Samsung or Asus tablet when they can get a Fire for $199?
I agree that they are going to hurt Microsolft and the android tablet crowd more than Apple, BUT make no mistake, it will hurt Apple too. The price gap between the ipad and the new tablets is getting to big, so Apple need a lower price offering more than ever. With no low price device, Apple is set to lose the ecosystem war in the long run.
imo Apple need to price its new 8" tablet at 249$, right between the 7" kindle at 199$ and the 9" kindle at 299$. This will ensure Apple spreads its ecosystem at the lower end.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
I see no reason for this Kindle not to be win for Amazon, despite that bezel. I also see no reason for its success to be determined by Apple faltering when this market is growing so quickly.
I do wonder if Apple has prepared for Amazon's offerings or if they will have to adjust features and/or price points for their rumoured iPad mini. We're still hearing 1024x768 for a 163 PPI display whilst this Fire HD has an impressive, at least on paper, 1920x1200 at 254 PPI for a good price. This is the best competitor we've seen to the iPad.
No doubt. There's the whole ecosystem thing and apps that tilt in the iPad's favor, but this higher res screen on a really competitively priced tablet sounds good. And the data plan beats the PANTS off of whatever AT&T and Verizon are gouging with on the iPad side (through no fault of Apple's). And of course Amazon is pricing to effectively no margin on the hardware (or maybe even a loss???), but cheap (and seemingly pretty good) hardware + cheap data network definitely doesn't suck.
Seeing how Nexus Pad and Kindle change into, it might be a good thing that Android tablets and iPad are now part ways and found their own customers. Android tablets for media consumptions. Kindle for Amazon's contents. iPad morphing into baby laptops.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rsdofny
The 4G version with data plan of $50 per annum is very attractive...
Interesting that all the articles on the new Kindle are glossing over this. The cheapest Verizon plan is $360/year for an ipod. Granted it's only for 250MB, but I think a lot of your tablet users out these spend 90% of their tablet time checking email or surfing the web. This could open the door for a new kind of tablet audience. (Maybe even Mom, who has no computer or wi-fi...)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Oak
Amazon's cash balance and working capital has dropped dramatically. They have .5% net profit margin. They are one mistake away from some serious issues. They better hope this content model works for them
I certainly wonder how in the world Amazon has managed to have a P/E on their stock of 312. If they were trading at the same P/E as Apple, they'd collapse from $255 a share to about $13.
Truly one of the strangest stocks out there and a great demonstration of how manipulated some stocks are. FB is clearly losing its air (should be at $7-8?), and to be fair AMZN really should too. Alternately Apple should be trading at $13,000 a share, but that's assuming fairness.
Amazon is attempting to follow the xbox model which took Years for it to begin paying back to M$. I would be curious to see how much M$ invested over all the years to truly see if it paid off the total investment. I suspect not since they never really reports all the numbers for the xbox.
I have to agree kindle has an issue with content. My wife loves her since it just replaces her having to carry books around. However, after some initial purchased form Amazon she has not been back since we found we can check out e-books from the library and convert them to mobi format and put them on the kindle. Also we get content elsewhere and convert it. Beside a few initial purchase they have not made much form us. I know others are doing the same thing so we not alone in this.
I personally never understood the give something away in hopes it makes you money elsewhere. I know inkjet printer do well in this model, HP and Epson make far more money on the ink than the printer itself but it does not work in all cases.
INCREDIBLE price with hardware!
besides the 150$ old kindle fire(over price) and the ridiculous LTE version
(250$ more for an LTE is DOA for 50$ you can buy 2 wifi Kindle HD's) plus US exclusivity
this is a game changer for the tablet market. Nexus hardwear is sub par and
Samsung tablets are to expensive compare to Amazon offerings.
Plus the Amazon android skin makes it easier for normal consumers and exempt of law suits.
Now Apple has to choose to dominate the Tablet market or allow Amazon to take huge
margins of the market this Holiday season like Samsung did on the smart phone market.
It can release the iPad mini at 199$ (even without retina with its ecosystem it will beat kindle HD 7") and cut 100$ to ipad 2 $299(less powerful than kindle HD 9" with no retina but 1" larger screen and the apple ecosystem)
ipad 3 at 399$.
Microsoft will never be able to compete with the Surface RT at this prices because it does not have Apple volume purchase of parts cheap.
The Tablet Wars is between Amazon and Apple Both have the Ecosystem and simple OS, is on Apple to compete on price and dominate the Tablet market Both in the consumer market and educational or Open the door to Amazon...
P.S. in the next 12 months Tablet Sales will be Bigger than PC sales and Windows 8 Tablets wont be in there in big numbers because they wont even be close to these prices. In 2 years the Tech World will be VERY DIFFERENT. Exiting times are ahead...
Quote:
Originally Posted by herbapou
I agree that they are going to hurt Microsolft and the android tablet crowd more than Apple, BUT make no mistake, it will hurt Apple too. The price gap between the ipad and the new tablets is getting to big, so Apple need a lower price offering more than ever. With no low price device, Apple is set to lose the ecosystem war in the long run.
imo Apple need to price its new 8" tablet at 249$, right between the 7" kindle at 199$ and the 9" kindle at 299$. This will ensure Apple spreads its ecosystem at the lower end.
But then that'd hurt Apple's margin a lot.
You see, $249 for 8"? or $499 for 10" iPad? Take the 8", no brainer.
In the end, Amazon is not trying to beat Apple, Amazon is trying to destroy the field, so that nobody can make decent money on hardware. That would hurt Apple the most, because other OEMs are not making much in the first place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
I do wonder if Apple has prepared for Amazon's offerings or if they will have to adjust features and/or price points for their rumoured iPad mini. We're still hearing 1024x768 for a 163 PPI display whilst this Fire HD has an impressive, at least on paper, 1920x1200 at 254 PPI for a good price. This is the best competitor we've seen to the iPad.
Amazon's competitor for the iPad mini would be the cheaper 7" Kindle Fire HD, and that is 1280x800 (and no where near 254 PPI): http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0083PWAPW/
This is about survival for Amazon. Most of the things they sell are going digital - books, music, movies, games, etc - and the two major mobile platforms have their own stores (iTunes and the App Store on iOS, Play on Android). If Amazon doesn't control their own platform they're totally screwed in the long-run. The pricing is aggressive but you have to wonder if it's sustainable and whether it will scale. Apple famously spends a lot of money to secure components to manufacture devices at scale. Amazon can't afford that. They're not profitable and they don't have a lot of cash left. Amazon isn't a big international player either, so that also limits them as a platform. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out.
Kindle Fire HD not compatible with any other Kindle apps or media. You need to re-purchase everything again if you already are using a Kindle.
To me that's a deal breaker right there. It's also using a modified Android system not compatible with anything else.
Stick with the iPad people.
Interesting that all the articles on the new Kindle are glossing over this. The cheapest Verizon plan is $360/year for an ipod. Granted it's only for 250MB, but I think a lot of your tablet users out these spend 90% of their tablet time checking email or surfing the web. This could open the door for a new kind of tablet audience. (Maybe even Mom, who has no computer or wi-fi...)
Take it from someone who reduced his data plan on his iPhone from 4GB to 300MB because I picked up a 4G LTE Hotspot device, that 300MB is not much and I used it before mid-billing cycle and went back to 3GB/month. A 250MB/month for a LTE device will be nothing and I wonder what overage charges are if they even let you go over.Quote:
Originally Posted by thataveragejoe
Sounds like Denial. People have been saying that every quarter for the last 17 years and calling Bezos crazy, yet they continue to grow, are the world's largest e-tailer and are 1/4 of the enterprise cloud computing market.
Could be for some, but not for me. I haven't followed the company for the past 17 years so I have no clue what people have been saying.
Earnings and stock prices don't necessarily move in tandem. One often leads or lags the other. But at some point, one they catch up with each other.
I said a 'few quarters.' Let's see. Check back in Fall 2013.