...but if the counter-argument, that Google's data also has plenty of errors, is correct, then there should be ample evidence in the form of examples that iOS gets correct and Google gets wrong. I haven't found any such cases in my area, and I've looked quite extensively so that I could report errors in the iOS maps, but others may have excellent examples where iOS maps are better. I'd like to hear about those for balance.
That's the same argument we see from trolls when they try to say that Android or Windows or whatever is better. They point a single instance of the other not being perfect and they think it's suppose to somehow even the playing field regardless of the ratio of flaws between them.
For instance, when it was announced the original iPad wasn't getting iOS 6 it was claimed that iOS was just as fragmented as Android. This is the sort of mental warping I'm seeing here from people defending Apple Maps without any critical thinking about ways that it's both inferior and superior.
I'm really not sure that the "prove it or you are wrong" argument adds very much to the discussion.
iOS maps is being compared to the de facto existing standard(s), and while it is very difficult to make a broad quantitative comparison, that does not invalidate sharing examples and comparing notes. Even ignoring stuff like flyover v. streetview, which is partly personal preference, it seems likely that a lot of hot air is being blown about how terrible iOS maps are, but on the other hand, numerous actual examples have been produced that show old and incomplete data. There is really not much more that anyone can do except compare individual instances, but if the counter-argument, that Google's data also has plenty of errors, is correct, then there should be ample evidence in the form of examples that iOS gets correct and Google gets wrong. I haven't found any such cases in my area, and I've looked quite extensively so that I could report errors in the iOS maps, but others may have excellent examples where iOS maps are better. I'd like to hear about those for balance.
Perhaps, but you have to consider that Google spent months poring over the Apple Maps betas to find errors. Google's iLost ad, knowingly misleading as it was, is evidence of that. It's also pretty clear that Google is feeding a stream of other errors they found to media outlets and astroturfers. So, in other words, the conversation is more than a bit one-sided, and manipulated by one interested party. They've been fairly effective at creating an impression that Apple Maps has a higher error rate than Google Maps, but there's no real evidence available to support that, just anecdotes.
I think it's a fair question for people claiming that Google Maps is "so much better", to ask them to back up that assertion based on the actual map data error rates, which is what this controversy is abou, not feature parityt, or admit that they don't really have the evidence to support it.
What does the lack of a web-based mapping service have to do with the iOS 6 Maps "blunder"?
The iOS 6 Maps app is very good. Much better than their previous Maps app but the blunder, as you put it, is with the back end and it being a complete service. Do you honestly not realize how Apple Maps works? Do you not understand that when you call a location it's querying a server?
And you're well within your right to ignore features that don't matter to you when you create your opinion and how it's a benefit or detriment to your needs. I've clearly said what features I miss but that I'm glad Apple has made the move for the common reasons stated in every fucking thread.
You can, as I have, make a rational and informed decision as to why you are willing to forego certain features in favour of other features but it is pathetic to take a feature you once expected in a maps app or enjoyed and go all sour grapes on it simply because it's no longer part of the package.
No, the issue is about the entity of Apple's mapping service, which includes every aspect of its usability.
So, you admit that you are expressing an entirely subjective opinion. That's fine, as long as you are clear about that. So, if you say, "I like Google Maps better because..." no one will argue with you. You're entitled to like what you like. But, if you present your statements in terms of objective fact, you'd better be ready to back them up with evidence.
Quote:
PS: You still haven't quantified in the way you think is "reasonable" why OS X is better or worse than Windows.
That was your statement introduced into the conversation, not mine.
I think it's a fair question for people claiming that Google Maps is "so much better", to ask them to back up that assertion based on the actual map data error rates, which is what this controversy is abou, not feature parityt, or admit that they don't really have the evidence to support it.
Don't play dumb. The issue is with utility. That includes accuracy, feature set, and responsiveness.
As previous stated Apple does wonders with the responsiveness, the UI, offering TbT when that simply wasn't possible sticking with Google Maps, and likely not having my data sold so readily, but you are ignoring the areas where Apple is still behind Google.
I'm not the one making the claim that Apple's Maps are inferior. The people making that claim have the burden of proof.
But, if you wish, I used Apple Maps to find 5 addresses. Each one gave me the same location as Google Maps. Therefore, my 'analysis' is that Apple Maps is perfect.
Prove me wrong.
OK, here's the meta-analysis from Google.
Google results for "apple maps wrong" in the past month: 2,590,000 results
Google results for "google maps wrong" in past month: 2,240,000 results
Percentage of top 10 hits for "apple maps wrong" talking about problems with Apple Maps: 100%
Percentage of top 10 hits for "google maps wrong" talking about problems with Google Maps: 20%
Thus, number of relevant hits:
Apple maps wrong: 2,590,000
Google maps wrong: 448,000
(I went for "wrong" rather than "sucks" so that its a factual statement rather than an opinion. Hopefully the number of Google maps users balances out the hysteria and newness of Apple maps)
You're reading too much into that. One, they changed every sentence in that list, not just what was highlighted. Two, the original statement of being most beautiful, powerful are subjective and too loose a definition to be any real legal issue.
I'd say most will find Apple Maps to be more beautiful and compared to iOS 5 and iOS 6 Maps on an iPhone 3GS, 4, or 4S iOS 6 Maps will run much faster.
I'm really not sure that the "prove it or you are wrong" argument adds very much to the discussion.
iOS maps is being compared to the de facto existing standard(s), and while it is very difficult to make a broad quantitative comparison, that does not invalidate sharing examples and comparing notes. Even ignoring stuff like flyover v. streetview, which is partly personal preference, it seems likely that a lot of hot air is being blown about how terrible iOS maps are, but on the other hand, numerous actual examples have been produced that show old and incomplete data. There is really not much more that anyone can do except compare individual instances, but if the counter-argument, that Google's data also has plenty of errors, is correct, then there should be ample evidence in the form of examples that iOS gets correct and Google gets wrong. I haven't found any such cases in my area, and I've looked quite extensively so that I could report errors in the iOS maps, but others may have excellent examples where iOS maps are better. I'd like to hear about those for balance.
Perhaps, but you have to consider that Google spent months poring over the Apple Maps betas to find errors. Google's iLost ad, knowingly misleading as it was, is evidence of that. It's also pretty clear that Google is feeding a stream of other errors they found to media outlets and astroturfers. So, in other words, the conversation is more than a bit one-sided, and manipulated by one interested party. They've been fairly effective at creating an impression that Apple Maps has a higher error rate than Google Maps, but there's no real evidence available to support that, just anecdotes.
I think it's a fair question for people claiming that Google Maps is "so much better", to ask them to back up that assertion based on the actual map data error rates, which is what this controversy is abou, not feature parityt, or admit that they don't really have the evidence to support it.
Agree completely about Google's role in this. On the other hand, I don't think anyone, on their own, is going to generate enough examples to produce useable error rates outside limited locales, which means we have little choice but to listen to the crowd reaction and try to separate the data from the noise.
And then there is always the concern that we are hearing disproportionately from those who are dissatisfied. I have no idea whether the comparisons that I see locally can be extrapolated to elsewhere. It does not seem unreasonable that the iOS database, being much newer, might be less extensive and have undergone less scrubbing and error correction than the Google database, but I have no way to know, and nor does that seem like a good reason to criticize Apple. If crowd-sourced information really is important in generating high-quality data in this kind of application, then they had no option but to release in this form.
The quote at the end of this article from a former employee Referring to Apple as a hardware company is interesting. I know a lot of people like John Gruber argue that Apple is a software company but I disagree. Ultimately Apple is a product company but I would argue they're more of a hardware company than a software company. That's where they make most of their profit, and the iTunes/iOS ecosystem is there to sell iPods, iPhones and iPads, not the other way around. If Apple's software was packaged in crappy plastic would it sell well at all? I doubt it.
I wish Apple would get back to remembering what they do best, and outsource the rest. Google doesn't build hardware, why does Apple need to be in the mapping business?
The iOS 6 Maps app is very good. Much better than their previous Maps app but the blunder, as you put it, is with the back end and it being a complete service. Do you honestly not realize how Apple Maps works? Do you not understand that when you call a location it's querying a server?
I didn't call it a blunder. I was merely quoting the headline.
The quote at the end of this article from a former employee Referring to Apple as a hardware company is interesting. I know a lot of people like John Gruber argue that Apple is a software company but I disagree. Ultimately Apple is a product company but I would argue they're more of a hardware company than a software company. That's where they make most of their profit, and the iTunes/iOS ecosystem is there to sell iPods, iPhones and iPads, not the other way around. If Apple's software was packaged in crappy plastic would it sell well at all? I doubt it.
I wish Apple would get back to remembering what they do best, and outsource the rest. Google doesn't build hardware, why does Apple need to be in the mapping business?
Why does Apple need to be in the retail music business?
The quote at the end of this article from a former employee Referring to Apple as a hardware company is interesting. I know a lot of people like John Gruber argue that Apple is a software company but I disagree. Ultimately Apple is a product company but I would argue they're more of a hardware company than a software company. That's where they make most of their profit, and the iTunes/iOS ecosystem is there to sell iPods, iPhones and iPads, not the other way around. If Apple's software was packaged in crappy plastic would it sell well at all? I doubt it.
I wish Apple would get back to remembering what they do best, and outsource the rest. Google doesn't build hardware, why does Apple need to be in the mapping business?
I think Gruber has been calling Apple an experience company in recent years.
Thank God. "The most powerful"? I'm using Apple Map and I don't have any problem with it apart from no traffic info in my country but I don't think for a second that it's the most powerful right now.
You are mistaken on just about every comment you made. Sure Apple is not above criticism, but to suggest that hat they deserve "substantial" criticism starts to wreak of typical iHater rhetoric. Just how many of the 5 million ip[hones last week were scratched? forbes reported a few dozen... It was a small isolated instance that I am sure was addressed and rectified promptly. QC at Apple is not lacking, they are the top of consumer satisfaction surveys and will continue to hold that position for a long time to come. Cook and Clan? what the hell is that supposed to mean? You sound like a troll, and an iHater, or maybe just a typical droid dork by the tone of your post.
Apple are doomed to mediocrity huh? Is that what their sales numbers and satisfaction surveys say? Guess again, iThink you need to step back and take a deep breathe before you post such ridiculous ill-informed comments again.
By the way, Apple is shining like never before and it keeps getting brighter. We all wish Steve Jobs was still here to enjoy the wonderful devices and products Apple are introducing, If he were here I am sure he would be smiling knowing that Apple are diminishing goofles presence on their awesome iDevices.
How can anyone say with a straight face that Jony Ive is a spreadsheet guy? Loooool
Google results for "apple maps wrong" in the past month: 2,590,000 results
Google results for "google maps wrong" in past month: 2,240,000 results
Percentage of top 10 hits for "apple maps wrong" talking about problems with Apple Maps: 100%
Percentage of top 10 hits for "google maps wrong" talking about problems with Google Maps: 20%
Thus, number of relevant hits:
Apple maps wrong: 2,590,000
Google maps wrong: 448,000
(I went for "wrong" rather than "sucks" so that its a factual statement rather than an opinion. Hopefully the number of Google maps users balances out the hysteria and newness of Apple maps)
Sorry, but hits on Google doesn't back up your assertions at all. If you don't understand why, you probably shouldn't be making statements about anything asserting what is better.
Don't play dumb. The issue is with utility. That includes accuracy, feature set, and responsiveness.
As previous stated Apple does wonders with the responsiveness, the UI, offering TbT when that simply wasn't possible sticking with Google Maps, and likely not having my data sold so readily, but you are ignoring the areas where Apple is still behind Google.
Exactly what are those areas and exactly how far behind is Apple in them?
Living here in Ontario, Canada, maps may be more of an issue. Analyses has shown that we have dropped off the face of Apple iOS 6 maps, with only about 30-40% of towns and cities accurately placed, or even placed at all. However I rarely used iPhone maps, and never used in small towns. For rare out of car use, I bought a 3rd party map app as Google maps was often wrong. It is not Apple's finest moment but I can honestly say that this map issue is not a factor in my continued use of iPhone nor a deterrent in upgrading to iPhone 5.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
What do web-based maps have to do with using maps on the web? That's what you're asking?
What does the lack of a web-based mapping service have to do with the iOS 6 Maps "blunder"?
That's the same argument we see from trolls when they try to say that Android or Windows or whatever is better. They point a single instance of the other not being perfect and they think it's suppose to somehow even the playing field regardless of the ratio of flaws between them.
For instance, when it was announced the original iPad wasn't getting iOS 6 it was claimed that iOS was just as fragmented as Android. This is the sort of mental warping I'm seeing here from people defending Apple Maps without any critical thinking about ways that it's both inferior and superior.
Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetry
I'm really not sure that the "prove it or you are wrong" argument adds very much to the discussion.
iOS maps is being compared to the de facto existing standard(s), and while it is very difficult to make a broad quantitative comparison, that does not invalidate sharing examples and comparing notes. Even ignoring stuff like flyover v. streetview, which is partly personal preference, it seems likely that a lot of hot air is being blown about how terrible iOS maps are, but on the other hand, numerous actual examples have been produced that show old and incomplete data. There is really not much more that anyone can do except compare individual instances, but if the counter-argument, that Google's data also has plenty of errors, is correct, then there should be ample evidence in the form of examples that iOS gets correct and Google gets wrong. I haven't found any such cases in my area, and I've looked quite extensively so that I could report errors in the iOS maps, but others may have excellent examples where iOS maps are better. I'd like to hear about those for balance.
Perhaps, but you have to consider that Google spent months poring over the Apple Maps betas to find errors. Google's iLost ad, knowingly misleading as it was, is evidence of that. It's also pretty clear that Google is feeding a stream of other errors they found to media outlets and astroturfers. So, in other words, the conversation is more than a bit one-sided, and manipulated by one interested party. They've been fairly effective at creating an impression that Apple Maps has a higher error rate than Google Maps, but there's no real evidence available to support that, just anecdotes.
I think it's a fair question for people claiming that Google Maps is "so much better", to ask them to back up that assertion based on the actual map data error rates, which is what this controversy is abou, not feature parityt, or admit that they don't really have the evidence to support it.
The iOS 6 Maps app is very good. Much better than their previous Maps app but the blunder, as you put it, is with the back end and it being a complete service. Do you honestly not realize how Apple Maps works? Do you not understand that when you call a location it's querying a server?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
And you're well within your right to ignore features that don't matter to you when you create your opinion and how it's a benefit or detriment to your needs. I've clearly said what features I miss but that I'm glad Apple has made the move for the common reasons stated in every fucking thread.
You can, as I have, make a rational and informed decision as to why you are willing to forego certain features in favour of other features but it is pathetic to take a feature you once expected in a maps app or enjoyed and go all sour grapes on it simply because it's no longer part of the package.
No, the issue is about the entity of Apple's mapping service, which includes every aspect of its usability.
So, you admit that you are expressing an entirely subjective opinion. That's fine, as long as you are clear about that. So, if you say, "I like Google Maps better because..." no one will argue with you. You're entitled to like what you like. But, if you present your statements in terms of objective fact, you'd better be ready to back them up with evidence.
Quote:
PS: You still haven't quantified in the way you think is "reasonable" why OS X is better or worse than Windows.
That was your statement introduced into the conversation, not mine.
Apple apparently had modified it's description of Maps in the last 24 hours.
http://idaily.de/wp-content/uploads//2012/09/maps_no_longer_powerful.jpg
Don't play dumb. The issue is with utility. That includes accuracy, feature set, and responsiveness.
As previous stated Apple does wonders with the responsiveness, the UI, offering TbT when that simply wasn't possible sticking with Google Maps, and likely not having my data sold so readily, but you are ignoring the areas where Apple is still behind Google.
OK, here's the meta-analysis from Google.
Google results for "apple maps wrong" in the past month: 2,590,000 results
Google results for "google maps wrong" in past month: 2,240,000 results
Percentage of top 10 hits for "apple maps wrong" talking about problems with Apple Maps: 100%
Percentage of top 10 hits for "google maps wrong" talking about problems with Google Maps: 20%
Thus, number of relevant hits:
Apple maps wrong: 2,590,000
Google maps wrong: 448,000
(I went for "wrong" rather than "sucks" so that its a factual statement rather than an opinion. Hopefully the number of Google maps users balances out the hysteria and newness of Apple maps)
You're reading too much into that. One, they changed every sentence in that list, not just what was highlighted. Two, the original statement of being most beautiful, powerful are subjective and too loose a definition to be any real legal issue.
I'd say most will find Apple Maps to be more beautiful and compared to iOS 5 and iOS 6 Maps on an iPhone 3GS, 4, or 4S iOS 6 Maps will run much faster.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse
Quote:
Originally Posted by muppetry
I'm really not sure that the "prove it or you are wrong" argument adds very much to the discussion.
iOS maps is being compared to the de facto existing standard(s), and while it is very difficult to make a broad quantitative comparison, that does not invalidate sharing examples and comparing notes. Even ignoring stuff like flyover v. streetview, which is partly personal preference, it seems likely that a lot of hot air is being blown about how terrible iOS maps are, but on the other hand, numerous actual examples have been produced that show old and incomplete data. There is really not much more that anyone can do except compare individual instances, but if the counter-argument, that Google's data also has plenty of errors, is correct, then there should be ample evidence in the form of examples that iOS gets correct and Google gets wrong. I haven't found any such cases in my area, and I've looked quite extensively so that I could report errors in the iOS maps, but others may have excellent examples where iOS maps are better. I'd like to hear about those for balance.
Perhaps, but you have to consider that Google spent months poring over the Apple Maps betas to find errors. Google's iLost ad, knowingly misleading as it was, is evidence of that. It's also pretty clear that Google is feeding a stream of other errors they found to media outlets and astroturfers. So, in other words, the conversation is more than a bit one-sided, and manipulated by one interested party. They've been fairly effective at creating an impression that Apple Maps has a higher error rate than Google Maps, but there's no real evidence available to support that, just anecdotes.
I think it's a fair question for people claiming that Google Maps is "so much better", to ask them to back up that assertion based on the actual map data error rates, which is what this controversy is abou, not feature parityt, or admit that they don't really have the evidence to support it.
Agree completely about Google's role in this. On the other hand, I don't think anyone, on their own, is going to generate enough examples to produce useable error rates outside limited locales, which means we have little choice but to listen to the crowd reaction and try to separate the data from the noise.
And then there is always the concern that we are hearing disproportionately from those who are dissatisfied. I have no idea whether the comparisons that I see locally can be extrapolated to elsewhere. It does not seem unreasonable that the iOS database, being much newer, might be less extensive and have undergone less scrubbing and error correction than the Google database, but I have no way to know, and nor does that seem like a good reason to criticize Apple. If crowd-sourced information really is important in generating high-quality data in this kind of application, then they had no option but to release in this form.
I wish Apple would get back to remembering what they do best, and outsource the rest. Google doesn't build hardware, why does Apple need to be in the mapping business?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
The iOS 6 Maps app is very good. Much better than their previous Maps app but the blunder, as you put it, is with the back end and it being a complete service. Do you honestly not realize how Apple Maps works? Do you not understand that when you call a location it's querying a server?
I didn't call it a blunder. I was merely quoting the headline.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan
The quote at the end of this article from a former employee Referring to Apple as a hardware company is interesting. I know a lot of people like John Gruber argue that Apple is a software company but I disagree. Ultimately Apple is a product company but I would argue they're more of a hardware company than a software company. That's where they make most of their profit, and the iTunes/iOS ecosystem is there to sell iPods, iPhones and iPads, not the other way around. If Apple's software was packaged in crappy plastic would it sell well at all? I doubt it.
I wish Apple would get back to remembering what they do best, and outsource the rest. Google doesn't build hardware, why does Apple need to be in the mapping business?
Why does Apple need to be in the retail music business?
I think Gruber has been calling Apple an experience company in recent years.
Thank God. "The most powerful"? I'm using Apple Map and I don't have any problem with it apart from no traffic info in my country but I don't think for a second that it's the most powerful right now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichL
OK, here's the meta-analysis from Google.
Google results for "apple maps wrong" in the past month: 2,590,000 results
Google results for "google maps wrong" in past month: 2,240,000 results
Percentage of top 10 hits for "apple maps wrong" talking about problems with Apple Maps: 100%
Percentage of top 10 hits for "google maps wrong" talking about problems with Google Maps: 20%
Thus, number of relevant hits:
Apple maps wrong: 2,590,000
Google maps wrong: 448,000
(I went for "wrong" rather than "sucks" so that its a factual statement rather than an opinion. Hopefully the number of Google maps users balances out the hysteria and newness of Apple maps)
Sorry, but hits on Google doesn't back up your assertions at all. If you don't understand why, you probably shouldn't be making statements about anything asserting what is better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
Don't play dumb. The issue is with utility. That includes accuracy, feature set, and responsiveness.
As previous stated Apple does wonders with the responsiveness, the UI, offering TbT when that simply wasn't possible sticking with Google Maps, and likely not having my data sold so readily, but you are ignoring the areas where Apple is still behind Google.
Exactly what are those areas and exactly how far behind is Apple in them?