Apple reportedly knew of iOS Maps troubles well before launch

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  • Reply 101 of 142
    vadaniavadania Posts: 425member
    vaelian wrote: »
    Believe it or not but I don't feel the urge to fight this back, so I'll let you win the argument because it is indeed true that in that post I was not completely honest with the audience. I did not feel like it was needed at the time, my only point was to destroy your argument that people should be forced to officially report problems in order to enroll in the developer program. I have no problem admitting defeat as I'm sitting on my own piss now.
    Nicely spotted though.

    If "admitting defeat" is your way of apologizing, then apology accepted. :o)

    "Destroy your argument" I suppose would be referencing my simple suggestion, albeit naive, on how to improve the developer program. I'll still hold that thought. It needs to be improved somehow. Even a minor change would make it better. I do understand your point that it would lead to a rather large amount of useless submissions. However attacking me because of my naive view wasn't very heroic on your part.

    I'm still confounded by you even eluding to the fact that I'm promiscuous simply because I stated my gender.

    Anyway, if that was a long way around an apology.... Accepted!
  • Reply 102 of 142
    anonymouseanonymouse Posts: 6,578member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Vaelian View Post





    I find your claim that I contradict myself quite odd. If you've witnessed contradiction, I'm sure you could have pointed it out for debate, so why haven't you? Secondly, I am actually one of the very few people on this who actually back up their claims, so what exactly are you referring to? Do you have any evidence of your own to validate any of these accusations?

    Yeah, no way in hell reasonable people could agree with me, right? Because to you, I'm wrong by default, isn't it? You know what that is? Prejudice! Bigotry!


     


    Your contradictions have already been pointed out to you on this site, along with the illogic of your various conflicting statements. It's not necessary to rehash that every time you pop up.


     


    But, no, there is no way in hell "reasonable people" could agree with you. Not because your wrong by default, simply because you're wrong.


     


    Guess you decided to throw logic out the window there with your cries of prejudice, bigotry and persecution. Contradicted yourself again. You can't even make it to the next page where maybe no one will notice.

  • Reply 103 of 142
    vadaniavadania Posts: 425member
    gazoobee wrote: »
    I vote for this post as being the only interesting one on the entire thread.  :-)

    On another related note ... I came across what might be an interesting bug in iOS 6 maps this weekend.  

    I was in a National Park hiking through the woods and I lost my bearings for a bit so I pulled out the maps app to see what was what.  I had it set on a combo view of the road info and the satellite picture and I noticed right away that the road I was searching for was the equivalent of about 4 city blocks to the south.  I also noticed that the satellite imagery, which also clearly showed the road, was showing it more like 2.5 or 3 city blocks to the south instead.  Okay, so the satellite imagery and the maps did not match ... ideal time to send a report to the maps people at Apple right?  

    I decided to walk through the forest to the road, so that I was actually standing on the error when I reported it, thinking that this might be a good thing.  I also wasn't sure exactly which of the two were right.  Was the satellite image accurate or the map itself?  By the time I get to the road and stand on it, the satellite imagery and the road on the map were now in complete alignment.  Shock!  

    I am completely certain that I wasn't mistaken about the mis-alignment I originally saw, which means to me that iOS 6 maps not only has bad data it has some kind of bad code in it that mis-aligns things "on the fly."  I know that sounds dumb/unbelievable/unlikely etc. but that's what happened.  Either someone in the server room was fixing that particular map in between my two viewings or the map data was actually dynamically "bad."  

    If true, it kind of suggests that there is more at work here than simply bad data. 

    This is what I have been stating here. You have finally noticed the low resolution pixel density of the satellite imagery. The "road" data may be correct and the GPS will show it as such. The problem exists in the pixel density of the satellite image. When one mapping pixel = 1000' instead of 100' you will have inconsistencies such as you experienced. However, once you traveled to the new base point pixel and checked again it realigned the map. You actually have to travel to the pixel base point.

    This anomaly only exists in the satellite view and hybrid view. The mapping resolutions are very low and I have been stating this since iOS 6 was originally released. This is also a scalable problem and obviously varies depending on your zoom level.

    As I also stated, it a minor issue. Unless your landing a rover or probe for N.A.S.A. However at some scale points the maps are visually horrendous.

    And yes, Googles satellite imagery is far superior in pixel density. I believe it's almost double, which is quite an improvement for a map. "Double" is only an educated guess however.
  • Reply 104 of 142
    davemcm76 wrote: »
    http://maps.google.com - drop a pin and a streetview button magically appears, so how is this lost? Create a shortcut on your homescreen and you don't even have to keep typing it in.

    The streetview data is part of the google maps data set. Apple made it quite clear right from the first iOS 6 announcement way back in May that they were no longer going to be using the google maps data so why you would have expected streetview to still exist in the Maps app when none of the rest of the map data was coming from google?

    Because like Apple never mentioned they were incapable of providing it themselves ?
  • Reply 105 of 142
    gazoobeegazoobee Posts: 3,754member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Vadania View Post





    This is what I have been stating here. You have finally noticed the low resolution pixel density of the satellite imagery. The "road" data may be correct and the GPS will show it as such. The problem exists in the pixel density of the satellite image. When one mapping pixel = 1000' instead of 100' you will have inconsistencies such as you experienced. However, once you traveled to the new base point pixel and checked again it realigned the map. You actually have to travel to the pixel base point.

    This anomaly only exists in the satellite view and hybrid view. The mapping resolutions are very low and I have been stating this since iOS 6 was originally released. This is also a scalable problem and obviously varies depending on your zoom level.

    As I also stated, it a minor issue. Unless your landing a rover or probe for N.A.S.A. However at some scale points the maps are visually horrendous.

    And yes, Googles satellite imagery is far superior in pixel density. I believe it's almost double, which is quite an improvement for a map. "Double" is only an educated guess however.


     


    Interesting analysis, I hadn't thought of that at all.  


     


    I don't think this is quite what was happening to me though because the distance was "a couple of blocks" instead of miles and miles, the pixel density of the images was quite high (individual trees could be seen), and I never changed resolution (zoomed in or out).  If the satellite imagery is that bad or that badly aligned that the position of a road can change by a block or so when measured at two points that are themselves only a few blocks apart, then all hope is lost and navigation is impossible. 


     


    I am prepared to entertain the possibility that I was simply mistaken as I think I said in the first post, but I don't think you're explanation really fits for what happened in this particular case.  Thanks for the insight though. 

  • Reply 106 of 142
    vaelianvaelian Posts: 446member
    You cannot go before a court and win a lawsuit saying you were "deceived," because Apple made no claim about the lack of defects. They specifically say that iOS is provided "as is" WITH ALL FAULTS. iOS has always had bugs, going all the way back to version 1.0. The only deception going on is you, deceiving yourself.

    For starters, I don't recall ever mentioning warranties or legalese, and secondly we're talking about a company that is known to attempt to deceive EU consumers about their warranty rights.

    dbh wrote: »
    as per my last information, iPhone 5 is not a GPS device like Garmin... so can you please explain further on your point?

    You may wish to take a look at the specifications then, where GPS is clearly listed as a function, and for a time they were even advertising the best maps on the block.

    metrix wrote: »
    You don't get it. Apple was more than happy to ditch Google and the quicker the better. You see they wanted Google to say ohhh crap what do you mean all these users aren't using our maps anymore. And yes they will dump the Google Search too. I will be happy to rid Google from all my Apple devices. I am glad they took more immediate action then to wait for Google to prepare, I hope they look for every possible reason not to approve any Google Apps.

    While I can understand Apple being happy, I can not understand you being happy... Why would apple's partnerships be of relevance to you as a consumer? I've blamed Google of not playing well with others in the past because they've essentially antagonized Facebook, Twitter, Appel, Microsoft, you name it; and the Apple I liked wasn't like that; they understood that if they wanted the best services for which they don't have in-house expertise, they should partners with the best providers of those services; it is now clear that this idea died with Jobs, so what makes you so happy about the new MO?

    rayz wrote: »
    Might be true of small applications. Certainly doesn't apply to anything as complex as an operating system or a mapping application.

    There isn't really much complexity involved in a mapping app; most of the work revolves around database development, and that's work you are expected to have completed by the time the app goes live (I'm talking about defining schemas, storage, and retrieval algorithms, not data). When you launch an application whose searchable data isn't even in sync with the browsable data, you have a fundamental problem that should have been addressed long before production. That can't be excused. Even things as simple as matching an 'a' to an 'â', or a 'c' to a 'ç' fail in Apple's maps, and those aren't slight oversights.

    rayz wrote: »
    I used to work for a utility company who had vendors come in and quote for a piece of software work. Two of the vendors really stood out: the first claimed that their software would be 100% bug free on release; the second claimed that they would not release it to us until every single known bug was ironed out. Neither of them got the contract, and when the programmes manager was asked why, he saId:

    "Vendor 1 demonstrated a tenuous grip on reality. Vendor 2 had a better grasp of reality but would never make a delivery."

    I have no idea why AppleInsider thinks that Apple releasing software with known bugs is worthy of an article. Now if Apple had released Maps and had no idea it needed a lot more work, then that would have been news.

    You're missing the point. The problem is not the bugs themselves but rather announcing their solution as the best, replacing a working solution that people trusted without an option to go back, and not communicating the known bugs to the public. That's deception. Even the first beta release didn't mention anything about known Maps bugs despite mentioning small things like the keyboard clicking sounds not always playing, implying that their Maps app was perfect.

    vadania wrote: »
    If "admitting defeat" is your way of apologizing, then apology accepted. :o)

    It is not, it was just the recognition that your observation in this thread was right and I do not wish to subject you to unnecessary arguments. Usually I only keep up arguments when I'm either facing someone who likes to argue or someone demonstrating ill intent; lighthearted people who don't like to argue and aren't there to belittle others are not supposed to be targeted, and sometimes I may even stand for them. I mistook you for the former two groups combined when you actually belong to the third, and this mistake was caused both by your position and the way you replied to me in that thread. The reason why I'm not apologizing is because I don't think there was a procedural error in the way I acted, as I acted based on the information I had at the time and would do it again under the same conditions, so apologizing would be an hypocritical act.

    vadania wrote: »
    "Destroy your argument" I suppose would be referencing my simple suggestion, albeit naive, on how to improve the developer program. I'll still hold that thought. It needs to be improved somehow. Even a minor change would make it better. I do understand your point that it would lead to a rather large amount of useless submissions. However attacking me because of my naive view wasn't very heroic on your part.

    And I still hold to my opinion that Apple does not give a shit about my feedback unless I'm exposing a security hole or a fundamental flaw, and even then they are known to downplay or outright ignore reports until those situations are picked up by the media, at which time they resort to charging their legal LASER cannons. While I don't and didn't officially make any reports about Maps issues, I did make reports through my connections at Apple and was told that iOS 6 without Google Maps would happen either way and nothing could stop or delay it.

    vadania wrote: »
    I'm still confounded by you even eluding to the fact that I'm promiscuous simply because I stated my gender.

    I see no logical or even moral reason to consider promiscuity a bad thing.

    vadania wrote: »
    Anyway, if that was a long way around an apology.... Accepted!

    While it was not, knowing what I do now, I'm sorry if I've caused any kind of emotional distress. It is not my intent to cause any kind of harm to those who do not deserve it.
  • Reply 107 of 142


    Originally Posted by lightknight View Post

    When what developers say go with your own opinion, it's gospel, else "why do you care about it"? Come on.


     


    Mmm… no. Anyone with Beta 1 could have been polled and a story drummed up. Anonymity is meaningless here.

  • Reply 108 of 142
    gazoobee wrote: »
    Interesting analysis, I hadn't thought of that at all.  

    I don't think this is quite what was happening to me though because the distance was "a couple of blocks" instead of miles and miles, the pixel density of the images was quite high (individual trees could be seen), and I never changed resolution (zoomed in or out).  If the satellite imagery is that bad or that badly aligned that the position of a road can change by a block or so when measured at two points that are themselves only a few blocks apart, then all hope is lost and navigation is impossible. 

    I am prepared to entertain the possibility that I was simply mistaken as I think I said in the first post, but I don't think you're explanation really fits for what happened in this particular case.  Thanks for the insight though. 

    I was using large numbers i.e. 1000' for simplicity of the point, not accuracy of the point. I can see if I can have someone get the actual breakdown, but its different for every scale point.

    However if you bring it down to a more realistic standpoint, say 4'per pixel, you will get exactly what we have. While your actual spot on the map may take up 1.5 - 2', the pixel resolution is 4'. Over the course of three or four city blocks it's a rather large discrepancy. Which you noticed. Indeed that's very noticeable! You would still see trees with a 3' or 4' pixel density. Actually I still think it's higher than 4'.

    As I said also, the problems scales so the discrepancy becomes larger as the image is zoomed out.

    Again, it's not a huge issue. But I noticed it the very second I looked at the new maps. I believe my reaction was "oh no!".

    It's worse because my beautiful Weather Channel app isn't as beautiful anymore....
  • Reply 109 of 142
    anonymouse wrote: »
    Your contradictions have already been pointed out to you on this site, along with the illogic of your various conflicting statements. It's not necessary to rehash that every time you pop up.

    You have burden of proof and are throwing baseless accusations, of course it's necessary, so either demonstrate my contradictions or stop posting bullshit. Your current argument is based on an appeal to popularity fallacy, you have zero logical grounds to stand on!

    anonymouse wrote: »
    Guess you decided to throw logic out the window there with your cries of prejudice, bigotry and persecution. Contradicted yourself again. You can't even make it to the next page where maybe no one will notice.

    Can you please state the nature of the contradiction? What were my contradictory stances in that example? Please, by all means, analyze that statement and tell me!
  • Reply 110 of 142
    vaelian wrote: »
    While it was not, knowing what I do now, I'm sorry if I've caused any kind of emotional distress. It is not my intent to cause any kind of harm to those who do not deserve it.

    I do understand your points, and.... Thank you! :o)
  • Reply 111 of 142
    evilutionevilution Posts: 1,357member


    I don't see the issue. The developers are there to check to see if the software works and Apple maps (as software) does work.


    Why would Apple spend years and millions of pounds checking and sorting errors when they can make it half decent and let the public check stuff and report it.


    Seems like the obvious, fastest and best thing to do.

  • Reply 112 of 142
    mstonemstone Posts: 11,510member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post  


     


    I was in a National Park hiking through the woods and I lost my bearings for a bit so I pulled out the maps app to see what was what.  I had it set on a combo view of the road info and the satellite picture and I noticed right away that the road I was searching for was the equivalent of about 4 city blocks to the south.  I also noticed that the satellite imagery, which also clearly showed the road, was showing it more like 2.5 or 3 city blocks to the south instead.  Okay, so the satellite imagery and the maps did not match ... ideal time to send a report to the maps people at Apple right?  



    This is not uncommon in aerial imagery. It happens in Google maps as well. The roads are drawn using KML data which is geometric and plots on the curvature of the earth. The photo is imaged on a flat sensor through a curved lens and then the tiles are stitched. There is both parallax error and lens fall off on the edges that account for some distortion. There are other factors as well such as the altitude at which the image was taken and the latitude of your location. Depending on how far from the center of the map tile your location is will determine the amount of misalignment.

  • Reply 113 of 142


    For all those complaining about the lack of streetview without going to the web version, try the free APP called Live Street View (or the $0.99 version).  I have not tried it or used it, but I know it exists. 

  • Reply 114 of 142


    I've been working on an app to put Google Maps back on iOS6 devices. It's called Egg Maps. It's been submitted to the app store, but hasn't yet been approved. It's very fast, and does directions and tracking. It uses google maps. Check out:

    http://www.eggmaps.com/

    I'll let you know when it's been released.

  • Reply 115 of 142
    antkm1antkm1 Posts: 1,441member


    Funny this article should come up when it did.


    I had been discussing something like this just the other day on another forum.


     


    Quote:


    Oct 8, 2012 11:34 AM


    And this isn't just a maps problem.  Other users on the thread have already said the new maps data and search is harming the functionally of other apps that piggyback off the native maps data as well.  In my experience, I have several apps that have not worked as well because of the switch to maps.app.  "Find my friends" can't locate my friends and places them miles away (with a huge blue circle) from where I know for a fact they currently are (testing the app out).  "Urbanspoon" has suffered as well as "open table", Trailers.app and any other apps that piggy backs on the native maps.


  • Reply 116 of 142
    antkm1antkm1 Posts: 1,441member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mstone View Post


    This is not uncommon in aerial imagery. It happens in Google maps as well. The roads are drawn using KML data which is geometric and plots on the curvature of the earth. The photo is imaged on a flat sensor through a curved lens and then the tiles are stitched. There is both parallax error and lens fall off on the edges that account for some distortion. There are other factors as well such as the altitude at which the image was taken and the latitude of your location. Depending on how far from the center of the map tile your location is will determine the amount of misalignment.



    This very issue happens to me whenever i go to Beijing (about 6 mos. of the year).  Google had the satellite image about 1800 ft. West and 600 ft. South of the map overlay and subway lines.  Very frustrating.  I have reported to Google on this, but they don't make it very easy to report problems in China...so I had to send a general report from a US location instead.  Since then (about 16 mos. later) Google has now removed the hybrid view in Beijing.  So now you get only Standard View or satellite view.  Which is probably a stop-gap for them until they get it resolved.   Only problem is, the Subway lines still show up in the Satellite view.


     


    At this point, I'll take that as a quick fix.  Given the fact that Apple Maps don't even show Subway lines overlaid at all, and don't show the station plans in standard view either...needless to say i'm going to be using my 3GS with iOS 5.1.1 from now on in China.  Dumb of me to blindly update my iP4 and iPad2.

  • Reply 117 of 142
    19831983 Posts: 1,172member
    The fact that they knew their new product was crap and decided to release it anyway is disgraceful and an insult to their customers! Adding more insult to injury they still had a whole year left on their contract with Google. So they could of held off releasing it for that year until iOS 7 was out to fix all the major bugs that existed and release a solid and maybe superior product to Google Maps that everybody would of been happy with. In Steve's bio it was mentioned that Tim Cook wasn't a product guy and this Maps debacle together with the continuing issue of the IPhone 5's 'scuffgate' is testimony to that. I'm a huge Apple fan but if they continue to screw up like this Google and maybe even Microsoft with Windows Phone 8 are going to surpass them, with Apple becoming just another HP! I really don't want this to happen so I hope the company gets its act together. But its genius is gone and its starting to show...
  • Reply 118 of 142


    Originally Posted by 1983 View Post

    The fact that they knew their new product was crap and decided to release it anyway is disgraceful and an insult to their customers!


     


    This is a rumor. That is subjectivity.


     



    So they could of held off releasing it for that year until iOS 7 was out to fix all the major bugs…


     


    That's not how it works.






    …everybody would of been happy with.



     


    Do you really believe this? image


     



    I'm a huge Apple fan but if they continue to screw up like this Google and maybe even Microsoft with Windows Phone 8 are going to surpass them, with Apple becoming just another HP! I really don't want this to happen so I hope the company gets its act together. But its genius is gone and its starting to show...


     



  • Reply 119 of 142
    vadaniavadania Posts: 425member
    gazoobee wrote: »
    Interesting analysis, I hadn't thought of that at all.  

    I don't think this is quite what was happening to me though because the distance was "a couple of blocks" instead of miles and miles, the pixel density of the images was quite high (individual trees could be seen), and I never changed resolution (zoomed in or out).  If the satellite imagery is that bad or that badly aligned that the position of a road can change by a block or so when measured at two points that are themselves only a few blocks apart, then all hope is lost and navigation is impossible. 

    I am prepared to entertain the possibility that I was simply mistaken as I think I said in the first post, but I don't think you're explanation really fits for what happened in this particular case.  Thanks for the insight though. 

    O.k. I finally sent an e-mail to someone with a Phd. in satellite imagery just because I knew I wasn't crazy that my view of New England has changed. It turns out I'm only partially right. (REALLY condensing his email here...). Apparently Google uses many different types of images at varying altitudes for their maps, and most of New England is actually photographed by plane at an altitude of around 1000'. Apple is only using satellite imagery except for their 'Flyover' feature. So the resolution in my area did change, but probably not everyone's. :o)

    That explains why I noticed an immediate change and others may not have seen a difference.

    Oh we'll... I'll shut up about maps now.

    I'm away on vacation for a couple of weeks so I will have to wait until I get back to get the full explanation. Of which I'm sure will be legnthy!
  • Reply 120 of 142
    vadaniavadania Posts: 425member


    LL
    LL

    How high does your list go? Is this something that you collaborated on with the other moderators? Can you post the whole list? ...or e-mail it to me?

    I think that's hilarious! LOL

    As Homer Simpson would say "It's funny because it's true!"
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