I'll bet that any Samsung division responsible for fabricating chips for Apple would rather side with their client than with their parent.
I agree.. There is a similar situation in the company I work for.
yes, but division presidents like their jobs, and especially in Eastern Business Culture, it's all about being a company man. You don't see too many Asian Corporate types resigning due to 'philosophical differences'
go to Samsung Electronics' investor relations and look up 2011 annual report. Is that so hard to do?
Samsung Electronics and Consolidated Business 2011 income (sales) : 165,002B KRW or around $150B USD
hate to disappoint you - Apple may be a big consumer electronic giant now, but the world doesn't evolve around Apple.
You use an interesting choice of words here: "but the world doesn't evolve around Apple." Even your subconscious knows your arguments regarding Apple ring false!
go to Samsung Electronics' investor relations and look up 2011 annual report. Is that so hard to do?
Samsung Electronics and Consolidated Business 2011 income (sales) : 165,002B KRW or around $150B USD
hate to disappoint you - Apple may be a big consumer electronic giant now, but the world doesn't evolve around Apple.
Thanks for proving my point. Did you miss the word "consolidated" in their name? If you had read further you'd realize that the semiconductor and component divisions only make up about 30-35% (depending on quarter) of that amount. The $150 billion INCLUDES their smartphone sales, TV's, laptops, digital cameras, home theatre, camcorders....you name it.
In the first 6 months of 2012 Samsung Electronics sold about 92 trillion KRW and of that 27 trillion was semiconductors & displays. By my math that's only 29% of their total sales.
So Apple's sales of their semiconductor and display/components is more like 20% (or more) since I'm pretty sure the billions Apple spends dont go towards TV's and smartphones.
You going to come back and say 20% is an insignificant portion of their sales?
I'll bet that any Samsung division responsible for fabricating chips for Apple would rather side with their client than with their parent.
Unfortunately, as we learned from the patent trial, it was this Samsung chip division that initiated the "copy the hell out of Apple" report submitted to the Samsung phone division. ethics seems to be totally missing when it comes to South Koreans.
Thanks for proving my point. Did you miss the word "consolidated" in their name? If you had read further you'd realize that the semiconductor and component divisions only make up about 30-35% (depending on quarter) of that amount. The $150 billion INCLUDES their smartphone sales, TV's, laptops, digital cameras, home theatre, camcorders....you name it.
In the first 6 months of 2012 Samsung Electronics sold about 92 trillion KRW and of that 27 trillion was semiconductors & displays. By my math that's only 29% of their total sales.
So Apple's sales of their semiconductor and display/components is more like 20% (or more) since I'm pretty sure the billions Apple spends dont go towards TV's and smartphones.
You going to come back and say 20% is an insignificant portion of their sales?
Thanks for playing, troll.
ROFL!! Well, pathetic, but nice try. You fanboys really sound desperate. ROFL!!
Of course, $150B includes all Samsung mobile, semi sales as well as oversea sales by its foreign subsidiaries - that's what "consolidated" means. That's precisely why I stated "Apple' share of Samsung Electronic's overall Sales is still less than 8%." Whether Apple buys microwaves from Samsung's home appliance division or not is immaterial.
Another thing people seem to miss is that every billion Apple takes from Samsung is a billion they spend at one of Samsung's competitors. Money those competitors can use to improve their facilities and expand their production capabiltities. Or invest into R&D on newer technology.
Which means that Apple, in moving their business elsewhere, has twice the effect on Samsung's profits.
I really hoped that the recent patent trial loss would have given Samsung a wake-up nudge that could have benefited both companies. Alas, the lack of ethics at Samsung is completely lacking.
If Amazon buys Texas Instruments this gets very interesting indeed!
Actually for Amazon to buy a TI plant is an indication that someone at Amazon has lost their way.
First off, TI wouldn't sell one of their most modern factories. Secondly, once a plant is completed it is already racing toward obsolescence. It's extremely expensive to own a semiconductor factory, plus keeping the talent is hard. Any whiff of bad news and the engineers are gone faster than fruit pickers when the immigration police show up. Amazon will live to regret this purchase which Apple is too smart to even consider.
And the CPU guy used to be the VP of design at AMD for 16 years. What's wrong with poaching him? Who do you think designs stuff at Apple? It's brilliant people - so why shouldn't they hire brilliant people?
I believe I read that he was only at Samsung for a few months (definitely less than a year) before leaving to go to Apple. Perhaps he didn't like it at Sammy.
If Amazon buys Texas Instruments this gets very interesting indeed!
Yeah, Amazon buying TI sounds kind of silly to me. Like a rookie mistake one would expect from a sales company that thinks it's a hardware company.
I don't think we'll be seeing Apple buy chipmakers or foundries anytime soon, unless Tim Cook turns out to too much of a rookie too (but I think he learned to avoid that trap from Steve.)
I understand why this has happened, and I don't think the fault lies at Apple's feet to any great degree, but nevertheless it doesn't seem like a good development for the company to have a hateful relationship with anyone. I hope Apple aren't going to take this down the road they did with Microsoft and IBM in the past, rivals are fine to have, but enemies just lead to destructive behaviour that distract from making good products.
Maybe I'm wrong and Apple can tap into this productively and make iPhones and iPads that blow Samsung even further out of the water. But if they cut off their nose to spite their face then we all lose.
I don't think Apple is spiteful, but when a competitor threatens their customers, goals, or innovations (think, to various extents, Google, Adobe, Microsoft, Samsung) they will not allow it. They still have productive relationships with all these companies, but Apple will not allow themselves to be choked by them. Samsung is in a unique situation because they really screwed their largest and most lucrative partner. Apple really has no way to punish them but to cut them off. Sammy's going to feel some pain.
Obviously, at one point in time, Apple had little ARM expertise. They then went out and acquired it - via acquisition, hiring, and internal development. All that matters is that they have sufficient expertise TODAY, not several years ago.
As one of the original partners in developing Arm, Apple has never had "little ARM expertise."
But Apple, being an innovator and fast mover, shed itself of ARM when it didn't need it, and quickly brought itself back up to date when it made sense. That's one of the most amazing things about Apple. They know and understand technology and they use it as a tool to get things done. That's why they'll never buy a foundry. They know they don't exist to make chips. Chips exist so Apple can make useful products. It's easier to finance a chip foundry partner for a span of time than to actually buy a chip foundry and make chips.
ROFL!! Well, pathetic, but nice try. You fanboys really sound desperate. ROFL!!
Of course, $150B includes all Samsung mobile, semi sales as well as oversea sales by its foreign subsidiaries - that's what "consolidated" means. That's precisely why I stated "Apple' share of Samsung Electronic's overall Sales is still less than 8%." Whether Apple buys microwaves from Samsung's home appliance division or not is immaterial.
try harder. Apple fanboys not too bright
Don't need to try harder, you're making a fool of yourself all on your own.
Anyone claiming that a division losing 20% of their sales isn't a disaster is kidding themselves.
This cannot come soon enough. Given what I've observed with Samsung, I believe there is a 30% or greater chance the Samsung fabrication side of the business has shared confidential Apple CPU design info with their mobile team
@ $10 billion/year, Apple business is the equivalent to 20 million smartphone sales ($10B / $500 per phone). It's a major hit to their overall business
And wait until Apple enters the TV market. TVs are 25% of Samsung's business. The hurt for Samsung is just getting going
The blinkerdness of Apple devotees is just astonishing.
Samsung have demonstrated an Exynos chip with A15 cores, and you think they want or need to copy from Apple's chip efforts?
Are you aware that the terms "love-hate" and "hate-hate" is a purely "food coloring" added by the press?
I read The Korean Times regularly, and this is typical. If the story is about Japan, Japan is always completely wrong and always very sinister. If the story can be seen as between something Korean and anything else, very dramatic language is used to paint an Earth shattering conflict. I find that entertaining, but I take it with a grain of salt.
Don't need to try harder, you're making a fool of yourself all on your own.
Anyone claiming that a division losing 20% of their sales isn't a disaster is kidding themselves.
Firstly, for Q1, Q2 of 2012, that's 92T KRWand and, of that, about 31T KRW came from Semi & DP or about 35%.
For the whole fiscal year 2011, Samsung's semi & DP generated 66T KRW (or $60B USD) or roughly 40% of Samsung's entire 2011 revenue. Apple spent $7-$8B USD on Samsung components, or about 12+% of Samsung semi & DP revenue, or about 5% of Samsung Electronics' entire 2011 revenue. Now if you add up Samsung batteries used in the new iPads (made by IM - IT & Mobile division) that the inflated figure 20% you cited would get much smaller (6%-7%)
For 2010, Apple spent $5.7B on Samsung parts, 9% of Samsung SEMI & DP revenue, or about 4% of Samsung's entire 2010 revenue.
So, 9%? 12%? meh! Not really.. Samsung Semi & DP Q1 2012 yoy went down by 13%, you don't see Samsung weeping, do you? Apple doesn't have a monopsony in component biz; there are other willing buyers waiting in line. Two years is long enough to find new less whiny customers. As I've said earlier, there will be a couple of disappointing quarters, but there is enough growing demand outside Apple that, unfortunately for you, Samsung doesn't have to shut their door. Besides Samsung's mobile division (IM) is still growing at 40%-50% and, certainly by next year, it will be the largest buyer of Samsung semi & dp components.
Firstly, for Q1, Q2 of 2012, that's 92T KRWand and, of that, about 31T KRW came from Semi & DP or about 35%.
For the whole fiscal year 2011, Samsung's semi & DP generated 66T KRW (or $60B USD) or roughly 40% of Samsung's entire 2011 revenue. Apple spent $7-$8B USD on Samsung components, or about 12+% of Samsung semi & DP revenue, or about 5% of Samsung Electronics' entire 2011 revenue. Now if you add up Samsung batteries used in the new iPads (made by IM - IT & Mobile division) that the inflated figure 20% you cited would get much smaller (6%-7%)
For 2010, Apple spent $5.7B on Samsung parts, 9% of Samsung SEMI & DP revenue, or about 4% of Samsung's entire 2010 revenue.
So, 9%? 12%? meh! Not really.. Samsung Semi & DP Q1 2012 yoy went down by 13%, you don't see Samsung weeping, do you? Apple doesn't have a monopsony in component biz; there are other willing buyers waiting in line. Two years is long enough to find new less whiny customers. As I've said earlier, there will be a couple of disappointing quarters, but there is enough growing demand outside Apple that, unfortunately for you, Samsung doesn't have to shut their door. Besides Samsung's mobile division (IM) is still growing at 40%-50% and, certainly by next year, it will be the largest buyer of Samsung semi & dp components.
First off, Q1 was 16T and Q2 was 11T which makes 27T, not 31T. Where you you pull that 31T figure out of? My figures are straight from Samsung's quarterly reports.
Nobody knows what Apple will spend in 2012, but their "contract" was apparently for $9.7 billion and expected to surpass that number. Unless Samsung turns things around Q3 and Q4 they won't be hitting that $60 billion they did last year. More like $50 billion, and unless my math is off, $9.7 billion is pretty close to 20% of $50 billion. If they hit $60 billion then Apple's share drops to 16%.
What you fail to mention is that Samsung's smartphone sales have been soaring the last 2 years, yet their semiconductor & display deliveries have actually been going down. So much for Samsung being able to make up the loss of semi sales to outside customers with increased sales to Samsung Mobile for their own Smartphones. And this has been going on before this news that Apple is starting to ween themselves from Samsung. Even HTC announced last week they were going to reduce orders from Samsung.
And all those billions are going into the pockets of Samsung competitors.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jahblade
Quote:
Originally Posted by IQatEdo
I'll bet that any Samsung division responsible for fabricating chips for Apple would rather side with their client than with their parent.
I agree.. There is a similar situation in the company I work for.
yes, but division presidents like their jobs, and especially in Eastern Business Culture, it's all about being a company man. You don't see too many Asian Corporate types resigning due to 'philosophical differences'
Quote:
Originally Posted by tooltalk
EricTheHalfBee:
go to Samsung Electronics' investor relations and look up 2011 annual report. Is that so hard to do?
Samsung Electronics and Consolidated Business 2011 income (sales) : 165,002B KRW or around $150B USD
hate to disappoint you - Apple may be a big consumer electronic giant now, but the world doesn't evolve around Apple.
You use an interesting choice of words here: "but the world doesn't evolve around Apple." Even your subconscious knows your arguments regarding Apple ring false!
In the first 6 months of 2012 Samsung Electronics sold about 92 trillion KRW and of that 27 trillion was semiconductors & displays. By my math that's only 29% of their total sales.
So Apple's sales of their semiconductor and display/components is more like 20% (or more) since I'm pretty sure the billions Apple spends dont go towards TV's and smartphones.
You going to come back and say 20% is an insignificant portion of their sales?
Thanks for playing, troll.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IQatEdo
I'll bet that any Samsung division responsible for fabricating chips for Apple would rather side with their client than with their parent.
Unfortunately, as we learned from the patent trial, it was this Samsung chip division that initiated the "copy the hell out of Apple" report submitted to the Samsung phone division. ethics seems to be totally missing when it comes to South Koreans.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricTheHalfBee
Thanks for proving my point. Did you miss the word "consolidated" in their name? If you had read further you'd realize that the semiconductor and component divisions only make up about 30-35% (depending on quarter) of that amount. The $150 billion INCLUDES their smartphone sales, TV's, laptops, digital cameras, home theatre, camcorders....you name it.
In the first 6 months of 2012 Samsung Electronics sold about 92 trillion KRW and of that 27 trillion was semiconductors & displays. By my math that's only 29% of their total sales.
So Apple's sales of their semiconductor and display/components is more like 20% (or more) since I'm pretty sure the billions Apple spends dont go towards TV's and smartphones.
You going to come back and say 20% is an insignificant portion of their sales?
Thanks for playing, troll.
ROFL!! Well, pathetic, but nice try. You fanboys really sound desperate. ROFL!!
Of course, $150B includes all Samsung mobile, semi sales as well as oversea sales by its foreign subsidiaries - that's what "consolidated" means. That's precisely why I stated "Apple' share of Samsung Electronic's overall Sales is still less than 8%." Whether Apple buys microwaves from Samsung's home appliance division or not is immaterial.
try harder. Apple fanboys not too bright
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricTheHalfBee
Another thing people seem to miss is that every billion Apple takes from Samsung is a billion they spend at one of Samsung's competitors. Money those competitors can use to improve their facilities and expand their production capabiltities. Or invest into R&D on newer technology.
Which means that Apple, in moving their business elsewhere, has twice the effect on Samsung's profits.
I really hoped that the recent patent trial loss would have given Samsung a wake-up nudge that could have benefited both companies. Alas, the lack of ethics at Samsung is completely lacking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips
If Amazon buys Texas Instruments this gets very interesting indeed!
Actually for Amazon to buy a TI plant is an indication that someone at Amazon has lost their way.
First off, TI wouldn't sell one of their most modern factories. Secondly, once a plant is completed it is already racing toward obsolescence. It's extremely expensive to own a semiconductor factory, plus keeping the talent is hard. Any whiff of bad news and the engineers are gone faster than fruit pickers when the immigration police show up. Amazon will live to regret this purchase which Apple is too smart to even consider.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 65C816
And the CPU guy used to be the VP of design at AMD for 16 years. What's wrong with poaching him? Who do you think designs stuff at Apple? It's brilliant people - so why shouldn't they hire brilliant people?
I believe I read that he was only at Samsung for a few months (definitely less than a year) before leaving to go to Apple. Perhaps he didn't like it at Sammy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips
If Amazon buys Texas Instruments this gets very interesting indeed!
Yeah, Amazon buying TI sounds kind of silly to me. Like a rookie mistake one would expect from a sales company that thinks it's a hardware company.
I don't think we'll be seeing Apple buy chipmakers or foundries anytime soon, unless Tim Cook turns out to too much of a rookie too (but I think he learned to avoid that trap from Steve.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley
I understand why this has happened, and I don't think the fault lies at Apple's feet to any great degree, but nevertheless it doesn't seem like a good development for the company to have a hateful relationship with anyone. I hope Apple aren't going to take this down the road they did with Microsoft and IBM in the past, rivals are fine to have, but enemies just lead to destructive behaviour that distract from making good products.
Maybe I'm wrong and Apple can tap into this productively and make iPhones and iPads that blow Samsung even further out of the water. But if they cut off their nose to spite their face then we all lose.
I don't think Apple is spiteful, but when a competitor threatens their customers, goals, or innovations (think, to various extents, Google, Adobe, Microsoft, Samsung) they will not allow it. They still have productive relationships with all these companies, but Apple will not allow themselves to be choked by them. Samsung is in a unique situation because they really screwed their largest and most lucrative partner. Apple really has no way to punish them but to cut them off. Sammy's going to feel some pain.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
Obviously, at one point in time, Apple had little ARM expertise. They then went out and acquired it - via acquisition, hiring, and internal development. All that matters is that they have sufficient expertise TODAY, not several years ago.
As one of the original partners in developing Arm, Apple has never had "little ARM expertise."
But Apple, being an innovator and fast mover, shed itself of ARM when it didn't need it, and quickly brought itself back up to date when it made sense. That's one of the most amazing things about Apple. They know and understand technology and they use it as a tool to get things done. That's why they'll never buy a foundry. They know they don't exist to make chips. Chips exist so Apple can make useful products. It's easier to finance a chip foundry partner for a span of time than to actually buy a chip foundry and make chips.
Why buy a dairy farm when it's the milk you want?
Anyone claiming that a division losing 20% of their sales isn't a disaster is kidding themselves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Oak
This cannot come soon enough. Given what I've observed with Samsung, I believe there is a 30% or greater chance the Samsung fabrication side of the business has shared confidential Apple CPU design info with their mobile team
@ $10 billion/year, Apple business is the equivalent to 20 million smartphone sales ($10B / $500 per phone). It's a major hit to their overall business
And wait until Apple enters the TV market. TVs are 25% of Samsung's business. The hurt for Samsung is just getting going
The blinkerdness of Apple devotees is just astonishing.
Samsung have demonstrated an Exynos chip with A15 cores, and you think they want or need to copy from Apple's chip efforts?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton
Are you aware that the terms "love-hate" and "hate-hate" is a purely "food coloring" added by the press?
I read The Korean Times regularly, and this is typical. If the story is about Japan, Japan is always completely wrong and always very sinister. If the story can be seen as between something Korean and anything else, very dramatic language is used to paint an Earth shattering conflict. I find that entertaining, but I take it with a grain of salt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cnocbui
The blinkerdness of Apple devotees is just astonishing.
Samsung have demonstrated an Exynos chip with A15 cores, and you think they want or need to copy from Apple's chip efforts?
LOL!
Samsung would never copy anything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricTheHalfBee
Don't need to try harder, you're making a fool of yourself all on your own.
Anyone claiming that a division losing 20% of their sales isn't a disaster is kidding themselves.
Firstly, for Q1, Q2 of 2012, that's 92T KRWand and, of that, about 31T KRW came from Semi & DP or about 35%.
For the whole fiscal year 2011, Samsung's semi & DP generated 66T KRW (or $60B USD) or roughly 40% of Samsung's entire 2011 revenue. Apple spent $7-$8B USD on Samsung components, or about 12+% of Samsung semi & DP revenue, or about 5% of Samsung Electronics' entire 2011 revenue. Now if you add up Samsung batteries used in the new iPads (made by IM - IT & Mobile division) that the inflated figure 20% you cited would get much smaller (6%-7%)
For 2010, Apple spent $5.7B on Samsung parts, 9% of Samsung SEMI & DP revenue, or about 4% of Samsung's entire 2010 revenue.
So, 9%? 12%? meh! Not really.. Samsung Semi & DP Q1 2012 yoy went down by 13%, you don't see Samsung weeping, do you? Apple doesn't have a monopsony in component biz; there are other willing buyers waiting in line. Two years is long enough to find new less whiny customers. As I've said earlier, there will be a couple of disappointing quarters, but there is enough growing demand outside Apple that, unfortunately for you, Samsung doesn't have to shut their door. Besides Samsung's mobile division (IM) is still growing at 40%-50% and, certainly by next year, it will be the largest buyer of Samsung semi & dp components.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mode 5
LOL!
Samsung would never copy anything.
LOL!! Of course, everything Apple ever patented is completely original! Ha! Ha! Ha!
Quote:
Originally Posted by tooltalk
LOL!! Of course, everything Apple ever patented is completely original! Ha! Ha! Ha!
Well done, tops cnocbui, you too have a wonderful sense of irony.
Do you guys write this stuff for a living, or is it just a hobby?
Originally Posted by Mode 5
Do you guys write this stuff for a living, or is it just a hobby?
A little of both happens here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tooltalk
Firstly, for Q1, Q2 of 2012, that's 92T KRWand and, of that, about 31T KRW came from Semi & DP or about 35%.
For the whole fiscal year 2011, Samsung's semi & DP generated 66T KRW (or $60B USD) or roughly 40% of Samsung's entire 2011 revenue. Apple spent $7-$8B USD on Samsung components, or about 12+% of Samsung semi & DP revenue, or about 5% of Samsung Electronics' entire 2011 revenue. Now if you add up Samsung batteries used in the new iPads (made by IM - IT & Mobile division) that the inflated figure 20% you cited would get much smaller (6%-7%)
For 2010, Apple spent $5.7B on Samsung parts, 9% of Samsung SEMI & DP revenue, or about 4% of Samsung's entire 2010 revenue.
So, 9%? 12%? meh! Not really.. Samsung Semi & DP Q1 2012 yoy went down by 13%, you don't see Samsung weeping, do you? Apple doesn't have a monopsony in component biz; there are other willing buyers waiting in line. Two years is long enough to find new less whiny customers. As I've said earlier, there will be a couple of disappointing quarters, but there is enough growing demand outside Apple that, unfortunately for you, Samsung doesn't have to shut their door. Besides Samsung's mobile division (IM) is still growing at 40%-50% and, certainly by next year, it will be the largest buyer of Samsung semi & dp components.
First off, Q1 was 16T and Q2 was 11T which makes 27T, not 31T. Where you you pull that 31T figure out of? My figures are straight from Samsung's quarterly reports.
Nobody knows what Apple will spend in 2012, but their "contract" was apparently for $9.7 billion and expected to surpass that number. Unless Samsung turns things around Q3 and Q4 they won't be hitting that $60 billion they did last year. More like $50 billion, and unless my math is off, $9.7 billion is pretty close to 20% of $50 billion. If they hit $60 billion then Apple's share drops to 16%.
What you fail to mention is that Samsung's smartphone sales have been soaring the last 2 years, yet their semiconductor & display deliveries have actually been going down. So much for Samsung being able to make up the loss of semi sales to outside customers with increased sales to Samsung Mobile for their own Smartphones. And this has been going on before this news that Apple is starting to ween themselves from Samsung. Even HTC announced last week they were going to reduce orders from Samsung.
And all those billions are going into the pockets of Samsung competitors.