The thing about the 12 year olds with iPhones is that it's a lot cheaper than it first appears. First off, a 12 year old with an iPhone probably also has a family. And that means that they will probably have an existing family plan that can be used. That brings down the cost of additional iPhones -- on AT&T, it would be $30/month to add an additional iPhone with 300MB data plan, for example.
The other thing is that most parents probably don't go out and buy their 12 year old an iPhone new. Instead, they can hand down that iPhone 4 that isn't being used anymore because mom and dad got new iPhones. That also saves some money over the iPod touch which would cost a minimum of $200 to buy new.
If that 12 year old is already carrying around a cell phone for some other reason, the delta between a free feature phone and a hand me down iPhone is now $20/month on AT&T. If you assume that the iPod touch is going to last for about 2 years, that means the iPhone is costing an additional $40 over 2 years. That is not anywhere near the $70/month that was being quoted above.
So how are all these 12 year olds affording $70 a month for an iPhone, anyway? The iPod touch still has a huge market, and always will.
Couldn't agree more. I see the iPad mini as a shared device for children or an eReader/compact iPad for an adult.
The iPod Touch is a device for individual kids and is an important product for parents who don't want their kids to have a phone. That would be me. I can certainly afford to buy my 12 and 10 year olds an iPhone, but I absolutely refuse to do so. A 12 year old doesn't need a phone. My kids have Touches and we control what apps are on the device and we shut off the internet access. Unfettered access to iDevices can poison a kid's mind.
Apple has a hugely successful ... pocket tablet ... It sells so well that other companies would kill for it, ...
I think you both need to cut down on the hyperbole, and someone needs to go out and find out the facts about the sales before they go assuming things. It would certainly have helped immensely if instead of just reprinting this rumour, the author of the article actually did some background work to find out what the sales actually are.
I would bet that neither of you actually know if your over-the-top statements about the robust state of iPod touch sales are actually accurate or not.
There will always be people who can't afford an iPhone. And why would it gain more functionality? That's why the iPod touch exists.
This is rather odd reasoning. Why wouldn't it gain more functionality? This has been the trend of all Apple products. Lower end products continue to gain more functionality often at the same or even lower price points. Or...another way to look at it is that higher end functionality drifts down to the lower end models over time. This trend could squish out iPod touch eventually.
I think Apple now has covered just about every price point from $199 to $829 with an iOS device, ranging in screen sizes from 3.5 inches to 9.7 inches. I don't think there are any more points in between for them to exploit.
What good would an 8gb version of the touch be? Here's 4 apps and 12 songs...have fun sweetie!
1,372 songs is 5.1GB on my iPhone- made down to 128kb as I only listen to music through headphones.
Also- there is this new thing called "iCloud" that doesn't require you to have all your songs. I'm not saying it's preferred, but 8GB is plenty in several cases. Like my daughter who would use it primarily for pandora, pictures, videos, and a couple apps. That's it. 8gb would have been plenty- particularly with iCloud and iTunes Match.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton
I think Apple now has covered just about every price point from $199 to $829 with an iOS device, ranging in screen sizes from 3.5 inches to 9.7 inches. I don't think there are any more points in between for them to exploit.
The over 2 year old 2010 iPod Touch is very antiquated by today's standards. It more than likely won't run iOS7 (if they go by their current trends). Anyone who purchases that now is crazy.... $199 is the biggest ripoff on the iOS line- it was $229 when it was released over 2 years ago.
What a load of crap. iPhones are not "free". They cost about $2,000 with their two year contract. The iPod Touch is the most popular selling iPod. Many people prefer the iPod Touch because there is no monthly fee. iPod Touches are not solely used by children, as you Apple Fanbois would like to believe. Many adults use them as well because they don't want to pay an expensive monthly fee for a phone, when they can find a cell phone for much less. So the iPod Touch provides a nice alternative.
The iPad Mini won't cannibalize the iPod Touch because they are not the same. The iPod Touch is far more portable and easy to take with you. The iPad and iPad mini, not so much.
The iPod Classic does not need any updates. It serves one purpose, to carry large libraries. That is why Apple still sells it.
I listen to it with either a crappy dock in my bedroom, through bluetooth in my den through a sound bar, or through some $20 skull candy headphones. No need for 256k- the hardware won't allow the difference to be discerned. And again- we're talking about a 12 year old... you think they care if its 128 or 256?
So how are all these 12 year olds affording $70 a month for an iPhone, anyway? The iPod touch still has a huge market, and always will.
35 a month (9.99 plus a $25 data plan on top of parents phone) is the typical cost... but yes, it's a huge uplift.
I thought there will always be an iPod Touch parallel to the current iPhone, just for that purpose... however, if you look at the Apple model, my guess is they would prefer that 12 year old have an iPad Mini (very useful in education/entertainment/productivity and somewhat portable), AND an iPod Nano (uber portable, entertainment only), hence the iPod Touch is likely going to evolve out.
thuse the product line for apple will be
iPod (shuffle, Nano)
iPhone (-2, -1, current)
iPad (Mini (-1), Mini, iPad (-1**), iPad)
Basically a product line for music and video from $50 to $900, and apps from $299 (now*) to $900.
(* The current iPad Mini is well placed to be replaced with a RD option that will on the scale of a 2X iPhone 4s, which will become the next model, and the current model will drop by $50-100 in price in a year. Then the product line and long term progression of technologies will be in place)
(** in the near future (6 months, the iPad 4 will become the iPad -1, and it will replace the iPad 2, if for nothing else to get the Lightning connector across all it's primary devices, and start the path to retire the 1024x768 format of the 2 and the mini for a new RD Mini form factor of 1920x1280.)
I believe the iPad mini is going to cannibalize the iPod touch market.
That's an interesting possibility. I won't believe it til I see it, but it is a distinct possibility. Worse case is they split the market evenly, exactly halving sales of both, but Apple should still move enough of both in volume to justify continuing production and design.
If people find the iPad Mini more useful, that's what they'll buy and the Touch market will shrink. It's up to consumers now to vote with their credit cards. Expanding the iPad market is a net win for Apple because it will help the iBooks / Newsstand ecosystems grow, without taking anything away from their iTunes music business (since iTunes content works on the iPad). But I agree: I don't see lots of people choosing to buy both an iPad Mini and iPod Touch.
I do expect the iPad Mini to cannibalize the iPad 2 market. At this point, there's just no reason to keep the iPad 2 (especially if Apple continues to withhold Siri), except for education markets.
The over 2 year old 2010 iPod Touch is very antiquated by today's standards. It more than likely won't run iOS7 (if they go by their current trends). Anyone who purchases that now is crazy.... $199 is the biggest ripoff on the iOS line- it was $229 when it was released over 2 years ago.
I completely disagree with your pessimistic assessment of the iPod Touch 4th Gen. Apple stopped selling the 2009 iPhone 3GS but still made iOS 6 available for it, and the 4th Touch is still faster and features the retina display. I think iOS 7 will be offered for the Touch next year, even if Apple stops producing them in 2013.
Eventually Apple will replace their 16/32/64GB models with 32/64/128GB. Probably next year. Without a SD slot their one big advantage they used to have in terms of storage has vanished as you can now get Android phones with up to 128GB of storage.
I too think the touch has a future simply for young people who don't want to pay upwards of $70 or more a month for an iPhone. And even though I have an iPhone I still use my shuffle for workouts, walks, and usually leave it in my car for auxiliary play to my stereo. No reason for Apple to abandon the iPod market as long as it gets them used to Apple products/ecosystem and those same people will be more likely to buy an iPhone, Mac, or iPad later on.
1,372 songs is 5.1GB on my iPhone- made down to 128kb as I only listen to music through headphones.
Also- there is this new thing called "iCloud" that doesn't require you to have all your songs. I'm not saying it's preferred, but 8GB is plenty in several cases. Like my daughter who would use it primarily for pandora, pictures, videos, and a couple apps. That's it. 8gb would have been plenty- particularly with iCloud and iTunes Match.
The over 2 year old 2010 iPod Touch is very antiquated by today's standards. It more than likely won't run iOS7 (if they go by their current trends). Anyone who purchases that now is crazy.... $199 is the biggest ripoff on the iOS line- it was $229 when it was released over 2 years ago.
1. iTunes Match is not free, thus adding to the cost of the Touch.
2. iCloud only works for music that was bought in the apple store. How many kids do you know that actually pay for their music instead of downloading it for free and taking it from friends
3. Your daughter could fill up 8gb with two movies and nothing else. Apps take up a lot more space now than they used to and photos can eat up space really quickly too. Not to mention the videos she would take with the device. 8 gb is not enough anymore which is why Apple isn't selling it.
What "investment" is required for the iPod Touch? All they have to do (and more or less all they've ever done) is put N-1 generation iPhone components into the N generation iPod Touch. How hard is that? And why would they ever stop doing that? It seems like a great way to make a little bit more money off of the iPhone investments that they've already made. A big chunk of the fixed costs in something like the A6 is in the development. The more units you can spread that fixed cost across the better, so why not always put A(n-1) in the iPod Touch?
The only sense I can make of this statement is that perhaps the physical design won't change for a long time. But I don't see that as a very big deal.
exactly right. the touch is here to stay. the only real "investment" is the ad budget for it.
but i was surprised by the big price jump for the new model - which is quite stunning hardware - from $229 to $299. a likely reason is that Apple really wants to push buyers toward the new $329 iPad mini instead.
but who are those buyers? i've never seen a good survey of iPod touch buyer demographics. do they also own smartphones? are they mainly gifts for kids? how do they use the touch? or what?
another good point made in the comments is that there are now 10's of millions of older iPhones still out there that have become de facto iPod touch's after their owners got a new iPhone (i've got two). which further diminishes its long term market.
i've long thought the one possible new target market for Apple is a larger 5+" model of the touch. this would be ideal for action games in particular, and we know there is a permanent market there. that would give Apple a tablet model at every screen size sweet-spot. but that would take real "investment."
Comments
The other thing is that most parents probably don't go out and buy their 12 year old an iPhone new. Instead, they can hand down that iPhone 4 that isn't being used anymore because mom and dad got new iPhones. That also saves some money over the iPod touch which would cost a minimum of $200 to buy new.
If that 12 year old is already carrying around a cell phone for some other reason, the delta between a free feature phone and a hand me down iPhone is now $20/month on AT&T. If you assume that the iPod touch is going to last for about 2 years, that means the iPhone is costing an additional $40 over 2 years. That is not anywhere near the $70/month that was being quoted above.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
So how are all these 12 year olds affording $70 a month for an iPhone, anyway? The iPod touch still has a huge market, and always will.
Couldn't agree more. I see the iPad mini as a shared device for children or an eReader/compact iPad for an adult.
The iPod Touch is a device for individual kids and is an important product for parents who don't want their kids to have a phone. That would be me. I can certainly afford to buy my 12 and 10 year olds an iPhone, but I absolutely refuse to do so. A 12 year old doesn't need a phone. My kids have Touches and we control what apps are on the device and we shut off the internet access. Unfettered access to iDevices can poison a kid's mind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
... The iPod touch still has a huge market, ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by nagromme
Apple has a hugely successful ... pocket tablet ... It sells so well that other companies would kill for it, ...
I think you both need to cut down on the hyperbole, and someone needs to go out and find out the facts about the sales before they go assuming things. It would certainly have helped immensely if instead of just reprinting this rumour, the author of the article actually did some background work to find out what the sales actually are.
I would bet that neither of you actually know if your over-the-top statements about the robust state of iPod touch sales are actually accurate or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
There will always be people who can't afford an iPhone. And why would it gain more functionality? That's why the iPod touch exists.
This is rather odd reasoning. Why wouldn't it gain more functionality? This has been the trend of all Apple products. Lower end products continue to gain more functionality often at the same or even lower price points. Or...another way to look at it is that higher end functionality drifts down to the lower end models over time. This trend could squish out iPod touch eventually.
I think Apple now has covered just about every price point from $199 to $829 with an iOS device, ranging in screen sizes from 3.5 inches to 9.7 inches. I don't think there are any more points in between for them to exploit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by j1h15233
What good would an 8gb version of the touch be? Here's 4 apps and 12 songs...have fun sweetie!
1,372 songs is 5.1GB on my iPhone- made down to 128kb as I only listen to music through headphones.
Also- there is this new thing called "iCloud" that doesn't require you to have all your songs. I'm not saying it's preferred, but 8GB is plenty in several cases. Like my daughter who would use it primarily for pandora, pictures, videos, and a couple apps. That's it. 8gb would have been plenty- particularly with iCloud and iTunes Match.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton
I think Apple now has covered just about every price point from $199 to $829 with an iOS device, ranging in screen sizes from 3.5 inches to 9.7 inches. I don't think there are any more points in between for them to exploit.
The over 2 year old 2010 iPod Touch is very antiquated by today's standards. It more than likely won't run iOS7 (if they go by their current trends). Anyone who purchases that now is crazy.... $199 is the biggest ripoff on the iOS line- it was $229 when it was released over 2 years ago.
The iPad Mini won't cannibalize the iPod Touch because they are not the same. The iPod Touch is far more portable and easy to take with you. The iPad and iPad mini, not so much.
The iPod Classic does not need any updates. It serves one purpose, to carry large libraries. That is why Apple still sells it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andysol
1,372 songs is 5.1GB on my iPhone- made down to 128kb as I only listen to music through headphones.
128kbps for music?! Yuck!
Quote:
Originally Posted by chadmatic
128kbps for music?! Yuck!
I listen to it with either a crappy dock in my bedroom, through bluetooth in my den through a sound bar, or through some $20 skull candy headphones. No need for 256k- the hardware won't allow the difference to be discerned. And again- we're talking about a 12 year old... you think they care if its 128 or 256?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
So how are all these 12 year olds affording $70 a month for an iPhone, anyway? The iPod touch still has a huge market, and always will.
35 a month (9.99 plus a $25 data plan on top of parents phone) is the typical cost... but yes, it's a huge uplift.
I thought there will always be an iPod Touch parallel to the current iPhone, just for that purpose... however, if you look at the Apple model, my guess is they would prefer that 12 year old have an iPad Mini (very useful in education/entertainment/productivity and somewhat portable), AND an iPod Nano (uber portable, entertainment only), hence the iPod Touch is likely going to evolve out.
thuse the product line for apple will be
iPod (shuffle, Nano)
iPhone (-2, -1, current)
iPad (Mini (-1), Mini, iPad (-1**), iPad)
Basically a product line for music and video from $50 to $900, and apps from $299 (now*) to $900.
(* The current iPad Mini is well placed to be replaced with a RD option that will on the scale of a 2X iPhone 4s, which will become the next model, and the current model will drop by $50-100 in price in a year. Then the product line and long term progression of technologies will be in place)
(** in the near future (6 months, the iPad 4 will become the iPad -1, and it will replace the iPad 2, if for nothing else to get the Lightning connector across all it's primary devices, and start the path to retire the 1024x768 format of the 2 and the mini for a new RD Mini form factor of 1920x1280.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
So how are all these 12 year olds affording $70 a month for an iPhone, anyway? The iPod touch still has a huge market, and always will.
these 12 year olds will get iPad minis instead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chadmatic
I believe the iPad mini is going to cannibalize the iPod touch market.
That's an interesting possibility. I won't believe it til I see it, but it is a distinct possibility. Worse case is they split the market evenly, exactly halving sales of both, but Apple should still move enough of both in volume to justify continuing production and design.
If people find the iPad Mini more useful, that's what they'll buy and the Touch market will shrink. It's up to consumers now to vote with their credit cards. Expanding the iPad market is a net win for Apple because it will help the iBooks / Newsstand ecosystems grow, without taking anything away from their iTunes music business (since iTunes content works on the iPad). But I agree: I don't see lots of people choosing to buy both an iPad Mini and iPod Touch.
I do expect the iPad Mini to cannibalize the iPad 2 market. At this point, there's just no reason to keep the iPad 2 (especially if Apple continues to withhold Siri), except for education markets.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andysol
The over 2 year old 2010 iPod Touch is very antiquated by today's standards. It more than likely won't run iOS7 (if they go by their current trends). Anyone who purchases that now is crazy.... $199 is the biggest ripoff on the iOS line- it was $229 when it was released over 2 years ago.
I completely disagree with your pessimistic assessment of the iPod Touch 4th Gen. Apple stopped selling the 2009 iPhone 3GS but still made iOS 6 available for it, and the 4th Touch is still faster and features the retina display. I think iOS 7 will be offered for the Touch next year, even if Apple stops producing them in 2013.
I too think the touch has a future simply for young people who don't want to pay upwards of $70 or more a month for an iPhone. And even though I have an iPhone I still use my shuffle for workouts, walks, and usually leave it in my car for auxiliary play to my stereo. No reason for Apple to abandon the iPod market as long as it gets them used to Apple products/ecosystem and those same people will be more likely to buy an iPhone, Mac, or iPad later on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmileyDude
The thing about the 12 year olds with iPhones is that it's a lot cheaper than it first appears.
The iPhone also comes with a free, integrated tracking device.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andysol
1,372 songs is 5.1GB on my iPhone- made down to 128kb as I only listen to music through headphones.
Also- there is this new thing called "iCloud" that doesn't require you to have all your songs. I'm not saying it's preferred, but 8GB is plenty in several cases. Like my daughter who would use it primarily for pandora, pictures, videos, and a couple apps. That's it. 8gb would have been plenty- particularly with iCloud and iTunes Match.
The over 2 year old 2010 iPod Touch is very antiquated by today's standards. It more than likely won't run iOS7 (if they go by their current trends). Anyone who purchases that now is crazy.... $199 is the biggest ripoff on the iOS line- it was $229 when it was released over 2 years ago.
1. iTunes Match is not free, thus adding to the cost of the Touch.
2. iCloud only works for music that was bought in the apple store. How many kids do you know that actually pay for their music instead of downloading it for free and taking it from friends
3. Your daughter could fill up 8gb with two movies and nothing else. Apps take up a lot more space now than they used to and photos can eat up space really quickly too. Not to mention the videos she would take with the device. 8 gb is not enough anymore which is why Apple isn't selling it.
This year: "iPod touch: $299."
2014: "iPod touch: $199."
2016: "iPod touch classic: $199."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastdoor
What does that really even mean?
What "investment" is required for the iPod Touch? All they have to do (and more or less all they've ever done) is put N-1 generation iPhone components into the N generation iPod Touch. How hard is that? And why would they ever stop doing that? It seems like a great way to make a little bit more money off of the iPhone investments that they've already made. A big chunk of the fixed costs in something like the A6 is in the development. The more units you can spread that fixed cost across the better, so why not always put A(n-1) in the iPod Touch?
The only sense I can make of this statement is that perhaps the physical design won't change for a long time. But I don't see that as a very big deal.
exactly right. the touch is here to stay. the only real "investment" is the ad budget for it.
but i was surprised by the big price jump for the new model - which is quite stunning hardware - from $229 to $299. a likely reason is that Apple really wants to push buyers toward the new $329 iPad mini instead.
but who are those buyers? i've never seen a good survey of iPod touch buyer demographics. do they also own smartphones? are they mainly gifts for kids? how do they use the touch? or what?
another good point made in the comments is that there are now 10's of millions of older iPhones still out there that have become de facto iPod touch's after their owners got a new iPhone (i've got two). which further diminishes its long term market.
i've long thought the one possible new target market for Apple is a larger 5+" model of the touch. this would be ideal for action games in particular, and we know there is a permanent market there. that would give Apple a tablet model at every screen size sweet-spot. but that would take real "investment."
Originally Posted by TheOtherGeoff
35 a month (9.99 plus a $25 data plan on top of parents phone) is the typical cost... but yes, it's a huge uplift.
I'm seeing $40 for every phone on top of $60.
Originally Posted by Shameer Mulji
these 12 year olds will get iPad minis instead.
Different device, different uses, different market.