ITC judge: Samsung should post massive bond ahead of US sales ban

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  • Reply 21 of 137

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post



    Sorry to burst your bubble, but none of this stops Android's momentum and inevitable eclipsing of Apple on both smartphones (already) and tablets (within 2 years max).


     


    There's absolutely no indication that Android will be eclipsing anything in tablets. It's even way behind the Kindle Fire, which is way behind the iPad. And the dynamic in the tablet market is completely different than the smartphone market, where we have carriers pushing hardware that they make more money on and can more completely control and observe the user experience, so you can't even make a valid argument by analogy.


     


    Androids ascendance in the smartphone market is, as well, quite soft. There's no buy in to any ecosystem, most people don't actively choose Android it's sold to them, and for large numbers of them their next smartphone is an iPhone. The only area where Android has any solid advantage is in cheap "smart" feature phones, which don't benefit Google at all because these people aren't really using Google services (or, the Internet at all) and they aren't worth advertising to if they were.

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  • Reply 22 of 137
    sr2012sr2012 Posts: 896member
    anonymouse wrote: »
    There's absolutely no indication that Android will be eclipsing anything in tablets. It's even way behind the Kindle Fire, which is way behind the iPad. And the dynamic in the tablet market is completely different than the smartphone market, where we have carriers pushing hardware that they make more money on and can more completely control and observe the user experience, so you can't even make a valid argument by analogy.

    Androids ascendance in the smartphone market is, as well, quite soft. There's no buy in to any ecosystem, most people don't actively choose Android it's sold to them, and for large numbers of them their next smartphone is an iPhone. The only area where Android has any solid advantage is in cheap "smart" feature phones, which don't benefit Google at all because these people aren't really using Google services (or, the Internet at all) and they aren't worth advertising to if they were.

    When I say Android tablets I am including Kindle Fire because the stats show including Kindle etc. we're looking at 50-50 share by end of 2013.

    Fair enough if the tablet market indeed is different than smartphones so it will be interesting to see what happens in 2013. I remain of the opinion in any case, that we're at the start of a smartphone-like competitive environment. Kindle on one side, Nexus 7, 10, etc. on the other, and iPad in the third corner. Android tablets still need everybody to go to at least Android 4.2 for things to be worthwhile (that's why Asus and Samsung haven't done well, their offerings on Ice Cream Sandwich are still very laggy). Additionally, more developers need to make good tablet apps and transition from just smartphone apps. So I guess I'm predicting that there's an opportunity there that people are going to want to take advantage of, and as such Kindle and Android will form a good 50% of tablets by the end of 2013 vs iPad.

    According to Wikipedia, "As of October 2012, about 7 million units have been sold according to estimates by Forrester Research, making the Kindle Fire the second-best-selling tablet after the iPad."

    Additionally, Nexus 7 alone is said to be doing 1 million units per month. Not fantastic compared to iPad, but here we have a smartphone-esque situation where basically iPad will go up against every tom, dick and harry.

    Not saying this is a "war" or Apple is "doomed", just laying out the situation as I see it.

    As for the smartphone market, I have to say you're way off base. It may have started as cheap smart feature phones but with Samsung S2, S3, HTC One X, Droid, Nexus 4, we're seeing Android go toe-to-toe with iPhone. For many people, their next smartphone is iPhone or Android. For the older generation, probably iPhone. The younger generation, probably Android. Globally, yes the Android numbers are inflated somewhat because of cheaper Android phones. But in Western countries and developing countries increasingly, the "flagship" Android phones are coming into force. As for ecosystem, let me just say that after a few months tinkering with Android and now finally using a HTC One X as my primary phone, I wouldn't go back to the Apple ecosystem, nor need to at this stage. The buy-in to Android with the higher-end Android phones is quite big. Because now I wouldn't go back to iPhone because I'd lose the screen size and screen quality, flexibility, customisation, and high level of sophistication. Yes, there's some bugs and lag to deal with but with Android 4.1 and particularly 4.2, Google and manufacturers have made some very significant strides.

    Of course, this is all a very recent turnaround for Android only with Android 4.0 and particularly 4.1 and soon 4.2. It is very, very recent but it is happening. Google and manufacturers have looked closely at lag, battery life, overall experience, ability to get updates, etc. and know this is what will make or break them. Not so much Google, but you get my drift.
    matrix07 wrote: »
    Why does it even matter when a majority of users (who just want cheap gadgets) are using the OS they really don't care about. Is that something to boast?

    This is a misconception. Top-notch Android phones are not cheap gadgets any more. Mid-range Android phones can be just cheap, but some can be excellent value, eg. HTC One X (One X Plus is more expensive, not that the One X itself is cheap by any stretch of the imagination).

    As for "OS they don't care about"? It's the same now for both iOS and Android. Some care a lot, some don't care as long as it is an iPhone (or Android).
    philboogie wrote: »
    Cuz ain't shit goin on in Android world yo

    I hang out on AppleInsider for old times' sake and to keep abreast of various developments in the tech world (I don't read Giz, Engadget, TechCrunch, etc) ... But, guess what, I do spend more and more time on Android Central Forums.

    You wouldn't ~BELIEVE~ the shit goin' on in Android world now. Android is totally blowing up right now (let me cut you off before you reply with a snarky rejoinder to "blowing up").

    But for people living in the ~Real World~ ... 2013 will see some very interesting Android developments. iPhone and iPad won't go anywhere, they'll still be world class. But the lustre may come off a little as it is now. That's all I'm saying.

    Just six months ago I was Android-bashing heavily on these here forums. Then the MBP 15" Retina came out. I tried it, returned it. The iPad 3 came out before that, I got it, and it's nice, but I was taken aback by it getting bigger and heavier than the iPad 2. Recently I got a MacBook Air 13", very very nice, but one niggle is the colour, deep reds do not exist. iPhone 5... got it, nice, but just doesn't have that je ne se quois (spelling?). Recently took some time to tinker with the Nexus 7 and Xperia S, suddenly with Android 4 it is quite viable. Got a HTC One X for myself for Christmas, Android 4.1... Very good experience if you put some effort into understanding and optimising your phone (Samsung S3 is solid right out of the box that's probably why it is No. 1 in Android smartphones).
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  • Reply 23 of 137

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post





    BS and trash.


    you are wrong on every single paragraph. your ignorance and lack of ability to learn/understand are showing. please, don't pollute AI's threads.


     


    you are stupid/retard (i'm just stating facts, i have every right to call you stupid and i already said why on other threads. people (me especially) already told you why you are wrong, with facts.. but you do not want to learn. you are killing forum rules. you are a troll.).

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  • Reply 24 of 137
    sr2012sr2012 Posts: 896member
    you are wrong on every single paragraph. your ignorance and lack of ability to learn/understand are showing. please, don't pollute AI's threads.

    you are stupid/retard (i'm just stating facts, i have every right to call you stupid and i already said why on other threads. people (me especially) already told you why you are wrong, with facts.. but you do not want to learn. you are killing forum rules. you are a troll.).

    Sorry dude, reporting you. Not sure why you get so upset with me.

    I have presented other facts as well to support my case.

    And it's not like I regularly, like every day or multiple times a day, go through every single thread here and just seek to pick a fight. I comment where I like, and there is nothing against the rules which I have done.

    The point of a forum is discussion, if you like a more "pure" Apple club there are a variety of those eg. on Meetup.com and so on.

    I am exerting my right to free speech and civilised discussion.

    You are just calling me stupid, retarded and "wrong on every single paragraph", which you have not attempted to say ~why~ it is wrong.

    You can see that I am not here just to annoy people, I want to present my point of view and share what I have found, and in some ways highlight some misconceptions people might have.

    I also discuss non-Android related issues throughout the forums.

    Sure many of us here have some fun here from time to time "arguing" about things but I think you're getting a little too upset.

    Notice as well that I mentioned that Samsung deserves what they are getting in many cases. I've never said that Android isn't a ripoff of iOS, it clearly is, to me. However they have innovated and added quite a number of unique things since Android 3 and non-Samsung manufacturers have at least made some attempt not to totally copy everything Apple does. This is why I preferred not to get anything Samsung this past year.
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  • Reply 25 of 137


    Quote:

    Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post





    What's next? Apple suing NYC for the use of their name¿


     



     


    Can you stick to the topic instead of going off on irrelevant tangents? Your modus operandi of distracting with irrelevant comments is a tactic used by individuals who have no relevant counter argument, so they attempt to confuse with irrelevant information. The question is clearly if Apple has patents, are these patents valid, and did Samsung infringe upon these valid patents owned by Apple? If you can argue with facts based upon knowledge then please do, otherwise you add nothing to the discussion. Even an opinion that is relevant to the conversation would be better.

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  • Reply 26 of 137
    sr2012sr2012 Posts: 896member
    fahlman wrote: »
    Can you stick to the topic instead of going off on irrelevant tangents? Your modus operandi of distracting with irrelevant comments is a tactic used by individuals who have no relevant counter argument, so they attempt to confuse with irrelevant information. The question is clearly if Apple has patents, are these patents valid, and did Samsung infringe upon these valid patents owned by Apple? If you can argue with facts based upon knowledge then please do, otherwise you add nothing to the discussion. Even an opinion that is relevant to the conversation would be better.

    He's just having fun, why is everyone so serious, it's not like we're in a Stanford lecture hall or something.
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  • Reply 27 of 137


    Same, I wish it would just end already, no headway is being made in either company anyway.

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  • Reply 28 of 137
    matrix07matrix07 Posts: 1,993member
    sr2012 wrote: »
    This is a misconception. Top-notch Android phones are not cheap gadgets any more. Mid-range Android phones can be just cheap, but some can be excellent value, eg. HTC One X (One X Plus is more expensive, not that the One X itself is cheap by any stretch of the imagination).
    As for "OS they don't care about"? It's the same now for both iOS and Android. Some care a lot, some don't care as long as it is an iPhone (or Android)..

    For a majority of people here (South-east Asia), it goes like this: the ones who bought iPhone went out of their ways to buy ones. The ones who bought Android just wanna get cheap phones that can do everything iPhone can. Yes, there were some nerds who specifically want Android but they are a very minority. This might be shocking to you and hurts your feeling but it's a reality.
    Oh, by the way, even "premium" Android phones like Galaxy SIII is still cheaper than latest iPhone out of contract. Like $100 cheaper without promotion. Couple this with larger screen no wonder who want more bang for their bucks will choose Android instead. Again, majority of them simply don't care about OS unlike the one who bought the iPhone.
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  • Reply 29 of 137


    Originally Posted by archieny View Post

    …no headway is being made in either company anyway.


     


    You're sure about that?

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  • Reply 30 of 137
    jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member
    philboogie wrote: »
    A judge outlining workarounds. Around the law? Wow. Just wow.

    Why shouldn't the judge provide workarounds? The judge isn't telling them how to break the law. Rather, the judge is explaining exactly how their product infringes Apple's IP and how to avoid doing so. Seems perfectly appropriate. The law in cases like these is very complicated and guidance from the judge is probably helpful for both parties in terms of drawing the line as to what's acceptable and what isn't.
    archieny wrote: »
    Same, I wish it would just end already, no headway is being made in either company anyway.

    ROTFLMAO

    Apple has gotten a $1 B judgment against Samsung (still under appeal, but it's certainly going Apple's way). It looks like Samsung may lose the right to sell all infringing devices in the US - and put up an immense bond (many billions of dollars) in the meantime.

    No, no one is making any headway.


    One thing that's really funny about this whole mess - is that Samsung either doesn't care about stealing IP or doesn't know better. Look at their latest commercial. A guy and girl are talking about the most recent financial results. The girl is busy watching movies and texting while the guy did all the work. She asks him for a copy of the analysis - and then claims it as her own work.

    When combined with all the court cases that have gone against them, it appears as if Samsung is suggesting that IP theft is perfectly OK.
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  • Reply 31 of 137
    . Also, the Commission may not sign off on the ALJ's recommendations as Apple's case was recently weakened when the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office invalidated one of the patents-in-suit in a non-final <a href="http://appleinsider.com/articles/12/12/19/apple-pinch-to-zoom-patent-invalidated-by-uspto">office action</a> earlier this month.

    No patent was invalidated. The action was a preliminary finding that the patent might possibly be invalid and therefore would be reviewed to determine. Unlike AI, the ITC and ALJ understand this and it won't be a weakening of anything until the final action. This review is possibly why Pender is calling for the bond. The items under it a likely the very ones that were found guilty under said patent. Posting the bond could be a way to allow them to stay on sale because the damages are being held 'in escrow' if you will for a quick payout to the appropriate side. A number of courts in the EU demand this kind of thing when a company calls for a prelim ban in an allegedly infringing item.
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  • Reply 32 of 137
    I'm lost... I thought some of the inflecting Patents got declared null and void? Where does that stand in relation to this and the California Apple v Samsung case?

    Nope. No patents have been voided. Just out in review. So it does nothing at this point other than give Samsung cause to file a motion to essentially freeze all deadlines to pay etc until the final decision. No promise the judge will grant but we will see.
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  • Reply 33 of 137
    philboogie wrote: »
    If a jury member has any knowledge on a case for which they are doing their jury task they are expelled, but it's ok for a judge to make recommendations to the Commission on which way to take a ruling? That doesn't seem right. Then again, the American legal system doesn't seem right. To me, without any knowledge on law, so things might be very logical if you studied law.

    He's making a recommendation, not casting a vote. His position is more like the lawyer that tells the jury they should say yes to the death penalty if they think I killed you in cold blood.
    A judge outlining workarounds. Around the law? Wow. Just wow.

    No one said that. He could be talking about design work arounds based on what, for example, Microsoft has done. Basically pointing out the other methods so arguments that the elements a obvious and the patent should be void based in that etc are incorrect. Such as the whole 'pinch to zoom' is not the only way to do such a thing. You could have something like do a two finger tap then slide to the left or right. Pull to refresh you could put a button in the corner. And so on
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  • Reply 34 of 137

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post





    When I say Android tablets I am including Kindle Fire because the stats show including Kindle etc. we're looking at 50-50 share by end of 2013. ...


    ... This is a misconception. Top-notch Android phones are not cheap gadgets any more. ...


     


    Well, I don't see any stats showing that, but the Kindle Fire is not Android, nor are any of the Asian Android forks. It's not about ancestry, it's about ecosystems, and none of these share the Google ecosystem.


     


    "Top-notch Android phones," may not be "cheap gadgets" any longer (although, most of them are cheaply built in comparison to the iPhone, even if they are relatively expensive), but the majority of Android phones aren't "top-notch". The majority of android phones are, in fact, cheap gadgets, and the majority of Android users, based on usage stats from a variety of sources, are using them as cheap feature phones, not as smart phones. There is no use of Google's ecosystem, certainly no investment in paid apps (and this latter point is try even for the "top-notch" phones), and no commitment to the ecosystem. That's why Google's position is so soft. No one has any investment in it, it's easy to abandon, and it's often abandoned.

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  • Reply 35 of 137
    charlituna wrote: »
    He's making a recommendation, not casting a vote. His position is more like the lawyer that tells the jury they should say yes to the death penalty if they think I killed you in cold blood.

    Ah, ok, thanks for the explanation.
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  • Reply 36 of 137

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by charlituna View Post




    Quote:

    Originally Posted by PhilBoogie View Post



    If a jury member has any knowledge on a case for which they are doing their jury task they are expelled, but it's ok for a judge to make recommendations to the Commission on which way to take a ruling? That doesn't seem right. Then again, the American legal system doesn't seem right. To me, without any knowledge on law, so things might be very logical if you studied law.




    He's making a recommendation, not casting a vote. His position is more like the lawyer that tells the jury they should say yes to the death penalty if they think I killed you in cold blood.


    Quote:

    A judge outlining workarounds. Around the law? Wow. Just wow.




    No one said that. He could be talking about design work arounds based on what, for example, Microsoft has done. Basically pointing out the other methods so arguments that the elements a obvious and the patent should be void based in that etc are incorrect. Such as the whole 'pinch to zoom' is not the only way to do such a thing. You could have something like do a two finger tap then slide to the left or right. Pull to refresh you could put a button in the corner. And so on


    I can't believe so many people are responding to that OPs comments. They are so stupid I have to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he is just a troll trying to yank a chain. I mean; nobody could be as stupid as his comments suggest.

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  • Reply 37 of 137

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sr2012 View Post





    When I say Android tablets I am including Kindle Fire because the stats show including Kindle etc. we're looking at 50-50 share by end of 2013.

    Fair enough if the tablet market indeed is different than smartphones so it will be interesting to see what happens in 2013. I remain of the opinion in any case, that we're at the start of a smartphone-like competitive environment. Kindle on one side, Nexus 7, 10, etc. on the other, and iPad in the third corner. Android tablets still need everybody to go to at least Android 4.2 for things to be worthwhile (that's why Asus and Samsung haven't done well, their offerings on Ice Cream Sandwich are still very laggy). Additionally, more developers need to make good tablet apps and transition from just smartphone apps. So I guess I'm predicting that there's an opportunity there that people are going to want to take advantage of, and as such Kindle and Android will form a good 50% of tablets by the end of 2013 vs iPad.

    According to Wikipedia, "As of October 2012, about 7 million units have been sold according to estimates by Forrester Research, making the Kindle Fire the second-best-selling tablet after the iPad."

    Additionally, Nexus 7 alone is said to be doing 1 million units per month. Not fantastic compared to iPad, but here we have a smartphone-esque situation where basically iPad will go up against every tom, dick and harry.

    Not saying this is a "war" or Apple is "doomed", just laying out the situation as I see it.

    As for the smartphone market, I have to say you're way off base. It may have started as cheap smart feature phones but with Samsung S2, S3, HTC One X, Droid, Nexus 4, we're seeing Android go toe-to-toe with iPhone. For many people, their next smartphone is iPhone or Android. For the older generation, probably iPhone. The younger generation, probably Android. Globally, yes the Android numbers are inflated somewhat because of cheaper Android phones. But in Western countries and developing countries increasingly, the "flagship" Android phones are coming into force. As for ecosystem, let me just say that after a few months tinkering with Android and now finally using a HTC One X as my primary phone, I wouldn't go back to the Apple ecosystem, nor need to at this stage. The buy-in to Android with the higher-end Android phones is quite big. Because now I wouldn't go back to iPhone because I'd lose the screen size and screen quality, flexibility, customisation, and high level of sophistication. Yes, there's some bugs and lag to deal with but with Android 4.1 and particularly 4.2, Google and manufacturers have made some very significant strides.

    Of course, this is all a very recent turnaround for Android only with Android 4.0 and particularly 4.1 and soon 4.2. It is very, very recent but it is happening. Google and manufacturers have looked closely at lag, battery life, overall experience, ability to get updates, etc. and know this is what will make or break them. Not so much Google, but you get my drift.

    This is a misconception. Top-notch Android phones are not cheap gadgets any more. Mid-range Android phones can be just cheap, but some can be excellent value, eg. HTC One X (One X Plus is more expensive, not that the One X itself is cheap by any stretch of the imagination).

    As for "OS they don't care about"? It's the same now for both iOS and Android. Some care a lot, some don't care as long as it is an iPhone (or Android).

    I hang out on AppleInsider for old times' sake and to keep abreast of various developments in the tech world (I don't read Giz, Engadget, TechCrunch, etc) ... But, guess what, I do spend more and more time on Android Central Forums.

    You wouldn't ~BELIEVE~ the shit goin' on in Android world now. Android is totally blowing up right now (let me cut you off before you reply with a snarky rejoinder to "blowing up").

    But for people living in the ~Real World~ ... 2013 will see some very interesting Android developments. iPhone and iPad won't go anywhere, they'll still be world class. But the lustre may come off a little as it is now. That's all I'm saying.

    Just six months ago I was Android-bashing heavily on these here forums. Then the MBP 15" Retina came out. I tried it, returned it. The iPad 3 came out before that, I got it, and it's nice, but I was taken aback by it getting bigger and heavier than the iPad 2. Recently I got a MacBook Air 13", very very nice, but one niggle is the colour, deep reds do not exist. iPhone 5... got it, nice, but just doesn't have that je ne se quois (spelling?). Recently took some time to tinker with the Nexus 7 and Xperia S, suddenly with Android 4 it is quite viable. Got a HTC One X for myself for Christmas, Android 4.1... Very good experience if you put some effort into understanding and optimising your phone (Samsung S3 is solid right out of the box that's probably why it is No. 1 in Android smartphones).




    Your 5 minutes in the spotlight are up MOVE ON!!!

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  • Reply 38 of 137
    rogifanrogifan Posts: 10,669member
    I wonder what Google would do if Samsung pulled an Amazon and went their own way. We we're talking smartphones there's really only two companies that matter - Apple and Samsung. And I don't think Samsung really gives a shit about Google. All they care about is marketing the crap out of their stuff and taking down Apple.
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  • Reply 39 of 137
    jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member
    rogifan wrote: »
    And I don't think Samsung really gives a shit about Google. All they care about is marketing the crap out of their stuff and taking down Apple.

    And finding something new to copy from Apple.
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  • Reply 40 of 137
    jragosta wrote: »
    Why shouldn't the judge provide workarounds? The judge isn't telling them how to break the law. Rather, the judge is explaining exactly how their product infringes Apple's IP and how to avoid doing so. Seems perfectly appropriate. The law in cases like these is very complicated and guidance from the judge is probably helpful for both parties in terms of drawing the line as to what's acceptable and what isn't.

    Thanks for the feedback. I just knew it couldn't be what I took it for at first.

    That's the good thing at this site: people are kind enough to broaden our minds by showing us there is more to it than what we think.

    --
    Look at their latest commercial.

    Pathetic, isn't it?

    [VIDEO]
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