but they don't typically get used in the Mac Pro as the processors are just single socket. They might be ok in the entry model but dual would be the E5. Usually with the entry model, they use older CPUs but I doubt they'd do that this time. They shouldn't really be using the previous generation starting at $2500 anyway.
Ever since quad core Xeons have existed they've had single socket and dual socket mac pros with several current generation processor choices.
but they don't typically get used in the Mac Pro as the processors are just single socket. They might be ok in the entry model but dual would be the E5. Usually with the entry model, they use older CPUs but I doubt they'd do that this time. They shouldn't really be using the previous generation starting at $2500 anyway.
Man, so they're just ignoring Sandy Bridge and Ivy Bridge?
OH. Hey! These! Single socket, but still a Xeon! Something tells me this might be what they use in the Mac Pro redesign, if it's happening.
Man, so they're just ignoring Sandy Bridge and Ivy Bridge?
OH. Hey! These! Single socket, but still a Xeon! Something tells me this might be what they use in the Mac Pro redesign, if it's happening.
They are the equivalent of what goes into the imac. They have 4 more pci lanes and support ECC ram. but they lack integrated graphics. Everyone on here tends to view thunderbolt as a high priority, as the mac pro is the only machine without it. If that is the case you only really gain ECC ram using these. Thunderbolt would probably be easier to implement on the i7 versions. The E3s are equivalent in performance to an imac of the same generation. Some have hyperthreading disabled just like desktop i5s.
but they don't typically get used in the Mac Pro as the processors are just single socket. They might be ok in the entry model but dual would be the E5. Usually with the entry model, they use older CPUs but I doubt they'd do that this time. They shouldn't really be using the previous generation starting at $2500 anyway.
Once again that makes no sense. Those use a totally different socket, so you wouldn't be able to share parts with anything outside that entry model. They also couldn't use the imac logic board even though the sockets would be the same. The Xeon and i7 variants aren't specifically compatible. The highest E3 is also roughly the same price as the lower E5 that would probably be used in an entry model mac pro. Either way it's a roughly $300 quad cpu. The difference here would be E5-16xx vs E5-24xx. I don't think Intel is going to pull the partial refresh thing again like they did with westmere.
• It will have support for dual GPUs with three-monitor support right out of the box
• No [Firewire 800] or optical drive
• It will be released in the fall
• It will be a completely new design
“While some of those details have shown up before, the rumored changes suggest something much closer to a souped-up Mac Mini than the $2,499, expandable desktop tower Apple has kept largely unchanged (physically) for the past decade,”
MacDailyNews Take: Who needs internal expansion with Thunderbolt’s speed and Jony Ive’s design ability? It’s time to rethink the professional desktop. Exterior expansion can be done neatly, especially with Jony Ive’s team on the case.
Something tells me this might be what they use in the Mac Pro redesign, if it's happening.
It couldn't be all that they used as they'd be stuck at quad-core. Typically they use older generations in the entry model - perhaps to hit a certain volume of chips to get a good price from Intel. If it's just to upsell people to the more expensive models, they have the option of using Sandy Bridge in the entry model.
HP uses E3 chips in their entry-level servers and some versions come with GT2 integrated graphics:
but the Ivy Bridge chips aren't available until Q3 (starts July). I'd guess that they are letting reseller inventory dry up completely to save them having pretty much obsolete hardware as soon as the new ones arrive.
Intel hasn't set a firm date so if they launch in July, Apple would be able to announce new ones at WWDC and ship in 4 weeks or so. If the chips arrive in September, they could still announce new ones but it would end up like the iMac launch.
It reads like a lot of rumours unfortunately. That is to say, discussions forums go over a lot of details, work up a few possibilities. Then someone wants some click-bait and so they pick and choose options that will get people talking and wrap it behind 'unnamed but credible sources'.
I'd rather they went the Thunderbolt route with it but it makes more sense to do this with the Falcon Ridge Thunderbolt controller. As for dual-GPU, that would have to mean an integrated GPU and one in a GPU slot - every new Mac with a dedicated GPU is a dual-GPU machine.
If it did mean dual-dedicated + integrated, they could go the MXM route for GPUs. A single 780MX would be fine for real-time graphics and they could offer Quadros, Radeons etc as a second GPU. They might be able to clock them high enough that there's negligible difference between them and full-size variants.
but the Ivy Bridge chips aren't available until Q3 (starts July). I'd guess that they are letting reseller inventory dry up completely to save them having pretty much obsolete hardware as soon as the new ones arrive.
Intel hasn't set a firm date so if they launch in July, Apple would be able to announce new ones at WWDC and ship in 4 weeks or so. If the chips arrive in September, they could still announce new ones but it would end up like the iMac launch...
The last paragraph may be a possibility. I'd love to see a 'Pro' Mini launch at the WWDC. Heaven knows it could use the publicity and shine some attention on the desktop line...and boost sales if it offers a great re-design, power and bang for buck. I wouldn't mind it shipping much later as they did with the iMac.
Got a bad feeling it will be laptops only and we'll see the 'Soup' later in the year.
For some reason the E5/E7 fell behind so they were on Sandy Bridge when E3 was on Ivy Bridge. Apple skipped Sandy Bridge E5 but Ivy Bridge E5 is next.
It couldn't be all that they used as they'd be stuck at quad-core.
That is old news in itself. They're different chips entirely. The only thing that is the same is the name Xeon. Notice how the "enthusiast class" i7s also met with delays. Those pair up with some of the lower Xeon EP models. E3s basically use the mainstream chips that go into most desktop machines. They came early with nehalem then slipped later Sandy. I'm curious whether more of the high core count stuff will go to GPGPU on the desktop and workstation end. 12 core X86 chips (so x2 for 24 total hyperthreaded to 48) seem more aligned with data center use with vms.
Quote:
Typically they use older generations in the entry model - perhaps to hit a certain volume of chips to get a good price from Intel. If it's just to upsell people to the more expensive models, they have the option of using Sandy Bridge in the entry model.
That only happened 2009 and on. I'm not sure whether you looked this up, but intel didn't release a complete lineup with westmere. The least expensive one was the 2.4 used in the 8 core. It wasn't any faster than the 2.8 nehalem version, yet it cost more to buy and implement. I think they're releasing v2 versions on all of the Sandy Bridge E 16xx ones.
Quote:
HP uses E3 chips in their entry-level servers and some versions come with GT2 integrated graphics:
I was unaware that some of them gained igpus. I still can't see them going this direction unless it caps out there. It lacks the component sharing advantages that I mentioned previous. If they did drop to E3s, perhaps Sonnet would lose that xmac trademark.
Man, so they're just ignoring Sandy Bridge and Ivy Bridge?
OH. Hey! These! Single socket, but still a Xeon! Something tells me this might be what they use in the Mac Pro redesign, if it's happening.
Anything is possible but these chips come up short in addressable memory. That is something that I suspect most Mac Pro users would be concerned with. Still the processors themselves are nothing to sneeze at.
I'm still of the opinion that if Apple has a Mac Pro ready to go at WWDC then they will have likely worked closely with Intel on an as yet unreleased chip. I just don't see this E3 as good enough to flesh out the entire line. It is good enough for an entry level motherboard that I've speculated about, but I can't see Apple debuting a low end Mac Pro solution without a high end option.
So either we get something not yet announced or the Mac Pro replacement is a few more months down the road.
Thought Marv', Wizard, Dark Defender and others may find this juicy bit interesting...
Lemon Bon Bon.
Very interesting Lemon very interesting!
It isn't exactly what I'm thinking about but does have some common points of interest. I don't like the implication that they will give up expansion capability. The fact is some vendors will never transition their hardware to TB, either because of TBs bandwidth limitations or because of the expense. So dropping PCI Express completely would be very difficult for many professionals.
The other comment about no internal expansion is that you really need variability in internal secondary storage. Even if that storage comes on a plug in card there needs to be slots to support those storage cards.
On the flips side Apple would be able to put a huge amount of processing power on somebodies desk fairly cheap. I'm still thinking $1200-$1500 for an entry level machine. With the high end models coming in much higher in the price sheet.
By the way I don't see this as a Mini on steroids, Apple will still need a fairly large box to accommodate all the hardware, especially in a dual socket board. The GPUs will likely be integrated on the motherboard too. All of this adds up to a big board. Big board means big box relative to the Mini but on the other hand much smaller than the current Mac Pro. I'd like to see a board of about 8" x 16" with the idea that the final chassis would fit into a half wide rack position. The board could be shorter, it all depends upon just what gets squeezed into the box.
Right now the best XEON solutions for this machine don't arrive until September. At least they are listed as such on some web sites. That of course supposes that Apple would wait to launch with Haswell derived XEONs. The reality is they don't have to wait for the Haswell based devices to launch as the CPUs in the Haswell derived chips have only modest performance gains. Significant power savings yes, but those are only significant in lower power states. A 65 watt chip after all is still 65 watts.
I'd love to see a 'Pro' Mini launch at the WWDC. Heaven knows it could use the publicity and shine some attention on the desktop line...and boost sales if it offers a great re-design, power and bang for buck. I wouldn't mind it shipping much later as they did with the iMac.
The problem here is the power supply and cooling. Apple seem to be very reluctant to actually scale the power supply in the Mini. This means that performance is limited by the wattage allocated to the CPU. Apple would have to break from previous practice.
All this being said it does look like Mini could get a significant boost from Haswell even with standard desktop or laptop chips. At the same wattage points GPU performance will improve in a very positive manner.
Got a bad feeling it will be laptops only and we'll see the 'Soup' later in the year.
Maybe not as many laptops as hoped. I still haven't seen a listing in any of the leaks about a suitable processor for the AIRs. We may wake up tomorrow and find a different array of processors but it looks like we will have a long drawn out Haswell debut.
I want to see a new Mac Pro that can cover two distinct sections of the desktop segment.
The first is what the Mac Pro was originally designed for, the DCC folk. Give me fast Xeon CPUs, a LOT of RAM & the ability (in drivers, OS & app support) to run nVidia Quadro GPUs & Tesla cards. I am looking at a combination of a nVidia Quadro K5000 & Tesla K20 here. Okay Quadro K6000 once they ship…
The second is the gamers out there. Allow the chassis to also be used as the mythical xMac, with lower priced consumer CPUs. Toss in a nVidia TITAN and my WoW rig would be good to go…
Maybe have support for http://www.fusionio.com/products/iofx/ in the OS & the Final Cut suite of software, to go along with a shiny new 30" ThunderBolt Retina display. I am looking at the emerging 4K video market here…
Just dreaming about the possibilities that could lie ahead…!
The second is the gamers out there. Allow the chassis to also be used as the mythical xMac, with lower priced consumer CPUs. Toss in a nVidia TITAN and my WoW rig would be good to go…
Apple doesn't care at all about gaming. And a Titan for World of Warcraft? That's like bringing an M-1 Abrams to a knife fight.
Apple doesn't care at all about gaming. And a Titan for World of Warcraft? That's like bringing an M-1 Abrams to a knife fight.
Maybe a nVidia TITAN card is a bit overkill for WoW, but maybe I want to hedge my bets and have an appropriately named card in place when Blizzard releases their Super Secret Skunkworks Next-Gen MMO Project, codenamed Titan…! ;^p
Apple's between a hard place and another hard place, being smashed together with rocks.
Either they release a new Mac Pro now and have it be immediately outdated by TB2 later or they have to hold off that much longer to wait for it…
I think they will hold off on actually shipping the new Mac Pro until they can actually get all the parts they need, but there SHOULD be some announcement & preview of the machine at WWDC…
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin
E3 ones are Haswell:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116909
http://ark.intel.com/products/series/75143
but they don't typically get used in the Mac Pro as the processors are just single socket. They might be ok in the entry model but dual would be the E5. Usually with the entry model, they use older CPUs but I doubt they'd do that this time. They shouldn't really be using the previous generation starting at $2500 anyway.
Ever since quad core Xeons have existed they've had single socket and dual socket mac pros with several current generation processor choices.
Originally Posted by Marvin
E3 ones are Haswell:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116909
http://ark.intel.com/products/series/75143
but they don't typically get used in the Mac Pro as the processors are just single socket. They might be ok in the entry model but dual would be the E5. Usually with the entry model, they use older CPUs but I doubt they'd do that this time. They shouldn't really be using the previous generation starting at $2500 anyway.
Man, so they're just ignoring Sandy Bridge and Ivy Bridge?
OH. Hey! These! Single socket, but still a Xeon! Something tells me this might be what they use in the Mac Pro redesign, if it's happening.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Man, so they're just ignoring Sandy Bridge and Ivy Bridge?
OH. Hey! These! Single socket, but still a Xeon! Something tells me this might be what they use in the Mac Pro redesign, if it's happening.
They are the equivalent of what goes into the imac. They have 4 more pci lanes and support ECC ram. but they lack integrated graphics. Everyone on here tends to view thunderbolt as a high priority, as the mac pro is the only machine without it. If that is the case you only really gain ECC ram using these. Thunderbolt would probably be easier to implement on the i7 versions. The E3s are equivalent in performance to an imac of the same generation. Some have hyperthreading disabled just like desktop i5s.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin
E3 ones are Haswell:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116909
http://ark.intel.com/products/series/75143
but they don't typically get used in the Mac Pro as the processors are just single socket. They might be ok in the entry model but dual would be the E5. Usually with the entry model, they use older CPUs but I doubt they'd do that this time. They shouldn't really be using the previous generation starting at $2500 anyway.
Once again that makes no sense. Those use a totally different socket, so you wouldn't be able to share parts with anything outside that entry model. They also couldn't use the imac logic board even though the sockets would be the same. The Xeon and i7 variants aren't specifically compatible. The highest E3 is also roughly the same price as the lower E5 that would probably be used in an entry model mac pro. Either way it's a roughly $300 quad cpu. The difference here would be E5-16xx vs E5-24xx. I don't think Intel is going to pull the partial refresh thing again like they did with westmere.
Quote:
Read more at http://macdailynews.com/2013/06/03/apples-new-mac-pro-no-internal-expandability-closer-to-beefy-mac-mini-launches-this-autumn-sources-say/#7AsJKDp4KOkDSS5P.99
Thought Marv', Wizard, Dark Defender and others may find this juicy bit interesting...
Lemon Bon Bon.
For some reason the E5/E7 fell behind so they were on Sandy Bridge when E3 was on Ivy Bridge. Apple skipped Sandy Bridge E5 but Ivy Bridge E5 is next.
It couldn't be all that they used as they'd be stuck at quad-core. Typically they use older generations in the entry model - perhaps to hit a certain volume of chips to get a good price from Intel. If it's just to upsell people to the more expensive models, they have the option of using Sandy Bridge in the entry model.
HP uses E3 chips in their entry-level servers and some versions come with GT2 integrated graphics:
http://www.intel.co.uk/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/guides/performance-xeon-e3-1200-hd-graphics-p4000-guide.pdf
There was an article about Mac Pro inventory drying up:
http://www.mactrast.com/2013/05/mac-pro-seeing-widespread-retail-stockouts-ahead-of-wwdc/
but the Ivy Bridge chips aren't available until Q3 (starts July). I'd guess that they are letting reseller inventory dry up completely to save them having pretty much obsolete hardware as soon as the new ones arrive.
Intel hasn't set a firm date so if they launch in July, Apple would be able to announce new ones at WWDC and ship in 4 weeks or so. If the chips arrive in September, they could still announce new ones but it would end up like the iMac launch.
https://www.facebook.com/MacProsPlease/posts/618830514796717
It reads like a lot of rumours unfortunately. That is to say, discussions forums go over a lot of details, work up a few possibilities. Then someone wants some click-bait and so they pick and choose options that will get people talking and wrap it behind 'unnamed but credible sources'.
I'd rather they went the Thunderbolt route with it but it makes more sense to do this with the Falcon Ridge Thunderbolt controller. As for dual-GPU, that would have to mean an integrated GPU and one in a GPU slot - every new Mac with a dedicated GPU is a dual-GPU machine.
If it did mean dual-dedicated + integrated, they could go the MXM route for GPUs. A single 780MX would be fine for real-time graphics and they could offer Quadros, Radeons etc as a second GPU. They might be able to clock them high enough that there's negligible difference between them and full-size variants.
Given the information from Macdailynews sources...
The 'Xeon' issue may even become a mute one.
It may depend greatly on how or if the 'Mac Pro' makes it out of its 1000 day gestation...
MAYBE, it will be something DIFFERENT seeing as Apple is increasingly 'consumer' to 'prosumer' focused (in that order...) from software to hardware...
'Souped up Mini' anyone?
Lemon Bon Bon.
But if the Xeon chips Apple will use in the redesign arrived in September...
...that would tie in with the 'souped up mini' release in the fall?
(Do Intel do a consumer 6 core chip?)
Lemon Bon Bon.
Quote:
but the Ivy Bridge chips aren't available until Q3 (starts July). I'd guess that they are letting reseller inventory dry up completely to save them having pretty much obsolete hardware as soon as the new ones arrive.
Intel hasn't set a firm date so if they launch in July, Apple would be able to announce new ones at WWDC and ship in 4 weeks or so. If the chips arrive in September, they could still announce new ones but it would end up like the iMac launch...
The last paragraph may be a possibility. I'd love to see a 'Pro' Mini launch at the WWDC. Heaven knows it could use the publicity and shine some attention on the desktop line...and boost sales if it offers a great re-design, power and bang for buck. I wouldn't mind it shipping much later as they did with the iMac.
Got a bad feeling it will be laptops only and we'll see the 'Soup' later in the year.
I hope it's sooner...
Lemon Bon Bon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin
For some reason the E5/E7 fell behind so they were on Sandy Bridge when E3 was on Ivy Bridge. Apple skipped Sandy Bridge E5 but Ivy Bridge E5 is next.
It couldn't be all that they used as they'd be stuck at quad-core.
That is old news in itself. They're different chips entirely. The only thing that is the same is the name Xeon. Notice how the "enthusiast class" i7s also met with delays. Those pair up with some of the lower Xeon EP models. E3s basically use the mainstream chips that go into most desktop machines. They came early with nehalem then slipped later Sandy. I'm curious whether more of the high core count stuff will go to GPGPU on the desktop and workstation end. 12 core X86 chips (so x2 for 24 total hyperthreaded to 48) seem more aligned with data center use with vms.
Quote:
Typically they use older generations in the entry model - perhaps to hit a certain volume of chips to get a good price from Intel. If it's just to upsell people to the more expensive models, they have the option of using Sandy Bridge in the entry model.
That only happened 2009 and on. I'm not sure whether you looked this up, but intel didn't release a complete lineup with westmere. The least expensive one was the 2.4 used in the 8 core. It wasn't any faster than the 2.8 nehalem version, yet it cost more to buy and implement. I think they're releasing v2 versions on all of the Sandy Bridge E 16xx ones.
Quote:
HP uses E3 chips in their entry-level servers and some versions come with GT2 integrated graphics:
http://www.intel.co.uk/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/guides/performance-xeon-e3-1200-hd-graphics-p4000-guide.pdf
There was an article about Mac Pro inventory drying up:
http://www.mactrast.com/2013/05/mac-pro-seeing-widespread-retail-stockouts-ahead-of-wwdc/
I was unaware that some of them gained igpus. I still can't see them going this direction unless it caps out there. It lacks the component sharing advantages that I mentioned previous. If they did drop to E3s, perhaps Sonnet would lose that xmac trademark.
Anything is possible but these chips come up short in addressable memory. That is something that I suspect most Mac Pro users would be concerned with. Still the processors themselves are nothing to sneeze at.
I'm still of the opinion that if Apple has a Mac Pro ready to go at WWDC then they will have likely worked closely with Intel on an as yet unreleased chip. I just don't see this E3 as good enough to flesh out the entire line. It is good enough for an entry level motherboard that I've speculated about, but I can't see Apple debuting a low end Mac Pro solution without a high end option.
So either we get something not yet announced or the Mac Pro replacement is a few more months down the road.
Very interesting Lemon very interesting!
It isn't exactly what I'm thinking about but does have some common points of interest. I don't like the implication that they will give up expansion capability. The fact is some vendors will never transition their hardware to TB, either because of TBs bandwidth limitations or because of the expense. So dropping PCI Express completely would be very difficult for many professionals.
The other comment about no internal expansion is that you really need variability in internal secondary storage. Even if that storage comes on a plug in card there needs to be slots to support those storage cards.
On the flips side Apple would be able to put a huge amount of processing power on somebodies desk fairly cheap. I'm still thinking $1200-$1500 for an entry level machine. With the high end models coming in much higher in the price sheet.
By the way I don't see this as a Mini on steroids, Apple will still need a fairly large box to accommodate all the hardware, especially in a dual socket board. The GPUs will likely be integrated on the motherboard too. All of this adds up to a big board. Big board means big box relative to the Mini but on the other hand much smaller than the current Mac Pro. I'd like to see a board of about 8" x 16" with the idea that the final chassis would fit into a half wide rack position. The board could be shorter, it all depends upon just what gets squeezed into the box.
All this being said it does look like Mini could get a significant boost from Haswell even with standard desktop or laptop chips. At the same wattage points GPU performance will improve in a very positive manner. Maybe not as many laptops as hoped. I still haven't seen a listing in any of the leaks about a suitable processor for the AIRs. We may wake up tomorrow and find a different array of processors but it looks like we will have a long drawn out Haswell debut.
I want to see a new Mac Pro that can cover two distinct sections of the desktop segment.
The first is what the Mac Pro was originally designed for, the DCC folk. Give me fast Xeon CPUs, a LOT of RAM & the ability (in drivers, OS & app support) to run nVidia Quadro GPUs & Tesla cards. I am looking at a combination of a nVidia Quadro K5000 & Tesla K20 here. Okay Quadro K6000 once they ship…
The second is the gamers out there. Allow the chassis to also be used as the mythical xMac, with lower priced consumer CPUs. Toss in a nVidia TITAN and my WoW rig would be good to go…
Maybe have support for http://www.fusionio.com/products/iofx/ in the OS & the Final Cut suite of software, to go along with a shiny new 30" ThunderBolt Retina display. I am looking at the emerging 4K video market here…
Just dreaming about the possibilities that could lie ahead…!
Originally Posted by MacRonin
The second is the gamers out there. Allow the chassis to also be used as the mythical xMac, with lower priced consumer CPUs. Toss in a nVidia TITAN and my WoW rig would be good to go…
Apple doesn't care at all about gaming. And a Titan for World of Warcraft? That's like bringing an M-1 Abrams to a knife fight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Apple doesn't care at all about gaming. And a Titan for World of Warcraft? That's like bringing an M-1 Abrams to a knife fight.
Maybe a nVidia TITAN card is a bit overkill for WoW, but maybe I want to hedge my bets and have an appropriately named card in place when Blizzard releases their Super Secret Skunkworks Next-Gen MMO Project, codenamed Titan…! ;^p
Intel announces Thunderbolt 2. I recant my end-of-year position. The new Mac Pro will be the feature product at WWDC!
Are you suggesting it might be TB 2, or TB 1 and stuck behind for a product generation? That would suck.
Originally Posted by JeffDM
Are you suggesting it might be TB 2, or TB 1 and stuck behind for a product generation? That would suck.
Apple's between a hard place and another hard place, being smashed together with rocks.
Either they release a new Mac Pro now and have it be immediately outdated by TB2 later or they have to hold off that much longer to wait for it…
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Apple's between a hard place and another hard place, being smashed together with rocks.
Either they release a new Mac Pro now and have it be immediately outdated by TB2 later or they have to hold off that much longer to wait for it…
I think they will hold off on actually shipping the new Mac Pro until they can actually get all the parts they need, but there SHOULD be some announcement & preview of the machine at WWDC…