I don't know about the design predictions. I look at it this way the chassis is old and is simply bigger than it needs to be. Given that and the introduction of a new architecture they might as well design a new case. The question then becomes how big and what does that case look like. I'm leaning towards a lower profile cube type machine.
Your mention of XGrid is interesting because I was thinking about that while writing one of the other responses. The thing is Apples handling of XGrid is a bit of a mystery. I'm not convinced that it is completely dead and as such could come back to us in a slightly different form.
You also mention workloads which ties in with XGrid. Frankly most people's workloads don't require top end Mac Pros anymore. However there is a core group of Mac Pro users that will never have enough and these are often the same users that could justify XGrid if it was refactored into a new platform. In other words the people that most honestly need a high performance workstation are the same ones that may be able to leverage a new take on XGrid.
Yeah I'm not sure. If they're serious about it they'll likely make some kind of design improvements. I'm not bothered by case size. Its just the form factor was designed with different hardware in mind. The Xeons are still a bit hot. 130-150W must be considered. The gpus and hard drive airflow are certainly points I wish they'd consider unless they intend to move toward the imac gpu strategy. Other workstation vendors tend to use workstation gpus, which aren't clocked so high. The 5870 runs pretty damn hot, but what matters is what they intend to use going forward. I'd be surprised if XGrid came back. Those still running the old hardware were referred to other solutions. It's hard for me to imagine these things returning. I have a similar opinion with the Xeon Phi in the current year. Apple tends to be a bit conservative on changes in the Mac lineup. They were much less conservative last year, so I suppose that could change. I typically examine their past trends. If we see a redesign it's likely that it could be driven by the current lack of an updated product. I mean that they basically signaled nothing was on the way for a while. I'd be a little shocked if they couldn't come up with a basic refresh by now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
I'm no expert in CPUs or chip sets but is it even possible to have dual i7s on a board?
No it isn't. Sandy Bridge E i7s won't work in dual socket boards. You can't use E5-16XX cpus in dual configurations either. They're either the same or similar in design.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon Bon Bon.
Don't we have a consumer 6 core from Intel?
Why not that in a consumer tower?
Don't we have Haswell cpus with more cores coming?
So far they've only offered it in the "enthusiast" options. Sandy Bridge E has a hex model. It uses the same socket type as the Xeons. The pricing is the same. I guess it's just a different chipset, ECC ram compliance, and whatever else. I could do more reading in that area.
This is bullshit. I work in an Apple Premium Reseller as well and if there is one thing we don't know it's new product releases. Especially brand new design releases etc.
The APR is probably just telling this to keep their customers from not buying the current Mac Pro because it is hard to get in the current distribution channel (it's being faded out in Europe).
Agreed, Apple wouldn't tell one random reseller and no one else.
What do you shoot? I never hear of anyone using those these days given their somewhat cumbersome nature. I mean you need huge ballasts for lighting as opposed to strobes and the current quality of medium format digital. I figured Better Light was mostly relegated to digitizing old paintings and documents that can't be fit on a large Scitex without the risk of damage. Also what kind of problems are you having with Spectraview? Is it that thing where it sometimes spits out wacky Delta E validations? Do you allow the colorimeter and display to warm up first? Also are you using one of their i1 display bundles if you're using the PA series? I switched to Eizo a while ago mostly because they're quicker about bug fixes. I still like NEC though.
There are many of us still using the Better Light system for fine art reproductions. Nothing else even comes close to capturing the details and the colors of a 40x60 inch painting. We also have 36 megapixel Nikons - and Hasselblads - but the Better Light system captures "pure" RGB without a Bayer filter. We use it with huge 900 watt North Lights - It is a very specialized setup and our artists appreciate the difference ... "Cumbersome" is not the word I would use --- it takes time and some skill to get the best possible results, but it's worth the effort. We do large-format Giclee reproductions and we also use the system to digitize damaged work that needs restoration.
The NEC Spectraview stopped working for most of us with OS 10.8 .. and I've updated the graphics cards in the MacPros trying to get a working profile. NEC and Apple blame each other ... I reverted to my X-Rite i1 system but I preferred the NEC approach.
My fingers are crossed that a newer MacPro will solve some problems and speed things up.
I have a large photo studio/digital printing company, and we have 2 maxed-out MacPros - 2007 and 2009. I've been waiting for more that a year to spend the $$$ in my equipment savings fund on a new MacPro - with faster processors, expanded RAM, SSD, USB3, Thunderbolt, and improved speeds on an eSATA board for running external drives ... in other words, 2013 computing.
According to Tim Cook this is indeed the year that you'll be getting a 2013 Mac Pro.
Yeah except it was only partially 64 bit when launched. It did not support 64 bit kernel until 2008.
It looked like they were the first with a consumer/professional desktop PC with 64-bit computing when the G5 launched, back in 2003. Staggered, small steps at a time. This AI article links to many more.
Yeah but the Haswell release has been delayed with the current projection being for June. Won't the push back the IB Xeons? If so, we're looking at a late july or even august release for them. How long can Apple wait for these, especially given that Intel's projections keep slipping?
They have a few different plants to build the chips. Haswell for laptops and desktops is high volume so they need yields to be high to meet 50+ million units in a single quarter. Intel shipped 181 million processors last year (Apple apparently nearly matched them with 176 million). Workstations and servers are only 12 million units a year across all vendors so per quarter, they only need at most 3 million processors and it's on a well established Ivy Bridge fab.
There's a report suggesting the delay was nothing to do with production issues:
"The actual reasons for the delay are unclear, but sources with knowledge of the talks between Intel and its partners among computer makers indicate that the latter had asked the former to postpone the roll-out of Haswell by several weeks to let them sell current-generation Core i 3000 “Ivy Bridge” chips.
Another reason why Intel might be interested in the delay of formal launch of Haswell is that Computex Taipei 2013 trade-show takes place in early June and at that exhibition numerous designs with new chips will be shown to the public.
Apple would get dragged over the coals for that but sadly Intel has no competition any more so they get away with it. Given that both are in production, I don't see why they couldn't have both in June.
There are many of us still using the Better Light system for fine art reproductions. Nothing else even comes close to capturing the details and the colors of a 40x60 inch painting. We also have 36 megapixel Nikons - and Hasselblads - but the Better Light system captures "pure" RGB without a Bayer filter. We use it with huge 900 watt North Lights - It is a very specialized setup and our artists appreciate the difference ... "Cumbersome" is not the word I would use --- it takes time and some skill to get the best possible results, but it's worth the effort. We do large-format Giclee reproductions and we also use the system to digitize damaged work that needs restoration.
I thought it might be fine art reproduction or something similar. That is why I referenced Scitex flatbeds, although I'm aware not everything fits safely on one of them. I completely understand the reasoning now. Bayer arrays have potential moire issues at times and effectively lower resolution in saturated primaries, and of course the aforementioned low pass filter. I'm familiar with Giclee reproductions too. That sounds like a very nice facility.
Quote:
The NEC Spectraview stopped working for most of us with OS 10.8 .. and I've updated the graphics cards in the MacPros trying to get a working profile. NEC and Apple blame each other ... I reverted to my X-Rite i1 system but I preferred the NEC approach.
My fingers are crossed that a newer MacPro will solve some problems and speed things up.
Apple is a little unpredictable at times, and I would guess that spectraview is supported by a somewhat small staff. I hope it's fixed soon. I really do like NEC, I actually went away from them due to how long things would stay broken at times, but I still suggest them to others as their hardware is so much better than anything else at a similar price point.
As usual, it will be tremendously more expensive, and much less powerful than a mid-range PC workstation. I'm not holding my breath over this one. The current 12 Core Mac Pro costs $10,589 with 3.06Ghz (3 year old) Xeons, 64GB of (outdated) RAM, 2 HDDs and an SSD, a 27" display, and a weak HD5870 budget-class gaming card. Meanwhile, I can get a 16-Core PC with socket-2011 Xeons, 96GB of RAM, the same HDDs, a 27" ultraHD Samsung display, and a workstation-class Quadro5000 for the grand total of $8500.
There's a reason why the Mac Pro has sold like @$$ for 4 years in a row.
As usual, it will be tremendously more expensive, and much less powerful than a mid-range PC workstation. I'm not holding my breath over this one. The current 12 Core Mac Pro costs $10,589 with 3.06Ghz (3 year old) Xeons, 64GB of (outdated) RAM, 2 HDDs and an SSD, a 27" display, and a weak HD5870 budget-class gaming card. Meanwhile, I can get a 16-Core PC with socket-2011 Xeons, 96GB of RAM, the same HDDs, a 27" ultraHD Samsung display, and a workstation-class Quadro5000 for the grand total of $8500.
There's a reason why the Mac Pro has sold like @$$ for 4 years in a row.
Hopefully they amp it up a bit. You are right on all counts and it is a damn shame.
Not sure about how reputable this rumor is, although it matches available data, so it can be true. Anyway, no matter if the spring release is true or not, this is the only important rumor I've seen for the last 12 months (and no, I never had a Mac Pro -yet- ,so no personal preferences here, just saying what's important for reinforcing what Apple stands for, and what not).
Yes, Steven Wolfram and Steve Jobs were quite close professionally I believe. Interesting to see where Wolfram goes over the next few years.
Well, just image what would be possible if at some point in the future Mathematica gets Siri integration ... the predictive interface is already there, and for the first version it can be rather nice. It's well done conceptionally. So for me, if they merge Siri, predictive interface and WolframAlpha - Mathematica will become an incredible machine - and closes the gap to the Star Trek enterprise computer.
Apple is a little unpredictable at times, and I would guess that spectraview is supported by a somewhat small staff. I hope it's fixed soon. I really do like NEC, I actually went away from them due to how long things would stay broken at times, but I still suggest them to others as their hardware is so much better than anything else at a similar price point.
There is a page at NEC on the problem with Mac OS 10.8:
Due to issues with the new Mac OS 10.8 (Mountain Lion) and the recent update to Mac OS 10.7.5, SpectraView II is not able to communicate with the displays on some systems with Nvidia based video chipsets when connected to the DVI inputs on a display. This includes both Thunderbolt (miniDisplayPort) video outputs when using a miniDisplayPort to DVI cable, and DVI to DVI connections. This impacts all MultiSync 80 series, MultiSync 90 series, and the MultiSync P221W models. NEC is currently working with Apple to resolve this issue, which is expected to be fixed in future updates to Mac OS.
The NEC MultiSync PA series and newer MultiSync P series models can utilize a USB connection to the display if necessary.
Customers with impacted systems currently using OS 10.7.4 or earlier are encouraged not to update to OS 10.7.5, or OS 10.8 at this point.
I have NOT been able to resolve the problem - even with a graphics card update - and I have put the NEC color sensor on the shelf.
I was meaning because of the leaks. Generally they come from China (and a few from Russia), both essentially lawless countries.
However France (specifically Mac suppliers and resellers in France), has recently been the source of huge amounts of leaks of Apple products, parts, etc. as well.
It's what that fact "says" about France, and the general attitude towards the law that would make steer me clear. You can't do effective business in a country that doesn't value IP and follow the law on IP. Russia and China have never even pretended to care about such things, but France is supposedly a "western" country in the European Union. They are supposed to follow the law on such things, but they clearly don't.
We have, and follow, laws on IP. IP is not the problem. Actually, the USA have been stealing considerable amounts of IP through creative buyout tactics (and worse, such as e-war), which basically means that you don't necessarily need to break the law. You can sidestep it or even have someone else break it for you, and reap the rewards. Read EU reports if you're interested, it's fascinating.
France, however, has taxes, labor laws and social factors that heavily favor big companies and make life hard for small innovative companies. That is the problem with opening a business in France. You still get to dip your croissant in your coffee however, which is a plus.
According to Tim Cook this is indeed the year that you'll be getting a 2013 Mac Pro.
It looked like they were the first with a consumer/professional desktop PC with 64-bit computing when the G5 launched, back in 2003. Staggered, small steps at a time. This AI article links to many more.
No. This is coming from an Apple Reseller. In American courthouses, hearsay, therefore inadmissible.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69
I don't know about the design predictions. I look at it this way the chassis is old and is simply bigger than it needs to be. Given that and the introduction of a new architecture they might as well design a new case. The question then becomes how big and what does that case look like. I'm leaning towards a lower profile cube type machine.
Your mention of XGrid is interesting because I was thinking about that while writing one of the other responses. The thing is Apples handling of XGrid is a bit of a mystery. I'm not convinced that it is completely dead and as such could come back to us in a slightly different form.
You also mention workloads which ties in with XGrid. Frankly most people's workloads don't require top end Mac Pros anymore. However there is a core group of Mac Pro users that will never have enough and these are often the same users that could justify XGrid if it was refactored into a new platform. In other words the people that most honestly need a high performance workstation are the same ones that may be able to leverage a new take on XGrid.
Yeah I'm not sure. If they're serious about it they'll likely make some kind of design improvements. I'm not bothered by case size. Its just the form factor was designed with different hardware in mind. The Xeons are still a bit hot. 130-150W must be considered. The gpus and hard drive airflow are certainly points I wish they'd consider unless they intend to move toward the imac gpu strategy. Other workstation vendors tend to use workstation gpus, which aren't clocked so high. The 5870 runs pretty damn hot, but what matters is what they intend to use going forward. I'd be surprised if XGrid came back. Those still running the old hardware were referred to other solutions. It's hard for me to imagine these things returning. I have a similar opinion with the Xeon Phi in the current year. Apple tends to be a bit conservative on changes in the Mac lineup. They were much less conservative last year, so I suppose that could change. I typically examine their past trends. If we see a redesign it's likely that it could be driven by the current lack of an updated product. I mean that they basically signaled nothing was on the way for a while. I'd be a little shocked if they couldn't come up with a basic refresh by now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
I'm no expert in CPUs or chip sets but is it even possible to have dual i7s on a board?
No it isn't. Sandy Bridge E i7s won't work in dual socket boards. You can't use E5-16XX cpus in dual configurations either. They're either the same or similar in design.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon Bon Bon.
Don't we have a consumer 6 core from Intel?
Why not that in a consumer tower?
Don't we have Haswell cpus with more cores coming?
So far they've only offered it in the "enthusiast" options. Sandy Bridge E has a hex model. It uses the same socket type as the Xeons. The pricing is the same. I guess it's just a different chipset, ECC ram compliance, and whatever else. I could do more reading in that area.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Berends
This is bullshit. I work in an Apple Premium Reseller as well and if there is one thing we don't know it's new product releases. Especially brand new design releases etc.
The APR is probably just telling this to keep their customers from not buying the current Mac Pro because it is hard to get in the current distribution channel (it's being faded out in Europe).
Agreed, Apple wouldn't tell one random reseller and no one else.
This is a ploy to get attention.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm
What do you shoot? I never hear of anyone using those these days given their somewhat cumbersome nature. I mean you need huge ballasts for lighting as opposed to strobes and the current quality of medium format digital. I figured Better Light was mostly relegated to digitizing old paintings and documents that can't be fit on a large Scitex without the risk of damage. Also what kind of problems are you having with Spectraview? Is it that thing where it sometimes spits out wacky Delta E validations? Do you allow the colorimeter and display to warm up first? Also are you using one of their i1 display bundles if you're using the PA series? I switched to Eizo a while ago mostly because they're quicker about bug fixes. I still like NEC though.
There are many of us still using the Better Light system for fine art reproductions. Nothing else even comes close to capturing the details and the colors of a 40x60 inch painting. We also have 36 megapixel Nikons - and Hasselblads - but the Better Light system captures "pure" RGB without a Bayer filter. We use it with huge 900 watt North Lights - It is a very specialized setup and our artists appreciate the difference ... "Cumbersome" is not the word I would use --- it takes time and some skill to get the best possible results, but it's worth the effort. We do large-format Giclee reproductions and we also use the system to digitize damaged work that needs restoration.
The NEC Spectraview stopped working for most of us with OS 10.8 .. and I've updated the graphics cards in the MacPros trying to get a working profile. NEC and Apple blame each other ... I reverted to my X-Rite i1 system but I preferred the NEC approach.
My fingers are crossed that a newer MacPro will solve some problems and speed things up.
According to Tim Cook this is indeed the year that you'll be getting a 2013 Mac Pro.
It looked like they were the first with a consumer/professional desktop PC with 64-bit computing when the G5 launched, back in 2003. Staggered, small steps at a time. This AI article links to many more.
No. This is coming from an Apple Reseller. In American courthouses, hearsay, therefore inadmissible.
They have a few different plants to build the chips. Haswell for laptops and desktops is high volume so they need yields to be high to meet 50+ million units in a single quarter. Intel shipped 181 million processors last year (Apple apparently nearly matched them with 176 million). Workstations and servers are only 12 million units a year across all vendors so per quarter, they only need at most 3 million processors and it's on a well established Ivy Bridge fab.
There's a report suggesting the delay was nothing to do with production issues:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/cpu/display/20121228160731_Intel_Delays_Introduction_of_Core_i_4000_Haswell_Microprocessors_Expands_Mobile_Lineup.html
"The actual reasons for the delay are unclear, but sources with knowledge of the talks between Intel and its partners among computer makers indicate that the latter had asked the former to postpone the roll-out of Haswell by several weeks to let them sell current-generation Core i 3000 “Ivy Bridge” chips.
Another reason why Intel might be interested in the delay of formal launch of Haswell is that Computex Taipei 2013 trade-show takes place in early June and at that exhibition numerous designs with new chips will be shown to the public.
Intel did not comment on the news-story."
Haswell is already in production:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/cpu/display/20130117233616_Intel_Starts_Production_of_Next_Generation_Haswell_Microprocessors.html
and someone supposedly got hold of an engineering sample, which came out slower than Ivy Bridge:
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Haswell-core-i7-benchmark-leak,20798.html
which led Francois Piednoel (Principal Engineer / Performance Architect at Intel) to tweet:
"#intel #haswell is very healthy in our labs, we don't see any case where it is slower than IvyB. .ru numbers are funky!"
Ivy bridge E samples seem to be in the open too:
http://hwbot.org/newsflash/1909_xeon_ivy_bridge_e_appears_in_china_cpu_z_validation_online
http://www.guru3d.com/news_story/intel_ivy_bridge_e_engineering_sample_spotted_on_ebay.html
It's all a lie, they're holding them back. #artificialsupplyconstraint
Apple would get dragged over the coals for that but sadly Intel has no competition any more so they get away with it. Given that both are in production, I don't see why they couldn't have both in June.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigPhotos
There are many of us still using the Better Light system for fine art reproductions. Nothing else even comes close to capturing the details and the colors of a 40x60 inch painting. We also have 36 megapixel Nikons - and Hasselblads - but the Better Light system captures "pure" RGB without a Bayer filter. We use it with huge 900 watt North Lights - It is a very specialized setup and our artists appreciate the difference ... "Cumbersome" is not the word I would use --- it takes time and some skill to get the best possible results, but it's worth the effort. We do large-format Giclee reproductions and we also use the system to digitize damaged work that needs restoration.
I thought it might be fine art reproduction or something similar. That is why I referenced Scitex flatbeds, although I'm aware not everything fits safely on one of them. I completely understand the reasoning now. Bayer arrays have potential moire issues at times and effectively lower resolution in saturated primaries, and of course the aforementioned low pass filter. I'm familiar with Giclee reproductions too. That sounds like a very nice facility.
Quote:
The NEC Spectraview stopped working for most of us with OS 10.8 .. and I've updated the graphics cards in the MacPros trying to get a working profile. NEC and Apple blame each other ... I reverted to my X-Rite i1 system but I preferred the NEC approach.
My fingers are crossed that a newer MacPro will solve some problems and speed things up.
Apple is a little unpredictable at times, and I would guess that spectraview is supported by a somewhat small staff. I hope it's fixed soon. I really do like NEC, I actually went away from them due to how long things would stay broken at times, but I still suggest them to others as their hardware is so much better than anything else at a similar price point.
Let me guess - it will be a thinner rectangular block with rounded edges?
:-p
No, the Core i7 chip doesn't have the necessary pins to support SMP configurations. Translation: multi-processors systems can only use Xeons.
There's a reason why the Mac Pro has sold like @$$ for 4 years in a row.
Hopefully they amp it up a bit. You are right on all counts and it is a damn shame.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elderloc
. When you use workstations for 99.999% uptime on things like rocket, and satellite control you need a solid platform.
But very few folks are doing that level of work and its likely on proprietary software and not Mac OS.
even folks using things like Final Cut tend to render in a farm of Linux/unix running hardware, not Mac based machines
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie
No. This is coming from an Apple Reseller. In American courthouses, hearsay, therefore inadmissible.
So that explains why we never hear actual sales numbers for Samsung products; those who actually sell them don't matter!
Not sure about how reputable this rumor is, although it matches available data, so it can be true. Anyway, no matter if the spring release is true or not, this is the only important rumor I've seen for the last 12 months (and no, I never had a Mac Pro -yet- ,so no personal preferences here, just saying what's important for reinforcing what Apple stands for, and what not).
You have to wait and see.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IQatEdo
Yes, Steven Wolfram and Steve Jobs were quite close professionally I believe. Interesting to see where Wolfram goes over the next few years.
Well, just image what would be possible if at some point in the future Mathematica gets Siri integration ... the predictive interface is already there, and for the first version it can be rather nice. It's well done conceptionally. So for me, if they merge Siri, predictive interface and WolframAlpha - Mathematica will become an incredible machine - and closes the gap to the Star Trek enterprise computer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm
Apple is a little unpredictable at times, and I would guess that spectraview is supported by a somewhat small staff. I hope it's fixed soon. I really do like NEC, I actually went away from them due to how long things would stay broken at times, but I still suggest them to others as their hardware is so much better than anything else at a similar price point.
There is a page at NEC on the problem with Mac OS 10.8:
http://www.necdisplay.com/support-and-services/spectra-view-II/Compatibility
Important compatibility notice:
Due to issues with the new Mac OS 10.8 (Mountain Lion) and the recent update to Mac OS 10.7.5, SpectraView II is not able to communicate with the displays on some systems with Nvidia based video chipsets when connected to the DVI inputs on a display. This includes both Thunderbolt (miniDisplayPort) video outputs when using a miniDisplayPort to DVI cable, and DVI to DVI connections. This impacts all MultiSync 80 series, MultiSync 90 series, and the MultiSync P221W models. NEC is currently working with Apple to resolve this issue, which is expected to be fixed in future updates to Mac OS.
The NEC MultiSync PA series and newer MultiSync P series models can utilize a USB connection to the display if necessary.
Customers with impacted systems currently using OS 10.7.4 or earlier are encouraged not to update to OS 10.7.5, or OS 10.8 at this point.
I have NOT been able to resolve the problem - even with a graphics card update - and I have put the NEC color sensor on the shelf.
Dick
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee
I was meaning because of the leaks. Generally they come from China (and a few from Russia), both essentially lawless countries.
However France (specifically Mac suppliers and resellers in France), has recently been the source of huge amounts of leaks of Apple products, parts, etc. as well.
It's what that fact "says" about France, and the general attitude towards the law that would make steer me clear. You can't do effective business in a country that doesn't value IP and follow the law on IP. Russia and China have never even pretended to care about such things, but France is supposedly a "western" country in the European Union. They are supposed to follow the law on such things, but they clearly don't.
We have, and follow, laws on IP. IP is not the problem. Actually, the USA have been stealing considerable amounts of IP through creative buyout tactics (and worse, such as e-war), which basically means that you don't necessarily need to break the law. You can sidestep it or even have someone else break it for you, and reap the rewards. Read EU reports if you're interested, it's fascinating.
France, however, has taxes, labor laws and social factors that heavily favor big companies and make life hard for small innovative companies. That is the problem with opening a business in France. You still get to dip your croissant in your coffee however, which is a plus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilM
Because of course Apple has always made unique models for the French market.
You stupid, you troll or what?
Headed to France does not mean "exclusive to the French market". Also, Azerty wants a private word with you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilBoogie
According to Tim Cook this is indeed the year that you'll be getting a 2013 Mac Pro.
It looked like they were the first with a consumer/professional desktop PC with 64-bit computing when the G5 launched, back in 2003. Staggered, small steps at a time. This AI article links to many more.
No. This is coming from an Apple Reseller. In American courthouses, hearsay, therefore inadmissible.
It's like the 640KB limit all over again!