lilgto64 seems to misunderstand the actual operating hours of the Paris Opera Apple Store. According to the Apple web site, they are open M-W 9 am to 8 pm, Th-Sa 9-9, and closed on Sundays.
The 9 pm to 6 am stretch is night shift work under French law. So, if on Thursdays, everyone goes home at 9, none of your day shift workers are working during the night hours. And, if everyone goes home on Tuesdays one hour after the store closes, again no problem.
By his thought, yeah, the store could have people come in at 7 am to prep the store for those 9 am shoppers.
My understanding is that under French law, you can have day shift people work during night shift hours under exceptional circumstances. It has to be something unusual, not "we need to get the store tidy for tomorrow."
I also hadn't realized the store already closes at 8pm. That goes along with my earlier comment. I think an hour of clean up and preparation in the evening shouldn't be an issue.
I do wonder how horrible it must be to live in a country where things aren't commonly open at night. Can you leave work at 9pm and still get to a pharmacy or grocery store?
Apple simply needs to make sure it's complying with EU and French laws. First they're not providing the amount of free warranty the law requires, then not informing consumers of their right, now they're not complying with French labour laws.
As has been said before, French laws do allow for employees to work after 9 p.m., but certain conditions need to be met.
Apple isn't above the law, and France isn't above punishing corporations, no matter how big...
I also hadn't realized the store already closes at 8pm. That goes along with my earlier comment. I think an hour of clean up and preparation in the evening shouldn't be an issue.
I do wonder how horrible it must be to live in a country where things aren't commonly open at night. Can you leave work at 9pm and still get to a pharmacy or grocery store?
Please, plenty of stores in France are open at night. Many restaurants, bars and pubs are too. It's actually a very nice place, just learn a few French phrases and don't be an ugly tourist...
Please, plenty of stores in France are open at night. Many restaurants, bars and pubs are too. It's actually a very nice place, just learn a few French phrases and don't be an ugly tourist...
You say plenty of stores but then follow it up with restaurants, bars and pubs. Quoi? What exactly are these labor laws if a retail shop is being fined for its employees working past 9pm? They were still paying their employees, right? And if a retail shop can't get around them why would I think that other stores can?
I've been all over France. For the most part the people were nice but I must say that the locals in Paris seem to dislike any outsiders more than any other country or city I've been to which I find odd since tourism is an amazing boon for the Paris and French economy.
PS: I always end up missing the states when I travel. I do like that so many places are opened around the clock..
PPS: With French unemployment nearing 11% I wonder if offering more hours and more jobs wouldn't be such a bad thing for the French people.
US bashing is clearly in vogue with some. Do you really believe we are all slaves working for nothing 24 hours a day? Or was that just a troll?
I’m not bashing the US. Every country has its pros and cons. Presently, the cons for me overweight the pros, so I wouldn’t move in the US, but I have no special hate or antipathy against America. Under democracy, every folk more or less gets the laws it deserves.
But I can’t believe there are some people out here are supporting Apple in this affair. Look: this is a company that refuses to pay shift hours to a handful of retail employees while it has more than $94 billion dollars in cash, its former CEO was rich enough to buy itself a private jet and a yacht, its director staff earns maybe tens of thousands of dollars a month. Worse: this company uses every possible trick to avoid paying taxes in the US (and then the California state is on the verge of bankruptcy, has to cut deeply in major public budgets like education, and eventually you get your stupid fiscal cliff…). And some call this ‘success’, ‘normality’ or ‘honesty’? Are they kidding? Who are they advocating?
Yeah, let's just blame unions and the French. The fact is that employers are routinely abusing their workforce because they know they can get away with demanding more and more and more without paying.
It sounds to me the managers were pushing the envelope and got whipped back.
Totally fine by me. Wish this wasn't just happening in France but here in Canada as well, where employers are NOTORIOUS slave drivers who whine bitch and find any way to not pay (including getting gobs of money from both the province and Ottawa for "training purposes"). Labour laws in this province are actually worse than most of Mexico...
I bet the comments here would be different if this article was about Walmart stores.
Yeah, let's just blame unions and the French. The fact is that employers are routinely abusing their workforce because they know they can get away with demanding more and more and more without paying.
It sounds to me the managers were pushing the envelope and get whipped back.
If they aren't paying them that's a different thing than the article stated with being fined because employees worked past 9pm. If they are breaking the law then appropriate fines should also be had but I question if the labor laws are not making it harder to the French people to earn money by disallowing an Apple store to be have staff past 9pm. Aren't there people needing jobs that wouldn't mind the opportunity to work at a 24 hours Apple Store in Paris?
France is also somewhat unique in that workers are either classified as contract or non-contract. I'm expecting that Apple managers were trying to pull a quick one by violating either form by insinuating to it's employees "work these extra hours or else we'll replace you with someone who will." If it was occasional, I bet most of the employees subjected to this wouldn't have much of a complaint since they got a little extra cash once and a while. But when it suddenly becomes an expectation that they stay, that's another matter.
This is an assumption on my part but I think that's probably what's going on. Someone complained, obviously. Apple managers pushed and squeezed but just went too far.
One can play the speculation game even further. Maybe other Apple employees were upset that a favoured employee was being given more hours by the manager and they got upset over it.
Each country ha sits own ways, just like each family, each person has their own beliefs. Some countries put culture, traditions and human interest before other interests. Some countries and groups of people have a more aquisitioning approach to life. Do you follow?
"Wherever you go, do as you see and project positively to others" That is my advice to everybody here and of course to companies like Apple.
Just before finishing: be careful and think twice before using the expression "3rd world countries". There is only ONE world.
I was raised in France in the mid fifties to mid sixties returning to the US to complete my college work. Moving from Brownsville Texas to France was like walking back in time 100 years.
What I found there was a great culture -- but a population wounded by war and jealous of US successes. They were particularly envious of our wealth. Some of my friends would confess that they believed the US was rich because they were poor.
Does that sound familiar?
So that same curse of entitlement continues to this day in France. The unions there represent an abuse of power and actually impoverish the country through toxic regulations and guaranteed government pensions the country obviously cannot afford.
Apple represents US innovation, hard work, and rewards for the most talented people. If they followed the spirit of French rules, they would die as a successful company IMHO. All people are not the same and should never be forced down or up based on union or government regulations. That is the core of having all things in common. And we all know that did not work in Cuba or Russia.
Just before finishing: be careful and think twice before using the expression "3rd world countries". There is only ONE world.
1) That's a nice sentiment but this one world has many parts. I'm not a big fan of the whole 1st/2nd/3rd world nomenclature for many reasons but its colloquial usage does seem easier than writing out poorly-industrialized nation or some other long, complex statement, despite the variations on how one might define a nation can't be summed up as one of three categories.
2) Wikipedia has a nice summary of the original meaning:
"The term Third World arose during the Cold War to define countries that remained non-aligned with either NATO (with the United States, Western European nations and their allies representing the First World), or the Communist Bloc (with the Soviet Union, the People's Republic of China, Cuba and their allies representing the Second World)."
How is cleaning the store and stocking the shelves an unusual activity? It isn't. Under the law the employees should not have been doing such late night work for those reasons.
Too many corporations take advantage of workers. In the USA there just aren't enough rights for the individuals.
I've seen jobs that pay minimum wage, or just above it, require employees to own a car. Imagine telling someone who will be earning less than $10,000 per year that they must spend at least $4000 of their income on maintaining a car. That is about the minimum expense for owning an older car. A new mid-size car will cost a person over $8000 per year to own and maintain.
Unions need to make a comeback in the USA before the corporations turn us all into wage slaves. Even you white collar workers need such representation. Without a union to protect you ALL companies make their employees "AT WILL" workers, which means on a whim they can fire you for any reason they can dream up.
Good on the French, at least they stand up for their rights. Just a week ago French workers at a US tyre company in France rioted as this rich prick was closing down the company because they refused to work like slaves so he could upgrade to a Ferrari. Here in Australia, they meekly go like sheep.
It won't be long before France bans working altogether. Beautiful country. Terribly screwed up labor laws.
So you are an expert on French labour law ?
Wow, like really wow, you visited France for how long? 1 week, I doubt 2, because you only get 2 weeks vacation in US.
Now you know everything about it.
You say plenty of stores but then follow it up with restaurants, bars and pubs. Quoi? What exactly are these labor laws if a retail shop is being fined for its employees working past 9pm? They were still paying their employees, right? And if a retail shop can't get around them why would I think that other stores can?
I've been all over France. For the most part the people were nice but I must say that the locals in Paris seem to dislike any outsiders more than any other country or city I've been to which I find odd since tourism is an amazing boon for the Paris and French economy.
PS: I always end up missing the states when I travel. I do like that so many places are opened around the clock..
PPS: With French unemployment nearing 11% I wonder if offering more hours and more jobs wouldn't be such a bad thing for the French people.
Drug stores and some grocery stores are the stores I remember being open after 9, though not that much later.
In Canada, retail stores are never open past 9 (unless you count Wal-Mart).
People in Paris are plenty nice, if you speak French And I'll admit, I've told American tourists (and Gypsies) I don't speak English...
I've always found it strange that so much in the US is open 24 hours per day, that shit don't fly up here (finding a 24hr McDonalds is rare, and before 2008 they didn't exist). The only stores open late here are liquor stores...
France is also somewhat unique in that workers are either classified as contract or non-contract. <...>
What you say is strange to me, unless you refer to the fact that, basically, employment contracts can be for unlimited duration (at least the limit is not written in the contract, nothing is eternal, of course) or limited duration contracts, which provide a more precarious position, of course.
Unions presence is weaker for the latter, of course, but generally speaking unions are somewhat weak in France, at least expressed in terms of number of members (as opposed to Germany, for example, where the common situation is that almost every worker is member of a union).
This, as well as the fact that for historical reasons, negotiation/compromise culture (in the "German way", let's say) is not so developed, leads to situations/confrontations like this (if you are weak, you do not want to accept a compromise which could appear as revealing your weak position), which in a "normal" situation, would have been resolved by negotiation (I cannot say more, I know nothing about the specificities of Apple in France as an employer).
But if negotiation has failed, indeed there is no other way for workers to appeal to the legal system to claim for their rights, and this I guess is true in any other country as well (at least in democratic countries, where workers have some rights, and have the opportunity to do so ...).
Comments
I also hadn't realized the store already closes at 8pm. That goes along with my earlier comment. I think an hour of clean up and preparation in the evening shouldn't be an issue.
I do wonder how horrible it must be to live in a country where things aren't commonly open at night. Can you leave work at 9pm and still get to a pharmacy or grocery store?
Apple simply needs to make sure it's complying with EU and French laws. First they're not providing the amount of free warranty the law requires, then not informing consumers of their right, now they're not complying with French labour laws.
As has been said before, French laws do allow for employees to work after 9 p.m., but certain conditions need to be met.
Apple isn't above the law, and France isn't above punishing corporations, no matter how big...
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
I also hadn't realized the store already closes at 8pm. That goes along with my earlier comment. I think an hour of clean up and preparation in the evening shouldn't be an issue.
I do wonder how horrible it must be to live in a country where things aren't commonly open at night. Can you leave work at 9pm and still get to a pharmacy or grocery store?
Please, plenty of stores in France are open at night. Many restaurants, bars and pubs are too. It's actually a very nice place, just learn a few French phrases and don't be an ugly tourist...
You say plenty of stores but then follow it up with restaurants, bars and pubs. Quoi? What exactly are these labor laws if a retail shop is being fined for its employees working past 9pm? They were still paying their employees, right? And if a retail shop can't get around them why would I think that other stores can?
I've been all over France. For the most part the people were nice but I must say that the locals in Paris seem to dislike any outsiders more than any other country or city I've been to which I find odd since tourism is an amazing boon for the Paris and French economy.
PS: I always end up missing the states when I travel. I do like that so many places are opened around the clock..
PPS: With French unemployment nearing 11% I wonder if offering more hours and more jobs wouldn't be such a bad thing for the French people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JollyPaul
Wow. Just wow.
US bashing is clearly in vogue with some. Do you really believe we are all slaves working for nothing 24 hours a day? Or was that just a troll?
I’m not bashing the US. Every country has its pros and cons. Presently, the cons for me overweight the pros, so I wouldn’t move in the US, but I have no special hate or antipathy against America. Under democracy, every folk more or less gets the laws it deserves.
But I can’t believe there are some people out here are supporting Apple in this affair. Look: this is a company that refuses to pay shift hours to a handful of retail employees while it has more than $94 billion dollars in cash, its former CEO was rich enough to buy itself a private jet and a yacht, its director staff earns maybe tens of thousands of dollars a month. Worse: this company uses every possible trick to avoid paying taxes in the US (and then the California state is on the verge of bankruptcy, has to cut deeply in major public budgets like education, and eventually you get your stupid fiscal cliff…). And some call this ‘success’, ‘normality’ or ‘honesty’? Are they kidding? Who are they advocating?
Yeah, let's just blame unions and the French. The fact is that employers are routinely abusing their workforce because they know they can get away with demanding more and more and more without paying.
It sounds to me the managers were pushing the envelope and got whipped back.
Totally fine by me. Wish this wasn't just happening in France but here in Canada as well, where employers are NOTORIOUS slave drivers who whine bitch and find any way to not pay (including getting gobs of money from both the province and Ottawa for "training purposes"). Labour laws in this province are actually worse than most of Mexico...
I bet the comments here would be different if this article was about Walmart stores.
If they aren't paying them that's a different thing than the article stated with being fined because employees worked past 9pm. If they are breaking the law then appropriate fines should also be had but I question if the labor laws are not making it harder to the French people to earn money by disallowing an Apple store to be have staff past 9pm. Aren't there people needing jobs that wouldn't mind the opportunity to work at a 24 hours Apple Store in Paris?
France is also somewhat unique in that workers are either classified as contract or non-contract. I'm expecting that Apple managers were trying to pull a quick one by violating either form by insinuating to it's employees "work these extra hours or else we'll replace you with someone who will." If it was occasional, I bet most of the employees subjected to this wouldn't have much of a complaint since they got a little extra cash once and a while. But when it suddenly becomes an expectation that they stay, that's another matter.
This is an assumption on my part but I think that's probably what's going on. Someone complained, obviously. Apple managers pushed and squeezed but just went too far.
One can play the speculation game even further. Maybe other Apple employees were upset that a favoured employee was being given more hours by the manager and they got upset over it.
"Wherever you go, do as you see and project positively to others" That is my advice to everybody here and of course to companies like Apple.
Just before finishing: be careful and think twice before using the expression "3rd world countries". There is only ONE world.
Best, CF
What I found there was a great culture -- but a population wounded by war and jealous of US successes. They were particularly envious of our wealth. Some of my friends would confess that they believed the US was rich because they were poor.
Does that sound familiar?
So that same curse of entitlement continues to this day in France. The unions there represent an abuse of power and actually impoverish the country through toxic regulations and guaranteed government pensions the country obviously cannot afford.
Apple represents US innovation, hard work, and rewards for the most talented people. If they followed the spirit of French rules, they would die as a successful company IMHO. All people are not the same and should never be forced down or up based on union or government regulations. That is the core of having all things in common. And we all know that did not work in Cuba or Russia.
1) That's a nice sentiment but this one world has many parts. I'm not a big fan of the whole 1st/2nd/3rd world nomenclature for many reasons but its colloquial usage does seem easier than writing out poorly-industrialized nation or some other long, complex statement, despite the variations on how one might define a nation can't be summed up as one of three categories.
2) Wikipedia has a nice summary of the original meaning:
3) One great thing to come out of the terminology is the phrase: Nerd World Problems.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][
Success is punished in France.
If I were Apple, I'd be careful about expanding any more in that sort of country.
France gets two thumbs down from me.
That's cool. At least you have to get your thumbs out of your butt to do it !
How is cleaning the store and stocking the shelves an unusual activity? It isn't. Under the law the employees should not have been doing such late night work for those reasons.
Too many corporations take advantage of workers. In the USA there just aren't enough rights for the individuals.
I've seen jobs that pay minimum wage, or just above it, require employees to own a car. Imagine telling someone who will be earning less than $10,000 per year that they must spend at least $4000 of their income on maintaining a car. That is about the minimum expense for owning an older car. A new mid-size car will cost a person over $8000 per year to own and maintain.
Unions need to make a comeback in the USA before the corporations turn us all into wage slaves. Even you white collar workers need such representation. Without a union to protect you ALL companies make their employees "AT WILL" workers, which means on a whim they can fire you for any reason they can dream up.
Here in Australia, they meekly go like sheep.
Wow, like really wow, you visited France for how long? 1 week, I doubt 2, because you only get 2 weeks vacation in US.
Now you know everything about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
You say plenty of stores but then follow it up with restaurants, bars and pubs. Quoi? What exactly are these labor laws if a retail shop is being fined for its employees working past 9pm? They were still paying their employees, right? And if a retail shop can't get around them why would I think that other stores can?
I've been all over France. For the most part the people were nice but I must say that the locals in Paris seem to dislike any outsiders more than any other country or city I've been to which I find odd since tourism is an amazing boon for the Paris and French economy.
PS: I always end up missing the states when I travel. I do like that so many places are opened around the clock..
PPS: With French unemployment nearing 11% I wonder if offering more hours and more jobs wouldn't be such a bad thing for the French people.
Drug stores and some grocery stores are the stores I remember being open after 9, though not that much later.
In Canada, retail stores are never open past 9 (unless you count Wal-Mart).
People in Paris are plenty nice, if you speak French
I've always found it strange that so much in the US is open 24 hours per day, that shit don't fly up here (finding a 24hr McDonalds is rare, and before 2008 they didn't exist). The only stores open late here are liquor stores...
Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickwalker
France is also somewhat unique in that workers are either classified as contract or non-contract. <...>
What you say is strange to me, unless you refer to the fact that, basically, employment contracts can be for unlimited duration (at least the limit is not written in the contract, nothing is eternal, of course) or limited duration contracts, which provide a more precarious position, of course.
Unions presence is weaker for the latter, of course, but generally speaking unions are somewhat weak in France, at least expressed in terms of number of members (as opposed to Germany, for example, where the common situation is that almost every worker is member of a union).
This, as well as the fact that for historical reasons, negotiation/compromise culture (in the "German way", let's say) is not so developed, leads to situations/confrontations like this (if you are weak, you do not want to accept a compromise which could appear as revealing your weak position), which in a "normal" situation, would have been resolved by negotiation (I cannot say more, I know nothing about the specificities of Apple in France as an employer).
But if negotiation has failed, indeed there is no other way for workers to appeal to the legal system to claim for their rights, and this I guess is true in any other country as well (at least in democratic countries, where workers have some rights, and have the opportunity to do so ...).
That small a fine means no one actually considered it a big deal.