The problem is not with night hours. After all, here in France, as well as in any decent country in the world, there are people like doctors, fire brigades, transportation personnel (trains, buses, planes…), and so on that work from 9 pm to 6 am. But it has to be specified on the work contract when you sign in, and night hours are overpaid and give you extra days off. What is illegal is to force somebody to work after 9 pm if this is not explicitly mentioned at start (i.e. without his prior formal consent).
After all, as somebody pointed out, here in Paris we got other things to do after 9 pm. If you guys don’t get a life outside your office, that’s your business, so to speak – and if you are crazy enough to give away extra time to your company without any compensation, too bad for you, and too good for your bosses and shareholders…
Somehow, working conditions and schedules have to be defined and enforced by law, otherwise it is called slavery. It is very surprising to me – looking to the US from the other shore of the Atlantic – how some Americans deal with work, up to the point of nearly enslaving themselves; but that’s a very clever victory of both U.S. politicians and bosses alike to have been able to nail down into workers’ minds that they should accept whatever ludicrous conditions were imposed on them. Already in the seventeenth century, a French author had written on this: La Boetie, "Discours sur la servitude volontaire".
Have fun guys!
PS: remember English is not my mother language!
So good to read a post that makes sense, you put the other whiners to shame, more so as English is not your first language.
There is MUCH more to life than to be a slave to the bosses.
France has got it right. I have visited France many times and I love the language, culture and life there, its so much more relaxed. French cinema is infintly better than the Hollywood garbage.
If I could get a job there, I would be on the plane within a second, although my poor French may exclude me.
I agree wholeheartly what you posted, but watch as you get vilified by those who know nothing, but talk like they know everything.
It would be preferable if commenters would refrain from making derogatory statements about France unless they have direct experience in the country. I live and work in France, and though labor relations can at times be strained, they are not necessarily more so than in many other countries. What is worth noting here is that Apple must apply French law to their store employees working in France, and if they don't they run afoul of it.
All international employment law is complicated, and Apple is not particularly known for internationalizing its operations, rather trying to export Californian business practices to the rest of the world.
I wouldn't extrapolate too much from this judgement; Apple France must be more careful in its scheduling, or justify the hours requested of employees in advance.
Well put.
Americans need to learn that the rest of the world begins 12 miles from the coastline of the US.
I’m not bashing the US. Every country has its pros and cons. Presently, the cons for me overweight the pros, so I wouldn’t move in the US, but I have no special hate or antipathy against America. Under democracy, every folk more or less gets the laws it deserves.
But I can’t believe there are some people out here are supporting Apple in this affair. Look: this is a company that refuses to pay shift hours to a handful of retail employees while it has more than $94 billion dollars in cash, its former CEO was rich enough to buy itself a private jet and a yacht, its director staff earns maybe tens of thousands of dollars a month. Worse: this company uses every possible trick to avoid paying taxes in the US (and then the California state is on the verge of bankruptcy, has to cut deeply in major public budgets like education, and eventually you get your stupid fiscal cliff…). And some call this ‘success’, ‘normality’ or ‘honesty’? Are they kidding? Who are they advocating?
I agree Apple is hoarding their money, why ?
For a rainy day perhaps.
Remember this is the same company that wanted to reduce wages/hours for its store employees in the US, but this was riscinded and the retail guy left soon after. Why take the chance of impacting on customer service for a few lousy bucks.
Improve their wages and conditions, watch as they stay, improve and flourish, its a win-win for all.
1) That's a nice sentiment but this one world has many parts. I'm not a big fan of the whole 1st/2nd/3rd world nomenclature for many reasons but its colloquial usage does seem easier than writing out poorly-industrialized nation or some other long, complex statement, despite the variations on how one might define a nation can't be summed up as one of three categories.
2) Wikipedia has a nice summary of the original meaning:
"The term Third World arose during the Cold War to define countries that remained non-aligned with either NATO (with the United States, Western European nations and their allies representing the First World), or the Communist Bloc (with the Soviet Union, the People's Republic of China, Cuba and their allies representing the Second World)."
So good to read a post that makes sense, you put the other whiners to shame, more so as English is not your first language.
[…]
Thanks
Quote:
Originally Posted by hfts
I agree Apple is hoarding their money, why ?
For a rainy day perhaps.
Remember this is the same company that wanted to reduce wages/hours for its store employees in the US, but this was riscinded and the retail guy left soon after. Why take the chance of impacting on customer service for a few lousy bucks.
Improve their wages and conditions, watch as they stay, improve and flourish, its a win-win for all.
Its not just Apple, all companys should do this.
Yet, in the case of Apple, and other high-tech companies like Google that have become experts in embezzlement, I can’t help thinking this is not only dishonest, but a form of plunder. I mean – I have no stats – but I am pretty sure that a large percentage of Apple engineers stem from of state universities. Take the clang compiler, for example: it began life as a research project in the Illinois state U, and Chris Lattner, who initiated it, was hired by Apple; even MacOS is derived from 4.4 BSD, a version of Unix developed at Berkeley free of charge. State universities run on public money (taxes). Apple is probably very happy to find graduated people to fuel its own R&D, but somehow refuse to return the favor…
…in France, as well as in any decent country in the world…
Somehow, working conditions and schedules have to be defined and enforced by law, otherwise it is called slavery. It is very surprising to me – looking to the US…
Originally Posted by EauVive
I’m not bashing the US.
Sure you're not.
Why is it that the French users here almost always report every single post made about France, regardless of content or context, in any thread in which they appear?
Worse: this company uses every possible trick to avoid paying taxes in the US…
Would you rather we silently accept every single tax put upon us by both our country's and our supranational union's governments, unquestioningly, regardless of what it is and whether it should be different?
I find it odd that you mention "questioning" labor laws but have the opposite view on this.
Why is it that the French users here almost always report every single post made about France, regardless of content or context, in any thread in which they appear?
Immunity. We are genetically programmed to react to any kind of US antigen intrusion. That’s why, from the cradle on, we eat non-pasteurized stinking cheese
Would you rather we silently accept every single tax put upon us by both our country's and our supranational union's governments, unquestioningly, regardless of what it is and whether it should be different?
I find it odd that you mention "questioning" labor laws but have the opposite view on this.
Did I mentioned that? As someone recently put it: the law is the law; you can like it, dislike it, even hate it; it can be debated and eventually altered, but it is still the law, and, as such, it must be obeyed…
Wrong.
Just because its in Wilpedia doesn't make it correct.
3rd world countries was a term coined to categorise those that are developing economies, mainly African and Asian.
USSR and its allies were never termed as second world, EVER, where did you dig this crap up ?
The US and its allies were called the Free-West or the West to differentiate from USSR and its allies.
By the way the Free-west is a bit of an oxymoron.
As I stated, your definition is a modern colloquial use. The term originally had no barring on developed or undeveloped. It was based on alliances.
As someone recently put it: the law is the law; you can like it, dislike it, even hate it; it can be debated and eventually altered, but it is still the law, and, as such, it must be obeyed…
I used to work a 9-5:30pm M-F, and then a double-shift weekend job from 3pm Saturday afternoon to 7am Sunday morning and then 3pm Sunday afternoon to 7am Monday morning, which my weekday job starting just two hours later. Leaving work Monday evening after 24 hours of work in the span of 26.5 hours was my weekend. That nine 8 hour shifts per week which comes out to 72 hours per week. I did that routine for 6 months. I didn't go out as I had no time nor energy but I saved a lot of money. It was the start of my investing and ability to retire by 30yo (which I'm now no longer doing as found retirement boring).
It was rough but I wouldn't do it differently if I had the choice. It was the first time I felt like an adult, the first time I felt I was finally taking responsibility for my own future.
This is a great personal story, thanks for sharing.
Most of us are basically anonymous here (some more than others, heh), but it also feels like a weird, dysfunctional family as well, where many of us "know" each other. After years of reading/writing (mostly reading, in my case), I'm sure most of us have learned about/created interesting personalities for the other active members. I don't recall ever hearing the story above before, but it bumps my impression of you up a notch (and you're already a pretty respectable guy around here IMO ;-) ). I could share a similar tale, but not without getting too personal, to the point of being more or less identifiable IRL, so I'll pass for now. But props given, from me anyway.
Good money-management and investment skills aside, you'll have to admit you got lucky to hit the point you did by age 30. Many people who have good money-management skills and at least partake in investment (lots of luck required to be consistently successful on a large scale), still take decades to reach that point. I'm sure it's a combination of smarts/skill, luck and just Doing Something.
That said, having seen my "fortune" come and go twice, I'll caution you (and everyone else) to be careful not to get overconfident based on past success.
Glad to hear that you're doing something other than "retirement". Care to drop any hints?
It would be preferable if commenters would refrain from making derogatory statements about France unless they have direct experience in the country. I live and work in France, and though labor relations can at times be strained, they are not necessarily more so than in many other countries.
I don't think anyone is concerned about strain within labor relations, but rather that the French idea of what is acceptable and unacceptable work/working hours/working conditions is much more conservative than the rest of the world.
I have no problem if foreigners want to view those type of work restrictions as commentary on the political and social values of the country...because those work restrictions were put in place by the people of France. They chose to set up their society that way, and so they should have no problem with defending outside critique of their system.
Good money-management and investment skills aside, you'll have to admit you got lucky to hit the point you did by age 30.
Absolutely! I've made the argument before that most of of what we get in this world has to do with luck. Some disagreed with me. I think they felt I was saying that their success wasn't their doing. Of course if you work on hard on something to achieve a goal you should get credit for that but my comment was geared toward the opportunities that are put n place that allowed that goal or goals to be achievable in the first place. Good family, good public education, good health care, not being physically or mentally ill from birth or from some accident readily come to mind. Even the time and place you are born, how you look and your gender can play a role. I take credit for taking advantage of that work situation early on in my life but I understand that my opportunities far outnumber the average person.
2) Wikipedia has a nice summary of the original meaning:
"The term Third World arose during the Cold War to define countries that remained non-aligned with either NATO (with the United States, Western European nations and their allies representing the First World), or the Communist Bloc (with the Soviet Union, the People's Republic of China, Cuba and their allies representing the Second World)."
So I would be careful before using the logic "since its on wikipedia it must be true".Its a slippery slope from there.As far as this issue goes I do not see what is wrong with workers getting what is rightfully theirs.
Apple is based out of Cupertino,CA.Not much good it has done to the state has it?
And when you stash away your money out of the country,you cannot whine about the rules in different countries.
Apple wants the labour laws but not the tax laws of the United States.
Unless of course it is China where they do not have problem with either the communism or the labour laws.
So I would be careful before using the logic "since its on wikipedia it must be true"
There is a distinct different with asserting that something is true because it's on the internet and citing a definition that you found on the internet. You seem to claim that just because I cited Wikipedia it is therefore false and should not be trusted without any consideration for using that page as a jumping off point to verify the data I took the time to cite.
If you think that the info I posted as to the original definition is false then please make that argument along with all appropriate citations to back it up but to imply that my citation to Wikipedia is wrong because they also post a detailed etymology of the word nigger makes no sense. BTW, that page is quite accurate as to the original usage of nigger.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by EauVive
The problem is not with night hours. After all, here in France, as well as in any decent country in the world, there are people like doctors, fire brigades, transportation personnel (trains, buses, planes…), and so on that work from 9 pm to 6 am. But it has to be specified on the work contract when you sign in, and night hours are overpaid and give you extra days off. What is illegal is to force somebody to work after 9 pm if this is not explicitly mentioned at start (i.e. without his prior formal consent).
After all, as somebody pointed out, here in Paris we got other things to do after 9 pm. If you guys don’t get a life outside your office, that’s your business, so to speak – and if you are crazy enough to give away extra time to your company without any compensation, too bad for you, and too good for your bosses and shareholders…
Somehow, working conditions and schedules have to be defined and enforced by law, otherwise it is called slavery. It is very surprising to me – looking to the US from the other shore of the Atlantic – how some Americans deal with work, up to the point of nearly enslaving themselves; but that’s a very clever victory of both U.S. politicians and bosses alike to have been able to nail down into workers’ minds that they should accept whatever ludicrous conditions were imposed on them. Already in the seventeenth century, a French author had written on this: La Boetie, "Discours sur la servitude volontaire".
Have fun guys!
PS: remember English is not my mother language!
So good to read a post that makes sense, you put the other whiners to shame, more so as English is not your first language.
There is MUCH more to life than to be a slave to the bosses.
France has got it right. I have visited France many times and I love the language, culture and life there, its so much more relaxed. French cinema is infintly better than the Hollywood garbage.
If I could get a job there, I would be on the plane within a second, although my poor French may exclude me.
I agree wholeheartly what you posted, but watch as you get vilified by those who know nothing, but talk like they know everything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ptoolan
It would be preferable if commenters would refrain from making derogatory statements about France unless they have direct experience in the country. I live and work in France, and though labor relations can at times be strained, they are not necessarily more so than in many other countries. What is worth noting here is that Apple must apply French law to their store employees working in France, and if they don't they run afoul of it.
All international employment law is complicated, and Apple is not particularly known for internationalizing its operations, rather trying to export Californian business practices to the rest of the world.
I wouldn't extrapolate too much from this judgement; Apple France must be more careful in its scheduling, or justify the hours requested of employees in advance.
Well put.
Americans need to learn that the rest of the world begins 12 miles from the coastline of the US.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][
Success is punished in France.
If I were Apple, I'd be careful about expanding any more in that sort of country.
France gets two thumbs down from me.
What are you blabbing about ?
Do you think Tim Cook even knows you exists ?
You appear to be suffering from xenophobia (go and look it up in the dictionary).
Viva la France !
Quote:
Originally Posted by EauVive
I’m not bashing the US. Every country has its pros and cons. Presently, the cons for me overweight the pros, so I wouldn’t move in the US, but I have no special hate or antipathy against America. Under democracy, every folk more or less gets the laws it deserves.
But I can’t believe there are some people out here are supporting Apple in this affair. Look: this is a company that refuses to pay shift hours to a handful of retail employees while it has more than $94 billion dollars in cash, its former CEO was rich enough to buy itself a private jet and a yacht, its director staff earns maybe tens of thousands of dollars a month. Worse: this company uses every possible trick to avoid paying taxes in the US (and then the California state is on the verge of bankruptcy, has to cut deeply in major public budgets like education, and eventually you get your stupid fiscal cliff…). And some call this ‘success’, ‘normality’ or ‘honesty’? Are they kidding? Who are they advocating?
I agree Apple is hoarding their money, why ?
For a rainy day perhaps.
Remember this is the same company that wanted to reduce wages/hours for its store employees in the US, but this was riscinded and the retail guy left soon after. Why take the chance of impacting on customer service for a few lousy bucks.
Improve their wages and conditions, watch as they stay, improve and flourish, its a win-win for all.
Its not just Apple, all companys should do this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
1) That's a nice sentiment but this one world has many parts. I'm not a big fan of the whole 1st/2nd/3rd world nomenclature for many reasons but its colloquial usage does seem easier than writing out poorly-industrialized nation or some other long, complex statement, despite the variations on how one might define a nation can't be summed up as one of three categories.
2) Wikipedia has a nice summary of the original meaning:
"The term Third World arose during the Cold War to define countries that remained non-aligned with either NATO (with the United States, Western European nations and their allies representing the First World), or the Communist Bloc (with the Soviet Union, the People's Republic of China, Cuba and their allies representing the Second World)."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_World
3) One great thing to come out of the terminology is the phrase: Nerd World Problems.
Wrong.
Just because its in Wilpedia doesn't make it correct.
3rd world countries was a term coined to categorise those that are developing economies, mainly African and Asian.
USSR and its allies were never termed as second world, EVER, where did you dig this crap up ?
The US and its allies were called the Free-West or the West to differentiate from USSR and its allies.
By the way the Free-west is a bit of an oxymoron.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hfts
Scrolled to the top and could not help read the VERY first post, bashing the French, pathetic.
You must be looking at a different first post displayed than everyone else...
No bashing going on there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hfts
So good to read a post that makes sense, you put the other whiners to shame, more so as English is not your first language.
[…]
Thanks
Quote:
Originally Posted by hfts
I agree Apple is hoarding their money, why ?
For a rainy day perhaps.
Remember this is the same company that wanted to reduce wages/hours for its store employees in the US, but this was riscinded and the retail guy left soon after. Why take the chance of impacting on customer service for a few lousy bucks.
Improve their wages and conditions, watch as they stay, improve and flourish, its a win-win for all.
Its not just Apple, all companys should do this.
Yet, in the case of Apple, and other high-tech companies like Google that have become experts in embezzlement, I can’t help thinking this is not only dishonest, but a form of plunder. I mean – I have no stats – but I am pretty sure that a large percentage of Apple engineers stem from of state universities. Take the clang compiler, for example: it began life as a research project in the Illinois state U, and Chris Lattner, who initiated it, was hired by Apple; even MacOS is derived from 4.4 BSD, a version of Unix developed at Berkeley free of charge. State universities run on public money (taxes). Apple is probably very happy to find graduated people to fuel its own R&D, but somehow refuse to return the favor…
Originally Posted by EauVive
…in France, as well as in any decent country in the world…
Somehow, working conditions and schedules have to be defined and enforced by law, otherwise it is called slavery. It is very surprising to me – looking to the US…
Originally Posted by EauVive
I’m not bashing the US.
Sure you're not.
Why is it that the French users here almost always report every single post made about France, regardless of content or context, in any thread in which they appear?
Worse: this company uses every possible trick to avoid paying taxes in the US…
Would you rather we silently accept every single tax put upon us by both our country's and our supranational union's governments, unquestioningly, regardless of what it is and whether it should be different?
I find it odd that you mention "questioning" labor laws but have the opposite view on this.
Immunity. We are genetically programmed to react to any kind of US antigen intrusion. That’s why, from the cradle on, we eat non-pasteurized stinking cheese
Did I mentioned that? As someone recently put it: the law is the law; you can like it, dislike it, even hate it; it can be debated and eventually altered, but it is still the law, and, as such, it must be obeyed…
As I stated, your definition is a modern colloquial use. The term originally had no barring on developed or undeveloped. It was based on alliances.
Originally Posted by EauVive
As someone recently put it: the law is the law; you can like it, dislike it, even hate it; it can be debated and eventually altered, but it is still the law, and, as such, it must be obeyed…
Apple's obeying the tax law. *shrug*
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
I used to work a 9-5:30pm M-F, and then a double-shift weekend job from 3pm Saturday afternoon to 7am Sunday morning and then 3pm Sunday afternoon to 7am Monday morning, which my weekday job starting just two hours later. Leaving work Monday evening after 24 hours of work in the span of 26.5 hours was my weekend. That nine 8 hour shifts per week which comes out to 72 hours per week. I did that routine for 6 months. I didn't go out as I had no time nor energy but I saved a lot of money. It was the start of my investing and ability to retire by 30yo (which I'm now no longer doing as found retirement boring).
It was rough but I wouldn't do it differently if I had the choice. It was the first time I felt like an adult, the first time I felt I was finally taking responsibility for my own future.
This is a great personal story, thanks for sharing.
Most of us are basically anonymous here (some more than others, heh), but it also feels like a weird, dysfunctional family as well, where many of us "know" each other. After years of reading/writing (mostly reading, in my case), I'm sure most of us have learned about/created interesting personalities for the other active members. I don't recall ever hearing the story above before, but it bumps my impression of you up a notch (and you're already a pretty respectable guy around here IMO ;-) ). I could share a similar tale, but not without getting too personal, to the point of being more or less identifiable IRL, so I'll pass for now. But props given, from me anyway.
Good money-management and investment skills aside, you'll have to admit you got lucky to hit the point you did by age 30. Many people who have good money-management skills and at least partake in investment (lots of luck required to be consistently successful on a large scale), still take decades to reach that point. I'm sure it's a combination of smarts/skill, luck and just Doing Something.
That said, having seen my "fortune" come and go twice, I'll caution you (and everyone else) to be careful not to get overconfident based on past success.
Glad to hear that you're doing something other than "retirement". Care to drop any hints?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ptoolan
It would be preferable if commenters would refrain from making derogatory statements about France unless they have direct experience in the country. I live and work in France, and though labor relations can at times be strained, they are not necessarily more so than in many other countries.
I don't think anyone is concerned about strain within labor relations, but rather that the French idea of what is acceptable and unacceptable work/working hours/working conditions is much more conservative than the rest of the world.
I have no problem if foreigners want to view those type of work restrictions as commentary on the political and social values of the country...because those work restrictions were put in place by the people of France. They chose to set up their society that way, and so they should have no problem with defending outside critique of their system.
Absolutely! I've made the argument before that most of of what we get in this world has to do with luck. Some disagreed with me. I think they felt I was saying that their success wasn't their doing. Of course if you work on hard on something to achieve a goal you should get credit for that but my comment was geared toward the opportunities that are put n place that allowed that goal or goals to be achievable in the first place. Good family, good public education, good health care, not being physically or mentally ill from birth or from some accident readily come to mind. Even the time and place you are born, how you look and your gender can play a role. I take credit for taking advantage of that work situation early on in my life but I understand that my opportunities far outnumber the average person.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
2) Wikipedia has a nice summary of the original meaning:
"The term Third World arose during the Cold War to define countries that remained non-aligned with either NATO (with the United States, Western European nations and their allies representing the First World), or the Communist Bloc (with the Soviet Union, the People's Republic of China, Cuba and their allies representing the Second World)."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_World
Well wikipedia also has this .
So I would be careful before using the logic "since its on wikipedia it must be true".Its a slippery slope from there.As far as this issue goes I do not see what is wrong with workers getting what is rightfully theirs.
Apple is based out of Cupertino,CA.Not much good it has done to the state has it?
And when you stash away your money out of the country,you cannot whine about the rules in different countries.
Apple wants the labour laws but not the tax laws of the United States.
Unless of course it is China where they do not have problem with either the communism or the labour laws.
There is a distinct different with asserting that something is true because it's on the internet and citing a definition that you found on the internet. You seem to claim that just because I cited Wikipedia it is therefore false and should not be trusted without any consideration for using that page as a jumping off point to verify the data I took the time to cite.
If you think that the info I posted as to the original definition is false then please make that argument along with all appropriate citations to back it up but to imply that my citation to Wikipedia is wrong because they also post a detailed etymology of the word nigger makes no sense. BTW, that page is quite accurate as to the original usage of nigger.
Originally Posted by Crowley
They will do now, after being taken to court because they weren't. Pretty liberal definition of "obeying" you have there.
Wait, when was Apple taken to court over disobeying tax law?