I would like to inform you that a full replacement is not the objective, You install panels and they feed back into the grid so you save on your electricity usage not fully replace it although you could. The pay back is around 15 years however that timeline could be shortened if electricity costs go up which they might.
So something ELSE that takes 15 years to pay off and which isn't a replacement for or better solution than that which is already in place.
And you wonder why people haven't adopted it.
Look, when I can grab ~5 panels for a grand a pop, drop 'em on my roof, and have all my electricity needs taken care of, then I'll adopt. Until then, I won't and I don't see any meaningful number of people doing the same, either.
So something ELSE that takes 15 years to pay off and which isn't a replacement for or better solution than that which is already in place.
And you wonder why people haven't adopted it.
Look, when I can grab ~5 panels for a grand a pop, drop 'em on my roof, and have all my electricity needs taken care of, then I'll adopt. Until then, I won't and I don't see any meaningful number of people doing the same, either.
A very large portion of the US population do not own their own home so investing in personal solar power is not an option for them. If you do own your own home and have the appropriate installation site it make a lot of sense. I know a few people who have gone completely of grid with their electricity. I have no solar panels at this time although I plan to install some on my property in Central America to run the well pump and the pressure pump just in case of power outages. Perhaps more later but it takes a lot of planning to incorporate Solar DC/AC conversion into your home.
Well how many people actually have a house or living quarters that this device will work well on? Well enough. That way this device will sell and make money for this guy. After all it isn't an iPhone.
I have one of the first gen Nests and it's great. I've done some insulation improvements and am working on more, but it's been very useful. Once you program in your temperature range and times of day, you're golden, and it's easy.
I was gone for two weeks over Christmas, forgot to turn off the thermostat, no problem because auto-away shut it down. Only ran when it got super cold and the safety temp set in to keep pipes from freezing. Through the app you can see it's usage, or the website, and you are emailed Nest energy reports at the end of every month. It's really set it and forget it. Plus it's gorgeous and everyone asks about it.
Room for improvement - remote sensors throughout the house, and perhaps a way to use that information such as self-shutting or self-adjusting registers in a few key rooms. These both exist already, but they're far from being as refined as the Nest is.
I'm glad they're working on improvements, but new units every year seems dumb. Thermostats should last decades, not a decade. I hope they don't plan to force me to upgrade through planned obsolescence, because that's going to engender some ill will.
A beautifully designed device. I don't think we can get them here in Australia. I don't care about the heating/cooling savings, I want a minimalist and functional thermostat that is smart and looks beautiful. The ugly plastic thing I have now is truly disgusting and a nightmare to use.
I would like to inform you that a full replacement is not the objective, You install panels and they feed back into the grid so you save on your electricity usage not fully replace it although you could. The pay back is around 15 years however that timeline could be shortened if electricity costs go up which they might.
Also your assertion that most people do not live where solar power can be taken advantage of is just nonsense. The majority of the world's population live close to the equatorial region where solar power is very appropriate.
15 years payback vs (many cases) less than 1 year?
How much for ONE solar panel? Can I personally install that?
I have four Nests all installed by me (the first one with a little help from their EXCELLENT tech support), 3 first gen and 1 second gen for our new HVAC unit at home. My business has saved over 80 hours per month of HVAC use with 2 Nest units.
I absolutely love the Internet access. I can change the temp right from the bed. Keep it cool at night and add a thick comforter is my preferred way. Your way may be different. But the Nest is one small part of the overall energy saving lifestyle. Others have mentioned excellent and cheap modalities. 2¢
So something ELSE that takes 15 years to pay off and which isn't a replacement for or better solution than that which is already in place.
And you wonder why people haven't adopted it.
Look, when I can grab ~5 panels for a grand a pop, drop 'em on my roof, and have all my electricity needs taken care of, then I'll adopt. Until then, I won't and I don't see any meaningful number of people doing the same, either.
Do a Google search for "net metering". The sun is on all the time (except at night). New electric meters can actually run backwards as your production exceeds your demands, while you're at work, or when your Nest Thermostat decides you don't need heating and A/C. It's too expensive for me right now, but your conception of solar power is antiquated.
Do a Google search for "net metering". The sun is on all the time (except at night). New electric meters can actually run backwards as your production exceeds your demands, while you're at work, or when your Nest Thermostat decides you don't need heating and A/C. It's too expensive for me right now, but your conception of solar power is antiquated.
The meters run backwards? Well - yes until your energy supplier finds out. If it were only that simple. Once you get solar, almost all electricity suppliers demand you get an export type meter. That way they can pay you 20% of what you pay them per KWH
So something ELSE that takes 15 years to pay off and which isn't a replacement for or better solution than that which is already in place.
And you wonder why people haven't adopted it.
Look, when I can grab ~5 panels for a grand a pop, drop 'em on my roof, and have all my electricity needs taken care of, then I'll adopt. Until then, I won't and I don't see any meaningful number of people doing the same, either.
First, solar pays for itself in far less than 15 years in some parts of the country. I've seen cases where it paid for itself in as little as 3 years.
Second, the main issue is one of 'cost to society' vs 'cost to the individual'. Our existing fuel sources are so heavily subsidized by society (look up 'externalities') that the energy user is paying only a small fraction of the cost and society is picking up the rest. If you look at it from society's cost, fossil fuels are every bit as expensive (sometimes more expensive) than solar or wind. So society should be (and is) encouraging solar via things like rebates and incentives.
AI at Expand: While Nest founder Matt Rogers says his company will continue to come out with new hardware iterations of its iOS-compatible learning thermostat, the device is built for durability, and Nest doesn't expect customers to go out and buy a new model every year.
No kidding. You mean people aren't going to drop $300 to replace a thermostat every year just for the style?
I can understand that it might make sense to replace a conventional thermostat with a Nest thermostat. Energy savings are the main driver. But once you already have a Nest thermostat, there's no reason to change - and I can't imagine that anyone ever considered it. Sounds like a silly statement to even bother making.
The meters run backwards? Well - yes until your energy supplier finds out. If it were only that simple. Once you get solar, almost all electricity suppliers demand you get an export type meter. That way they can pay you 20% of what you pay them per KWH
Not true at all. In most cases, they have to pay you at least as much for electricity you sell them as you pay for electricity you buy from them. In some cases, they pay much more. In some cases, they have to pay for the energy at peak rates while you pay prevailing rates for the time you use the energy (as in, night rates are much lower). In other cases, there is a surcharge that they have to pay you for clean energy.
I read about one area where the consumer purchases electricity for $0.08 / kWh and sells it back for $0.17/kwh. They were actually able to make a nice profit on their system.
Not true at all. In most cases, they have to pay you at least as much for electricity you sell them as you pay for electricity you buy from them. In some cases, they pay much more. In some cases, they have to pay for the energy at peak rates while you pay prevailing rates for the time you use the energy (as in, night rates are much lower). In other cases, there is a surcharge that they have to pay you for clean energy.
I read about one area where the consumer purchases electricity for $0.08 / kWh and sells it back for $0.17/kwh. They were actually able to make a nice profit on their system.
You could be right overall. Dunno as I haven't checked outside of my home state. At least here Florida Power uses a little sleight-of-hand to imply it's an equal trade-off for the homeowner who produces excess renewable energy. It's not, instead favoring the power company.
Rather than paying at least the same rate as they sold energy to you, they apparently compute the payments to the homeowner based on what they didn't have to spend to produce it themselves, referred to by "As-Available Avoided Energy Cost". With FPL choosing how it's defined and computed, it's of course somewhat less than what the homeowner pays FPL. Advantage power company. For a state with as much solar power production potential as Florida it's certainly not very friendly or encouraging to the solar-power industry IMO.
We love ours. Nest 2.0 works perfectly. Remodeled when switching from oil forced hot air / rice coal stoker to natural gas. I love the lockout so my kids don't mess with it. Love the wifi hookup to my apple extreme. I can control it with an app I got for my macs/phones/pads. But my favorite part has to be run time. The little energy bar that tells me exactly how long every day the call for heat has been and weather it was me or the weather the changed that. multi stage heating works great. showed my wife the graph and said see all these little icons... thats you messing with the stat. Quit touching it. Well it's been almost 3 months now, and she doesn't touch it at all anymore. We have a schedule that works for my 2 story home perfectly. The location of the stat just happened to be perfect to the most foot traffic. Good placement and settings and this thing is a winner.
At least here Florida Power uses a little sleight-of-hand to imply it's an equal trade-off for the homeowner who produces excess renewable energy. It's not, instead favoring the power company.
In Southern California, Edison just installed new digital meters that they can monitor from their control center without having a meter reader. Apparently they don't run backwards without some special configuration, but they are still happy to receive your home grown energy. In most cases, home owners opted for the discount configuration that enables the power to be automatically cut to your AC unit during brown out or rolling black out conditions during heat waves. There are so many multi-story office complexes around here which use a tremendous amount of energy for AC and the power company can't always deliver enough so they are encouraging home owners to install solar with rebates and discounts. Solar is only cost effective for the home owner if the power company is willing to pay you for your excess power.
Another practical arrangement though, is if you can keep an electric car plugged in during the day. Many people are at work during the day so this is not always convenient. That is why it is essential that the power company pay you for your power because you are generating power during peak usage times while you are at work, during the daylight hours, and consuming power at night when there is less demand.
Off grid solar is just too complicated to consider for the average home owner. On-grid solar does not provide any power during a power company black out. It only produces power if there is grid line voltage. This is a safety feature as the electricity workers don't want any reverse power coming through the lines if they are trying to work on them to restore the power during an outage.
How much for ONE solar panel? Can I personally install that?
Installing one panel is not wise since you need a system with an inverter, a lot of wiring, etc, so no you cannot install it yourself. You really need to evaluate your electricity needs first. Depending on your needs and available installation site, weather, latitude and power company cooperation, you ideally would want perhaps 12 panels or around 3,000W which might be suitable for a 2,000 sq. ft. home even though it would not provide all your electricity needs especially if you are running the AC.
If you do the maximum amount of insulation an forward-thinking planning to increase power efficiency I don't see why a $250 thermostat won't save you money in the long run.
The best way to save money is to have the bare minimum cubic space to regulate but I don't think I've ever heard anyone say, "get a smaller home to save money on heating and cooling." I have heard people express how their electric bills are lower after going to a smaller home but I've never heard the specific cubic space of climate controlled space as a reason for the change.
If you do the maximum amount of insulation an forward-thinking planning to increase power efficiency I don't see why a $250 thermostat won't save you money in the long run.
Actually, the better insulated and more energy efficient your home is, the LESS money you'll save with an expensive thermostat.
The best way to save money is to have the bare minimum cubic space to regulate but I don't think I've ever heard anyone say, "get a smaller home to save money on heating and cooling." I have heard people express how their electric bills are lower after going to a smaller home but I've never heard the specific cubic space of climate controlled space as a reason for the change.
Maybe not a new Nest every year but I'm sure there are other product they could come out with in home automation that would link-up with the Nest. Belkin has wifi enabled outlets that you can control via iPhone or Android but what about light switches too. To monitor and control those items in the house would be neat as well. A Nest garage door monitor would be helpful to alert if it is open for too long of a duration with sensors to detect entry into the garage area. I guess a security system in general would be neat to see from this company.
Insulate your home properly, set it to a constant, comfortable temperature, and you're done. You'll save FAR more money, the entire family and all your pets will be FAR more comfortable (oo, need to pad off to the bathroom at 2 am? Too bad it's 50 bloody degrees, eh?)
Seriously people, wake up and smell the coffee. You're paying to heat and cool the outdoors. Stop doing that. Best investment you can make in bill reduction, and unlike a thermostat that plays freeze-your-toes-at-night, the investment will pay you back the entire time you own your home.
Start by buying a cheap thermal sensor gun, plug all the little holes and leaks. There will be plenty. Then call an insulation company and see what they can offer you. Your wallet will thank you. So will your bare feet. And you can put your sweaters away.
Oh yeah... new construction? Contract for thicker, better insulated walls. Go overboard. It's not even that costly. Your power and gas companies will hate you for it.
Comments
Originally Posted by mstone
I would like to inform you that a full replacement is not the objective, You install panels and they feed back into the grid so you save on your electricity usage not fully replace it although you could. The pay back is around 15 years however that timeline could be shortened if electricity costs go up which they might.
So something ELSE that takes 15 years to pay off and which isn't a replacement for or better solution than that which is already in place.
And you wonder why people haven't adopted it.
Look, when I can grab ~5 panels for a grand a pop, drop 'em on my roof, and have all my electricity needs taken care of, then I'll adopt. Until then, I won't and I don't see any meaningful number of people doing the same, either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
So something ELSE that takes 15 years to pay off and which isn't a replacement for or better solution than that which is already in place.
And you wonder why people haven't adopted it.
Look, when I can grab ~5 panels for a grand a pop, drop 'em on my roof, and have all my electricity needs taken care of, then I'll adopt. Until then, I won't and I don't see any meaningful number of people doing the same, either.
A very large portion of the US population do not own their own home so investing in personal solar power is not an option for them. If you do own your own home and have the appropriate installation site it make a lot of sense. I know a few people who have gone completely of grid with their electricity. I have no solar panels at this time although I plan to install some on my property in Central America to run the well pump and the pressure pump just in case of power outages. Perhaps more later but it takes a lot of planning to incorporate Solar DC/AC conversion into your home.
Well how many people actually have a house or living quarters that this device will work well on? Well enough. That way this device will sell and make money for this guy. After all it isn't an iPhone.
I have one of the first gen Nests and it's great. I've done some insulation improvements and am working on more, but it's been very useful. Once you program in your temperature range and times of day, you're golden, and it's easy.
I was gone for two weeks over Christmas, forgot to turn off the thermostat, no problem because auto-away shut it down. Only ran when it got super cold and the safety temp set in to keep pipes from freezing. Through the app you can see it's usage, or the website, and you are emailed Nest energy reports at the end of every month. It's really set it and forget it. Plus it's gorgeous and everyone asks about it.
Room for improvement - remote sensors throughout the house, and perhaps a way to use that information such as self-shutting or self-adjusting registers in a few key rooms. These both exist already, but they're far from being as refined as the Nest is.
I'm glad they're working on improvements, but new units every year seems dumb. Thermostats should last decades, not a decade. I hope they don't plan to force me to upgrade through planned obsolescence, because that's going to engender some ill will.
I don't think we can get them here in Australia. I don't care about the heating/cooling savings, I want a minimalist and functional thermostat that is smart and looks beautiful.
The ugly plastic thing I have now is truly disgusting and a nightmare to use.
How much for ONE solar panel? Can I personally install that?
I have four Nests all installed by me (the first one with a little help from their EXCELLENT tech support), 3 first gen and 1 second gen for our new HVAC unit at home. My business has saved over 80 hours per month of HVAC use with 2 Nest units.
I absolutely love the Internet access. I can change the temp right from the bed. Keep it cool at night and add a thick comforter is my preferred way. Your way may be different. But the Nest is one small part of the overall energy saving lifestyle. Others have mentioned excellent and cheap modalities. 2¢
Do a Google search for "net metering". The sun is on all the time (except at night). New electric meters can actually run backwards as your production exceeds your demands, while you're at work, or when your Nest Thermostat decides you don't need heating and A/C. It's too expensive for me right now, but your conception of solar power is antiquated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryA
Do a Google search for "net metering". The sun is on all the time (except at night). New electric meters can actually run backwards as your production exceeds your demands, while you're at work, or when your Nest Thermostat decides you don't need heating and A/C. It's too expensive for me right now, but your conception of solar power is antiquated.
The meters run backwards? Well - yes until your energy supplier finds out. If it were only that simple. Once you get solar, almost all electricity suppliers demand you get an export type meter. That way they can pay you 20% of what you pay them per KWH
First, solar pays for itself in far less than 15 years in some parts of the country. I've seen cases where it paid for itself in as little as 3 years.
Second, the main issue is one of 'cost to society' vs 'cost to the individual'. Our existing fuel sources are so heavily subsidized by society (look up 'externalities') that the energy user is paying only a small fraction of the cost and society is picking up the rest. If you look at it from society's cost, fossil fuels are every bit as expensive (sometimes more expensive) than solar or wind. So society should be (and is) encouraging solar via things like rebates and incentives.
No kidding. You mean people aren't going to drop $300 to replace a thermostat every year just for the style?
I can understand that it might make sense to replace a conventional thermostat with a Nest thermostat. Energy savings are the main driver. But once you already have a Nest thermostat, there's no reason to change - and I can't imagine that anyone ever considered it. Sounds like a silly statement to even bother making.
Not true at all. In most cases, they have to pay you at least as much for electricity you sell them as you pay for electricity you buy from them. In some cases, they pay much more. In some cases, they have to pay for the energy at peak rates while you pay prevailing rates for the time you use the energy (as in, night rates are much lower). In other cases, there is a surcharge that they have to pay you for clean energy.
I read about one area where the consumer purchases electricity for $0.08 / kWh and sells it back for $0.17/kwh. They were actually able to make a nice profit on their system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
Not true at all. In most cases, they have to pay you at least as much for electricity you sell them as you pay for electricity you buy from them. In some cases, they pay much more. In some cases, they have to pay for the energy at peak rates while you pay prevailing rates for the time you use the energy (as in, night rates are much lower). In other cases, there is a surcharge that they have to pay you for clean energy.
I read about one area where the consumer purchases electricity for $0.08 / kWh and sells it back for $0.17/kwh. They were actually able to make a nice profit on their system.
You could be right overall. Dunno as I haven't checked outside of my home state. At least here Florida Power uses a little sleight-of-hand to imply it's an equal trade-off for the homeowner who produces excess renewable energy. It's not, instead favoring the power company.
Rather than paying at least the same rate as they sold energy to you, they apparently compute the payments to the homeowner based on what they didn't have to spend to produce it themselves, referred to by "As-Available Avoided Energy Cost". With FPL choosing how it's defined and computed, it's of course somewhat less than what the homeowner pays FPL. Advantage power company. For a state with as much solar power production potential as Florida it's certainly not very friendly or encouraging to the solar-power industry IMO.
https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://www.fpl.com/rates/pdf/electric_tariff_section10.pdf
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatorguy
At least here Florida Power uses a little sleight-of-hand to imply it's an equal trade-off for the homeowner who produces excess renewable energy. It's not, instead favoring the power company.
In Southern California, Edison just installed new digital meters that they can monitor from their control center without having a meter reader. Apparently they don't run backwards without some special configuration, but they are still happy to receive your home grown energy. In most cases, home owners opted for the discount configuration that enables the power to be automatically cut to your AC unit during brown out or rolling black out conditions during heat waves. There are so many multi-story office complexes around here which use a tremendous amount of energy for AC and the power company can't always deliver enough so they are encouraging home owners to install solar with rebates and discounts. Solar is only cost effective for the home owner if the power company is willing to pay you for your excess power.
Another practical arrangement though, is if you can keep an electric car plugged in during the day. Many people are at work during the day so this is not always convenient. That is why it is essential that the power company pay you for your power because you are generating power during peak usage times while you are at work, during the daylight hours, and consuming power at night when there is less demand.
Off grid solar is just too complicated to consider for the average home owner. On-grid solar does not provide any power during a power company black out. It only produces power if there is grid line voltage. This is a safety feature as the electricity workers don't want any reverse power coming through the lines if they are trying to work on them to restore the power during an outage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pablorph
How much for ONE solar panel? Can I personally install that?
Installing one panel is not wise since you need a system with an inverter, a lot of wiring, etc, so no you cannot install it yourself. You really need to evaluate your electricity needs first. Depending on your needs and available installation site, weather, latitude and power company cooperation, you ideally would want perhaps 12 panels or around 3,000W which might be suitable for a 2,000 sq. ft. home even though it would not provide all your electricity needs especially if you are running the AC.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fyngyrz
Insulate your home properly, set it to a constant, comfortable temperature, and you're done.
You will always save more money by setting a lower temperature when you're away in the winter and a higher temperature when you're away in the summer. http://fivepercent.us/2009/01/20/dont-set-your-programmable-thermostat-too-low-myth/ An automatic thermostat, and especially a smart one like Nest, make this easier.
If you do the maximum amount of insulation an forward-thinking planning to increase power efficiency I don't see why a $250 thermostat won't save you money in the long run.
The best way to save money is to have the bare minimum cubic space to regulate but I don't think I've ever heard anyone say, "get a smaller home to save money on heating and cooling." I have heard people express how their electric bills are lower after going to a smaller home but I've never heard the specific cubic space of climate controlled space as a reason for the change.
Actually, the better insulated and more energy efficient your home is, the LESS money you'll save with an expensive thermostat.
I've heard that from a number of people.
That's completely different than saying a learning thermostat won't save you money so long as you invest heavily in insulation.
Maybe not a new Nest every year but I'm sure there are other product they could come out with in home automation that would link-up with the Nest. Belkin has wifi enabled outlets that you can control via iPhone or Android but what about light switches too. To monitor and control those items in the house would be neat as well. A Nest garage door monitor would be helpful to alert if it is open for too long of a duration with sensors to detect entry into the garage area. I guess a security system in general would be neat to see from this company.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fyngyrz
Insulate your home properly, set it to a constant, comfortable temperature, and you're done. You'll save FAR more money, the entire family and all your pets will be FAR more comfortable (oo, need to pad off to the bathroom at 2 am? Too bad it's 50 bloody degrees, eh?)
Seriously people, wake up and smell the coffee. You're paying to heat and cool the outdoors. Stop doing that. Best investment you can make in bill reduction, and unlike a thermostat that plays freeze-your-toes-at-night, the investment will pay you back the entire time you own your home.
Start by buying a cheap thermal sensor gun, plug all the little holes and leaks. There will be plenty. Then call an insulation company and see what they can offer you. Your wallet will thank you. So will your bare feet. And you can put your sweaters away.
Oh yeah... new construction? Contract for thicker, better insulated walls. Go overboard. It's not even that costly. Your power and gas companies will hate you for it.
Ditto that.