I've used more than one iPhone app that shows a satellite map of the property instead of a map of the stores and restaurants inside the building. The Mandalay Bay app for example. Completely useless for finding the coffee shop. It would be more useful to simply show a static graphic of the floorplan. The WiFiSLAM technology could fix that.
Because the technique they used for scanning WiFi is not allowed on iOS
Nonsense. You're using that as a reason why Apple wouldn't incorporate WiFi into Maps? Apple sets the rules - they can easily choose to use WiFi if they wish.
They do not allow third parties to do so, I believe, but that won't affect them.
The real problem, of course, is that 10,000 bloggers will start talking about Apple violating everyone's privacy by using WiFi signals to localize people.
Perhaps, but Apple has chosen not to acquire or provide any of their own data in Apple Maps but instead gets all their outdoor data from third party vendors. Why do you think they would just now be interested in owning location data for indoor maps? I am not all that impressed with the WiFiSLAM process of having to obtain and upload a floor plan. Floor plans change, stores open and close in malls, wifi hot spots change, or are replaced with stronger signals, you have to select the floor of the building manually. This just doesn't seem like an Apple "just works" type of technology.
Agreed. Apple just hasn't proven themselves yet as being able to deliver on mapping. But perhaps this purchase indicates a commitment. I would definitely use indoor mapping if it was based on accurate, up-to-date information. The question is how do they hope to get this? It's one thing to be able to determine where you are in a building by scanning wifi access points. It's a whole different thing to keep up with changing storefronts in a mall or the layout of a temporary trade show.
Nonsense. You're using that as a reason why Apple wouldn't incorporate WiFi into Maps? Apple sets the rules - they can easily choose to use WiFi if they wish.
They do not allow third parties to do so, I believe, but that won't affect them.
The real problem, of course, is that 10,000 bloggers will start talking about Apple violating everyone's privacy by using WiFi signals to localize people.
Right. But hopefully Apple has learned their lesson when they had to put out this fire the first time and be sure to not capture the data permanently locally or on their servers.
I just hope they don't pull what they did with transit in their Maps app. There is obviously demand for wifi scanning for location purposes. Apple could just use this tech to create an API for developers to include in their own apps instead of actually incorporating it into their mapping application. Then I'd need a separate app for every mall I visit or show I attend.
I still think, regarding MS' fatal embrace, that there should be a law that if you buy a company and don't use it's IP in a relevant product, the IP gets public domain...
After all, while private property is an essential basis of modern society, "the public good" is the basis for any society, and "fatal embrace" is a clear damage to said society...
Just watched a Youtube video about the wifiSLAM technology. This is a great purchase by Apple. Shutting down Android's use of the technology was a logical first step after the acquisition.
I don't come to that conclusion at all, at least not based on this article, but it might be better that way.
Google has a "tool" (app) that lets' you map indoor spaces and upload it to Google maps, I see this as probably Apple's tool to do the same thing (it can only be than Google's), or ... integrate it into maps if that's possible.
The big problem I see with integration is that a user would be "mapping" just by walking around, so that will cue the privacy advocates to scream blue murder and shut the whole thing down. For that reason I think a stand alone tool might be the way they go.
That would be interesting if Apple did anonymized indoor location data like they did with their anonymized outdoor location data. I just hope there isn't a big stink like last time for anonymized data you can opt out of.
PS: I hit my head on the bathroom sink while standing on the toilet to hang a clock. When I came to I had a premonition about an Apple event a week in the future.
NAB is April 6 - 11 in Las Vegas. A new FCPX and Mac Pro are due and could drop then, or slightly before...
P.S. You must have a really high sink (or low toilet)
P.P.S. How can you tell time while seated (or need to know the time while standing)?
P.P.P.S an iWatch would solve [most] all your problems
Just watched a Youtube video about the wifiSLAM technology. This is a great purchase by Apple. Shutting down Android's use of the technology was a logical first step after the acquisition.
It is pretty dry but about half way through it starts to get interesting as they describe how they can take advantage of seemingly-useless information around you to calculate your location using a variety of sources like wi-fi signal strength, accelerometer, gyroscope and even the magnetometer.
It is pretty dry but about half way through it starts to get interesting as they describe how they can take advantage of seemingly-useless information around you to calculate your location using a variety of sources like wi-fi signal strength, accelerometer, gyroscope and even the magnetometer.
The one Dick linked yesterday then. Almost unwatchable unless you're reee-ally interested in it. The official videos were pulled recently.
It is pretty dry but about half way through it starts to get interesting as they describe how they can take advantage of seemingly-useless information around you to calculate your location using a variety of sources like wi-fi signal strength, accelerometer, gyroscope and even the magnetometer.
There's also a few whitepapers describing how it would work, altho not specific to WiFiSLAM. This is one of them that's pretty thorough. For this one they used an Android phone but that's not necessary to the implementation. There's also papers from Microsoft and others.
Perhaps, but Apple has chosen not to acquire or provide any of their own data in Apple Maps but instead gets all their outdoor data from third party vendors. Why do you think they would just now be interested in owning location data for indoor maps? I am not all that impressed with the WiFiSLAM process of having to obtain and upload a floor plan. Floor plans change, stores open and close in malls, wifi hot spots change, or are replaced with stronger signals, you have to select the floor of the building manually. This just doesn't seem like an Apple "just works" type of technology.
Apple used to get GPS location data for the first couple of iPhones from Skyhook. Then it accumulated the information itself. Worth noting that Skyhook is suing Google for interference of contract, and misappropriating its data. It also initially used a third parties music software to integrate with iPods on Windows.
Just because Apple is relying on third party data now doesn't mean it always will.
It's a snub to Android because WiFiSLAM had an android SDK and now they won't. Up until it's sale it was android only (after iOS5) save for the unofficial iOS Jailbreaking that allowed it to work. It's a snub to android because devs had the option to write WiFiSLAM into their apps and now it's gone.
It is not available to 3rd-party developers, but it is available to Apple developers. There are privacy and security implications with this capability. I am sure that Apple would want to sanitize it, like Location Services, before making the API available.
Apple may choose, instead, to offer it as a System Service ala Siri and Maps.
Perhaps, but Apple has chosen not to acquire or provide any of their own data in Apple Maps but instead gets all their outdoor data from third party vendors. Why do you think they would just now be interested in owning location data for indoor maps? I am not all that impressed with the WiFiSLAM process of having to obtain and upload a floor plan. Floor plans change, stores open and close in malls, wifi hot spots change, or are replaced with stronger signals, you have to select the floor of the building manually. This just doesn't seem like an Apple "just works" type of technology.
We don't know what Apple is doing with the PlaceBase/PushPin Mapping company they bought -- but, likely, it was not for map generation. One of the important assets, AIR, is the contractual access to lots of demographic data. AFAICT, the following site uses PlaceBase/PushPin as a backend for the services it provides.
If you watch the very end of that difficult and long video... they touch on several things:
The store, or building, or floor can upload a floor plan -- Apple does not have to "obtain the floor plan" or otherwise be involved in this process, other than an upload app and a Server (iCloud). The floor plan does not need to be in any specific format (just displayable).
Floorplans (and product placment within stores) do change -- as do spreadsheets, charts keynote preso's -- they are easy to upload/save.
WiFi hotspots do change and are replaced with stronger (or weaker and additional signals) -- during the day or over time. But WiFiSlam uses an amalgamation of all the "noise" in a spot to fingerprint that location. Apparently, based on probability, it can identify where you are (and what floor) within 8.2 feet.
They discussed using magnetic field and camera data for the spot -- to refine the accuracy of the fingerprint. Then the mobile device movement (location) can be determined on the device, alone, with no access to any WiFi, Cell, GPS... Just using the compass, accelerometer, magnometer and (optionally) the camera.
The technology can generate an unique path segment through a building by someone traversing that segment. Once done, another path segment generated by anyone else traversing any part of the first path segment is recognized -- and the 2 path segments are combined, ad infinitum... kind of like DNA matching.
They briefly discussed using the path generation capability (maybe crowd sourced) to be able to determine the layout with out a floor plan -- many paths stop at point A, and don't go beyond in a straight line -- means that there is a good probability that there is a wall or some other barrier (prison bars) beyond point A. They showed how this could be used determine where the halls, doors and classrooms were in a university building.
Look at it this way -- Each 8.2 foot cell within a building (regardless of floor) has an unique "noise fingerprint" (WiFi, radio/TV/cell/magnetic waves, etc.). Your mobile device can detect and gather the noise (and possibly generate the fingerprint). Then send a short query (by whatever means are available) to an Apple server. The Apple server could identify the fingerprint and respond with:
where you are
where you are likely to go (the paths available to you)
the path traversal DNA
So, you now can traverse the paths and monitor your location without involving the servers or being tracked (unless you want to be). Should you approach any extremity of your traversal DNA, the mobile device could ask you (or automatically) update the 3 steps above.
Look at it this way -- Each 8.2 foot cell within a building (regardless of floor) has an unique "noise fingerprint" (WiFi, radio/TV/cell/magnetic waves, etc.). Your mobile device can detect and gather the noise (and possibly generate the fingerprint).
Quick question: What sensors does the iPhone have to detect radio, TV and magnetic waves?
The thing about the floor plan. Apple would never allow all different odd ball poorly drawn diagrams to be displayed. They would all have to match. They would also have to be validated and official.
This is what I was thinking when I first heard about the technology, of course it turned out not to be the case.
I thought of Apple partnering with building management to install lots of specifically designed WiFi hotspots throughout the public buildings at precisely identified coordinates. That way they could be used for determining location very accurately. I imagined this to work sort of like street view where Google sends an official data acquisition team to the location. I would love to see Apple take responsibility for their own map data, keep it up to date and have full control over it.
As this WiFiSlam technology is now being revealed, I like it less every time I read more detail about it.
I wish that Apple would spend some of their cash to start building out city wide WiFi networks that were free and only available for Apple devices. That way we really could cut the cord as you wouldn't even need a cable carrier for broadband.
Look at it this way -- Each 8.2 foot cell within a building (regardless of floor) has an unique "noise fingerprint" (WiFi, radio/TV/cell/magnetic waves, etc.). Your mobile device can detect and gather the noise (and possibly generate the fingerprint).
Quick question: What sensors does the iPhone have to detect radio, TV and magnetic waves?
The thing about the floor plan. Apple would never allow all different odd ball poorly drawn diagrams to be displayed. They would all have to match. They would also have to be validated and official.
This is what I was thinking when I first heard about the technology, of course it turned out not to be the case.
I thought of Apple partnering with building management to install lots of specifically designed WiFi hotspots throughout the public buildings at precisely identified coordinates. That way they could be used for determining location very accurately. I imagined this to work sort of like street view where Google sends an official data acquisition team to the location. I would love to see Apple take responsibility for their own map data, keep it up to date and have full control over it.
As this WiFiSlam technology is now being revealed, I like it less every time I read more detail about it.
I wish that Apple would spend some of their cash to start building out city wide WiFi networks that were free and only available for Apple devices. That way we really could cut the cord as you wouldn't even need a cable carrier for broadband.
My first reaction was to be flippant... If Wi-Fi is the answer – what was the question?
However, I share your desire for precise, detailed and consistent mapping -- whether in or out of doors.
Stepping back, consider what Apple would have to own, develop and provide to meet that desire. Apple is behind other mapping services (years in the minds of many). When the current front runner's maps were first introduced, they were often ridiculed as Apple Maps are now.
Today, there is a growing competition to provide indoor mapping capability. We may be in a situation where "what is good enough" and how "fast can you develop it" are the primary issues.
I do believe that Apple should use this technology on a best effort ASAP basis.
Comments
This is an interesting purchase considering Apple hasn't made some other arguably more important purchases:
Transit directions
Street Level views
I've used more than one iPhone app that shows a satellite map of the property instead of a map of the stores and restaurants inside the building. The Mandalay Bay app for example. Completely useless for finding the coffee shop. It would be more useful to simply show a static graphic of the floorplan. The WiFiSLAM technology could fix that.
Nonsense. You're using that as a reason why Apple wouldn't incorporate WiFi into Maps? Apple sets the rules - they can easily choose to use WiFi if they wish.
They do not allow third parties to do so, I believe, but that won't affect them.
The real problem, of course, is that 10,000 bloggers will start talking about Apple violating everyone's privacy by using WiFi signals to localize people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
Perhaps, but Apple has chosen not to acquire or provide any of their own data in Apple Maps but instead gets all their outdoor data from third party vendors. Why do you think they would just now be interested in owning location data for indoor maps? I am not all that impressed with the WiFiSLAM process of having to obtain and upload a floor plan. Floor plans change, stores open and close in malls, wifi hot spots change, or are replaced with stronger signals, you have to select the floor of the building manually. This just doesn't seem like an Apple "just works" type of technology.
Agreed. Apple just hasn't proven themselves yet as being able to deliver on mapping. But perhaps this purchase indicates a commitment. I would definitely use indoor mapping if it was based on accurate, up-to-date information. The question is how do they hope to get this? It's one thing to be able to determine where you are in a building by scanning wifi access points. It's a whole different thing to keep up with changing storefronts in a mall or the layout of a temporary trade show.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
Nonsense. You're using that as a reason why Apple wouldn't incorporate WiFi into Maps? Apple sets the rules - they can easily choose to use WiFi if they wish.
They do not allow third parties to do so, I believe, but that won't affect them.
The real problem, of course, is that 10,000 bloggers will start talking about Apple violating everyone's privacy by using WiFi signals to localize people.
Right. But hopefully Apple has learned their lesson when they had to put out this fire the first time and be sure to not capture the data permanently locally or on their servers.
I just hope they don't pull what they did with transit in their Maps app. There is obviously demand for wifi scanning for location purposes. Apple could just use this tech to create an API for developers to include in their own apps instead of actually incorporating it into their mapping application. Then I'd need a separate app for every mall I visit or show I attend.
After all, while private property is an essential basis of modern society, "the public good" is the basis for any society, and "fatal embrace" is a clear damage to said society...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton
Neil Hughes couldn't think of a better way to inject "Google" or "Samsung" into the article for the troll bait value.
I rarely defend Ai per se, but I think it was rightly said. This _was_ imho an useful Google-pawn that they just lost.
A snub is: °A deliberate affront or slight.
"I hope the people we couldn't invite don't see it as a snub."
So, how is Apple purchasing a company and then using the tech they bought solely for themselves a snub?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee
I don't come to that conclusion at all, at least not based on this article, but it might be better that way.
Google has a "tool" (app) that lets' you map indoor spaces and upload it to Google maps, I see this as probably Apple's tool to do the same thing (it can only be than Google's), or ... integrate it into maps if that's possible.
The big problem I see with integration is that a user would be "mapping" just by walking around, so that will cue the privacy advocates to scream blue murder and shut the whole thing down. For that reason I think a stand alone tool might be the way they go.
That would be interesting if Apple did anonymized indoor location data like they did with their anonymized outdoor location data. I just hope there isn't a big stink like last time for anonymized data you can opt out of.
PS: I hit my head on the bathroom sink while standing on the toilet to hang a clock. When I came to I had a premonition about an Apple event a week in the future.
NAB is April 6 - 11 in Las Vegas. A new FCPX and Mac Pro are due and could drop then, or slightly before...
P.S. You must have a really high sink (or low toilet)
P.P.S. How can you tell time while seated (or need to know the time while standing)?
P.P.P.S an iWatch would solve [most] all your problems
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
Because the technique they used for scanning WiFi is not allowed on iOS
Once Apple buys a company the technology is incorporated into iOS. Rules for third-party software don't apply anymore.
Link to video?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
Link to video?
It is pretty dry but about half way through it starts to get interesting as they describe how they can take advantage of seemingly-useless information around you to calculate your location using a variety of sources like wi-fi signal strength, accelerometer, gyroscope and even the magnetometer.
The one Dick linked yesterday then. Almost unwatchable unless you're reee-ally interested in it. The official videos were pulled recently.
There's also a few whitepapers describing how it would work, altho not specific to WiFiSLAM. This is one of them that's pretty thorough. For this one they used an Android phone but that's not necessary to the implementation. There's also papers from Microsoft and others.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CEYQFjAC&url=http://hkr.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:475619/FULLTEXT02&ei=WKlQUZaUBYqmqwGqiIAY&usg=AFQjCNHAPre6s5CjVE2_dShmjzi8Ylgotw&sig2=5R_s9aKC3s-OucvJzzEqXg&bvm=bv.44158598,d.b2U
Apple used to get GPS location data for the first couple of iPhones from Skyhook. Then it accumulated the information itself. Worth noting that Skyhook is suing Google for interference of contract, and misappropriating its data. It also initially used a third parties music software to integrate with iPods on Windows.
Just because Apple is relying on third party data now doesn't mean it always will.
Quote:
Originally Posted by saarek
In what way is this a snub to google?
It's a snub to Android because WiFiSLAM had an android SDK and now they won't. Up until it's sale it was android only (after iOS5) save for the unofficial iOS Jailbreaking that allowed it to work. It's a snub to android because devs had the option to write WiFiSLAM into their apps and now it's gone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum
It is not available to 3rd-party developers, but it is available to Apple developers. There are privacy and security implications with this capability. I am sure that Apple would want to sanitize it, like Location Services, before making the API available.
Apple may choose, instead, to offer it as a System Service ala Siri and Maps.
Perhaps, but Apple has chosen not to acquire or provide any of their own data in Apple Maps but instead gets all their outdoor data from third party vendors. Why do you think they would just now be interested in owning location data for indoor maps? I am not all that impressed with the WiFiSLAM process of having to obtain and upload a floor plan. Floor plans change, stores open and close in malls, wifi hot spots change, or are replaced with stronger signals, you have to select the floor of the building manually. This just doesn't seem like an Apple "just works" type of technology.
We don't know what Apple is doing with the PlaceBase/PushPin Mapping company they bought -- but, likely, it was not for map generation. One of the important assets, AIR, is the contractual access to lots of demographic data. AFAICT, the following site uses PlaceBase/PushPin as a backend for the services it provides.
http://www.policymap.com/
If you watch the very end of that difficult and long video... they touch on several things:
The store, or building, or floor can upload a floor plan -- Apple does not have to "obtain the floor plan" or otherwise be involved in this process, other than an upload app and a Server (iCloud). The floor plan does not need to be in any specific format (just displayable).
Floorplans (and product placment within stores) do change -- as do spreadsheets, charts keynote preso's -- they are easy to upload/save.
WiFi hotspots do change and are replaced with stronger (or weaker and additional signals) -- during the day or over time. But WiFiSlam uses an amalgamation of all the "noise" in a spot to fingerprint that location. Apparently, based on probability, it can identify where you are (and what floor) within 8.2 feet.
They discussed using magnetic field and camera data for the spot -- to refine the accuracy of the fingerprint. Then the mobile device movement (location) can be determined on the device, alone, with no access to any WiFi, Cell, GPS... Just using the compass, accelerometer, magnometer and (optionally) the camera.
The technology can generate an unique path segment through a building by someone traversing that segment. Once done, another path segment generated by anyone else traversing any part of the first path segment is recognized -- and the 2 path segments are combined, ad infinitum... kind of like DNA matching.
They briefly discussed using the path generation capability (maybe crowd sourced) to be able to determine the layout with out a floor plan -- many paths stop at point A, and don't go beyond in a straight line -- means that there is a good probability that there is a wall or some other barrier (prison bars) beyond point A. They showed how this could be used determine where the halls, doors and classrooms were in a university building.
Look at it this way -- Each 8.2 foot cell within a building (regardless of floor) has an unique "noise fingerprint" (WiFi, radio/TV/cell/magnetic waves, etc.). Your mobile device can detect and gather the noise (and possibly generate the fingerprint). Then send a short query (by whatever means are available) to an Apple server. The Apple server could identify the fingerprint and respond with:
where you are
where you are likely to go (the paths available to you)
the path traversal DNA
So, you now can traverse the paths and monitor your location without involving the servers or being tracked (unless you want to be). Should you approach any extremity of your traversal DNA, the mobile device could ask you (or automatically) update the 3 steps above.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum
Look at it this way -- Each 8.2 foot cell within a building (regardless of floor) has an unique "noise fingerprint" (WiFi, radio/TV/cell/magnetic waves, etc.). Your mobile device can detect and gather the noise (and possibly generate the fingerprint).
Quick question: What sensors does the iPhone have to detect radio, TV and magnetic waves?
The thing about the floor plan. Apple would never allow all different odd ball poorly drawn diagrams to be displayed. They would all have to match. They would also have to be validated and official.
This is what I was thinking when I first heard about the technology, of course it turned out not to be the case.
I thought of Apple partnering with building management to install lots of specifically designed WiFi hotspots throughout the public buildings at precisely identified coordinates. That way they could be used for determining location very accurately. I imagined this to work sort of like street view where Google sends an official data acquisition team to the location. I would love to see Apple take responsibility for their own map data, keep it up to date and have full control over it.
As this WiFiSlam technology is now being revealed, I like it less every time I read more detail about it.
I wish that Apple would spend some of their cash to start building out city wide WiFi networks that were free and only available for Apple devices. That way we really could cut the cord as you wouldn't even need a cable carrier for broadband.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum
Look at it this way -- Each 8.2 foot cell within a building (regardless of floor) has an unique "noise fingerprint" (WiFi, radio/TV/cell/magnetic waves, etc.). Your mobile device can detect and gather the noise (and possibly generate the fingerprint).
Quick question: What sensors does the iPhone have to detect radio, TV and magnetic waves?
The thing about the floor plan. Apple would never allow all different odd ball poorly drawn diagrams to be displayed. They would all have to match. They would also have to be validated and official.
This is what I was thinking when I first heard about the technology, of course it turned out not to be the case.
I thought of Apple partnering with building management to install lots of specifically designed WiFi hotspots throughout the public buildings at precisely identified coordinates. That way they could be used for determining location very accurately. I imagined this to work sort of like street view where Google sends an official data acquisition team to the location. I would love to see Apple take responsibility for their own map data, keep it up to date and have full control over it.
As this WiFiSlam technology is now being revealed, I like it less every time I read more detail about it.
I wish that Apple would spend some of their cash to start building out city wide WiFi networks that were free and only available for Apple devices. That way we really could cut the cord as you wouldn't even need a cable carrier for broadband.
My first reaction was to be flippant... If Wi-Fi is the answer – what was the question?
However, I share your desire for precise, detailed and consistent mapping -- whether in or out of doors.
Stepping back, consider what Apple would have to own, develop and provide to meet that desire. Apple is behind other mapping services (years in the minds of many). When the current front runner's maps were first introduced, they were often ridiculed as Apple Maps are now.
Today, there is a growing competition to provide indoor mapping capability. We may be in a situation where "what is good enough" and how "fast can you develop it" are the primary issues.
I do believe that Apple should use this technology on a best effort ASAP basis.