Kay's analogy of a computer as being similar to a piano in a classroom has a ring of truth. I have been in many classrooms where typically there is a couple of computers sitting in the corner gathering dust and with little to none educational use and purpose.
Thats an issue of training.
If the teacher doesn't know how to play piano or even read music then that piano all just get dusty too.
Like it or not, he is doing pretty interesting stuff.
Aha! So that's why he mentioned Etoys, which almost nobody has heard about!
And that horrible website is his? The Dude shouldn't be speaking about UIs, with a really cheap website that looks like it was made by somebody with zero sense of design or skill. Whoever OK'ed that website is not qualified to speak about user interfaces.
So his gripes about the iPad are all personal grievances, and that further explains his gripes and his illogical viewpoints about the iPad, no matter how illegitimate they might be.
Well said, but Mr. Kay should have been more specific, regardless of his history. I'm retired now but once had a boss who criticized me often. He was relentless, but specific and provided examples. He was a military fighter pilot who also received constant denunciation from a former senior officer. One day, my former boss confided that he wouldn't waste his time criticizing others who lacked the talent, drive, and potential. I was humbled, but never forgot his words and the confidence he inspired.
I believe that criticism and alternate points of view are welcome, but no matter who you are or whatever the legacy, your are ripe for rebuttal if your claims are nebulous and unsupported. I have enjoyed the use of Apple products going on 4 years now. As long as there is valid and constructive criticism, and hose who are willing to listen, Cupertino will continue to be successful.
Yes! I linked to the original article form the AI Article:
For somebody who is supposed to be a "computing pioneer", he seems rather close minded and old fashioned.
The iPad and iOS devices have opened up computing to whole new groups of people, people who would never even interact with computers before. iOS devices are being used by everybody from babies to senior citizens, groups who would never even go near a computer in the past.
And one of the reasons he gives for the iPad being poor is that people can't download an Etoy?
At first I thought to myself, what the hell is an Etoy, so I quickly found out what it was.
This is one of the most amateurish sites that I've ever seen, and it looks like it hasn't been updated in many years. Seriously, who gives a shit about Etoys? Screw Etoys.
Apple with the iPad and iPhone goes even further and does not allow children to download an Etoy made by another child somewhere in the world. This could not be farther from the original intentions of the entire ARPA-IPTO/PARC community in the ’60s and ’70s.
And who gives a shit about what the original intentions of what some group thought back in the 60's in the 70's, probably wacked out of their minds on LSD? If they don't like it, let them make their own device. If somebody doesn't like the state of current computing, then go change it, make your own. Don't sit around reminiscing about ancient times and whining about the present, because it only makes somebody look real old and extremely out of touch.
If the site were updated to an HTML based web app, then it would work and would have worked on an iPhone in 2007.
Maybe Kay should take off his blinkers.
Connected devices controlling servers running anything you could possibly want remotely, is what Kay has overlooked.
What most of you don't realize is that he was the original creator of the Internet. Just about everything all of you do, including get on a forum like this is possible because of his tireless work & contributions. Even your daily breakfast was influenced by his early work...he invented the toaster. Prior to that he invented the electrical outlets that modern homes use today.
Sorry all you little whiners, but Alan Kay was visionary before Steve Jobs even thought about a carrot only diet.
And Alan Kay is 100% correct - the iPad is not designed for creation and sharing, it's oriented for consumption. It really is crippled.
And I have been buying Apple products since 1982 when I got my Apple II.
When you look at Kay's contributions to computer design, user interfaces, and object oriented programming, he set the groundwork for what most Apple technology is based on today.
Who said that he hasn't accomplished a lot in the past? Ok, his past achievements are great. Now, let's talk about the present and his current statements.
Instead of avoiding the topic in a pathetic and amateurish attempt at deflecting away from legitimate criticism, why don't the people who agree with him make an argument as to why the iPad UI qualifies as 'poor', and also what is their idea of a 'good' UI.
For somebody who is supposed to be a "computing pioneer", he seems rather close minded and old fashioned.
The iPad and iOS devices have opened up computing to whole new groups of people, people who would never even interact with computers before. iOS devices are being used by everybody from babies to senior citizens, groups who would never even go near a computer in the past.
And one of the reasons he gives for the iPad being poor is that people can't download an Etoy?
At first I thought to myself, what the hell is an Etoy, so I quickly found out what it was.
This is one of the most amateurish sites that I've ever seen, and it looks like it hasn't been updated in many years. Seriously, who gives a shit about Etoys? Screw Etoys.
Apple with the iPad and iPhone goes even further and does not allow children to download an Etoy made by another child somewhere in the world. This could not be farther from the original intentions of the entire ARPA-IPTO/PARC community in the ’60s and ’70s.
And who gives a shit about what the original intentions of what some group thought back in the 60's in the 70's, probably wacked out of their minds on LSD? If they don't like it, let them make their own device. If somebody doesn't like the state of current computing, then go change it, make your own. Don't sit around reminiscing about ancient times and whining about the present, because it only makes somebody look real old and extremely out of touch.
Or young and naive. Getting to see both sides of that coin.
[" url="/t/156798/computing-pioneer-alan-kay-calls-apples-ipad-user-interface-poor#post_2304418"]
And one of the reasons he gives for the iPad being poor is that people can't download an Etoy?
At first I thought to myself, what the hell is an Etoy, so I quickly found out what it was.
This is one of the most amateurish sites that I've ever seen, and it looks like it hasn't been updated in many years. Seriously, who gives a shit about Etoys? Screw Etoys.
I thought that project was all about motivating an teaching kids, giving them a way to be creative etc.
all of which can be done, better than their way, with the current apps
so is he really about the children or about his ego in wanting folks to agree with him etc
I believe it really is about the children... and assisting them to be creative by being creative... He used "authoring" while "consuming" as an example...
Why shouldn't you be able to do that... In some ways, you can with apps by Apple, Adobe, and Avid... like iMovie. There even is an app that lets you make cuts and color corrections, from your iPad to Final Cut Pro X running on your Mac.
While there are some limitations to the multitouch UI on the iPad -- there are many things, if implemented properly, would let you "get your hands" dirty.
I don't do it much any more, but when I first started using the iPad -- I would go back to the comfortable mouse/kb interface on the iMac... I would notice something I wanted to move -- so I'd reach up to the iMac screen trying to move it with my finger (then blush, and look around to see if anyone was watching).
I gotta' admit that the iPad does pan and zoom better than any UI I've seen. And those video clips in events (or bins) are just begging to be finger-dargged to the timeline of the video editor.
But, bar none -- the best productivity app in the iPad is:
[VIDEO]
it's not for everyone -- but it gives "a life" to those who need it.
Who said that he hasn't accomplished a lot in the past? Ok, his past achievements are great. Now, let's talk about the present and his current statements.
Instead of avoiding the topic in a pathetic and amateurish attempt at deflecting away from legitimate criticism, why don't the people who agree with him make an argument as to why the iPad UI qualifies as 'poor', and also what is their idea of a 'good' UI.
How many people here are qualified to agree or disagree?
To choose either position, one has to ponder the issue at length, try various alternatives, become acquainted with history, present and future (i.e. technology in development) of computing in order to offer a learned opinion. Regardless of background, who has spent that kind of time doing these activities? Oh yeah, that would be Alan Kay.
He is one of the pioneers of the industry, a computer scientist, inventor, mathematician, innovator. He invented the object oriented programming and is the architect of the modern overlapping windowing graphical user interface (GUI). He even worked at Apple in the early days.
If people here achieved 1% of what he did, world would be a better place.
This is AI. The last thing people want around here is perspective ;-)
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by flippysc
Kay's analogy of a computer as being similar to a piano in a classroom has a ring of truth. I have been in many classrooms where typically there is a couple of computers sitting in the corner gathering dust and with little to none educational use and purpose.
Thats an issue of training.
If the teacher doesn't know how to play piano or even read music then that piano all just get dusty too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by igriv
Would you care to share some of these incredible things with us?
Ironic. You say just a message that 'we' should go looking for where Kay spells out his constructive points.
And yet you want someone to hand you the 'more information' from their comment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by igriv
And who the **** are you to dump on him?
Here is his current project:
http://www.squeakland.org/
Like it or not, he is doing pretty interesting stuff.
Aha! So that's why he mentioned Etoys, which almost nobody has heard about!
And that horrible website is his? The Dude shouldn't be speaking about UIs, with a really cheap website that looks like it was made by somebody with zero sense of design or skill. Whoever OK'ed that website is not qualified to speak about user interfaces.
So his gripes about the iPad are all personal grievances, and that further explains his gripes and his illogical viewpoints about the iPad, no matter how illegitimate they might be.
deleted
Yes! I linked to the original article form the AI Article:
http://techland.time.com/2013/04/02/an-interview-with-computing-pioneer-alan-kay/
IMO, it was a very poor job of journalism -- and a very poor interview.
The interviewer would "Tell a loaded Question" to Kay (I assume, hoping to get a controversial response).
Kay would respond with a reasonably concise statement -- not a long-winded diatribe filled with details.
The interviewer would move on and "Tell another Question"... no follow to the original question, no "why" or "what, specifically"... just move on.
I suspect that Kay answered the way he did expecting follow-up questions -- and had answers at the ready (I would be floored, if he didm't).
But, no just move on with the interviewer's "Told Question" assuming more weight than it was worth.
Reminds me of the technique used by certain TV "journalists",
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][
For somebody who is supposed to be a "computing pioneer", he seems rather close minded and old fashioned.
The iPad and iOS devices have opened up computing to whole new groups of people, people who would never even interact with computers before. iOS devices are being used by everybody from babies to senior citizens, groups who would never even go near a computer in the past.
And one of the reasons he gives for the iPad being poor is that people can't download an Etoy?
At first I thought to myself, what the hell is an Etoy, so I quickly found out what it was.
This is one of the most amateurish sites that I've ever seen, and it looks like it hasn't been updated in many years. Seriously, who gives a shit about Etoys? Screw Etoys.
http://www.squeakland.org/
Apple with the iPad and iPhone goes even further and does not allow children to download an Etoy made by another child somewhere in the world. This could not be farther from the original intentions of the entire ARPA-IPTO/PARC community in the ’60s and ’70s.
And who gives a shit about what the original intentions of what some group thought back in the 60's in the 70's, probably wacked out of their minds on LSD? If they don't like it, let them make their own device. If somebody doesn't like the state of current computing, then go change it, make your own. Don't sit around reminiscing about ancient times and whining about the present, because it only makes somebody look real old and extremely out of touch.
If the site were updated to an HTML based web app, then it would work and would have worked on an iPhone in 2007.
Maybe Kay should take off his blinkers.
Connected devices controlling servers running anything you could possibly want remotely, is what Kay has overlooked.
Sorry all you little whiners, but Alan Kay was visionary before Steve Jobs even thought about a carrot only diet.
And Alan Kay is 100% correct - the iPad is not designed for creation and sharing, it's oriented for consumption. It really is crippled.
And I have been buying Apple products since 1982 when I got my Apple II.
When you look at Kay's contributions to computer design, user interfaces, and object oriented programming, he set the groundwork for what most Apple technology is based on today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by skleiniv
What most of you don't realize is that he was the original creator of the Internet.
Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.
That was Al Gore.
All I see are ridiculous strawmen.
Who said that he hasn't accomplished a lot in the past? Ok, his past achievements are great. Now, let's talk about the present and his current statements.
Instead of avoiding the topic in a pathetic and amateurish attempt at deflecting away from legitimate criticism, why don't the people who agree with him make an argument as to why the iPad UI qualifies as 'poor', and also what is their idea of a 'good' UI.
Quote:
Originally Posted by msimpson
And I have been buying Apple products since 1982 when I got my Apple II.
Groan....
McDonalds and Burger King sell a lot of burgers...
Wrong, Wrong, Wrong.
That's George Bush.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram
Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.
That was Al Gore.
Or young and naive. Getting to see both sides of that coin.
I believe it really is about the children... and assisting them to be creative by being creative... He used "authoring" while "consuming" as an example...
Why shouldn't you be able to do that... In some ways, you can with apps by Apple, Adobe, and Avid... like iMovie. There even is an app that lets you make cuts and color corrections, from your iPad to Final Cut Pro X running on your Mac.
While there are some limitations to the multitouch UI on the iPad -- there are many things, if implemented properly, would let you "get your hands" dirty.
I don't do it much any more, but when I first started using the iPad -- I would go back to the comfortable mouse/kb interface on the iMac... I would notice something I wanted to move -- so I'd reach up to the iMac screen trying to move it with my finger (then blush, and look around to see if anyone was watching).
I gotta' admit that the iPad does pan and zoom better than any UI I've seen. And those video clips in events (or bins) are just begging to be finger-dargged to the timeline of the video editor.
But, bar none -- the best productivity app in the iPad is:
[VIDEO]
it's not for everyone -- but it gives "a life" to those who need it.
deleted
I agree with Alan, the user interface is poor. But it is poor in the same way that capitalism is poor. ie, everything else is even worse.
I suspected that you might....
How many people here are qualified to agree or disagree?
To choose either position, one has to ponder the issue at length, try various alternatives, become acquainted with history, present and future (i.e. technology in development) of computing in order to offer a learned opinion. Regardless of background, who has spent that kind of time doing these activities? Oh yeah, that would be Alan Kay.
LOL!
...no [other] man is an @Ireland