Nothing betrays the ignorance of the membership here more than this thread.
To say that Alan Kay is on the same level as Woz?
To say that he has not done anything in decades?
To say that he should keep his mouth shut?
To criticize him for not having shipped the Dynabook?
If you know shit about the history of computing, then you should not spout shit.
If there was no Alan Kay, there would be no Mac, no Objective C, no iPad or iPhone. Apple would be a footnote today.
You lot of shit-for-brains are so defensive about Apple that you will spew ignorant criticism about anyone to defend a company that doesn't need your ineffectual, flaccid defending.
If you know anything about Alan Kay, you would know why he is picking on the iPad. It is because he cares Apple. It is because the iPad is the only thing close enough to realizing the full vision of Dynabook, and hence the only one worth criticizing.
If you know anything about Alan Kay, you would not say shit that he has done nothing in decades.
If Steve Jobs were alive today, he would not be angry. He would be proud, because the iPad is worthy of Kay's criticism.
Stop hyperventilating. The issue is not his legacy or his past contributions -- no one has questioned that. It whether he makes any sense at all in his current critique.
But they did criticize his legacy. According to these morons you call friends, he has done "nothing for decades". He is "another Woz".
Do they even understand that without Alan Kay, there would be no Mac, no iPad and possibly no Apple today? Woz's legacy is invisible in Apple's products today. But they ALL carry Alan Kay's inventions as DNA. ALL.
And this is just in the context of Apple. In a greater context, Alan Kay is computer science's version of Richard Feynman and even Einstein. If computer scientist could win Nobel Prize, he would. But he did win the Turing, not to mention various awards which are all many levels higher than the awards given to Woz.
This is like a group of bleacher drunks booing Mariano Rivera, or a group of housewives calling out Joe Montana as a loser, or a bunch of fat drunk slobs looking at the Vince Lombardi Trophy and wondering why it was named after a nobody. The ignorance here has never been as thick as today.
Get this straight, people: if you love your Mac, iPad or iPhone, you cannot diss Alan Kay. In doing so, you are not defending Apple, you're mocking it.
The same Alan Kay has another line that Steve Jobs liked to quote often: "The best way to predict the future is to invent it." Steve and Apple predicted, and invented, and delivered, and the world is a much much better place because their actions. Action is always louder than words, doesn't matter whose words it is. If Alan thinks his idea is better than Apple's, build it. Steve kept working on new ideas and products till his last days. If Steve lived till he was 72, I am sure he will still be working on new ideas every day.
And I think Alan should show some appreciation for what Apple and Steve did for him as well. Without Steve and Apple, who brought a lot of his ideas to fruition and to the world, Alan's ideas, visions, prototypes will probably be long dead, forgotten, along with Xerox, dumped into the trash bin of history. And Steve had a saying that hardly anyone can keep their creativity after their 30s. If all Alan Kay today can do is just talk and live his old dreams, then move aside. Let Apple change the world.
Or instead should we plug our ears and close our eyes while making a blabbering noise to drown out the unpleasant news?
There is no unpleasant news. There is only the opinion of one person, and guess what, most intelligent people are capable of thinking for themselves and making up their own minds. I, like many others here, have been using computers for a long time, and I've been exposed to a lot of different UI changes throughout the years. I would definitely not describe the iPad UI as 'poor', and I don't rely on other people's opinion to tell me what is good or not. I have two perfectly functioning eyes, and I can easily see for myself what is good or not.
There is nothing specific really offered in the criticism. If the iPad user interface is 'poor', then what exactly makes it poor?
All I see here is one man's vague opinion, and then I see the usual suspects (and Fandroid imposters) who jump in to defend that person, while attacking real Apple users who are quick to point out the flaws in the person's argument.
When WOZ opens his mouth next week or next month and makes another incredibly stupid statement, like he is known for doing, I expect the same characters to be jumping in on that thread to defend those ridiculous statements, while attacking Apple and Apple users, because that is why they are here.
Yeah, Mr. Kay is just blowing his own opinionated air towards everyone. I disagree strongly with him, but unlike him, I'll give details as to why his opinion is BS, and mine is right.
First, as at least one other forum member above has stated, iOS is much simpler than "mouse" computing, and therefore has opened up computers to many, many more people. For example, a few years ago, my 2 year old son was using an iPod Touch perfectly easily and on his own. Why?!? Because he understood intuitively how the system worked because it was so straightforward and simple. He only picked up how to handle a "mouse" computer at about 4.5 years old, and then with a lot of frustration and needing frequent help. I have some non-computer older friends who also were able to learn iOS device operation extremely quickly, whereas computers confuse them. I've heard stories like these above from countless friends of mine.
Mr. Kay can say that iPads suck all he wants, but the pervasive evidence above pretty much torpedoes his opinion as being worth much. If you can open up the power of computers to a wider range of people, including the communication, knowledge, and entertainment aspects that they possess, you're doing a good thing for the world.
Now, he might have something of a point that iPads/tablets are not great at Authoring content. But then again 1) they never claimed to be great authoring tools (although the communication aspect of them betrays that idea somewhat), and 2) they are claimed to be consumption devices (knowledge, books, internet, entertainment, etc.).
Second, Apple's creation of tablets was a very intelligent bet on how to compete with low-end PCs that don't have any margin/profit. They realized that probably a majority of low-end PCs are used for content consumption (games, internet, netflix, etc.), and not content creation. If you could provide a well-built, but relatively inexpensive, light, long battery life, hold-in-one hand with an operating system super easy to use tablet with a fantastic screen, at about the same price as those low-end PCs, and infuse it with a rich ecosystem (iTunes, AppStore, iCloud, etc.), and still make crazy profits with it, well . . . not only have you given your company a huge leg up (as low-end PC makers like Dell start to go out of business), but you've provided a superior and mobile experience to the end-user as well. Hell, with an iPad, it's now simple to sit in bed and get your morning news and e-mails while sipping your coffee--instead of waiting for the laptop that weighs 3 times as much to boot up, or trudging over to the study to sit at a desk to use my desktop.
Mr. Kay seems to have an extremely narrow view of things, and doesn't give details. Glad he wasn't in charge of Apple.
You are a bunch of Apple fanatics! You don't even know who Alan Kay is:
"In 1970, Kay joined Xerox Corporation's Palo Alto Research Center, PARC. In the 1970s he was one of the key members there to develop prototypes of networked workstations using the programming language Smalltalk. These inventions were later commercialized by Apple Computer in their Lisa and Macintosh computers.
Kay is one of the fathers of the idea of object-oriented programming, which he named, along with some colleagues at PARC and predecessors at the Norwegian Computing Center."
Ohh, so he was the idiot that helped develop a great interface but wouldn't share it with the world or have the business mind to profit from it or convince Xerox to implement it. Asking him for advice is like going back in time to 1984 to ask Steve Jobs what the next big thing is going to be today.
Ohh, so he was the idiot that helped develop a great interface but wouldn't share it with the world or have the business mind to profit from it or convince Xerox to implement it. Asking him for advice is like going back in time to 1984 to ask Steve Jobs what the next big thing is going to be today.
I don't think Kay's job at PARC had anything to do with profit or monetizing inventions. Nor do I think he has any interest in that sort of thing. He is a research scientist, a conceptualist. Selling product is not his concern.
a dude from Parc Xerox (that multibillion dollar earning division that sold hundreds of millions of consumer devices.... Nope )
yep, all these theoretical geniuses have all these wonderful ideas except they have no clue to actually MAKE a product for the masses - to make a product you need a product that you can manufacture and that people will BUY and you need to make money (no money no manufacturing, no marketing, no retail.... )
Ohh, so he was the idiot that helped develop a great interface but wouldn't share it with the world or have the business mind to profit from it or convince Xerox to implement it. Asking him for advice is like going back in time to 1984 to ask Steve Jobs what the next big thing is going to be today.
Idiot? Someone with shit for brains deigns to call one of geniuses of our time an idiot?
Without this idiot, you can't do what you do right now.
Without you, the world is a better place. To quote someone else here, "Be gone. Pronto."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davewrite
a dude from Parc Xerox (that multibillion dollar earning division that sold hundreds of millions of consumer devices.... Nope )
yep, all these theoretical geniuses have all these wonderful ideas except they have no clue to actually MAKE a product for the masses - to make a product you need a product that you can manufacture and that people will BUY and you need to make money (no money no manufacturing, no marketing, no retail.... )
Only a pea brain would imagine commercialization is the domain of a greater mind than that in which which germinate great ideas. Be gone. Pronto.
Well said, but Mr. Kay should have been more specific, regardless of his history. I'm retired now but once had a boss who criticized me often. He was relentless, but specific and provided examples. He was a military fighter pilot who also received constant denunciation from a former senior officer. One day, my former boss confided that he wouldn't waste his time criticizing others who lacked the talent, drive, and potential. I was humbled, but never forgot his words and the confidence he inspired.
I believe that criticism and alternate points of view are welcome, but no matter who you are or whatever the legacy, your are ripe for rebuttal if your claims are nebulous and unsupported. I have enjoyed the use of Apple products going on 4 years now. As long as there is valid and constructive criticism, and hose who are willing to listen, Cupertino will continue to be successful.
Alan Kay has interesting ideas, but he has a severe weakness along with his like-minded colleagues, apparent at Xerox PARC, and with his EToys and Squeak and Smalltalk platforms. They have little skills at productizing and stabilizing their platforms or ideas. Lack of business acumen, perhaps?
This is to say, that much of what he pushes is rough-edged research, new ideas that never get polished. Squeak (his Smalltalk platform) in in constant flux (or had been the last I checked). Reminds me of Woz vs Jobs. Woz, the tinkerer, the engineer, who could constantly see improvements, changes to make, while Jobs knew how to put enough polish on ideas to get the products out the door, then incrementally improve the ideas and get THEM out the door.
Asked if the Dynabook has not, in fact, been realized in the form of the notebook computer, tablet, and smartphone, Kay said he believes those devices largely miss the point. Apple's iPad ? and the wider computing environment, by extension ? falls short of the Dynabook's ideal, Kay says, since it lacks the capacity to enable "symmetric authoring and consuming."
I agree with this... there are many ways individuals learn... We've all been exposed to "Learn by doing". Have you ever experienced "Learn by teaching"? By that I mean you are teaching something or explaining something and someone asks a question (or your subconscious poses the question) -- and you provide an answer... then you say to yourself -- "I didn't know I knew that!"
The same thing can happen with any creative activity like "authoring"... You must lean forward and participate as opposed to lean back and observe... both are necessary.
One of my grandsons is hooked on the game MineCraft -- and very good at it. He doesn't realize it, but he is doing 3D CAD and 3D Drafting (for which he has no training or interest). Think of the possibilities if he could interactively author the "games" as well as play them.
Kay continued, calling Apple's restrictions on content creation and sharing on the iPad "mostly bogus," and saying that any potential security issues were the result of flaws in the OS. He also expressed disappointment in the progression of the human-computer interface since the development of the Graphical User Interface.
I kinda' agree with this too... the original iOS SDK had lots of flaws and security exposures -- so they closed it down. Also, I believe that Apple didn't know what it had -- and was reluctant to expose too much too soon -- in case it would prevent them from further development or exploitation -- and it could aid potential competitors.
This is where Kay's idealist view is at odds with the real world of making money...
Though, I believe that Kay would have no problem telling his opinion to Jobs -- and that Jobs would give the consideration it (and Kay) deserves.
...
[/quote]
Edit: AIR, Apple offered a free license of OS X or iOS (maybe both) as the OS for OLPC/OTPC (One Laptop Per Child / One Tablet Per Child).
Comments
Nothing betrays the ignorance of the membership here more than this thread.
To say that Alan Kay is on the same level as Woz?
To say that he has not done anything in decades?
To say that he should keep his mouth shut?
To criticize him for not having shipped the Dynabook?
If you know shit about the history of computing, then you should not spout shit.
If there was no Alan Kay, there would be no Mac, no Objective C, no iPad or iPhone. Apple would be a footnote today.
You lot of shit-for-brains are so defensive about Apple that you will spew ignorant criticism about anyone to defend a company that doesn't need your ineffectual, flaccid defending.
If you know anything about Alan Kay, you would know why he is picking on the iPad. It is because he cares Apple. It is because the iPad is the only thing close enough to realizing the full vision of Dynabook, and hence the only one worth criticizing.
If you know anything about Alan Kay, you would not say shit that he has done nothing in decades.
If Steve Jobs were alive today, he would not be angry. He would be proud, because the iPad is worthy of Kay's criticism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram
Wow. How's this helpful?!
Not helpful, I agree. But I am pissed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram
Stop hyperventilating. The issue is not his legacy or his past contributions -- no one has questioned that. It whether he makes any sense at all in his current critique.
But they did criticize his legacy. According to these morons you call friends, he has done "nothing for decades". He is "another Woz".
Do they even understand that without Alan Kay, there would be no Mac, no iPad and possibly no Apple today? Woz's legacy is invisible in Apple's products today. But they ALL carry Alan Kay's inventions as DNA. ALL.
And this is just in the context of Apple. In a greater context, Alan Kay is computer science's version of Richard Feynman and even Einstein. If computer scientist could win Nobel Prize, he would. But he did win the Turing, not to mention various awards which are all many levels higher than the awards given to Woz.
This is like a group of bleacher drunks booing Mariano Rivera, or a group of housewives calling out Joe Montana as a loser, or a bunch of fat drunk slobs looking at the Vince Lombardi Trophy and wondering why it was named after a nobody. The ignorance here has never been as thick as today.
Get this straight, people: if you love your Mac, iPad or iPhone, you cannot diss Alan Kay. In doing so, you are not defending Apple, you're mocking it.
Dear Alan:
http://gigaom.com/2012/02/03/satisfaction-survey-shows-why-apples-ipad-will-remain-on-top/
http://www.webpronews.com/ipad-kills-the-competition-in-customer-satisfaction-2012-06
Sincerely,
Reality
you apple fanfagg0ts are unbelievable.
BTW today is the iPad's birthday. Here is what some people thought of it: IPAD IS DOOMED http://www.businessinsider.com/these-people-said-the-ipad-was-doomed-2013-4
Plus the Osbourne 1 was unveiled today in 1981.
April 3 seems to be a good day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland
I think you're wrong.
Then why didn't he?
The same Alan Kay has another line that Steve Jobs liked to quote often: "The best way to predict the future is to invent it." Steve and Apple predicted, and invented, and delivered, and the world is a much much better place because their actions. Action is always louder than words, doesn't matter whose words it is. If Alan thinks his idea is better than Apple's, build it. Steve kept working on new ideas and products till his last days. If Steve lived till he was 72, I am sure he will still be working on new ideas every day.
And I think Alan should show some appreciation for what Apple and Steve did for him as well. Without Steve and Apple, who brought a lot of his ideas to fruition and to the world, Alan's ideas, visions, prototypes will probably be long dead, forgotten, along with Xerox, dumped into the trash bin of history. And Steve had a saying that hardly anyone can keep their creativity after their 30s. If all Alan Kay today can do is just talk and live his old dreams, then move aside. Let Apple change the world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRulez
Wow. Lots of vitriol of AI's enemy du jour.
How many of you who've criticized Kay know who he is?
An opinion is worth the logic and evidence it rests on, not the fame or prior accomplishments of the person who speaks it. Full stop.
Edit: But I agree...not much need for angry protests.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wakefinance
Or instead should we plug our ears and close our eyes while making a blabbering noise to drown out the unpleasant news?
There is no unpleasant news. There is only the opinion of one person, and guess what, most intelligent people are capable of thinking for themselves and making up their own minds. I, like many others here, have been using computers for a long time, and I've been exposed to a lot of different UI changes throughout the years. I would definitely not describe the iPad UI as 'poor', and I don't rely on other people's opinion to tell me what is good or not. I have two perfectly functioning eyes, and I can easily see for myself what is good or not.
There is nothing specific really offered in the criticism. If the iPad user interface is 'poor', then what exactly makes it poor?
All I see here is one man's vague opinion, and then I see the usual suspects (and Fandroid imposters) who jump in to defend that person, while attacking real Apple users who are quick to point out the flaws in the person's argument.
When WOZ opens his mouth next week or next month and makes another incredibly stupid statement, like he is known for doing, I expect the same characters to be jumping in on that thread to defend those ridiculous statements, while attacking Apple and Apple users, because that is why they are here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NIZZARD
you apple fanfagg0ts are unbelievable.
Stay classy.
Yeah, Mr. Kay is just blowing his own opinionated air towards everyone. I disagree strongly with him, but unlike him, I'll give details as to why his opinion is BS, and mine is right.
First, as at least one other forum member above has stated, iOS is much simpler than "mouse" computing, and therefore has opened up computers to many, many more people. For example, a few years ago, my 2 year old son was using an iPod Touch perfectly easily and on his own. Why?!? Because he understood intuitively how the system worked because it was so straightforward and simple. He only picked up how to handle a "mouse" computer at about 4.5 years old, and then with a lot of frustration and needing frequent help. I have some non-computer older friends who also were able to learn iOS device operation extremely quickly, whereas computers confuse them. I've heard stories like these above from countless friends of mine.
Mr. Kay can say that iPads suck all he wants, but the pervasive evidence above pretty much torpedoes his opinion as being worth much. If you can open up the power of computers to a wider range of people, including the communication, knowledge, and entertainment aspects that they possess, you're doing a good thing for the world.
Now, he might have something of a point that iPads/tablets are not great at Authoring content. But then again 1) they never claimed to be great authoring tools (although the communication aspect of them betrays that idea somewhat), and 2) they are claimed to be consumption devices (knowledge, books, internet, entertainment, etc.).
Second, Apple's creation of tablets was a very intelligent bet on how to compete with low-end PCs that don't have any margin/profit. They realized that probably a majority of low-end PCs are used for content consumption (games, internet, netflix, etc.), and not content creation. If you could provide a well-built, but relatively inexpensive, light, long battery life, hold-in-one hand with an operating system super easy to use tablet with a fantastic screen, at about the same price as those low-end PCs, and infuse it with a rich ecosystem (iTunes, AppStore, iCloud, etc.), and still make crazy profits with it, well . . . not only have you given your company a huge leg up (as low-end PC makers like Dell start to go out of business), but you've provided a superior and mobile experience to the end-user as well. Hell, with an iPad, it's now simple to sit in bed and get your morning news and e-mails while sipping your coffee--instead of waiting for the laptop that weighs 3 times as much to boot up, or trudging over to the study to sit at a desk to use my desktop.
Mr. Kay seems to have an extremely narrow view of things, and doesn't give details. Glad he wasn't in charge of Apple.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wigby
Ohh, so he was the idiot that helped develop a great interface but wouldn't share it with the world or have the business mind to profit from it or convince Xerox to implement it. Asking him for advice is like going back in time to 1984 to ask Steve Jobs what the next big thing is going to be today.
I don't think Kay's job at PARC had anything to do with profit or monetizing inventions. Nor do I think he has any interest in that sort of thing. He is a research scientist, a conceptualist. Selling product is not his concern.
yep, all these theoretical geniuses have all these wonderful ideas except they have no clue to actually MAKE a product for the masses - to make a product you need a product that you can manufacture and that people will BUY and you need to make money (no money no manufacturing, no marketing, no retail.... )
Quote:
Originally Posted by wigby
Ohh, so he was the idiot that helped develop a great interface but wouldn't share it with the world or have the business mind to profit from it or convince Xerox to implement it. Asking him for advice is like going back in time to 1984 to ask Steve Jobs what the next big thing is going to be today.
Idiot? Someone with shit for brains deigns to call one of geniuses of our time an idiot?
Without this idiot, you can't do what you do right now.
Without you, the world is a better place. To quote someone else here, "Be gone. Pronto."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davewrite
a dude from Parc Xerox (that multibillion dollar earning division that sold hundreds of millions of consumer devices.... Nope )
yep, all these theoretical geniuses have all these wonderful ideas except they have no clue to actually MAKE a product for the masses - to make a product you need a product that you can manufacture and that people will BUY and you need to make money (no money no manufacturing, no marketing, no retail.... )
Only a pea brain would imagine commercialization is the domain of a greater mind than that in which which germinate great ideas. Be gone. Pronto.
Well said, but Mr. Kay should have been more specific, regardless of his history. I'm retired now but once had a boss who criticized me often. He was relentless, but specific and provided examples. He was a military fighter pilot who also received constant denunciation from a former senior officer. One day, my former boss confided that he wouldn't waste his time criticizing others who lacked the talent, drive, and potential. I was humbled, but never forgot his words and the confidence he inspired.
I believe that criticism and alternate points of view are welcome, but no matter who you are or whatever the legacy, your are ripe for rebuttal if your claims are nebulous and unsupported. I have enjoyed the use of Apple products going on 4 years now. As long as there is valid and constructive criticism, and hose who are willing to listen, Cupertino will continue to be successful.
This is to say, that much of what he pushes is rough-edged research, new ideas that never get polished. Squeak (his Smalltalk platform) in in constant flux (or had been the last I checked). Reminds me of Woz vs Jobs. Woz, the tinkerer, the engineer, who could constantly see improvements, changes to make, while Jobs knew how to put enough polish on ideas to get the products out the door, then incrementally improve the ideas and get THEM out the door.
Quote:
Originally Posted by waldobushman
They have little skills at productizing and stabilizing their platforms or ideas. Lack of business acumen, perhaps?
Just like that Leonardo da Vinci loser who could never get that helicopter idea to market. /s
I agree with this... there are many ways individuals learn... We've all been exposed to "Learn by doing". Have you ever experienced "Learn by teaching"? By that I mean you are teaching something or explaining something and someone asks a question (or your subconscious poses the question) -- and you provide an answer... then you say to yourself -- "I didn't know I knew that!"
The same thing can happen with any creative activity like "authoring"... You must lean forward and participate as opposed to lean back and observe... both are necessary.
One of my grandsons is hooked on the game MineCraft -- and very good at it. He doesn't realize it, but he is doing 3D CAD and 3D Drafting (for which he has no training or interest). Think of the possibilities if he could interactively author the "games" as well as play them.
I kinda' agree with this too... the original iOS SDK had lots of flaws and security exposures -- so they closed it down. Also, I believe that Apple didn't know what it had -- and was reluctant to expose too much too soon -- in case it would prevent them from further development or exploitation -- and it could aid potential competitors.
This is where Kay's idealist view is at odds with the real world of making money...
Though, I believe that Kay would have no problem telling his opinion to Jobs -- and that Jobs would give the consideration it (and Kay) deserves.
...
[/quote]
Edit: AIR, Apple offered a free license of OS X or iOS (maybe both) as the OS for OLPC/OTPC (One Laptop Per Child / One Tablet Per Child).