German court strikes down Apple's customer data privacy rules

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 61
    thepixeldocthepixeldoc Posts: 2,257member
    jungmark wrote: »
    So does that mean users will be prompted every time location services are needed? If so, that could be quite annoying.

    SJ: No.
  • Reply 22 of 61
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 20,588member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ThePixelDoc View Post





    Yes. Actually it would be... but not for the snarky comment on the end of the post.



    Real reason: majority of Germans are on inexpensive POG plans using "Smart Phones", not "Super Smart Phones". BTW: this extra "Super" category is starting to be used now more often in German tech media to differentiate the low-spec phones that many people were led to believe were "the same as the iPhone or Galaxy" brands.



    On topic: yes... the Germans are extremely vigilant protecting their privacy rights(!). Although a very large number do not have the slightest idea how much data-mining is going on by Google, because it's just too far out their for them to fathom really. They have been led to believe that the government, or specifically the VZBV would have stopped anything even approaching what Google does, long, long ago. It has been rather recent that many Germans have become of aware of what's being collected... and of course... Apple is the worst offender because they make the most profit.... and are inherently evil because of it.



    Not going to rag on my adopted country any longer, but they are a rather naive bunch when it comes to computer technology... other than those that work in the industry. Just sayin'......image


    Hmm. . . Apple gets a single ding from a single country (so far) for it's privacy policies and you feel they're being treated unfairly compared to Google? Perhaps Apple isn't being treated the same. That's a good thing so accept it while it lasts.

  • Reply 23 of 61
    dasanman69dasanman69 Posts: 12,980member
    SJ: No.

    Good thing you're not SJ.
  • Reply 24 of 61
    dasanman69dasanman69 Posts: 12,980member
    Yes. Actually it would be... but not for the snarky comment on the end of the post.

    Real reason: majority of Germans are on inexpensive POG plans using "Smart Phones", not "Super Smart Phones". BTW: this extra "Super" category is starting to be used now more often in German tech media to differentiate the low-spec phones that many people were led to believe were "the same as the iPhone or Galaxy" brands.

    On topic: yes... the Germans are extremely vigilant protecting their privacy rights(!). Although a very large number do not have the slightest idea how much data-mining is going on by Google, because it's just too far out their for them to fathom really. They have been led to believe that the government, or specifically the VZBV would have stopped anything even approaching what Google does, long, long ago. It has been rather recent that many Germans have become of aware of what's being collected... and of course... Apple is the worst offender because they make the most profit.... and are inherently evil because of it.

    Not going to rag on my adopted country any longer, but they are a rather naive bunch when it comes to computer technology... other than those that work in the industry. Just sayin'......:p

    The Germans are pretty smart you know. They're more than capable of knowing what Google is up to. They were smart enough to find out what many on here deny and that's that Apple does indeed give your info to advertisers.
  • Reply 25 of 61
    scprofessorscprofessor Posts: 218member


    Oh the Germans are not that smart. They build an overpriced car in South Kaclelaky that gets its parts from the same vendors than supplies Ford and Chrysler. 

  • Reply 26 of 61
    anonymouseanonymouse Posts: 6,578member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post


    Apple and Google are very much alike when it comes to their privacy policies. 



     


    Notice he uses the term "privacy policies". Most companies are "very much alike" in their privacy policies. That's because the purpose of privacy policies is mainly to provide legal cover, not to tell you in detail exactly what the company does with the data.


     


    The important question is what are the companies' privacy practices, how much do they violate privacy and in what ways. GG would like you to focus on the "policies" not the practices, and with good reason (for him and Google). No one has been caught violating privacy laws as often as Google, and no one violates your privacy in more ways than Google. Ignore the policy, scrutinize the practice.

  • Reply 27 of 61
    alex101alex101 Posts: 40member


    @ThePixelDoctor:


    If Germans feel Apple is evil then it's because of the price of their products which are generally viewed as overpriced. An advertising slogan called "Geiz ist geil" (translates to something like "Stinginess is awesome") by an electronics chain store a few years ago has since become a mentality for lots of people. They ask themselves: Why pay €700 for an iPhone when you can get an iPhone-like device like the Galaxy S3 for €500? They don't see the extra value but rather lower their sights to save a few bucks. It's something that bugs me personally but a cheaper iPhone might do wonders for Apple here anyway. 


     


    As for data privacy, I don't think the public sees Apple as a big issue yet. They haven't made huge headlines in the mainstream media because of it like Google (Street View) or Facebook (unintentional public Facebook events turned 5000 people rager) have.


     


    Overall, it's pretty easy to accuse a company of data privacy wrongdoing. The hard part? Throwing together a solid case with actual proof.

  • Reply 28 of 61
    lostkiwilostkiwi Posts: 598member
    Can you provide specific examples of this? Links (not from Android Life or whatever).
  • Reply 29 of 61
    alex101alex101 Posts: 40member


    Examples for what, exactly?

  • Reply 30 of 61
    dasanman69dasanman69 Posts: 12,980member
    Oh the Germans are not that smart. They build an overpriced car in South Kaclelaky that gets its parts from the same vendors than supplies Ford and Chrysler. 

    Plus they tried taking over the world with a puny underfunded army.
  • Reply 31 of 61
    philboogiephilboogie Posts: 7,438member
    lostkiwi wrote: »
    Can you provide specific examples of this? Links (not from Android Life or whatever).

    There's life in Android¿
  • Reply 32 of 61
    philboogiephilboogie Posts: 7,438member
    gatorguy wrote: »
    Hmm. . . Apple gets a single ding from a single country (so far) for it's privacy policies and you feel they're being treated unfairly compared to Google? Perhaps Apple isn't being treated the same. That's a good thing so accept it while it lasts.

    -1
  • Reply 33 of 61
    alex101alex101 Posts: 40member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post





    Plus they tried taking over the world with a puny underfunded army.


    Once we saved all Southern European countries from national bankruptcy, we'll try again, I promise. image

  • Reply 34 of 61
    charlitunacharlituna Posts: 7,215member
    Curious cause last I checked apps already ask individually for access to contacts, calendar, location etc.

    So it seems like they just invalidated old rules that aren't in effect anymore because Apple voluntary changed the rules ages ago.
  • Reply 35 of 61
    isaidsoisaidso Posts: 750member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post




    Quote:

    Originally Posted by isaidso View Post


    This question is off topic, and not related to this case. If anybody has an answer, I'd appreciate it.


     


    Under German law, is Google permitted to seek "global consent" to use customer data like location information. Or must they specify in each case what a customer's data will be used for, and by which programs?


     


    Also, are Google allowed to provide consumer data to other companies that have used them for advertising?



    You already have that answer. If Google does that and doesn't explain any better than Apple does how data is collected and used they wouldn't be any better than Apple and the same rules would apply wouldn't they? It's not as tho the EU isn't investigating Google's Privacy Policies too. So far Apple's problem only extends to Germany. Don't be surprised that it eventually gets the EU Commissions attention too just as Google has.


     


    Apple and Google are very much alike when it comes to their privacy policies. Apple has been fortunate up until now to avoid the level of scrutiny that Google gets.



    No  I don't already have that answer. I'm kind of an idiot, so maybe you could just answer my question for me in a straight-forward manner, rather than with more questions of "if" and "wouldn't?" I mean, I didn't ask "if" Google does. I asked "does" Google does?


    Your "theoreticals" do not equal "You already have that answer".


    Actually, big an idiot as I am, I think your answer is pretty convoluted.

  • Reply 36 of 61
    isaidsoisaidso Posts: 750member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by alex101 View Post


    Google was ordered to pay a fine of €145.000 just last month. They were proven guilty of recording personal WLAN information without permission while gathering all the data for Street View. Also last month, France, Germany and four other European countries filed a lawsuit because of a change Google made to the Terms of Use which allows them to share user data between their different services. The list goes on and on, Google really is getting under fire a lot in Europe and Germany specifically for data privacy issues. There's no indication whatsoever Apple is getting handled any different than any other companies.


     


    Also, as Gatorguy said, us Germans take data privacy pretty seriously, each of the 16 federal states even have a government agency just for data privacy issues.



    That's useful / helpful info.


    Thanks.


     


     


    EDIT: Ok, I just googled "google privacy german court" and found the instance you refer to.


    The only other thing that came up under my search is this current story we are discussing concerning Apple.


     


    Google case Quote:


     


    Google has been fined E145,000 (£125,000) by German data regulators for illegally recording information from unsecured wi-fi networks.


    The country’s data chief called it “one of the biggest known data protection violations in history”. But the regulator admitted the amount was “totally inadequate” as a deterrent to the company.


    The search giant said it unintentionally collected data including emails, passwords and photos. Google has said it never intended to store the personal data, which had been captured in 2008-10, while the company gathered material for its Street View service.


    Under European regulations, the maximum fine for an accidental violation is 150,000 euros - but data protection supervisor Johannes Caspar called for that amount to be increased in future.


    In a statement, the regulators said: “Among the information gathered in the drive-bys were significant amounts of personal data of varying quality. For example, emails, passwords, photos and chat protocols were collected.”

  • Reply 37 of 61
    isaidsoisaidso Posts: 750member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SCProfessor View Post


    Oh the Germans are not that smart. They build an overpriced car in South Kaclelaky that gets its parts from the same vendors than supplies Ford and Chrysler. 



    Sounds pretty smart to me.

  • Reply 38 of 61
    kdarlingkdarling Posts: 1,640member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by charlituna View Post



    Curious cause last I checked apps already ask individually for access to contacts, calendar, location etc.



    So it seems like they just invalidated old rules that aren't in effect anymore because Apple voluntary changed the rules ages ago.


     


    This is not about what apps do with the info.


     


    It's about Apple's policy for its own internal use of private information.   For example, collecting info without explicit approval, even if you just shared a photo to someone's email address:


     


    "When you share your content with family and friends using Apple products, send gift certificates and products, or invite others to join you on Apple forums, Apple may collect the information you provide about those people such as name, mailing address, email address, and phone number."


     


    ...and using location services for multiple purposes...


     


    "To provide location-based services on Apple products, Apple and our partners and licensees may collect, use, and share precise location data, including the real-time geographic location of your Apple computer or device. This location data is collected anonymously in a form that does not personally identify you and is used by Apple and our partners and licensees to provide and improve location-based products and services. For example, we may share geographic location with application providers when you opt in to their location services."


     


    As far as I can tell, the people's lawyers persuaded the Court that location data was implicitly not anonymous.  


     


    I'm not giving my own opinion here, btw, but simply trying to explain the German one.

  • Reply 39 of 61
    philboogiephilboogie Posts: 7,438member
    isaidso wrote: »
    I asked "does" Google does?

    Does that mean they does do?
  • Reply 40 of 61
    jungmarkjungmark Posts: 6,687member
    alex101 wrote: »
    @ThePixelDoctor:
    If Germans feel Apple is evil then it's because of the price of their products which are generally viewed as overpriced.

    Do the Germans consider the BMW or Benz as overpriced too?
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