Cook: US-built Mac will be refreshed version of existing product

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  • Reply 121 of 223
    jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member
    wizard69 wrote: »
    I have to wonder if you read your own posts.
    Just because you, in your limited view of the world, only see 0.01% of the users plugging in external components doesn't mean that that number reflects the real world.
    And just why is that? Might it be the fact that you need special tools to pop the machines open, that is on the machines that can be popped open.

    Nope. Even when Macs were readily upgraded, surveys showed that only a tiny percentage of Mac users ever did so.

    And now that even entry level computers have more power than most users are likely to need for years, that trend is likely to accelerate.
    wizard69 wrote: »
    Even if the user doesn't pop the unit open somebody has to service it. The extra effort greatly increases the cost of that repair. The fact that users don't open the machine has zip to do with the design being a bad idea.

    So you're incapable of understanding the concept of tradeoffs. Thanks for pointing that out.

    Yes, repairs are more difficult if the case can't be easily opened. But, OTOH, the frequency of repairs may be lower with Apple's new designs. And if the frequency of repairs is low enough, the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.

    Apple clearly thinks that the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. I suspect that they know a bit more about building computers than you do.
    wizard69 wrote: »
    Like you have any sort of design experience! It isn't that difficult to make the iMacs accessible especially for the high failure rate parts. You try to paint this as an impossibility, but clearly it isn't. .

    That's called a 'straw man' argument. I never said it was impossible. I said that designing and building a computer involved tradeoffs. Apple, based on their thousands (millions?) of man-years of design experience, believes that the current design makes the most sense. You, with your microseconds of design experience, do not.

    So who should we believe? And if you're so much smarter than Apple, why haven't you started your own company or sold your expertise to one of Apple's competitors?

    And, btw, I do have extensive design experience and design-to-manufacture experience, along with general management experience that involves assessing the kinds of tradeoffs that Apple has to evaluate. You obviously don't.
  • Reply 122 of 223
    v5vv5v Posts: 1,357member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jragosta View Post



    For the 0.01% of iMac users who need it, that is.



    The overwhelming majority of iMac users never open their computers.


     


    Noted and accepted as a valid premise, but now the roughly 2-5% who will experience a hard drive failure pay a MUCH higher price for repairs, since drive failure is the kind of thing that is likely to occur post-AppleCare.


     


    That, in itself, is probably not a good enough reason to build in easy access, but the point is that Apple's choice is not without consequences for the user. You are satisfied with the choices of trade-offs Apple has made in the design of the iMac. Some of us would prefer that they sacrificed some of the aesthetic choices instead and focussed on greater utility.


     


    The difference is in the type of user. Apple appears to be targeting buyers for whom a computer is just another small appliance, like an espresso machine or panini press. Those whose computer is chosen more like carpentry tools are frustrated because the only choices are a geezly expensive behemoth or switching to Windows.


     


     


     



    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jragosta View Post



    I'm not. I'm simply opposed to people with no design experience and no experience in manufacturing sophisticated products and who don't understand that their are tradeoffs thinking that they get to dictate to Apple how they should build computers.


     


    I don't know if it's that complicated. What Apple has done is the equivalent of a auto maker deciding that their car looks nicer and could be made sleeker if it didn't have a hood (bonnet for those on that side of the pond). The fact that most drivers never open it anyway doesn't make it a good choice. Eventually the battery is going to die, and replacing it is gonna be a BITCH.


     


    We accept such trade-offs in inexpensive, disposable devices because their cost doesn't justify the time and effort required to repair them. An Apple computer hardly qualifies as "inexpensive."


     


     





    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jragosta View Post



    Once again, if you're so much smarter than Apple, go build your own.


     


    I make no such claim, however I do have preferences and will continue to lobby my preferred supplier to accommodate them. User feedback has brought about many positive changes to a variety of hardware and software products over the last few years, like, for example, all the features added to FCPX and Tim Cook's promise of a computer for pros. Letting Apple know that we like their products and want to continue buying them, but that we still want to be able to do rudimentary upgrades/repairs ourselves, is not the same as believing we can "dictate" to Apple.

  • Reply 123 of 223
    tribalogicaltribalogical Posts: 1,181member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by eji View Post


     


     Just because we don't share the same opinion doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about.


     


     


    Yes, but in this case, the repairability took a back seat to other considerations. This isn't just my opinion — it's shared by third-party repair specialists I've talked to, who have said that the new iMacs suffer from the same — if not more — hardware problems as the old ones (many of which are due to heat and ultra-thinness), but they can't be opened and repaired without a huge time- and labor-intensive process. Let's remember that Apple is not infallible.


     


     



    This is no different to saying that if you disagree with my posts, you should go start your own message board. It doesn't prove a point — or at least not the point you want it to prove.



     


    It does seem more your subjective "opinion" than simple fact, and here's why: I've also spoken to a couple of "3rd party repair specialists" who say that the new iMac actually isn't a whole lot more difficult to service. Depending on the repair, there may be a couple of extra steps, but it isn't a big deal to them it seems. As one of them put it to me, "way minor differences". 


     


    Once inside, they also say the layout is just as nice, with it being no more or less difficult getting to/swapping out components, like the hard drive (assuming it isn't solid state).


     


    This notion of "less repairable" iMac was a subjective one picked up by the 'nets and distributed liberally.


     


    It may be true that the new iMac is less "user serviceable" than previous models, but, I'm not sure how my 2010 iMac is any MORE user serviceable than the new one. It really isn't.


     


    And to declare the new iMac "suffers" from "the same or MORE of the same problems" is 'non-specific negativity' that doesn't prove any points at all. Interesting choices of words.


     


    I use two external hard drives with my 2010 iMac, and boot from one of them regularly. I probably won't pay to replace my internal hard drive if it ever does fail while I own it. How it that any different with the new iMac, especially given the push toward solid state drives?


     


    And regardless of whether Apple is fallible or not, I still think this is mostly a non-issue… 

  • Reply 124 of 223

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jungmark View Post





    Why should Apple be the only company to make revolutionary products? Apple rarely is on the bleeding edge of spec tech. Apple charges a "premium" because it controls all the widgets. It designs the products so the software integrates with the hardware than most (if not all) inefficiencies are removed. In addition, changing products for every new processor isn't cost effective or efficient. HP and Dell have done this but look at those guys now. Dell is going private and HP thought about selling its PC division.




    Cost effective is a relative term. Any company that wants to maintain a great reputation for innovation must factor in the need to update its products often. If it doesn't then its reputation diminishes. Apple's reputation has been diminishing in the eyes of long time Apple computer users. I've read it here and on other Apple forums. The reason they stick around for so long is because of Windows. Who really wants to go back to Windows? Nobody. So those who don't want to fiddle with a Linux distribution must continue with the Mac platform. The Mac is winning only because HP, Dell, Lenovo, Acer, Samsung, and the rest keep using Windows as their OS.


     


    If Apple ever offers its OS for sale to the general public the way Microsoft does, there will be many people who abandon the Apple hardware for their own custom made boxes or one from another company.


     


    Apple is basking in their "It Just Works" reputation, which is true. They have abandoned being a leading edge company for being a profit first company. They're becoming Sears. They have high quality products that are priced higher than the competition but they aren't leading the pack. They go with what they know and with what works.


     


    Often they buy tech companies that are leading their fields and incorporate those features into Apple products. How much of Lightpeak/Thunderbolt did Apple really invent? Maybe Intel did all of the work and Apple just agreed to be the first to incorporate it. Apple was first with Retina displays but screen makers were already creating 4K technology. Perhaps Apple just grabbed it first. Maybe they didn't really create it at all. They didn't create Siri. They bought it. Where is the real Apple innovation? I think Apple peaked in 2007 with the introduction of the iPhone. From then onward the computer segment of the company was secondary and probably will be until they don't want to make them at all.

  • Reply 125 of 223
    rogifanrogifan Posts: 10,669member

    Apple is basking in their "It Just Works" reputation, which is true. They have abandoned being a leading edge company for being a profit first company. They're becoming Sears. They have high quality products that are priced higher than the competition but they aren't leading the pack. They go with what they know and with what works.
    Apple is becoming Sears? WTF?
  • Reply 126 of 223
    rogifanrogifan Posts: 10,669member
    It does seem more your subjective "opinion" than simple fact, and here's why: I've also spoken to a couple of "3rd party repair specialists" who say that the new iMac actually isn't a whole lot more difficult to service. Depending on the repair, there may be a couple of extra steps, but it isn't a big deal to them it seems. As one of them put it to me, "way minor differences". 

    Once inside, they also say the layout is just as nice, with it being no more or less difficult getting to/swapping out components, like the hard drive (assuming it isn't solid state).

    This notion of "less repairable" iMac was a subjective one picked up by the 'nets and distributed liberally.

    It may be true that the new iMac is less "user serviceable" than previous models, but, I'm not sure how my 2010 iMac is any MORE user serviceable than the new one. It really isn't.

    And to declare the new iMac "suffers" from "the same or MORE of the same problems" is 'non-specific negativity' that doesn't prove any points at all. Interesting choices of words.

    I use two external hard drives with my 2010 iMac, and boot from one of them regularly. I probably won't pay to replace my internal hard drive if it ever does fail while I own it. How it that any different with the new iMac, especially given the push toward solid state drives?

    And regardless of whether Apple is fallible or not, I still think this is mostly a non-issue… 
    It started with iFixit and then got picked up everywhere else because it could be used to bash Apple. Of course iFixit has an agend so they're not exactly neutral and impartial on the subject.
  • Reply 127 of 223
    jcm722jcm722 Posts: 40member


    Intel has an AIO case (Loop CAPO8) that comes apart with ease. Also has a traditional form factor motherboard, running CPUs up to 64 watt TDP. I assume many Mac users don't keep their computers long enough to require replacing the coin cell battery that feeds the clock. Open up the Intel AIO, and there it is. Apple could build serviceable products, but they probably wouldn't be so effing rich if they did.

  • Reply 128 of 223
    jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member
    jcm722 wrote: »
    Intel has an AIO case (Loop CAPO8) that comes apart with ease. Also has a traditional form factor motherboard, running CPUs up to 64 watt TDP. I assume many Mac users don't keep their computers long enough to require replacing the coin cell battery that feeds the clock. Open up the Intel AIO, and there it is. Apple could build serviceable products, but they probably wouldn't be so effing rich if they did.

    Ridiculous comment for several reasons.

    1. It's not that hard to get into the case of the current iMac if you need to. Not a lot more difficult than the old one.

    2. With the switch to SSDs, hard drive reliability is less of an issue for a large portion of the customers, anyway.

    3. Going to soldered RAM on some of the systems makes them MORE reliable, anyway.

    4. While I haven't seen any recent figures, historically, Mac users kept their computers longer than Wintel PC users.

    In the end, Macs are still at the top of the list in customer satisfaction and reliability. All of the whiners here don't have anything to base their claims on but their own uninformed opinions. If any of them had actually designed or built something and understood the tradeoffs, their opinions might have some value. As it is, it's nothing more than the endless Apple-bashing that has been going on in forums like this for decades.
  • Reply 129 of 223
    v5vv5v Posts: 1,357member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jragosta View Post



    2. With the switch to SSDs, hard drive reliability is less of an issue for a large portion of the customers, anyway.


     


    "Large portion?" Now you're just arguing for the sake of it. That's an utterly ridiculous statement and you know it.


     


     



    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jragosta View Post



    All of the whiners here don't have anything to base their claims on but their own uninformed opinions. If any of them had actually designed or built something and understood the tradeoffs, their opinions might have some value. As it is, it's nothing more than the endless Apple-bashing that has been going on in forums like this for decades.


     


    I see. Your opinion has been noted. Thank you very little. Or f^ck you very much. Whichever one manages to penetrate that vainglorious bubble of self-perceived superiority you live in.


     


    I try having a respectful exchange of opinions with you and all you can do is dig, insult and blow your own ego. Have at it, asshole. I'm tired of being your jerk-off toy.

  • Reply 130 of 223
    jcm722jcm722 Posts: 40member


    My next computer will be a Haswell machine and I may be stubborn enough to hold out for Broadwell. I am not willing to spend extra for SSD this time. I realize the Mac is reliable, and some believe the mini is the most reliable of all. If my vision would allow me to have a mini, I would add an external HDD via USB 3, probably from OWC. I would grab the $599 model, using the internal drive for backup and the external as the boot drive. Yes, I'd save money by swapping the 4 GB RAM myself. I cannot believe soldered in place RAM makes a product more reliable. Show me. Apple could learn something from Intel and the NUC. Nothing inside the box that doesn't need to be. The perfect minimalist machine.


     


    What exactly happens in the education system when Macs fail? Do schools really have the extra money in their budgets to have Apple fix everything?


     


    This is pretty simple stuff. A hard drive can fail, just like a light bulb can burn out. Yep, newer light bulbs last longer. The good news is, when they fail, ANYONE can repair them. Imagine Best Western buying light bulbs that need a tech to replace.


     


    I've asked before, and no one is telling me how much it costs to repair a Macs HD beyond Apple Care.

  • Reply 131 of 223
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,399member


    Originally Posted by Smallwheels View Post

    Any company that wants to maintain a great reputation for innovation must factor in the need to update its products often.


     


    So shoving out updates is "innovation"? Go away, Samsung.


     



    Apple's reputation has been diminishing in the eyes of long time Apple computer users.


     


    No. It hasn't. Shut up.





    If Apple ever offers its OS for sale to the general public the way Microsoft does, there will be many people who abandon the Apple hardware for their own custom made boxes or one from another company.



     


    Not really, no. They make absolute trash hardware. And it wouldn't happen in the first place.





    Apple is basking in their "It Just Works" reputation, which is true. They have abandoned being a leading edge company for being a profit first company. They're becoming Sears. They have high quality products that are priced higher than the competition but they aren't leading the pack. They go with what they know and with what works.



     


    Absolute ludicrous nonsense.





    How much of Lightpeak/Thunderbolt did Apple really invent? Maybe Intel did all of the work and Apple just agreed to be the first to incorporate it.



     


    How about reading anything whatsoever about it at all?






    Apple was first with Retina displays but screen makers were already creating 4K technology.



     


    4K ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Retina in any respect.






    They didn't create Siri. They bought it. 



     


    Oh, shut up. That's as stupid as "They didn't create iTunes, they bought it."






    From then onward the computer segment of the company was secondary…



     


    The only accurate thing you've said.

  • Reply 132 of 223
    jungmarkjungmark Posts: 6,705member

    Cost effective is a relative term. Any company that wants to maintain a great reputation for innovation must factor in the need to update its products often. If it doesn't then its reputation diminishes. Apple's reputation has been diminishing in the eyes of long time Apple computer users. I've read it here and on other Apple forums. The reason they stick around for so long is because of Windows. Who really wants to go back to Windows? Nobody. So those who don't want to fiddle with a Linux distribution must continue with the Mac platform. The Mac is winning only because HP, Dell, Lenovo, Acer, Samsung, and the rest keep using Windows as their OS.

    If Apple ever offers its OS for sale to the general public the way Microsoft does, there will be many people who abandon the Apple hardware for their own custom made boxes or one from another company.

    Apple is basking in their "It Just Works" reputation, which is true. They have abandoned being a leading edge company for being a profit first company. They're becoming Sears. They have high quality products that are priced higher than the competition but they aren't leading the pack. They go with what they know and with what works.

    Often they buy tech companies that are leading their fields and incorporate those features into Apple products. How much of Lightpeak/Thunderbolt did Apple really invent? Maybe Intel did all of the work and Apple just agreed to be the first to incorporate it. Apple was first with Retina displays but screen makers were already creating 4K technology. Perhaps Apple just grabbed it first. Maybe they didn't really create it at all. They didn't create Siri. They bought it. Where is the real Apple innovation? I think Apple peaked in 2007 with the introduction of the iPhone. From then onward the computer segment of the company was secondary and probably will be until they don't want to make them at all.

    Do how often does BMW update its cars? How often does Rolex updates their watches.

    What what has Google innovated. It bought Android and Moto.

    Buying tech and integrating it is so easy. The developers just puts a pointer in the code and does nothing else. /s
  • Reply 133 of 223
    jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member
    v5v wrote: »
    I see. Your opinion has been noted. Thank you very little. Or f^ck you very much. Whichever one manages to penetrate that vainglorious bubble of self-perceived superiority you live in.

    I try having a respectful exchange of opinions with you and all you can do is dig, insult and blow your own ego. Have at it, asshole. I'm tired of being your jerk-off toy.


    Yeah. You can't refute anything I said and you can't establish any credibility for your ridiculous assertions that you know how to build computers better than Apple, so you resort to simple name calling.

    Please go away and come back only if you come up with something intelligent to say.
  • Reply 134 of 223
    mactacmactac Posts: 315member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


    No. It hasn't. Shut up.


     



     


    Yes it has. I've been a Mac user for 20 years. Currently Apple lacks the type of computer I want to buy. As such Apple's reputation has gone down.


     


    Just because it hasn't gone down for YOU doesn't mean it hasn't gone down for other long time Mac users.


    Quit putting your opinion out here as fact.

  • Reply 135 of 223
    gtrgtr Posts: 3,231member
    mactac wrote: »
    Yes it has. I've been a Mac user for 20 years. Currently Apple lacks the type of computer I want to buy. As such Apple's reputation has gone down.

    Just because it hasn't gone down for YOU doesn't mean it hasn't gone down for other long time Mac users.
    Quit putting your opinion out here as fact.

    No it hasn't.

    Quit putting YOUR opinion out there as fact.

    (This game is fun!)
  • Reply 136 of 223
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    gtr wrote: »
    (This game is fun!)

    No it's not!

    (I see what you mean!)
  • Reply 137 of 223
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,399member


    Originally Posted by MacTac View Post

    Currently Apple lacks the type of computer I want to buy. As such Apple's reputation has gone down.




    ALL HAIL THE ALMIGHTY SINGLE GUY SOMEWHERE! HE WHOSE SOLE OPINION DIMINISHES THE REPUTATION OF THE WEALTHIEST COMPANIES IN THE WORLD!





    Just because it hasn't gone down for YOU doesn't mean it hasn't gone down for other long time Mac users.


    Quit putting your opinion out here as fact.



     


    CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v62), quality = 85


     


    HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA


     


    Irony.

  • Reply 138 of 223
    jungmarkjungmark Posts: 6,705member
    mactac wrote: »
    Yes it has. I've been a Mac user for 20 years. Currently Apple lacks the type of computer I want to buy. As such Apple's reputation has gone down.

    Just because it hasn't gone down for YOU doesn't mean it hasn't gone down for other long time Mac users.
    Quit putting your opinion out here as fact.

    If that's the case, BMW, Rolex suck because they don't give me what I want.
  • Reply 139 of 223
    marvfoxmarvfox Posts: 2,275member


    Who is that his girl friend next to him!

     

  • Reply 140 of 223

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


     


    So shoving out updates is "innovation"? Go away, Samsung.


     


     


    No. It hasn't. Shut up.


     


    Not really, no. They make absolute trash hardware. And it wouldn't happen in the first place.


     


    Absolute ludicrous nonsense.


     


    How about reading anything whatsoever about it at all?


     


    4K ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Retina in any respect.


     


    Oh, shut up. That's as stupid as "They didn't create iTunes, they bought it."


     


    The only accurate thing you've said.



     






    Apple isn't my religion the way it is yours. It is a company that makes products they want me to buy. When I see other companies making similar or better products for the same or less money I'm open to buying them. When other companies sell newer designs with current year technology I'll go for those over the older stuff Apple sells. I'm not a Windows guy. I like a couple of flavors of Linux, so the crappy Windows OS doesn't play into my purchasing decisions.


     


    Apple won't make a small tower that numerous people here and elsewhere want. They gave up on the 17" Mac Book that numerous people want. The Mac Pro refresh cycle is driving people nuts. The Mini less so. Apple is paring its line to fewer items so that its transition to all tablets and phones won't be so abrupt. Why else are they so slow to update their computer line? All of those things diminish Apple's reputation. Justify Apple's decisions all you want, but it won't take away from the facts that Apple doesn't always lead the pack in computing.


     


    Steve Jobs was good at predicting the future of computing and electronic devices but he wasn't the only one out there creating the future. Other companies have vision too. The Apple TV might be the last thing innovative that they create, and it was thought up by Steve Jobs.


     


    Google Glass, once working, will be the next great revolution in personal computing. It's not for work but it has amazing potential to do things that a phone can't accomplish.

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