Unfortunately this is a political witch hunt. Because Apple is very profitable, Apple will be found guilty of hiding billions of taxes, then Apple would appeal, and end up paying a small token penalty and the show will drag on for month. Apple gain nothing to testify and should just say we are sorry and we have been doing this for years and we are ready to negotiate the price being the most valuable company.
That would lend credence to the idea that Apple become Too Big To Go Unpunished.
OTOH, Wall Street Investment banks that become Too Big To Fail get a taxpayer bailout.
Isn't it nice how the Democrates get your vote and once in office screw you over royally! The last thing we need in this country is more taxes going to the welfare crowd.
The big problem is that Apple worked to get these fools elected in the first place. Nothing like getting stabbed in the back helping out the wrong people. Sadly we have nothing but a bunch of greedy clowns in DC now.
The Senate report is a snow job, full of innuendoes. Apple has, indeed, paid all taxes owed on US pre-tax income. Problems in Ireland are Ireland's problem, not the US's. This is all fundamentally the result of a messed-up tax code created by the Congress.
But who cares.
Some of us pointed out that Cook made a mistake in agreeing to testify in front of these maroons. I hope we were not right. At a minimum, this is disastrous PR for Apple.
You have to stand up to this idiocy. The government is unfortunately piloted by morons that actually believe in wealth redistribution to the lazy and unemployable.
The point is (and this is the crux of the problem), Apple and many other companies are recognizing revenue in Ireland that there is no way they actually generated in Ireland, and they are recognizing the revenue there purely because Ireland have a very low rate of Corporate tax.
There is no chance Apple actually did $30bn of revenue in a country of 4.6 million between 2009-2012 (especially considering the Irish economy was dying at the time), but that is what they reported and it would equate to $1630 per year over that period for every person in Ireland. That is in a country with an average pre-tax income of $45,000. It's just not sensible to believe that every person in Ireland is spending 3.5% of their income on Apple products every year.
I don't doubt Apples reporting was perfectly legal and above board, because within the European Union, you can book sales in one country even if they are made in another (Starbucks, Google, Amazon all do the same). The question is, why do our politicians allow it to be legal?
Welcome to the EU. Clusterfxxk of laws and rules, money burning bureaucracy, while reducing democracy.
And why does anyone care what anyone in Congress has to say? This is fresh... pick on the most successful American company in history and accuse them of (gasp) following the law as written. My god, are they now saying there is a "higher moral obligation" to pay taxes that are above and beyond what is required by the IRS? And if so, why are you singling out Apple and not every other corporation in America?
These so-called "senators" are nothing but a clown show and should be treated as such.
Clowns? These people are worse than clowns. So predictable to see McCain attach himself to yet another "cause" in order to attention-whore himself. This pathetic sac of garbage should have rode into the sunset long ago, yet it seems he's desperate to define some sort of "legacy" for himself by exploiting anything and everything he can for cheap political points. This is the same fuckface that brought us Sarah Palin, and was cool with her potentially becoming President of the United States. Thats how much this guy gives a shit about this country. This is the same guy who called a press conference calling for Benghazi "answers", during which he skipped a hearing he was invited to which was meant to give those answers. The guy can't shut the **** up about Benghazi, yet he didnt utter a single word blaming the gvt for the thousands murdered on american soil, or the clusterfuck that was Iraq where thousands of americans also died. But suddenly he gives a shit about 3 dead americans across the world when it suits his political needs. This guy wants to lecture Apple?
"A company that has found remarkable success by harnessing American ingenuity and the opportunities afforded by the U.S. economy should not be shifting its profits overseas to avoid the payment of U.S. tax, purposefully depriving the American people of revenue."
What the **** does that even mean? Apple found remarkable success by being remarkable. What does "American ingenuity" have to do with it? Shifting it's profits overseas? Apple does not shift a single fucking dollar it earns in the US overseas. The $$ it EARNS overseas, it has full rights to keep it there. Besides the record amount of tax dollars Apple gives the US, it has CREATED enormous wealth and employment through not only it's Apple stores, but the countless companies who exist today solely to provide for Apple's ecosystem, be it accessories for Apple's hardware products, or developers. Apple is one of those companies who's success empowers and enables the success of others. Yet these vindictive fucks, like McCain, couldn't give 2 shits about that, preferring to skewer the company to get themselves into the limelight. The fact that Tim Cook is attending this hearing will bring it infinitely more publicity than it should. At the end of the day, I don't see him coming out as a winner. These senators are more practised at this dog and pony show, which is exactly what this is, and their propaganda and twisting of the truth in order to promote themselves will outweigh the facts themselves, and any sort of reason and beneficial reform that Cook might put forward.
So they guys making the rules for the game are now claiming "No Fair" because they or their predecessors made loopholes for their friends?
Maybe congress should take their ball and go home like a bunch of whining babies. I'm so sick of US Congress, the most mismanaged entity in the world, demanding more money because they can't balance a checkbook. My grandkids are going to be paying for today's Congress' mistakes.
I hope some chest-thumping congressman makes an ass out of himself in the morning and it's on CNN by noon. Someone please DVR it and upload it.
Isn't it nice how the Democrates get your vote and once in office screw you over royally! The last thing we need in this country is more taxes going to the welfare crowd.
I'm not American, but isn't Senator McCain a Republican? I daresay that any extra revenue that the US Government collects from this will not be going towards public welfare, more likely the military or to corporate welfare.
This is another silly argument that comes up in these threads. I don't feel like arguing about Apple here, but writing off direct expenses or depreciating equipment has nothing to do with the line of questioning. I suspect you took the notebook as a section 179 expense. It's aimed at small businesses, and you are supposed to use that. You did not set up a foreign entity to buy the notebook and lease it back to you at an inflated rate. That would be an example of something that would be scrutinized. If they started to mess with the pricing paid from one subsidiary to another to move cash around, that would be scrutinized. There's a difference between writing expenses as expenses and fabricating them. Again this has nothing to do with accusations. I just wanted to point out your terrible analogy, which one person always makes anytime this topic comes up.
Nonsense. It's a valid argument. I'm doing what I can to minimize my tax-hit so I buy stuff to lower my taxable gross income. I buy a laptop, some buy hummers, all reduce their tax exposure. Do I (they) need it? Not really. It it legal? Sure. Is it morally correct? Grey area. I could have just pretend to be patriotic and just pay more taxes so that the money goes to needed services, military, of Congress' fat a$$. That's what people think Apple should do.
Apple did nothing wrong, it did nothing illegal. Congress is simply whoring themselves to the media to justify their jobs. That's all. I wished Tim Cook would just stand there and give them all the middle-finger. They have nothing on him, and they know it.
The point is (and this is the crux of the problem), Apple and many other companies are recognizing revenue in Ireland that there is no way they actually generated in Ireland, and they are recognizing the revenue there purely because Ireland have a very low rate of Corporate tax.
...
I don't doubt Apples reporting was perfectly legal and above board, because within the European Union, you can book sales in one country even if they are made in another (Starbucks, Google, Amazon all do the same). The question is, why do our politicians allow it to be legal?
There's actually two problems, of which only one is under the control of the US.
The first problem, the one the US can't control, but is their fault, is the low tax rate in Ireland. Go take a look at which European countries needed or almost needed bailouts. Ireland is one of those. Now WHY is that? Because they seem hellbent on being "competitive" and they know damn well the only reason anyone sets up companies there is because of the low tax rate. If they were to suddenly raise the tax rates, those companies would move to the next stable country with a low tax rate.
That's no different than the reason companies in the US pick states with the lowest tax rates to setup in.
The second problem is double-taxation, and I can't figure out why any country does it. It makes no sense to tax income of a foreign entity for income earned by the foreign entity. All software companies already know that it's easy to setup a company in a foreign low-tax market and assign all the IP to that company, thereby all the income on sales is earned by that company. Repatriation of that money never needs to happen, because as far as legal jurisdictions go, that income wasn't earned by the domestic branch of the company. So it makes no sense to tax income that was already taxed in the legal jurisdiction it was earned in.
How that needs to be fixed, is a long and complicated process, but the gist of fixing the problem has to start with closing the same loopholes rich people have used to hide their wealth. Apple wouldn't be doing this if other companies and individuals weren't, and that comes down to competitive reasons, not "moral" ones. The solution really needs to be either:
a) that money can never be repatriated (those foreign companies are legally not in the US) and that money can only be sent to the US by the foreign company "paying" the parent company for services/licences, by which that money is then treated as income again to the US parent company. (which is where we are at now)
or
b) The US demands all offshore subsidiaries to be closed or be made independent of their "parent" company. Thus legally there are no offshore companies from which to "hide" income with. The offshore companies are basically turned into income trusts by which the parent owns 100% of, but has no control over. Since the owner would be collecting revenue from the foreign company, that would be subject to US tax rules.
But I have no faith in the US political system to fix anything, and what we're staring at is the elephant in the room.
The one thing that stands out is that for all their posturing, this committee hasn't dared used the phrase 'tax evasion.' If they can't say 'tax evasion' then they don't have a leg to stand on.
What they are hoping to do is fix an idea in the public mind that 'tax avoidance' is illegal, which is completely untrue. So, this is nothing more than an attempt to shame Apple into paying more tax than it is legally required to do (it worked in the UK with Starbucks).
Why are they targeting Apple, and not Google, or Microsoft or GE?
Well, I hate to say this but I think that Tim Cook's actions regarding loans and dividend payouts have made him look like a CEO who can be easily swayed by external influences.
He has the chance to redress this tomorrow. If he fails then government bodies and investment analysts will spend the next ten years picking Apple clean.
Well, there's the great irony. The same people calling Apple out on this issue are the same people who wrote the damned tax laws to begin with. All they need to do is legislate a fix to the "problem" they created, right?
Except THAT would then deprive them of income (and campaign contributions) they enjoy today, gained so often from the people and companies practicing exactly the same behavior as Apple (and Google).
It's a sideshow. Apple is a convenient whipping post. They'll make a bunch of "caring about revenue" noise, then this too shall pass...
Anything and everything except doing what really needs to be done. Raising taxes on people like Mitt Romney for starters, so they pay a fair share of taxes (I mean, come on. Net 12%? On millions? I'd LOVE to pay only 12% on my income!). We need to close a few loopholes, and tighten up the revenue ship.
One of the problems is Apple ( and Google et. al) don't buy off Congressmen. Apples pays 35% on it's revenues in the US, thats all it owes legally. REvenue accrued outside the US, has never been an issue for the US treasury. Meanwhile vast swathes of US industry are molly-coddled, too big to fail, or subsidized when they fail, and Apple pays for a lot of that with its taxes. Congress never investigates that kind of thing because the rent-seekers depend on government, so they pay off Congressmen to turn a blind eye
By the way neither Apple, ( nor Google, nor Amazon) owe the UK a red cent. The campaign against all these companies in the UK is absurd nonsense.
If they are doing nothing wrong then why are you leaping to defend them? That's what's funny about the reaction. Precious Apple is under attack from the big bad bureaucrats. The big bad bureaucrats who are incapable of doing anything anyway? And Apple create jobs! And other companies are financially creative too! And FU Europe!
No one even mentioned the UK, "By the way"
A question to those with Apple in their hearts and loins... why do you think you need to defend Apple? They seem to be doing pretty well; and they're not going to thank you.
If they are doing nothing wrong then why are you leaping to defend them? That's what's funny about the reaction. Precious Apple is under attack from the big bad bureaucrats. The big bad bureaucrats who are incapable of doing anything anyway? And Apple create jobs! And other companies are financially creative too! And FU Europe!
No one even mentioned the UK, "By the way"
A question to those with Apple in their hearts and loins... why do you think you need to defend Apple? They seem to be doing pretty well; and they're not going to thank you.
I have attacked Apple plenty of times in this forum, and have been labelled a "troll" even though I have been here since 2003. Do a quick search of recent posts, where I attack the present management. Most of the last posts have been critical. I've gotten more critical this year, in fact.
On this issue I would defend them, (and Google, Amazon or MicroSoft), particularly against predatory British bureaucrats. ( American senators have some logic, the British claim on Irish tax is absurd). I mentioned Britain because you are British, and was responding to you.
Also, an adhominem is not a debate. You claimed that Apple is doing something wrong. To prove it you need to state what you think is wrong, so an actual debate can ensue.
Instead you engaged in two logical fallacies - ad hominem you ( is AI) would always defend Apple and redudcto ad absudrum even if they stole babies.
Shoot, I avoid paying taxes every day. I rather pay for something on amazon and wait for it to ship to save on paying sales tax.
You realize that sales tax is a state issue. Some states don't even have a sales tax.
I legitimately want to pay as low a percentage of my income as Apple pays. The government will just use it to buy more drones to kill people
If that was the only thing they used it for I'd be all for more taxes. Each time they cook off one of those hellfire missiles the world is improved a little bit more.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by winstein2010
Unfortunately this is a political witch hunt. Because Apple is very profitable, Apple will be found guilty of hiding billions of taxes, then Apple would appeal, and end up paying a small token penalty and the show will drag on for month. Apple gain nothing to testify and should just say we are sorry and we have been doing this for years and we are ready to negotiate the price being the most valuable company.
That would lend credence to the idea that Apple become Too Big To Go Unpunished.
OTOH, Wall Street Investment banks that become Too Big To Fail get a taxpayer bailout.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulMJohnson
As mentioned above, Google are doing the same thing.
Yes, but Android is "open" and Google gives free geek candy and they're not evil, so you can't make anything stick to them, ever. /s
You have to stand up to this idiocy. The government is unfortunately piloted by morons that actually believe in wealth redistribution to the lazy and unemployable.
Welcome to the EU. Clusterfxxk of laws and rules, money burning bureaucracy, while reducing democracy.
Hmm that sounds like a great book title
Quote:
Originally Posted by AZREOSpecialist
And why does anyone care what anyone in Congress has to say? This is fresh... pick on the most successful American company in history and accuse them of (gasp) following the law as written. My god, are they now saying there is a "higher moral obligation" to pay taxes that are above and beyond what is required by the IRS? And if so, why are you singling out Apple and not every other corporation in America?
These so-called "senators" are nothing but a clown show and should be treated as such.
Clowns? These people are worse than clowns. So predictable to see McCain attach himself to yet another "cause" in order to attention-whore himself. This pathetic sac of garbage should have rode into the sunset long ago, yet it seems he's desperate to define some sort of "legacy" for himself by exploiting anything and everything he can for cheap political points. This is the same fuckface that brought us Sarah Palin, and was cool with her potentially becoming President of the United States. Thats how much this guy gives a shit about this country. This is the same guy who called a press conference calling for Benghazi "answers", during which he skipped a hearing he was invited to which was meant to give those answers. The guy can't shut the **** up about Benghazi, yet he didnt utter a single word blaming the gvt for the thousands murdered on american soil, or the clusterfuck that was Iraq where thousands of americans also died. But suddenly he gives a shit about 3 dead americans across the world when it suits his political needs. This guy wants to lecture Apple?
"A company that has found remarkable success by harnessing American ingenuity and the opportunities afforded by the U.S. economy should not be shifting its profits overseas to avoid the payment of U.S. tax, purposefully depriving the American people of revenue."
What the **** does that even mean? Apple found remarkable success by being remarkable. What does "American ingenuity" have to do with it? Shifting it's profits overseas? Apple does not shift a single fucking dollar it earns in the US overseas. The $$ it EARNS overseas, it has full rights to keep it there. Besides the record amount of tax dollars Apple gives the US, it has CREATED enormous wealth and employment through not only it's Apple stores, but the countless companies who exist today solely to provide for Apple's ecosystem, be it accessories for Apple's hardware products, or developers. Apple is one of those companies who's success empowers and enables the success of others. Yet these vindictive fucks, like McCain, couldn't give 2 shits about that, preferring to skewer the company to get themselves into the limelight. The fact that Tim Cook is attending this hearing will bring it infinitely more publicity than it should. At the end of the day, I don't see him coming out as a winner. These senators are more practised at this dog and pony show, which is exactly what this is, and their propaganda and twisting of the truth in order to promote themselves will outweigh the facts themselves, and any sort of reason and beneficial reform that Cook might put forward.
Maybe congress should take their ball and go home like a bunch of whining babies. I'm so sick of US Congress, the most mismanaged entity in the world, demanding more money because they can't balance a checkbook. My grandkids are going to be paying for today's Congress' mistakes.
I hope some chest-thumping congressman makes an ass out of himself in the morning and it's on CNN by noon. Someone please DVR it and upload it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69
Isn't it nice how the Democrates get your vote and once in office screw you over royally! The last thing we need in this country is more taxes going to the welfare crowd.
I'm not American, but isn't Senator McCain a Republican? I daresay that any extra revenue that the US Government collects from this will not be going towards public welfare, more likely the military or to corporate welfare.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm
This is another silly argument that comes up in these threads. I don't feel like arguing about Apple here, but writing off direct expenses or depreciating equipment has nothing to do with the line of questioning. I suspect you took the notebook as a section 179 expense. It's aimed at small businesses, and you are supposed to use that. You did not set up a foreign entity to buy the notebook and lease it back to you at an inflated rate. That would be an example of something that would be scrutinized. If they started to mess with the pricing paid from one subsidiary to another to move cash around, that would be scrutinized. There's a difference between writing expenses as expenses and fabricating them. Again this has nothing to do with accusations. I just wanted to point out your terrible analogy, which one person always makes anytime this topic comes up.
Nonsense. It's a valid argument. I'm doing what I can to minimize my tax-hit so I buy stuff to lower my taxable gross income. I buy a laptop, some buy hummers, all reduce their tax exposure. Do I (they) need it? Not really. It it legal? Sure. Is it morally correct? Grey area. I could have just pretend to be patriotic and just pay more taxes so that the money goes to needed services, military, of Congress' fat a$$. That's what people think Apple should do.
Apple did nothing wrong, it did nothing illegal. Congress is simply whoring themselves to the media to justify their jobs. That's all. I wished Tim Cook would just stand there and give them all the middle-finger. They have nothing on him, and they know it.
There's actually two problems, of which only one is under the control of the US.
The first problem, the one the US can't control, but is their fault, is the low tax rate in Ireland. Go take a look at which European countries needed or almost needed bailouts. Ireland is one of those. Now WHY is that? Because they seem hellbent on being "competitive" and they know damn well the only reason anyone sets up companies there is because of the low tax rate. If they were to suddenly raise the tax rates, those companies would move to the next stable country with a low tax rate.
That's no different than the reason companies in the US pick states with the lowest tax rates to setup in.
The second problem is double-taxation, and I can't figure out why any country does it. It makes no sense to tax income of a foreign entity for income earned by the foreign entity. All software companies already know that it's easy to setup a company in a foreign low-tax market and assign all the IP to that company, thereby all the income on sales is earned by that company. Repatriation of that money never needs to happen, because as far as legal jurisdictions go, that income wasn't earned by the domestic branch of the company. So it makes no sense to tax income that was already taxed in the legal jurisdiction it was earned in.
How that needs to be fixed, is a long and complicated process, but the gist of fixing the problem has to start with closing the same loopholes rich people have used to hide their wealth. Apple wouldn't be doing this if other companies and individuals weren't, and that comes down to competitive reasons, not "moral" ones. The solution really needs to be either:
a) that money can never be repatriated (those foreign companies are legally not in the US) and that money can only be sent to the US by the foreign company "paying" the parent company for services/licences, by which that money is then treated as income again to the US parent company. (which is where we are at now)
or
b) The US demands all offshore subsidiaries to be closed or be made independent of their "parent" company. Thus legally there are no offshore companies from which to "hide" income with. The offshore companies are basically turned into income trusts by which the parent owns 100% of, but has no control over. Since the owner would be collecting revenue from the foreign company, that would be subject to US tax rules.
But I have no faith in the US political system to fix anything, and what we're staring at is the elephant in the room.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cynic
Those kind of practices however remain to be dealt with by the EU (if at all) and has absolutely nothing to do with the US.
In nuce.
The one thing that stands out is that for all their posturing, this committee hasn't dared used the phrase 'tax evasion.' If they can't say 'tax evasion' then they don't have a leg to stand on.
What they are hoping to do is fix an idea in the public mind that 'tax avoidance' is illegal, which is completely untrue. So, this is nothing more than an attempt to shame Apple into paying more tax than it is legally required to do (it worked in the UK with Starbucks).
Why are they targeting Apple, and not Google, or Microsoft or GE?
Well, I hate to say this but I think that Tim Cook's actions regarding loans and dividend payouts have made him look like a CEO who can be easily swayed by external influences.
He has the chance to redress this tomorrow. If he fails then government bodies and investment analysts will spend the next ten years picking Apple clean.
Amazing reactions in this thread
Apple could be caught stealing babies and this place would defend them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tribalogical
Well, there's the great irony. The same people calling Apple out on this issue are the same people who wrote the damned tax laws to begin with. All they need to do is legislate a fix to the "problem" they created, right?
Except THAT would then deprive them of income (and campaign contributions) they enjoy today, gained so often from the people and companies practicing exactly the same behavior as Apple (and Google).
It's a sideshow. Apple is a convenient whipping post. They'll make a bunch of "caring about revenue" noise, then this too shall pass...
Anything and everything except doing what really needs to be done. Raising taxes on people like Mitt Romney for starters, so they pay a fair share of taxes (I mean, come on. Net 12%? On millions? I'd LOVE to pay only 12% on my income!). We need to close a few loopholes, and tighten up the revenue ship.
One of the problems is Apple ( and Google et. al) don't buy off Congressmen. Apples pays 35% on it's revenues in the US, thats all it owes legally. REvenue accrued outside the US, has never been an issue for the US treasury. Meanwhile vast swathes of US industry are molly-coddled, too big to fail, or subsidized when they fail, and Apple pays for a lot of that with its taxes. Congress never investigates that kind of thing because the rent-seekers depend on government, so they pay off Congressmen to turn a blind eye
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley
Amazing reactions in this thread
Apple could be caught stealing babies and this place would defend them.
What is Apple doing which is wrong?
By the way neither Apple, ( nor Google, nor Amazon) owe the UK a red cent. The campaign against all these companies in the UK is absurd nonsense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdasd
What is Apple doing which is wrong?
By the way neither Apple, ( nor Google, nor Amazon) owe the UK a red cent. The campaign against all these companies in the UK is absurd nonsense.
If they are doing nothing wrong then why are you leaping to defend them? That's what's funny about the reaction. Precious Apple is under attack from the big bad bureaucrats. The big bad bureaucrats who are incapable of doing anything anyway? And Apple create jobs! And other companies are financially creative too! And FU Europe!
No one even mentioned the UK, "By the way"
A question to those with Apple in their hearts and loins... why do you think you need to defend Apple? They seem to be doing pretty well; and they're not going to thank you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley
If they are doing nothing wrong then why are you leaping to defend them? That's what's funny about the reaction. Precious Apple is under attack from the big bad bureaucrats. The big bad bureaucrats who are incapable of doing anything anyway? And Apple create jobs! And other companies are financially creative too! And FU Europe!
No one even mentioned the UK, "By the way"
A question to those with Apple in their hearts and loins... why do you think you need to defend Apple? They seem to be doing pretty well; and they're not going to thank you.
I have attacked Apple plenty of times in this forum, and have been labelled a "troll" even though I have been here since 2003. Do a quick search of recent posts, where I attack the present management. Most of the last posts have been critical. I've gotten more critical this year, in fact.
On this issue I would defend them, (and Google, Amazon or MicroSoft), particularly against predatory British bureaucrats. ( American senators have some logic, the British claim on Irish tax is absurd). I mentioned Britain because you are British, and was responding to you.
Also, an adhominem is not a debate. You claimed that Apple is doing something wrong. To prove it you need to state what you think is wrong, so an actual debate can ensue.
Instead you engaged in two logical fallacies - ad hominem you ( is AI) would always defend Apple and redudcto ad absudrum even if they stole babies.
So get an argument.
If that was the only thing they used it for I'd be all for more taxes. Each time they cook off one of those hellfire missiles the world is improved a little bit more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley
If they are doing nothing wrong then why are you leaping to defend them?
If they are doing something wrong then why don't you say what it is?