At least I now understand the reasoning behind the song "When Irish Eyes are Smiling." They're happy Apple is funneling billions of dollars through their country.
...That's why there's this investigation. It's not inherently suggesting that the companies/people being interviewed have done anything illegal or immoral, it's just fact finding as part of good due process….
I think the kind of innuendo that these Senators are spreading goes far beyond a fact finding process. They are clearly stating things that are not law because they are hobbled when it comes to doing the right thing. A complete overhaul of the US tax code. That is what is needed but because of all the tax attorneys and MBAs that make a very comfortable living working in this arena (i.e., wasting court time and money on our nonsense tax code) it will never happen. I believe a flat tax is the way to go but there are always those that feel there is at least one group that needs an exception.
Right now these hearings are shining a little light on corporate America which takes some of the spotlight off the miserable job that our politicians are doing (or should I say not doing).
Until laws change Apple has a fiduciary responsibility to stock holders to make as much as they legally can -- which most certainly includes minimizing any and all tax debt. They damn sure shouldn't have to justify it by saying they pay more than other corporations or by touting the number of jobs that exist because of their success.
"The Company’s effective tax rates were approximately 25.2%, 24.2%, and 24.4% for 2012, 2011, and 2010, respectively. The Company’s effective rates for these periods differ from the statutory federal income tax rate of 35% due primarily to certain undistributed foreign earnings for which no U.S. taxes are provided because such earnings are intended to be indefinitely reinvested outside the U.S."
This was in response to a NYT article that did the math and came up with Apples real tax rate being 9.8%, Forbes I believe came up with somewhere around 14%
Apples own account of 25% is obviously going to be using whatever methods skew the data in their favor the most- but Tim is now claiming it was 30.5%, so maybe they found another method.
Not intending to point a finger at Apple or anyone in particular here. This sure reminds me of the old adage "figures don't lie by liars sure know how to figure". I think from the range of numbers presented it definitely depends on you point of view.
Some folks prefer to see with a lens to Picasso's cubism rather than Michelangelo's realism. I think our current government is more inclined to the former than the later.
I think that EVERYONE here would agree that "something" is better than "nothing." So...using the superpower known as "Common Sense," I can solve this problem with the following implementation of that power:
1) Find out what Apple paid in Ireland.
2) Fix the US Tax Code to where Apple would pay $1 million LESS in taxes if they moved their practices back to the USA.
3) The US Treasury would gain BILLIONS in taxes and the Irish Treasury would LOSE BILLIONS in taxes.
That "something" is better than the "nothing" the US is getting now.
Before you start bashing me for over-simplifying the process - let me apply another dose of "Common Sense" to the equation. GET RID of the idiots that are making this COMPLICATED.
Now...move along...these aren't the droids you're looking for!
The truth of the matter is that Apple, like many other corporations, are braking the law! They have and are using fraudulent legal entities for the sole purpose of avoiding pay taxes. The finding of fact presented in the subcommittee's report are correct. Apple's Ireland entities solely exists a means of funneling incomes into a non-US corporate entities for the sole purpose of those incomes from being taxed within the US. Apple could not provide any legal justifications for why these companies exist as they serve no other purpose than being tax-havens.
This is is illegal folks. Like it or not, we all have a legal and moral obligation to pay our fair share of taxes. We may not like paying taxes, but we all must pay our fair share. Apple, like MANY OTHER CORPORATIONS, are not doing that.
Apple's foreign corporations are controlled and operated by it's parent company. The fact that they are separate legal entities means nothing when in fact they are truly operate as one.
The true problem is that the Government is not willing to spend the $1 billion-plus dollars it will take to successfully prosecute this case all the way up to the Supreme Court in order to collect the billions its owed by many US Corporations.
The truth of the matter is that Apple, like many other corporations, are braking the law! They have and are using fraudulent legal entities for the sole purpose of avoiding pay taxes. The finding of fact presented in the subcommittee's report are correct. Apple's Ireland entities solely exists a means of funneling incomes into a non-US corporate entities for the sole purpose of those incomes from being taxed within the US. Apple could not provide any legal justifications for why these companies exist as they serve no other purpose than being tax-havens.
This is is illegal folks. Like it or not, we all have a legal and moral obligation to pay our fair share of taxes. We may not like paying taxes, but we all must pay our fair share. Apple, like MANY OTHER CORPORATIONS, are not doing that.
Apple's foreign corporations are controlled and operated by it's parent company. The fact that they are separate legal entities means nothing when in fact they are truly operate as one.
The true problem is that the Government is not willing to spend the $1 billion-plus dollars it will take to successfully prosecute this case all the way up to the Supreme Court in order to collect the billions its owed by many US Corporations.
That's some bold "truth" there, with little in the way of facts to back it up.
The "truth" is that the report is designed to CHANGE the tax laws, seeing as how Apple et. al. are following the letter of the law while perhaps ignoring the spirit. If you're following the letter of the law, it's technically not illegal, although you could argue that it's morally wrong. You'll notice the report doesn't use terms like "tax evasion"; instead, it is designed to cause a moral uproar so the laws can be changed.
Of course, the question of morality is interesting. It it morally correct for the U.S. Government to desire tax revenues on ALL revenue generated by Apple, even when it is legitimately generated overseas? Because you know that's what they want. To take it farther, can a corporation have morals? In a capitalistic society (which everyone seems to like), a corporation's sole purpose is to make money and reduce expenses, in every legal way possible.
And as a final thought, you could also debate the morals of government politicians creating laws that they themselves step around. What's their tax rate?
That's some bold "truth" there, with little in the way of facts to back it up.
The "truth" is that the report is designed to CHANGE the tax laws, seeing as how Apple et. al. are following the letter of the law while perhaps ignoring the spirit. If you're following the letter of the law, it's technically not illegal, although you could argue that it's morally wrong. You'll notice the report doesn't use terms like "tax evasion"; instead, it is designed to cause a moral uproar so the laws can be changed.
Of course, the question of morality is interesting. It it morally correct for the U.S. Government to desire tax revenues on ALL revenue generated by Apple, even when it is legitimately generated overseas? Because you know that's what they want. To take it farther, can a corporation have morals? In a capitalistic society (which everyone seems to like), a corporation's sole purpose is to make money and reduce expenses, in every legal way possible.
And as a final thought, you could also debate the morals of government politicians creating laws that they themselves step around. What's their tax rate?
Morals.
I don't believe the facts are in much dispute. Even by Apple's own admission, these corporations exist solely as a means of managing their foreign profits. If said corporations were founded in America, those taxes will be subjected to US taxes, but since the companies were founded in Ireland, they are outside of US tax law and apparently even Irish tax law.
The funny thing is those same funds are deposited in bank accounts held in America and it is Apple, Inc. that owns and pays taxes on the interest paid to those accounts. So what purpose do these corporations serve? Try as they might to find some alternative legal justification for their existence, I think we all smell something rotting on a hot sunny day.
Corporations are expected to make as much as they legally can. But is what many multinationals doing legal or not. As the report indicates they may not be. Unless the IRS chooses to pursue this we will never know.
And corporations may be able to get away with illegal activity because the Government is unwilling to pursue the matter. But what is so new about that...
Personally, I believe it is immoral for anyone to make laws for another that they themselves are not subjected to.
I think that EVERYONE here would agree that "something" is better than "nothing." So...using the superpower known as "Common Sense," I can solve this problem with the following implementation of that power:
1) Find out what Apple paid in Ireland.
2) Fix the US Tax Code to where Apple would pay $1 million LESS in taxes if they moved their practices back to the USA.
3) The US Treasury would gain BILLIONS in taxes and the Irish Treasury would LOSE BILLIONS in taxes.
That "something" is better than the "nothing" the US is getting now.
Before you start bashing me for over-simplifying the process - let me apply another dose of "Common Sense" to the equation. GET RID of the idiots that are making this COMPLICATED.
Now...move along...these aren't the droids you're looking for!
This doesn't work, since many foreign countries are willing to charge ridiculously low tax rates for tax shelter corporations to become a safe haven for such entities. Providing legal residence to a tax shelter involves hardly ever government services or expenses, so for Ireleand, Bermuda or Cayman Islands, it's good business even if they only charge 1% or less tax if they can move billions of dollars of profit away from US.
I don't believe the facts are in much dispute. Even by Apple's own admission, these corporations exist solely as a means of managing their foreign profits. If said corporations were founded in America, those taxes will be subjected to US taxes, but since the companies were founded in Ireland, they are outside of US tax law and apparently even Irish tax law.
The funny thing is those same funds are deposited in bank accounts held in America and it is Apple, Inc. that owns and pays taxes on the interest paid to those accounts. So what purpose do these corporations serve? Try as they might to find some alternative legal justification for their existence, I think we all smell something rotting on a hot sunny day.
Corporations are expected to make as much as they legally can. But is what many multinationals doing legal or not. As the report indicates they may not be. Unless the IRS chooses to pursue this we will never know.
And corporations may be able to get away with illegal activity because the Government is unwilling to pursue the matter. But what is so new about that...
Personally, I believe it is immoral for anyone to make laws for another that they themselves are not subjected to.
Why should Apple pay U.S. taxes on money it made by selling products overseas through it's overseas offices that have employees overseas? Who's the greedy one? It's not like Apple is shipping products from Cupertino over to France. They have corporate offices, warehouses, supply chains, etc. in France, etc. Money is made there and stays there.
And it's not illegal. Apple has IRS agents pretty much stationed in their offices and are pretty much audited round the clock. According to the existing laws, it is legal. That IS a fact.
The senators are getting crafty by using terms like "Tax Avoidance" (which sounds illegal but isn't), "shifting" (not money, mind you), and other terms that sound worse than they are because they are grandstanding. Being a politician is all about LOOKING like you're doing something so you can either get re-elected or "build your legacy".
What… does that have to do with anything being discussed here?
Apple are being accused of exploiting tax loopholes in offshore havens. They're a multinational corporation. This is a global issue. That's this thread. Right here.
Don't understand why that would be difficult to understand, but maybe I'm missing something.
Apple are being accused of exploiting tax loopholes in offshore havens. They're a multinational corporation. This is a global issue. That's this thread. Right here.
Don't understand why that would be difficult to understand, but maybe I'm missing something.
… Apple has done nothing illegal in any country in which they operate. They want to bring the money to the US but refuse to be taxed twice. It's a US issue.
That's part of what's going on, but discussions are broader than that, and there are similar discussions goings on around the world which are not directly related, but have common ground in the international taxation of multinational corporations. The US may see this as a national issue which will be dealt with nationally, but it's a problem being seen throughout the world in one way or another. Tax havens are disruptive to all economies.
Furthermore, exploitation often isn't illegal. Lots of things that aren't good aren't illegal. And things that are legal can become illegal when it becomes clear how exploitative and how not-good they are.
PS. This is a very broad statement. Apple have been proven to have done illegal things in the recent past. They haven't been proven to have done anything illegal in their finances would be a truer statement.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowley
...That's why there's this investigation. It's not inherently suggesting that the companies/people being interviewed have done anything illegal or immoral, it's just fact finding as part of good due process….
I think the kind of innuendo that these Senators are spreading goes far beyond a fact finding process. They are clearly stating things that are not law because they are hobbled when it comes to doing the right thing. A complete overhaul of the US tax code. That is what is needed but because of all the tax attorneys and MBAs that make a very comfortable living working in this arena (i.e., wasting court time and money on our nonsense tax code) it will never happen. I believe a flat tax is the way to go but there are always those that feel there is at least one group that needs an exception.
Right now these hearings are shining a little light on corporate America which takes some of the spotlight off the miserable job that our politicians are doing (or should I say not doing).
Until laws change Apple has a fiduciary responsibility to stock holders to make as much as they legally can -- which most certainly includes minimizing any and all tax debt. They damn sure shouldn't have to justify it by saying they pay more than other corporations or by touting the number of jobs that exist because of their success.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frood
"The Company’s effective tax rates were approximately 25.2%, 24.2%, and 24.4% for 2012, 2011, and 2010, respectively. The Company’s effective rates for these periods differ from the statutory federal income tax rate of 35% due primarily to certain undistributed foreign earnings for which no U.S. taxes are provided because such earnings are intended to be indefinitely reinvested outside the U.S."
This was in response to a NYT article that did the math and came up with Apples real tax rate being 9.8%, Forbes I believe came up with somewhere around 14%
Apples own account of 25% is obviously going to be using whatever methods skew the data in their favor the most- but Tim is now claiming it was 30.5%, so maybe they found another method.
Not intending to point a finger at Apple or anyone in particular here. This sure reminds me of the old adage "figures don't lie by liars sure know how to figure". I think from the range of numbers presented it definitely depends on you point of view.
Some folks prefer to see with a lens to Picasso's cubism rather than Michelangelo's realism. I think our current government is more inclined to the former than the later.
I think that EVERYONE here would agree that "something" is better than "nothing." So...using the superpower known as "Common Sense," I can solve this problem with the following implementation of that power:
1) Find out what Apple paid in Ireland.
2) Fix the US Tax Code to where Apple would pay $1 million LESS in taxes if they moved their practices back to the USA.
3) The US Treasury would gain BILLIONS in taxes and the Irish Treasury would LOSE BILLIONS in taxes.
That "something" is better than the "nothing" the US is getting now.
Before you start bashing me for over-simplifying the process - let me apply another dose of "Common Sense" to the equation. GET RID of the idiots that are making this COMPLICATED.
Now...move along...these aren't the droids you're looking for!
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69
Have you looked at recent budgets? The vast majority of the budget goes to welfare.
Did you see how much public money went to bailing out Wall Street after the GFC whilst ordinary people lost their homes?
Originally Posted by reefoid
This is a global issue, not a US only issue.
Problems with US tax code and hypocrisy of US Senators is… a global issue?
Exploitative tax arrangements of multinational corporations is a global issue. Keep up Jim.
Stealing babies is illegal. Exploiting loopholes is not. We all try to minimize paying taxes. We look for deductions.
Do you? Must be exhausting.
This is is illegal folks. Like it or not, we all have a legal and moral obligation to pay our fair share of taxes. We may not like paying taxes, but we all must pay our fair share. Apple, like MANY OTHER CORPORATIONS, are not doing that.
Apple's foreign corporations are controlled and operated by it's parent company. The fact that they are separate legal entities means nothing when in fact they are truly operate as one.
The true problem is that the Government is not willing to spend the $1 billion-plus dollars it will take to successfully prosecute this case all the way up to the Supreme Court in order to collect the billions its owed by many US Corporations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phantasm
The truth of the matter is that Apple, like many other corporations, are braking the law! They have and are using fraudulent legal entities for the sole purpose of avoiding pay taxes. The finding of fact presented in the subcommittee's report are correct. Apple's Ireland entities solely exists a means of funneling incomes into a non-US corporate entities for the sole purpose of those incomes from being taxed within the US. Apple could not provide any legal justifications for why these companies exist as they serve no other purpose than being tax-havens.
This is is illegal folks. Like it or not, we all have a legal and moral obligation to pay our fair share of taxes. We may not like paying taxes, but we all must pay our fair share. Apple, like MANY OTHER CORPORATIONS, are not doing that.
Apple's foreign corporations are controlled and operated by it's parent company. The fact that they are separate legal entities means nothing when in fact they are truly operate as one.
The true problem is that the Government is not willing to spend the $1 billion-plus dollars it will take to successfully prosecute this case all the way up to the Supreme Court in order to collect the billions its owed by many US Corporations.
That's some bold "truth" there, with little in the way of facts to back it up.
The "truth" is that the report is designed to CHANGE the tax laws, seeing as how Apple et. al. are following the letter of the law while perhaps ignoring the spirit. If you're following the letter of the law, it's technically not illegal, although you could argue that it's morally wrong. You'll notice the report doesn't use terms like "tax evasion"; instead, it is designed to cause a moral uproar so the laws can be changed.
Of course, the question of morality is interesting. It it morally correct for the U.S. Government to desire tax revenues on ALL revenue generated by Apple, even when it is legitimately generated overseas? Because you know that's what they want. To take it farther, can a corporation have morals? In a capitalistic society (which everyone seems to like), a corporation's sole purpose is to make money and reduce expenses, in every legal way possible.
And as a final thought, you could also debate the morals of government politicians creating laws that they themselves step around. What's their tax rate?
Morals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pendergast
That's some bold "truth" there, with little in the way of facts to back it up.
The "truth" is that the report is designed to CHANGE the tax laws, seeing as how Apple et. al. are following the letter of the law while perhaps ignoring the spirit. If you're following the letter of the law, it's technically not illegal, although you could argue that it's morally wrong. You'll notice the report doesn't use terms like "tax evasion"; instead, it is designed to cause a moral uproar so the laws can be changed.
Of course, the question of morality is interesting. It it morally correct for the U.S. Government to desire tax revenues on ALL revenue generated by Apple, even when it is legitimately generated overseas? Because you know that's what they want. To take it farther, can a corporation have morals? In a capitalistic society (which everyone seems to like), a corporation's sole purpose is to make money and reduce expenses, in every legal way possible.
And as a final thought, you could also debate the morals of government politicians creating laws that they themselves step around. What's their tax rate?
Morals.
I don't believe the facts are in much dispute. Even by Apple's own admission, these corporations exist solely as a means of managing their foreign profits. If said corporations were founded in America, those taxes will be subjected to US taxes, but since the companies were founded in Ireland, they are outside of US tax law and apparently even Irish tax law.
The funny thing is those same funds are deposited in bank accounts held in America and it is Apple, Inc. that owns and pays taxes on the interest paid to those accounts. So what purpose do these corporations serve? Try as they might to find some alternative legal justification for their existence, I think we all smell something rotting on a hot sunny day.
Corporations are expected to make as much as they legally can. But is what many multinationals doing legal or not. As the report indicates they may not be. Unless the IRS chooses to pursue this we will never know.
And corporations may be able to get away with illegal activity because the Government is unwilling to pursue the matter. But what is so new about that...
Personally, I believe it is immoral for anyone to make laws for another that they themselves are not subjected to.
Originally Posted by Crowley
Exploitative tax arrangements of multinational corporations is a global issue.
What… does that have to do with anything being discussed here?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
I really wish that people who don't have any concept of subjects would stop posting ridiculous comments like that.
There is no legal way for you to do what you're describing. Furthermore, it's absolutely nothing like what Apple does.
It's true that there is no legal way for an individual to do that.
But it is perfectly legal for corporations to do that. And this is exactly what Apple, Google and many other corporations do...
Quote:
Originally Posted by ablepatriot
I think that EVERYONE here would agree that "something" is better than "nothing." So...using the superpower known as "Common Sense," I can solve this problem with the following implementation of that power:
1) Find out what Apple paid in Ireland.
2) Fix the US Tax Code to where Apple would pay $1 million LESS in taxes if they moved their practices back to the USA.
3) The US Treasury would gain BILLIONS in taxes and the Irish Treasury would LOSE BILLIONS in taxes.
That "something" is better than the "nothing" the US is getting now.
Before you start bashing me for over-simplifying the process - let me apply another dose of "Common Sense" to the equation. GET RID of the idiots that are making this COMPLICATED.
Now...move along...these aren't the droids you're looking for!
This doesn't work, since many foreign countries are willing to charge ridiculously low tax rates for tax shelter corporations to become a safe haven for such entities. Providing legal residence to a tax shelter involves hardly ever government services or expenses, so for Ireleand, Bermuda or Cayman Islands, it's good business even if they only charge 1% or less tax if they can move billions of dollars of profit away from US.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phantasm
I don't believe the facts are in much dispute. Even by Apple's own admission, these corporations exist solely as a means of managing their foreign profits. If said corporations were founded in America, those taxes will be subjected to US taxes, but since the companies were founded in Ireland, they are outside of US tax law and apparently even Irish tax law.
The funny thing is those same funds are deposited in bank accounts held in America and it is Apple, Inc. that owns and pays taxes on the interest paid to those accounts. So what purpose do these corporations serve? Try as they might to find some alternative legal justification for their existence, I think we all smell something rotting on a hot sunny day.
Corporations are expected to make as much as they legally can. But is what many multinationals doing legal or not. As the report indicates they may not be. Unless the IRS chooses to pursue this we will never know.
And corporations may be able to get away with illegal activity because the Government is unwilling to pursue the matter. But what is so new about that...
Personally, I believe it is immoral for anyone to make laws for another that they themselves are not subjected to.
Why should Apple pay U.S. taxes on money it made by selling products overseas through it's overseas offices that have employees overseas? Who's the greedy one? It's not like Apple is shipping products from Cupertino over to France. They have corporate offices, warehouses, supply chains, etc. in France, etc. Money is made there and stays there.
And it's not illegal. Apple has IRS agents pretty much stationed in their offices and are pretty much audited round the clock. According to the existing laws, it is legal. That IS a fact.
The senators are getting crafty by using terms like "Tax Avoidance" (which sounds illegal but isn't), "shifting" (not money, mind you), and other terms that sound worse than they are because they are grandstanding. Being a politician is all about LOOKING like you're doing something so you can either get re-elected or "build your legacy".
Don't understand why that would be difficult to understand, but maybe I'm missing something.
Originally Posted by Crowley
Apple are being accused of exploiting tax loopholes in offshore havens. They're a multinational corporation. This is a global issue. That's this thread. Right here.
Don't understand why that would be difficult to understand, but maybe I'm missing something.
… Apple has done nothing illegal in any country in which they operate. They want to bring the money to the US but refuse to be taxed twice. It's a US issue.
Furthermore, exploitation often isn't illegal. Lots of things that aren't good aren't illegal. And things that are legal can become illegal when it becomes clear how exploitative and how not-good they are.