For my 680 MX, if you have the right app, you can crunch some decent numbers.
I wonder if Open CL is going to get some serious industry momentum behind it... It looks like a really tasty tech' if you can get Apple, AMD and software devs optimising it to squeeze all the performance out of hardware.
I put your price into a currency convertor. If Apple could hit the UK price above...with the added value of a 2nd gpu and a hex core...with SSD
You'd have to add the 20% tax on top unfortunately. If they stick with $2499, that will be £1999. If they perhaps have a single GPU option, maybe lower margins, they could hit $1999, which would be sold at £1499 including tax but I don't think they'll do that. The original Mac Pro price was $2199 = £1699.
I don't think it's such a big problem though because people will sell used ones with Applecare after a couple of years and they'll hit that price point. Even Apple 15% refurbs will be £1699.
Dell sells W5000 for $343, V7900 for $554 - both below retail. Retail prices are almost 25% higher, which suggests Dell might be selling GPUs at wholesale prices and making the profit from everything else.
HP sells W7000 for $925.
I had too trim a bit but needed to hilight this part because of this pricing issue. In a nut shell I don't think Dell is selling wholesale but rather has cut a deal that allows the to make a profit at a much lower price than the supposed retail prices imply. It is fairly well known that the GPUs in the workstation cards aren't hugely different than run of the mill desktop chips so there is significant price inflation in the workstation cards.
Now take into account the price padding and then the custom boards for this machine and you really have no idea what Apple is paying for each GPU card. The cost to Apple might be a few dollars over the cost of a desktop board or it could match the price of a tricked out desktop card. We really have no way to know.
For AMD and Apple they could bring this to market far cheaper than current PCI Express card solutions and simply say it is a custom product. PC manufactures might not like it but it is pretty obvious this is a custom effort. The other thing here is that there are no "workstation drivers" for Apples computers, since that is part of the justification for the high prices of these cards in the workstation world, another element in the PC world pricing scheme drops out. On top of all of that the potential for volume here is pretty significant, Apple could move more of these chips in a month than AMD does in a quarter. Ten thousand a quarter ought to be easy.
In a nut shell here, while we can speculate it will be very hard to hit the actual price point for this new Mac Pro. There are just too many variables.
It gives a very good indication and breakdown of where Apple maybe going from Base to Highend.
You know. Your posts would make a very nice foundation for articles. You make the info' really accessible and well reasoned. Very approachable editorial style. Shame you don't have your own Apple website making a mint off ads.
I'm not sure these guys are making a mint. Running a web site is a lot of work. I'd have to agree that at times some of Marvin's responses are very well written. However sometimes the view points aren't mainstream.
Seriously, it's nice to see an in-depth analysis of where the Pro will be come September/Fall. Sure, I'd like Apple to be more aggressive with an entry model with margins closer to 20% (...it was quite an eye opener on some of your figures to see a break down of the kind of mark ups Apple have on each component! On the cpu/gpus it's almost eye watering.) At the least we can assume the Pro prices will fall about the same. Not a disaster when you consider the computation power at hand.
Remember though that Apple never pays retail for components. In fact Apples volumes are such that I would suspect that they are getting some of the best prices in the industry.
As for the new Mac Pro, everything about this machine indicates to me that Apple wants to get as much computational power into users hands as possible at an industry leading cost to those users. We might be very surprised when this machine ships. Consider this, when the machine ships Apple will likely become AMDs single biggest partner when it comes to workstation GPUs.
Though I'd like a 512 gig SSD, dual GPU, 8 gigs of ram Mac Pro hex core dropping for £1495-ish. Even top end iMac territory would be nice... eg £1695 is it? *tries to remember. They could really kick ass with the above config' and get workstations hitting the prosumer mainstream. Even Wizard might buy one? :P
If only Wizard had money to throw away on new computing hardware right now! I could see myself going in the direction of a Mac Pro next year though. However if Apple release a XMac variant of this machine, that is a machine with desktop processors and GPUs at a reasonable price, I'd probably go that route.
Keep it coming. Great basis for speculation and discussion until they're actually released.
Lemon Bon Bon.
I just wonder when the release date is. I'm still thinking after September.
For my 680 MX, if you have the right app, you can crunch some decent numbers.
I wonder if Open CL is going to get some serious industry momentum behind it... It looks like a really tasty tech' if you can get Apple, AMD and software devs optimising it to squeeze all the performance out of hardware.
Lemon Bon Bon.
OpenCL does have serious industry momentum behind it. I'm not sure why people think the opposite.
The problem I suspect is that people don't understand OpenCL or GPU computing well. GPU computing isn't a replacement for your CPU. As such the problem space has to be amendable to GPU compute. Even if the problem space is amendable to GPU compute, porting existing apps can be very involved. The adoption of OpenCL is widespread but maybe not marketed real well.
The cost to Apple might be a few dollars over the cost of a desktop board or it could match the price of a tricked out desktop card. We really have no way to know.
The GPUs are really the biggest variable but the price you've mentioned in the past is below $1500:
There's not much point in putting in a custom desktop motherboard, desktop RAM and a desktop GPU because it won't scale up enough to outperform the iMac and it will undercut it. The MP wouldn't need to use different parts though to come in cheaper.
The Mac Pro site says "dual GPUs standard" so they're going with two no matter what happens. They can offer lower dual-FirePros like the V3900/V4900 (not sure if they support Crossfire) like Dell/HP and that would help get to a lower price but the performance is fairly low (right at the bottom of the charts):
Is it worth building a custom GPU to get that performance? The desktop 7970s are around the same price as the W5000 so not much cost benefit there. It would be great if they did make a cheaper model but you can say that about every machine they make. Going by what they've done in the past, it's not likely that we'll see another Mac Pro below $1999.
I think $1999 would be a decent starting price given that you have to buy a display but I wouldn't buy a Mac Pro at that price with a V3900 when the iMac with a 680MX is so much faster than it. The only way a Mac Pro will be faster than the iMac and justify the higher price is with dual W5000.
Intel says Q3 (July-September) for E5-2600v2 and they have an event on September 10th (Moscone Center too). I highly doubt it will be before September 10th - I think they'll also be showing off Thunderbolt 2.
Wow, you guys sure do your homework. The more I read the more I'm impressed with the new Mac Pro. I just wish I could justify the cost. My current hobby workstation is an eBay bought HP Z800 with 2 Xeon X5660, HP 32GB ECC (this took a while to acquire, I wanted all HP memory without paying HP prices), 2 Tesla M1060's, HP Nvidia Quadro 4000 (I traded my old Thinkpad X201 for it, boooh I miss it though ). Almost all of the parts were bought separately but total cost was just a little over 2200. The Xeons came out of a non-functioning IBM server that I picked up from a hedge fund (Man Investment) computer auction, paid 300CHF for it, stripped out the CPU's and HD's. The two Tesla cards are my pride and joy though, I paid less then 250 for the two of them (I started out with just one but the price and benefit was just to tempting to stay at just one), God I love eBay. The OS I use is CentOS which is perfect for the Tesla. The amount of power those cards bring is just staggering, converting DVD Mpeg2 rips to MP4 takes minutes, Blender rendering is the best though, what takes a CPU 30 minutes takes the Tesla cards seconds. This HP Frankenstein's monster isn't finished though, I only have one 600GB SAS 15,000RPM drive, I would like to have 3 more to do a raid 5 setup but their expensive (200 a piece) so I'm watching eBay for a good deal on 3 (if anyone sees any please let me know, I would prefer HP drives but I would take Hitachi or IBM). Now my machine is incredibly, ludicrously, insanely fast, so I can only imagine what the new Mac Pro will bring to the table. It took a while to collect all of the parts and configure correctly, so was it worth it, absolutely, the savings were just to overwhelming, it would have cost 3 or more grand more to buy new. So knowing this I just can't justify a new Mac Pro, even though I would really, really like to have one.
On a side note, AMD FirePro's are pretty awesome cards but the Quadro's can use Open CL and CUDA, where as the FirePro's can only use Open CL. I think I would prefer a card that I didn't have to choose.
OpenCL is portable, CUDA is nVidia only. However, being an independent language, CUDA is much more powerful and has a bunch of really good tools.
Ease of use -- OpenCL is easier to use out of the box, but once you setup the CUDA coding environment it's almost like coding in C.
Community and Documentation -- both have extensive documentation and examples, however I think CUDA has better.
Performance -- CUDA allows for greater control, hence can be better fine-tuned for higher performance.
On a side note, AMD FirePro's are pretty awesome cards but the Quadro's can use Open CL and CUDA, where as the FirePro's can only use Open CL. I think I would prefer a card that I didn't have to choose.
OpenCL is portable, CUDA is nVidia only. However, being an independent language, CUDA is much more powerful and has a bunch of really good tools.
Ease of use -- OpenCL is easier to use out of the box, but once you setup the CUDA coding environment it's almost like coding in C.
Community and Documentation -- both have extensive documentation and examples, however I think CUDA has better.
Performance -- CUDA allows for greater control, hence can be better fine-tuned for higher performance.
You also have dozens of not hundreds of hours of shopping, going to auctions, assembly and test. If you value your time, this means you have an additional cost of $2400 to $6000 in just time to save $3000. That is why I no longer do the Build Your Own stuff. I used to find it tons of fun but anymore, I just need the machine to do my work and have fun (but I no longer consider putting together computers "fun" like I used to).
You also have dozens of not hundreds of hours of shopping, going to auctions, assembly and test. If you value your time, this means you have an additional cost of $2400 to $6000 in just time to save $3000. That is why I no longer do the Build Your Own stuff. I used to find it tons of fun but anymore, I just need the machine to do my work and have fun (but I no longer consider putting together computers "fun" like I used to).
Your right but as I stated before this is a hobby machine, if I purchased a new Mac Pro it would also be a hobby machine. It took a long time to find and assemble my beast and I enjoyed every moment of it. I can fully understand that it's not for everyone, most people just don't possess the skills or time to do what I did so a Mac Pro is defiantly perfect for them.
Yer nuts : ) Anything near that would make it a no brainer impulse buy for even people who don't need what it offers, and Apple has never done that.
It'll be expensive enough to give pause to those who don't require it.
The current Mac Pro price comparison is pointless because there's been zero market for it for literally years given how we've been waiting for an upgrade since forever and MacBook Pros have come so far in the meantime.
There will be more of a premium attached to it.
Leo Laporte has been guessing that it will cost around $3,000—$4,000.
I just realized (though someone might have before)...
The design of the MacPro is a great departure from the rest of the line, which also means a big departure from Apple IO devices: the trackpad, mouse and the keyboards.
Will we see a redesign of at least a keyboard that will match the MP? (I think a new display is highly likely as well)
And, could the new design elements shown in the MP lead to major changes in the iMac and or Mac mini?
Anyone artistically inclined ready to try a mockup?
Will we see a redesign of at least a keyboard that will match the MP? (I think a new display is highly likely as well)
And, could the new design elements shown in the MP lead to major changes in the iMac and or Mac mini?
The current keyboards are cut-outs from the iMac chassis. I think the interior black metal on the Mac Pro could work ok for a black laptop but I get the feeling the reflective surface is a big part of the Mac Pro aesthetic, which doesn't translate well to the other form factors. The glossy top is a lid and none of the other form factors have an equivalent of a removable lid. The laptops could have shiny outer shells with matte inner shells I suppose but it might end up looking like glossy black plastic PCs.
I was a little disappointed to see that it wasn't silver as I think the light shade of metal they use is really unique to their brand but it still looks nice in black just like the iPhone looks nice in black metal.
Leo Laporte has been guessing that it will cost around $3,000—$4,000.
I am going to go ahead and assume you are taking this from that 'netcast' video he had up the week of the new Mac Pro being announced…
This would be the same netcast where neither he, nor any of the three other people in the room, nor the guy that was also 'there' via video chat ; could be bothered to correct themselves when one of them stated that the new Mac Pro had a bunch of USB & FireWire ports for expansion…
Yeah, they could not recognize that Phil made a verbal mistake in the keynote…
Laporte then went on to denigrate the machine due to its compact size, and then suggest that it would be nothing more than a stylish HTPC, but overpriced…
Apple is not going to go thru the effort of R&D-ing this thing just to overprice the entry point and lose more pro customers to linux or windows…
You also have dozens of not hundreds of hours of shopping, going to auctions, assembly and test. If you value your time, this means you have an additional cost of $2400 to $6000 in just time to save $3000. That is why I no longer do the Build Your Own stuff. I used to find it tons of fun but anymore, I just need the machine to do my work and have fun (but I no longer consider putting together computers "fun" like I used to).
Having fun and getting a bit of enjoyment out of recycling isn't bad at all. I've done the same myself , but like you have aged to the point where I'd rather put my energies into something else.
In any event a DIY discussion, especially one done around salvaged hardware, doesn't really apply in this case. If you are really good at it salvage can be had for penny's on the dollar. That has nothing to do with buying new hardware though.
I am going to go ahead and assume you are taking this from that 'netcast' video he had up the week of the new Mac Pro being announced…
This would be the same netcast where neither he, nor any of the three other people in the room, nor the guy that was also 'there' via video chat ; could be bothered to correct themselves when one of them stated that the new Mac Pro had a bunch of USB & FireWire ports for expansion…
Yeah, they could not recognize that Phil made a verbal mistake in the keynote…
Laporte then went on to denigrate the machine due to its compact size, and then suggest that it would be nothing more than a stylish HTPC, but overpriced…
Apple is not going to go thru the effort of R&D-ing this thing just to overprice the entry point and lose more pro customers to linux or windows…
GOOD
Xeon E5 v2 4-core CPU
16GB DDR3 ECC RAM
256GB PCIe Flash SSD
Dual ATI FirePro W5000 GPUs w/2GB GDDR5 RAM
US$2,000.00
Nice listing of machines. However you run up the price to fast. Try $750 increments for the first three and the $2000 for the last increment.
I have to agree with you also Apple is trying to maximize performance at the lowest possible price.
Actually, from looking about on the ol' Interwebz, taking in the pricing that has been bandied about here for the last week or so, and keeping in mind Apple's predilection for fat margins; I think the pricing I outlined (AND the specs as well…!!!) might be pretty spot on…!
The entry-level drops the price from the previous generation, with a configuration that can only be a huge step up from the aforementioned previous generations specs…
This is the model for the hobbyist, for the lower-level pro-sumer, for the gamers & the HTPC crowd; low price, good specs…
The GOOD model IS the undercover XMac…!
The BETTER model is the REAL entry point for the true Pros… The Pros that need to stretch a dollar, the students that want a relevant workstation…
The BEST model is for the Pros that can afford a few extra bucks, but do not want to go 'all crazy' with the ULTIMATE model…
And that ULTIMATE model, well, that is just AWESOME… It WILL sell to the Pros who NEED to crank thru work to get to the next billable project; the freelancer that NEEDS top end hardware and does not mind amortizing it over the next five years…
Apple will, of course, get pricing on the components lower that what is tossed about here, and that is okay since they will be buying in BULK…
Apple will become ATI's BIGGEST workstation-class GPU customer; so they can afford to give Apple some ultra low pricing on GPUs…
Same goes for all of the other 'custom' parts in this tube… The R&D is done, the designs are there, the production should be well under way… The more Apple sells during the projected 10 year lifespan of this design; the more they should be able to drive component pricing down…
So again, I think the pricing is spot on, with assumed component pricing & Apple margins considered…
And I still think these things will sell like the proverbial hotcake…!!!
Actually, from looking about on the ol' Interwebz, taking in the pricing that has been bandied about here for the last week or so, and keeping in mind Apple's predilection for fat margins; I think the pricing I outlined (AND the specs as well…!!!) might be pretty spot on…!
The entry-level drops the price from the previous generation, with a configuration that can only be a huge step up from the aforementioned previous generations specs…
This is the model for the hobbyist, for the lower-level pro-sumer, for the gamers & the HTPC crowd; low price, good specs…
The GOOD model IS the undercover XMac…!
Actually that would in some ways be more of an XMac than many have considered. I would prefer a larger SSD over two GPU cards.
I'm still holding out hope that Apple has an even lower cost model in the wings based around desktop parts and a single GPU. It should be easy to hit the $1500 range with this frame as the base. It need not be marketed as a Mac Pro either. The neat thing about this design is that the thermal core and other parts can be easily shortened for a jr. Model.
The BETTER model is the REAL entry point for the true Pros… The Pros that need to stretch a dollar, the students that want a relevant workstation…
The BEST model is for the Pros that can afford a few extra bucks, but do not want to go 'all crazy' with the ULTIMATE model…
And that ULTIMATE model, well, that is just AWESOME… It WILL sell to the Pros who NEED to crank thru work to get to the next billable project; the freelancer that NEEDS top end hardware and does not mind amortizing it over the next five years…
Apple will, of course, get pricing on the components lower that what is tossed about here, and that is okay since they will be buying in BULK…
I could see Apple moving more FirePro GPUs than AMD has even dreamed of up until now.
Apple will become ATI's BIGGEST workstation-class GPU customer; so they can afford to give Apple some ultra low pricing on GPUs…
Agreed! This is huge for AMD and hopeful will go to helping them re establish themselves in the CPU market.
Same goes for all of the other 'custom' parts in this tube… The R&D is done, the designs are there, the production should be well under way… The more Apple sells during the projected 10 year lifespan of this design; the more they should be able to drive component pricing down…
Actually I'd be surprised if anything more than pilot production is happening now.
So again, I think the pricing is spot on, with assumed component pricing & Apple margins considered…
Well a $2000 entry point would be far more reasonable than today's hardware. One thing I'm really hoping that they do is to wise up and populate that other PCI Express solder pad so that both GPU boards can have SSDs installed on them. With one extra SSD slot I wouldn't need any external storage expect for bulk storage and backup.
And I still think these things will sell like the proverbial hotcake…!!!
Without a doubt. Well given that Apple doesn't get greedy with pricing. In many ways these come close to what I imagine would be an ideal computer for my use.
Apple will become ATI's BIGGEST workstation-class GPU customer; so they can afford to give Apple some ultra low pricing on GPUs…
You guys seem to run with these assertions without any data. The only reason I might be able to see Apple carrying a certain amount of volume is that NVidia typically dominates that segment. Even then I wouldn't read so far into what this might be or its impact on retail pricing.
You guys seem to run with these assertions without any data. The only reason I might be able to see Apple carrying a certain amount of volume is that NVidia typically dominates that segment. Even then I wouldn't read so far into what this might be or its impact on retail pricing.
Well if apple moves 30,000 a quarter that is 60,000 GPUs. Not bad really and frankly I don't know what other manufactures move a quarter but it is likely spread across at least 4 manufactures. That would be 240,000 Workstation GPUs a year from one manufacture.
Comments
http://clbenchmark.com/device-info.jsp?config=14659325
For my 680 MX, if you have the right app, you can crunch some decent numbers.
I wonder if Open CL is going to get some serious industry momentum behind it... It looks like a really tasty tech' if you can get Apple, AMD and software devs optimising it to squeeze all the performance out of hardware.
Lemon Bon Bon.
You'd have to add the 20% tax on top unfortunately. If they stick with $2499, that will be £1999. If they perhaps have a single GPU option, maybe lower margins, they could hit $1999, which would be sold at £1499 including tax but I don't think they'll do that. The original Mac Pro price was $2199 = £1699.
I don't think it's such a big problem though because people will sell used ones with Applecare after a couple of years and they'll hit that price point. Even Apple 15% refurbs will be £1699.
I had too trim a bit but needed to hilight this part because of this pricing issue. In a nut shell I don't think Dell is selling wholesale but rather has cut a deal that allows the to make a profit at a much lower price than the supposed retail prices imply. It is fairly well known that the GPUs in the workstation cards aren't hugely different than run of the mill desktop chips so there is significant price inflation in the workstation cards.
Now take into account the price padding and then the custom boards for this machine and you really have no idea what Apple is paying for each GPU card. The cost to Apple might be a few dollars over the cost of a desktop board or it could match the price of a tricked out desktop card. We really have no way to know.
For AMD and Apple they could bring this to market far cheaper than current PCI Express card solutions and simply say it is a custom product. PC manufactures might not like it but it is pretty obvious this is a custom effort. The other thing here is that there are no "workstation drivers" for Apples computers, since that is part of the justification for the high prices of these cards in the workstation world, another element in the PC world pricing scheme drops out. On top of all of that the potential for volume here is pretty significant, Apple could move more of these chips in a month than AMD does in a quarter. Ten thousand a quarter ought to be easy.
In a nut shell here, while we can speculate it will be very hard to hit the actual price point for this new Mac Pro. There are just too many variables.
As for the new Mac Pro, everything about this machine indicates to me that Apple wants to get as much computational power into users hands as possible at an industry leading cost to those users. We might be very surprised when this machine ships. Consider this, when the machine ships Apple will likely become AMDs single biggest partner when it comes to workstation GPUs. If only Wizard had money to throw away on new computing hardware right now! I could see myself going in the direction of a Mac Pro next year though. However if Apple release a XMac variant of this machine, that is a machine with desktop processors and GPUs at a reasonable price, I'd probably go that route.
I just wonder when the release date is. I'm still thinking after September.
OpenCL does have serious industry momentum behind it. I'm not sure why people think the opposite.
The problem I suspect is that people don't understand OpenCL or GPU computing well. GPU computing isn't a replacement for your CPU. As such the problem space has to be amendable to GPU compute. Even if the problem space is amendable to GPU compute, porting existing apps can be very involved. The adoption of OpenCL is widespread but maybe not marketed real well.
The GPUs are really the biggest variable but the price you've mentioned in the past is below $1500:
http://forums.appleinsider.com/t/157734/wwdc-2013/40#post_2336892
There's not much point in putting in a custom desktop motherboard, desktop RAM and a desktop GPU because it won't scale up enough to outperform the iMac and it will undercut it. The MP wouldn't need to use different parts though to come in cheaper.
The Mac Pro site says "dual GPUs standard" so they're going with two no matter what happens. They can offer lower dual-FirePros like the V3900/V4900 (not sure if they support Crossfire) like Dell/HP and that would help get to a lower price but the performance is fairly low (right at the bottom of the charts):
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/workstation-graphics-card-gaming,3425-8.html
Is it worth building a custom GPU to get that performance? The desktop 7970s are around the same price as the W5000 so not much cost benefit there. It would be great if they did make a cheaper model but you can say that about every machine they make. Going by what they've done in the past, it's not likely that we'll see another Mac Pro below $1999.
I think $1999 would be a decent starting price given that you have to buy a display but I wouldn't buy a Mac Pro at that price with a V3900 when the iMac with a 680MX is so much faster than it. The only way a Mac Pro will be faster than the iMac and justify the higher price is with dual W5000.
The Pixar guy said 'the fall', so did Tim, so did Square Enix: http://uk.ign.com/articles/2013/06/12/deus-ex-the-fall-is-totally-legit
Intel says Q3 (July-September) for E5-2600v2 and they have an event on September 10th (Moscone Center too). I highly doubt it will be before September 10th - I think they'll also be showing off Thunderbolt 2.
Wow, you guys sure do your homework. The more I read the more I'm impressed with the new Mac Pro. I just wish I could justify the cost. My current hobby workstation is an eBay bought HP Z800 with 2 Xeon X5660, HP 32GB ECC (this took a while to acquire, I wanted all HP memory without paying HP prices), 2 Tesla M1060's, HP Nvidia Quadro 4000 (I traded my old Thinkpad X201 for it, boooh I miss it though ). Almost all of the parts were bought separately but total cost was just a little over 2200. The Xeons came out of a non-functioning IBM server that I picked up from a hedge fund (Man Investment) computer auction, paid 300CHF for it, stripped out the CPU's and HD's. The two Tesla cards are my pride and joy though, I paid less then 250 for the two of them (I started out with just one but the price and benefit was just to tempting to stay at just one), God I love eBay. The OS I use is CentOS which is perfect for the Tesla. The amount of power those cards bring is just staggering, converting DVD Mpeg2 rips to MP4 takes minutes, Blender rendering is the best though, what takes a CPU 30 minutes takes the Tesla cards seconds. This HP Frankenstein's monster isn't finished though, I only have one 600GB SAS 15,000RPM drive, I would like to have 3 more to do a raid 5 setup but their expensive (200 a piece) so I'm watching eBay for a good deal on 3 (if anyone sees any please let me know, I would prefer HP drives but I would take Hitachi or IBM). Now my machine is incredibly, ludicrously, insanely fast, so I can only imagine what the new Mac Pro will bring to the table. It took a while to collect all of the parts and configure correctly, so was it worth it, absolutely, the savings were just to overwhelming, it would have cost 3 or more grand more to buy new. So knowing this I just can't justify a new Mac Pro, even though I would really, really like to have one.
On a side note, AMD FirePro's are pretty awesome cards but the Quadro's can use Open CL and CUDA, where as the FirePro's can only use Open CL. I think I would prefer a card that I didn't have to choose.
OpenCL is portable, CUDA is nVidia only. However, being an independent language, CUDA is much more powerful and has a bunch of really good tools.
Ease of use -- OpenCL is easier to use out of the box, but once you setup the CUDA coding environment it's almost like coding in C.
Community and Documentation -- both have extensive documentation and examples, however I think CUDA has better.
Performance -- CUDA allows for greater control, hence can be better fine-tuned for higher performance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Relic
On a side note, AMD FirePro's are pretty awesome cards but the Quadro's can use Open CL and CUDA, where as the FirePro's can only use Open CL. I think I would prefer a card that I didn't have to choose.
OpenCL is portable, CUDA is nVidia only. However, being an independent language, CUDA is much more powerful and has a bunch of really good tools.
Ease of use -- OpenCL is easier to use out of the box, but once you setup the CUDA coding environment it's almost like coding in C.
Community and Documentation -- both have extensive documentation and examples, however I think CUDA has better.
Performance -- CUDA allows for greater control, hence can be better fine-tuned for higher performance.
You also have dozens of not hundreds of hours of shopping, going to auctions, assembly and test. If you value your time, this means you have an additional cost of $2400 to $6000 in just time to save $3000. That is why I no longer do the Build Your Own stuff. I used to find it tons of fun but anymore, I just need the machine to do my work and have fun (but I no longer consider putting together computers "fun" like I used to).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven N.
You also have dozens of not hundreds of hours of shopping, going to auctions, assembly and test. If you value your time, this means you have an additional cost of $2400 to $6000 in just time to save $3000. That is why I no longer do the Build Your Own stuff. I used to find it tons of fun but anymore, I just need the machine to do my work and have fun (but I no longer consider putting together computers "fun" like I used to).
Your right but as I stated before this is a hobby machine, if I purchased a new Mac Pro it would also be a hobby machine. It took a long time to find and assemble my beast and I enjoyed every moment of it. I can fully understand that it's not for everyone, most people just don't possess the skills or time to do what I did so a Mac Pro is defiantly perfect for them.
Leo Laporte has been guessing that it will cost around $3,000—$4,000.
I just realized (though someone might have before)...
The design of the MacPro is a great departure from the rest of the line, which also means a big departure from Apple IO devices: the trackpad, mouse and the keyboards.
Will we see a redesign of at least a keyboard that will match the MP? (I think a new display is highly likely as well)
And, could the new design elements shown in the MP lead to major changes in the iMac and or Mac mini?
Anyone artistically inclined ready to try a mockup?
Sorry if this has been touched on already.
I would use a standalone version of the Macbook keyboard. Black keys, backlit...
The current keyboards are cut-outs from the iMac chassis. I think the interior black metal on the Mac Pro could work ok for a black laptop but I get the feeling the reflective surface is a big part of the Mac Pro aesthetic, which doesn't translate well to the other form factors. The glossy top is a lid and none of the other form factors have an equivalent of a removable lid. The laptops could have shiny outer shells with matte inner shells I suppose but it might end up looking like glossy black plastic PCs.
I was a little disappointed to see that it wasn't silver as I think the light shade of metal they use is really unique to their brand but it still looks nice in black just like the iPhone looks nice in black metal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich
Leo Laporte has been guessing that it will cost around $3,000—$4,000.
I am going to go ahead and assume you are taking this from that 'netcast' video he had up the week of the new Mac Pro being announced…
This would be the same netcast where neither he, nor any of the three other people in the room, nor the guy that was also 'there' via video chat ; could be bothered to correct themselves when one of them stated that the new Mac Pro had a bunch of USB & FireWire ports for expansion…
Yeah, they could not recognize that Phil made a verbal mistake in the keynote…
Laporte then went on to denigrate the machine due to its compact size, and then suggest that it would be nothing more than a stylish HTPC, but overpriced…
Apple is not going to go thru the effort of R&D-ing this thing just to overprice the entry point and lose more pro customers to linux or windows…
GOOD
Xeon E5 v2 4-core CPU
16GB DDR3 ECC RAM
256GB PCIe Flash SSD
Dual ATI FirePro W5000 GPUs w/2GB GDDR5 RAM
US$2,000.00
BETTER
Xeon E5 v2 6-core CPU
32GB DDR3 RAM
512GB PCIe Flash SSD
Dual ATI FirePro W7000 GPUs w/4GB GDDR5 RAM
US$3,500.00
BEST
Xeon E5 v2 8-core CPU
64GB DDR3 ECC RAM
768GB PCIe Flash SDD
Dual ATI FirePro W8000 GPUs w/4GB GDDR5 RAM
US$5,000.00
ULTIMATE
Xeon E5 v2 12-core CPU
128GB DDR3 ECC RAM
1TB PCIe Flash SSD
Dual ATI FirePro W9000 GPUs w/6GB GDDR5 RAM
US$7,500.00
Having fun and getting a bit of enjoyment out of recycling isn't bad at all. I've done the same myself , but like you have aged to the point where I'd rather put my energies into something else.
In any event a DIY discussion, especially one done around salvaged hardware, doesn't really apply in this case. If you are really good at it salvage can be had for penny's on the dollar. That has nothing to do with buying new hardware though.
I have to agree with you also Apple is trying to maximize performance at the lowest possible price.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69
Nice listing of machines. However you run up the price to fast. Try $750 increments for the first three and the $2000 for the last increment.
I have to agree with you also Apple is trying to maximize performance at the lowest possible price.
Actually, from looking about on the ol' Interwebz, taking in the pricing that has been bandied about here for the last week or so, and keeping in mind Apple's predilection for fat margins; I think the pricing I outlined (AND the specs as well…!!!) might be pretty spot on…!
The entry-level drops the price from the previous generation, with a configuration that can only be a huge step up from the aforementioned previous generations specs…
This is the model for the hobbyist, for the lower-level pro-sumer, for the gamers & the HTPC crowd; low price, good specs…
The GOOD model IS the undercover XMac…!
The BETTER model is the REAL entry point for the true Pros… The Pros that need to stretch a dollar, the students that want a relevant workstation…
The BEST model is for the Pros that can afford a few extra bucks, but do not want to go 'all crazy' with the ULTIMATE model…
And that ULTIMATE model, well, that is just AWESOME… It WILL sell to the Pros who NEED to crank thru work to get to the next billable project; the freelancer that NEEDS top end hardware and does not mind amortizing it over the next five years…
Apple will, of course, get pricing on the components lower that what is tossed about here, and that is okay since they will be buying in BULK…
Apple will become ATI's BIGGEST workstation-class GPU customer; so they can afford to give Apple some ultra low pricing on GPUs…
Same goes for all of the other 'custom' parts in this tube… The R&D is done, the designs are there, the production should be well under way… The more Apple sells during the projected 10 year lifespan of this design; the more they should be able to drive component pricing down…
So again, I think the pricing is spot on, with assumed component pricing & Apple margins considered…
And I still think these things will sell like the proverbial hotcake…!!!
I'm still holding out hope that Apple has an even lower cost model in the wings based around desktop parts and a single GPU. It should be easy to hit the $1500 range with this frame as the base. It need not be marketed as a Mac Pro either. The neat thing about this design is that the thermal core and other parts can be easily shortened for a jr. Model. I could see Apple moving more FirePro GPUs than AMD has even dreamed of up until now. Agreed! This is huge for AMD and hopeful will go to helping them re establish themselves in the CPU market. Actually I'd be surprised if anything more than pilot production is happening now. Well a $2000 entry point would be far more reasonable than today's hardware. One thing I'm really hoping that they do is to wise up and populate that other PCI Express solder pad so that both GPU boards can have SSDs installed on them. With one extra SSD slot I wouldn't need any external storage expect for bulk storage and backup.
Without a doubt. Well given that Apple doesn't get greedy with pricing. In many ways these come close to what I imagine would be an ideal computer for my use.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRonin
Apple will become ATI's BIGGEST workstation-class GPU customer; so they can afford to give Apple some ultra low pricing on GPUs…
You guys seem to run with these assertions without any data. The only reason I might be able to see Apple carrying a certain amount of volume is that NVidia typically dominates that segment. Even then I wouldn't read so far into what this might be or its impact on retail pricing.
Well if apple moves 30,000 a quarter that is 60,000 GPUs. Not bad really and frankly I don't know what other manufactures move a quarter but it is likely spread across at least 4 manufactures. That would be 240,000 Workstation GPUs a year from one manufacture.