Shame about the access to get on the Mac Pro ladder.
I'm even more happy with my iMac now.
£2500 to get on the Mac Pro ladder is...gulp. You get...a 'quad core.' Well, at least the dual GPU and SSD+ is break through. It's a decent product. Thought they'd be more aggressive on price.
They could put the BTO i7 and Nv GPU in a 'Pro' case and sell it sub' £2k. Easy.
We'll see how many of the Mac Pros they sell.
For 'mid tower' performance (Apple style) the iMac is till very nice.
But it's not as if anything Apple sells is 'cheap' and I mean as in reasonable. Most of their kit is over priced.
Think the entry iPad Air is the best value they do.
They could easy give the pro chassis a space grey 'mini' consumer colour and put in iris, mid range gpu and a high end gpu and give 'tower' customers some value. i.e. an iMac without a monitor prices.
It would offer a premium over the mini...but give those non iMac fans what they want.
I don't think Apple would even need a fan for a headless IMac, if they did, it might not have to be as big, same with the power supply. I know they have a fan inside, but it's a LOT smaller than the MacPro fan. Plus, it's dead quiet. I have a 27inch faster i5 and i can't even hear the fan, so I don't even know if the thing actually even turns on. If it does, I can't hear it.
I think Apple can stick the iMac guts into a smaller box that's a little bigger than the MacMini and be able to charge less than if they used the MacPro case. The MacMini has a tiny little fan. I'm sure a headless iMac might be a case that's about 2x the size of a Mac mini with a smaller power supply/fan than a MacPro.
That's probably what they would come out with, if they did a headless iMac.
Maybe Apple's going to release it next year, since they didn't refresh the MacMini this year.
Sorry Lemon bit the Mac Mini is as good as you are going to get when it comes to a consumer headless Mac. The G4 Cube was the last one and Apple learned its lesson with that failure. What's wrong with the Mac Mini anyway, its just as fast as the iMac CPU and IO wise, yea the iMac has a better graphics processor but with the new Intel GPU in Haswel it should be a lot better. Who uses their Macs to play games anyway, their not the best gaming machines. You can build a much cheaper Wintel machine with better graphics then what's available in the iMac if that's your thing. Dell has a really cute and Small XPS machine that wipes the floor with the iMac and Mac Mini in the the graphics and price department for gaming. Just buy one of those for playing and use you Mac for work.
Sorry Lemon bit the Mac Mini is as good as you are going to get when it comes to a consumer headless Mac. The G4 Cube was the last one and Apple learned its lesson with that failure. What's wrong with the Mac Mini anyway, its just as fast as the iMac CPU and IO wise, yea the iMac has a better graphics processor but with the new Intel GPU in Haswel it should be a lot better. Who uses their Macs to play games anyway, their not the best gaming machines. You can build a much cheaper Wintel machine with better graphics then what's available in the iMac if that's your thing. Dell has a really cute and Small XPS machine that wipes the floor with the iMac and Mac Mini in the the graphics and price department for gaming. Just buy one of those for playing and use you Mac for work.
For some reason, I don't think so. I think there is a very good likelihood that they'll release a headless iMac. The Cube was underpowered and it wasn't that great of a design. Things have changed a LOT since then. They got away from polycarb desktops/laptops.
The iMac compared to other AIOs kicks them senseless. I just checked Dell and Lenovo and it's not even a contest for the AIO.
The Mac Mini is great for an all purpose budget computer, but to do other things that don't require Xeon, and the i7 with lots of memory, storage and I/O, I think a MacMiniPro would fit just nicely. I would gladly buy one and ditch the iMac. The biggest problem with the iMac is if you want to cart it around, It's just not the way to go.
The other problem is using it with two monitors. The Thunderbolt and the iMac monitors don't line up. One sits higher than the other. I would rather get a stout headless unit and connect two identical monitors for two monitor use.
A lot of people want something more in the $2000 to $2500 range for a high end i7 based system because if they want to use a cheaper monitor, it saves money ultimately, OR it's just nicer to replace the base unit rather than the whole thing.
I actually thought the case design that was Apple's best, believe it not, was the MacII CX. I don't know if people remember that one, but it was a small form factor with a few slots, etc.
Obviously, an updated version would be TOTALLY cool, just make it out of aluminum, they could probably take out a little in the height, and then stuff some fast SSD, Thunderbolt 2, etc. etc. it would be a great ProTools box, etc. with a couple of internal PCI slots. I doubt they would do that, but it would be cool if they did. They could easily stuff a high end i5 or i7, 32GB of RAM, Fusion drive, SSD drive, plenty o ports. Otherwise, just make it a spotless design that's twice the height of the current MacMini.
I think there is a very good likelihood that they'll release a headless iMac.
All they need to do is put the quad that's in the entry 15" MBP in a Mini - the i7-4750HQ. Even if it makes it $899 instead of $799, it's worth the price to get Iris Pro graphics. They can also remove the second HDD bay and offer PCIe storage combined with a single HDD up to 2TB. Some people will just take PCIe storage on its own. The RAM could be soldered on but that might limit them to 8GB due to the physical size so RAM slots would be better in that case to allow up to 16GB cost-effectively. When DDR4 arrives, they can solder it on.
The fan and PSU are almost the full height of the Mini so there's not much room to change the form factor and I don't think they should feel they have to change it. It's a great size, weight and design. If they could make it quieter with asymmetric fan blades and perhaps cool air intakes at the base, that would be an improvement.
All they need to do is put the quad that's in the entry 15" MBP in a Mini - the i7-4750HQ. Even if it makes it $899 instead of $799, it's worth the price to get Iris Pro graphics. They can also remove the second HDD bay and offer PCIe storage combined with a single HDD up to 2TB. Some people will just take PCIe storage on its own. The RAM could be soldered on but that might limit them to 8GB due to the physical size so RAM slots would be better in that case to allow up to 16GB cost-effectively. When DDR4 arrives, they can solder it on.
It isn't entirely unprecedented. The original mini was $499 IIRC. It has seen price increases and increases in capability relative to the rest of the concurrent line. I haven't read enough about DDR4, but it wouldn't surprise me to see SODIMMs go this way for the most part.
All they need to do is put the quad that's in the entry 15" MBP in a Mini - the i7-4750HQ. Even if it makes it $899 instead of $799, it's worth the price to get Iris Pro graphics.
Not likely. Who's going to buy a $1299 2.7/3.2 Ghz Core i5 iMac if they can get a 2.0/3.2 Ghz Core i7 Mini for $899? Before there was the GPU up sell to get the iMac.
Even for $999 that's iffy. All you would be doing is pushing ASPs and Mac profits down.
I suspect that none of the Minis get Iris Pro unless it's deliberately gimped to Core i5.
All they need to do is put the quad that's in the entry 15" MBP in a Mini - the i7-4750HQ. Even if it makes it $899 instead of $799, it's worth the price to get Iris Pro graphics. They can also remove the second HDD bay and offer PCIe storage combined with a single HDD up to 2TB. Some people will just take PCIe storage on its own. The RAM could be soldered on but that might limit them to 8GB due to the physical size so RAM slots would be better in that case to allow up to 16GB cost-effectively. When DDR4 arrives, they can solder it on.
The fan and PSU are almost the full height of the Mini so there's not much room to change the form factor and I don't think they should feel they have to change it. It's a great size, weight and design. If they could make it quieter with asymmetric fan blades and perhaps cool air intakes at the base, that would be an improvement.
Sounds like a plan, although I'm not sure why desktops really need soldered RAM.
But Apple would like it.
I would think, knowing Apple, that they'd go the route of eliminating the second HD, pulling the power supply out and redesigning it to make it smaller and quieter.
Not likely. Who's going to buy a $1299 2.7/3.2 Ghz Core i5 iMac if they can get a 2.0/3.2 Ghz Core i7 Mini for $899? Before there was the GPU up sell to get the iMac.
This isn't a problem and never has been a problem. People interested in an iMac have zero interest in a headless desktop and vs versa.
Even for $999 that's iffy. All you would be doing is pushing ASPs and Mac profits down.
Given the right desktop solution I'd be willing to pay around $1200. It would have to be a decent configuration and support better than iMac performance.
I suspect that none of the Minis get Iris Pro unless it's deliberately gimped to Core i5.
This is the big problem, Apple in the past has deliberately gimped the Mini. However one issue they do have is thermal capacity. That is where a redesigned machine comes in.
I suspect that none of the Minis get Iris Pro unless it's deliberately gimped to Core i5.
You mean dual core? That's how it works with the mobile skus. The hyperthreading enabled/disable thing only applies to the desktop variants. I'm not entirely sure on this one. The mini initially borrowed its hardware configurations from the 13" mbp, but over time it took on more things from the 15" mbp. The 2011 model was gimped on video memory, but its gpu was clocked higher than the lowest 15" from that year which used a 6490m, which was the low end of AMD's lineup at the time. I do think they'll gimp it in some way, but the low end 21" is a poor value. Losing sales to the mini would be partly because it's not a very compelling machine.
A lot of people want something more in the $2000 to $2500 range for a high end i7 based system because if they want to use a cheaper monitor, it saves money ultimately, OR it's just nicer to replace the base unit rather than the whole thing.
I point this out whenever the topic comes up, and no one seems to have a response. The Xeon used in the base model at $3000 costs the same amount as the one they used in the cheese grater at $2500. It has been that way since 2009, and it costs less than any of the other mac pro cpus that preceded it. It costs marginally less than a high end i7. It also costs less than several of the mobile cpus used in the 15" rmbp. I suspect the price barrier you envision is really illusory, and it's more of a pricing strategy. It's not here or there, but there isn't an evidence that Apple couldn't do this due to component costs. It's unlikely that the firepro cards are that expensive in their base configuration, as they chopped down the memory for the D300s. It is 2 gpus, but I'm not sure one of them costs as much as they paid for a 5770 in 2010. If this was a case of 2x W7000s, they would probably poach quite a few windows buyers.
Anyway where do you think they would cut out costs by going to i7? Keep in mind the boards used in single Xeon setups aren't anywhere near as much as the duals. They are similar to those used in the enthusiast class Sandy Bridge E and Ivy Bridge E setups.
This isn't a problem and never has been a problem. People interested in an iMac have zero interest in a headless desktop and vs versa.
It hasn't been a problem because Apple very carefully positions all it's products for the up-sell.
And I disagree that there is no overlap between iMac and Mac Mini users.
Quote:
Given the right desktop solution I'd be willing to pay around $1200. It would have to be a decent configuration and support better than iMac performance.
You'll continue to be disappointed. What you are stating here is you want a top end iMac for half the price. That isn't going to happen.
No, quad core Core i5 with Iris Pro for $799 and a "server" version quad core i7 with just HD5000 for $999.
For $500 extra you get keyboard, mouse and 21" monitor. Even then the base iMac still a bad deal in comparison to the middle Mini.
So maybe just Core i5 with Iris and not Iris Pro.
I must look at the haswell lineup. Ivy had 0 quad i5 models in their mobile processor line. These were limited to desktop variants, where quad i5 was differentiated through disabled hyperthreading.
Sounds like a plan, although I'm not sure why desktops really need soldered RAM.
But Apple would like it.
Actually soldered RAM is in our future even if it isn't an Apple initiative. Most of the fastest new technologies coming have to be soldered in to meet electrical performance demands. I could see a time when you upgraded (SODIMMs) RAM is considered "slow RAM" to the machine.
I would think, knowing Apple, that they'd go the route of eliminating the second HD, pulling the power supply out and redesigning it to make it smaller and quieter.
The whole problem with Apples lineup is that the Mini has been too small to deliver the midrange performance many of us want in a desktop machine. Here we are talking quad core CPUs at the very least. Iris plus graphics or support for discrete GPUs. The last time they tried a discrete GPU in a Mini it was a joke, not worth the money Apple was asking.
Y'know, because it's what Apple does. :)
The interesting thing here is that Haswell can allow Apple to dramatically transform the Mini into a better platform. If, a big if, they are wiling to give up on some of the old concepts, they can do a acceptable refactoring. One thing they would need to do is to pull the hard drives and switch to an SSD blade. This would provide more volume for heat sinks and the fan assembly. Further more of the power budget could be allocated to the Intel Processor and maybe another set of TB ports.
So the Mini would have its primary storage set up on an SSD and for people needing bulk storage an external drive module could be used. Let's face it the space occupied by the current hard drive bays is significant. Convert that space to supporting a much more powerful Mini and you have a winner.
Comments
Shame about the access to get on the Mac Pro ladder.
I'm even more happy with my iMac now.
£2500 to get on the Mac Pro ladder is...gulp. You get...a 'quad core.' Well, at least the dual GPU and SSD+ is break through. It's a decent product. Thought they'd be more aggressive on price.
They could put the BTO i7 and Nv GPU in a 'Pro' case and sell it sub' £2k. Easy.
We'll see how many of the Mac Pros they sell.
For 'mid tower' performance (Apple style) the iMac is till very nice.
But it's not as if anything Apple sells is 'cheap' and I mean as in reasonable. Most of their kit is over priced.
Think the entry iPad Air is the best value they do.
Lemon Bon Bon.
They could easy give the pro chassis a space grey 'mini' consumer colour and put in iris, mid range gpu and a high end gpu and give 'tower' customers some value. i.e. an iMac without a monitor prices.
It would offer a premium over the mini...but give those non iMac fans what they want.
Lemon Bon Bon.
Good suggestion you have I agree 100% with you.I doubt though if Apple will do this at all.
Good suggestion you have I agree 100% with you.I doubt though if Apple will do this at all.
I like the iMac. Some don't. People want what they want. vs What Apple will give them. There's no need to limit their desktop market this way.
Just put in desktop cpus and gpus in the Mac Pro chassis with a different 'consumer' colour.
Or even a '5C' style plastic enclosure to funky up their desktop line.
Either way, they could offer something a bit more flexible than either the current Mini or iMac for 'those' people who want neither.
Instead of playing the constant artificial creaming and reaming up sell game.
I remember when the iMac used to be about value...the G3 Tower too.
Now it's about screwing people.
Lemon Bon Bon.
Different consumer "color"? What does that mean?
I don't think Apple would even need a fan for a headless IMac, if they did, it might not have to be as big, same with the power supply. I know they have a fan inside, but it's a LOT smaller than the MacPro fan. Plus, it's dead quiet. I have a 27inch faster i5 and i can't even hear the fan, so I don't even know if the thing actually even turns on. If it does, I can't hear it.
I think Apple can stick the iMac guts into a smaller box that's a little bigger than the MacMini and be able to charge less than if they used the MacPro case. The MacMini has a tiny little fan. I'm sure a headless iMac might be a case that's about 2x the size of a Mac mini with a smaller power supply/fan than a MacPro.
That's probably what they would come out with, if they did a headless iMac.
Maybe Apple's going to release it next year, since they didn't refresh the MacMini this year.
Sorry Lemon bit the Mac Mini is as good as you are going to get when it comes to a consumer headless Mac. The G4 Cube was the last one and Apple learned its lesson with that failure. What's wrong with the Mac Mini anyway, its just as fast as the iMac CPU and IO wise, yea the iMac has a better graphics processor but with the new Intel GPU in Haswel it should be a lot better. Who uses their Macs to play games anyway, their not the best gaming machines. You can build a much cheaper Wintel machine with better graphics then what's available in the iMac if that's your thing. Dell has a really cute and Small XPS machine that wipes the floor with the iMac and Mac Mini in the the graphics and price department for gaming. Just buy one of those for playing and use you Mac for work.
For some reason, I don't think so. I think there is a very good likelihood that they'll release a headless iMac. The Cube was underpowered and it wasn't that great of a design. Things have changed a LOT since then. They got away from polycarb desktops/laptops.
The iMac compared to other AIOs kicks them senseless. I just checked Dell and Lenovo and it's not even a contest for the AIO.
The Mac Mini is great for an all purpose budget computer, but to do other things that don't require Xeon, and the i7 with lots of memory, storage and I/O, I think a MacMiniPro would fit just nicely. I would gladly buy one and ditch the iMac. The biggest problem with the iMac is if you want to cart it around, It's just not the way to go.
The other problem is using it with two monitors. The Thunderbolt and the iMac monitors don't line up. One sits higher than the other. I would rather get a stout headless unit and connect two identical monitors for two monitor use.
A lot of people want something more in the $2000 to $2500 range for a high end i7 based system because if they want to use a cheaper monitor, it saves money ultimately, OR it's just nicer to replace the base unit rather than the whole thing.
I actually thought the case design that was Apple's best, believe it not, was the MacII CX. I don't know if people remember that one, but it was a small form factor with a few slots, etc.
Obviously, an updated version would be TOTALLY cool, just make it out of aluminum, they could probably take out a little in the height, and then stuff some fast SSD, Thunderbolt 2, etc. etc. it would be a great ProTools box, etc. with a couple of internal PCI slots. I doubt they would do that, but it would be cool if they did. They could easily stuff a high end i5 or i7, 32GB of RAM, Fusion drive, SSD drive, plenty o ports. Otherwise, just make it a spotless design that's twice the height of the current MacMini.
All they need to do is put the quad that's in the entry 15" MBP in a Mini - the i7-4750HQ. Even if it makes it $899 instead of $799, it's worth the price to get Iris Pro graphics. They can also remove the second HDD bay and offer PCIe storage combined with a single HDD up to 2TB. Some people will just take PCIe storage on its own. The RAM could be soldered on but that might limit them to 8GB due to the physical size so RAM slots would be better in that case to allow up to 16GB cost-effectively. When DDR4 arrives, they can solder it on.
The fan and PSU are almost the full height of the Mini so there's not much room to change the form factor and I don't think they should feel they have to change it. It's a great size, weight and design. If they could make it quieter with asymmetric fan blades and perhaps cool air intakes at the base, that would be an improvement.
All they need to do is put the quad that's in the entry 15" MBP in a Mini - the i7-4750HQ. Even if it makes it $899 instead of $799, it's worth the price to get Iris Pro graphics. They can also remove the second HDD bay and offer PCIe storage combined with a single HDD up to 2TB. Some people will just take PCIe storage on its own. The RAM could be soldered on but that might limit them to 8GB due to the physical size so RAM slots would be better in that case to allow up to 16GB cost-effectively. When DDR4 arrives, they can solder it on.
It isn't entirely unprecedented. The original mini was $499 IIRC. It has seen price increases and increases in capability relative to the rest of the concurrent line. I haven't read enough about DDR4, but it wouldn't surprise me to see SODIMMs go this way for the most part.
All they need to do is put the quad that's in the entry 15" MBP in a Mini - the i7-4750HQ. Even if it makes it $899 instead of $799, it's worth the price to get Iris Pro graphics.
Not likely. Who's going to buy a $1299 2.7/3.2 Ghz Core i5 iMac if they can get a 2.0/3.2 Ghz Core i7 Mini for $899? Before there was the GPU up sell to get the iMac.
Even for $999 that's iffy. All you would be doing is pushing ASPs and Mac profits down.
I suspect that none of the Minis get Iris Pro unless it's deliberately gimped to Core i5.
All they need to do is put the quad that's in the entry 15" MBP in a Mini - the i7-4750HQ. Even if it makes it $899 instead of $799, it's worth the price to get Iris Pro graphics. They can also remove the second HDD bay and offer PCIe storage combined with a single HDD up to 2TB. Some people will just take PCIe storage on its own. The RAM could be soldered on but that might limit them to 8GB due to the physical size so RAM slots would be better in that case to allow up to 16GB cost-effectively. When DDR4 arrives, they can solder it on.
The fan and PSU are almost the full height of the Mini so there's not much room to change the form factor and I don't think they should feel they have to change it. It's a great size, weight and design. If they could make it quieter with asymmetric fan blades and perhaps cool air intakes at the base, that would be an improvement.
Sounds like a plan, although I'm not sure why desktops really need soldered RAM.
But Apple would like it.
I would think, knowing Apple, that they'd go the route of eliminating the second HD, pulling the power supply out and redesigning it to make it smaller and quieter.
Y'know, because it's what Apple does.
This is the big problem, Apple in the past has deliberately gimped the Mini. However one issue they do have is thermal capacity. That is where a redesigned machine comes in.
I suspect that none of the Minis get Iris Pro unless it's deliberately gimped to Core i5.
You mean dual core? That's how it works with the mobile skus. The hyperthreading enabled/disable thing only applies to the desktop variants. I'm not entirely sure on this one. The mini initially borrowed its hardware configurations from the 13" mbp, but over time it took on more things from the 15" mbp. The 2011 model was gimped on video memory, but its gpu was clocked higher than the lowest 15" from that year which used a 6490m, which was the low end of AMD's lineup at the time. I do think they'll gimp it in some way, but the low end 21" is a poor value. Losing sales to the mini would be partly because it's not a very compelling machine.
A lot of people want something more in the $2000 to $2500 range for a high end i7 based system because if they want to use a cheaper monitor, it saves money ultimately, OR it's just nicer to replace the base unit rather than the whole thing.
I point this out whenever the topic comes up, and no one seems to have a response. The Xeon used in the base model at $3000 costs the same amount as the one they used in the cheese grater at $2500. It has been that way since 2009, and it costs less than any of the other mac pro cpus that preceded it. It costs marginally less than a high end i7. It also costs less than several of the mobile cpus used in the 15" rmbp. I suspect the price barrier you envision is really illusory, and it's more of a pricing strategy. It's not here or there, but there isn't an evidence that Apple couldn't do this due to component costs. It's unlikely that the firepro cards are that expensive in their base configuration, as they chopped down the memory for the D300s. It is 2 gpus, but I'm not sure one of them costs as much as they paid for a 5770 in 2010. If this was a case of 2x W7000s, they would probably poach quite a few windows buyers.
Anyway where do you think they would cut out costs by going to i7? Keep in mind the boards used in single Xeon setups aren't anywhere near as much as the duals. They are similar to those used in the enthusiast class Sandy Bridge E and Ivy Bridge E setups.
You mean dual core? That's how it works with the mobile skus.
No, quad core Core i5 with Iris Pro for $799 and a "server" version quad core i7 with just HD5000 for $999.
For $500 extra you get keyboard, mouse and 21" monitor. Even then the base iMac still a bad deal in comparison to the middle Mini.
So maybe just Core i5 with Iris and not Iris Pro.
This isn't a problem and never has been a problem. People interested in an iMac have zero interest in a headless desktop and vs versa.
It hasn't been a problem because Apple very carefully positions all it's products for the up-sell.
And I disagree that there is no overlap between iMac and Mac Mini users.
You'll continue to be disappointed. What you are stating here is you want a top end iMac for half the price. That isn't going to happen.
No, quad core Core i5 with Iris Pro for $799 and a "server" version quad core i7 with just HD5000 for $999.
For $500 extra you get keyboard, mouse and 21" monitor. Even then the base iMac still a bad deal in comparison to the middle Mini.
So maybe just Core i5 with Iris and not Iris Pro.
I must look at the haswell lineup. Ivy had 0 quad i5 models in their mobile processor line. These were limited to desktop variants, where quad i5 was differentiated through disabled hyperthreading.
The interesting thing here is that Haswell can allow Apple to dramatically transform the Mini into a better platform. If, a big if, they are wiling to give up on some of the old concepts, they can do a acceptable refactoring. One thing they would need to do is to pull the hard drives and switch to an SSD blade. This would provide more volume for heat sinks and the fan assembly. Further more of the power budget could be allocated to the Intel Processor and maybe another set of TB ports.
So the Mini would have its primary storage set up on an SSD and for people needing bulk storage an external drive module could be used. Let's face it the space occupied by the current hard drive bays is significant. Convert that space to supporting a much more powerful Mini and you have a winner.