Yeah! I can't wait to see a MacBook Pro with no AMD or nVidia dGPU... but with Intel's GPU and their magnificent drivers. I'm sure all Pro users will be happy to see such a thing happen! Why use a dGPU while doing 3D stuff or OpenCL stuff when you can use Intel integrated super powered graphics!
I think they will do one model with an integrated and one with discrete. It would be a disaster to do purely integrated especially for $2k+ "Pro" notebook. We'll see though.
That they are waiting for Mavericks to be finalized is absolutely infuriating.
Citation needed, but will never be provided, because it isn't true in the slightest, as years of evidence to the contrary prove.
Release the refresh already, Cook. Stop trying to artificially increase the value and market share of your OS update by tying it to new systems. It's such a garbage tactic.
As far as I know, no one has said that they are waiting for Mavericks. The impressin is that they are waiting on hardware to finalize. What that hardware is, is an open question. Some think it is a new screen technology while others think it might be a wait for TB2 while others again think that it is a wait for intels new CPU to actually ship.
You and me both. That they are waiting for Mavericks to be finalized is absolutely infuriating. I'm using Mavericks already, it's nothing worth waiting for. Release the refresh already, Cook. Stop trying to artificially increase the value and market share of your OS update by tying it to new systems. It's such a garbage tactic.
deansolecki - They will definitely drop the discrete GPU. The Iris 5200 can almost match the 650M and can beat it in OpenCL tests. It also has the advantage of ECC memory unlike the 650M and far lower battery drain. The discrete chip is definitely going away.
I'm not too sure about that! A discrete GPU would significantly enhance the OpenCL potential of the machine. Even if it is never used to drive the screen a discrete GPU is a very high value item in a Pro Machine.
He needs proof? Really? You're right- I'm sure that Mountain lion and the 2012 MacBook Air just coincidently got finalized on the same day....
Something gets held up, Whether it be the hardware or software. Personally, I like the co-launch. But to pretend that they don't delay a release for either hardware or software to co-launch with it is foolish.
My 2012 retina Ivy Bridge 2.7 GHz i7 quad-core MBP scores about 13,500 under OS X 10.6.8 and about 15,500 under Windows 7 Ultimate in Bootcamp, so no upgrady for me!
Why would you upgrade a one year old machine anyways?
By the way this benchmark is for the most part useless unless the app has been recompiled for Haswell and its new technology. There are benefits for apps tht can make use of the new AVX instructions for example.
He needs proof? Really? You're right- I'm sure that Mountain lion and the 2012 MacBook Air just coincidently got finalized on the same day....
Of course he needs proof, there is nothing to indicate that Mavericks is the hold up here and a lot to indicate that hardware is the issue. For one thing Intel isn't even expected to ship the required chip until September.
Something gets held up, Whether it be the hardware or software. Personally, I like the co-launch. But to pretend that they don't delay a release for either hardware or software to co-launch with it is foolish.
All you really need to do is grab a developers account to see the state of Mavericks for yourself. It has a ways to go as it is now. In other words Mavericks is no more ready than the CPU chips. Beyond that other bits of hardware are rumored to be ramping up. What is foolish is buying into the idea that anything here is even delayed. The launch schedule for Haswell has been know for six month almost, if the end of September comes and the new Mac Book Pros aren't shipping then you can say there is a delay.
deansolecki - They will definitely drop the discrete GPU. The Iris 5200 can almost match the 650M and can beat it in OpenCL tests. It also has the advantage of ECC memory unlike the 650M and far lower battery drain. The discrete chip is definitely going away.
It is unlikely that Apple will drop the discrete GPU. It would be silly for Apple to unveil a new MacBook Pro with a GPU that is 15-25% slower than the previous generation. I believe that integrated graphics will eventually be solid for gaming, but we are not quite there yet.
The NVIDIA GeForce 650 was already a poor choice to include in the MacBook Pro. The odds are if somebody wants to switch to using discrete, they intend to use it for gaming and likely are plugged into an outlet. In that case, include a better gaming GPU.
That they are waiting for Mavericks to be finalized is absolutely infuriating. I'm using Mavericks already, it's nothing worth waiting for. Release the refresh already, Cook. Stop trying to artificially increase the value and market share of your OS update by tying it to new systems. It's such a garbage tactic.
I'll jump on the dog-pile for this quote to add: Shipping hardware that soon uses outdated software is the realm of Android phones, not Macs.
Marvin
In game tests, the 650M comes out around 40% faster and this year's dGPUs will be 30% faster again so I'd say 2013 dGPUs would be ~50% faster but the OpenCL compute performance of Iris is higher than the 650M.
[...]
I could actually see them using Iris Pro in the whole 15" lineup and just lowering the prices. It has been suggested in a few places that Iris was made at Apple's request. If that's the case, it makes sense for them to use it in a big way. They won't have to deal with graphics switching any more.
The new Mac Pro can use its second GPU for calculations, rather than being a dumb parallel board. This may be too much to hope for, but a rMBP with Iris+discrete could mean excellent graphics and OpenCL-boosted apps at the same time.
Not that I want to fire up Battlefield 4 during Final Cut exports or anything...
At least graphics switching is currently on the fly. Remember when that feature required logging out?
esummers
cash907 - Other vendors have not released any machines with this chip either. Nothing beyond 2-core, Iris 5100 and lower chips so far. It is not clear if they are waiting for Mavericks or if the machine and suppliers just are not ready.
IIRC, it is related to Intel manufacturing the ultrabook-class CPU variants first.
All this debate on a possible 15-inch without having a discrete GPU is confusing me. Maybe I'm being silly or missing something obvious, but I'm just not clear on how this benchmark is being identified as a 15-inch model.
If the assumption was that J44,1 (with an i5) was supposed to be a new 13" rMBP, then wouldn't it follow that the J45,1 sporting an i7 and no discrete graphics could be a high-trim model of the new 13" rMBP? It would jive with the fact that the existing 13" rMBP has an i5 and an i7 option and that both leverage the integrated graphics.
deansolecki - They will definitely drop the discrete GPU. The Iris 5200 can almost match the 650M and can beat it in OpenCL tests. It also has the advantage of ECC memory unlike the 650M and far lower battery drain. The discrete chip is definitely going away.
There is precedent that says Apple is willing to put a iGP in a "Pro" and call it a day, but I would be very surprised if the top end MBP was restrained in this way. Unless the rMBP line took a major update, what justification would there be for doing away with the dGPU? I suppose the battery could be expanded to fill the space, although this would seem like a retro-fitting of sorts.
I'm in the camp of those that says it's too soon to drop the dGPU. It isn't unthinkable that Apple would jump the gun (they did with the 13" post-C2D MBP/MBA,) but it seems unlikely. This looks more like a move to get mid-range performance in the high-end 13"/low-end 15" without having the extra chip. This makes sense from a performance and cost perspective. Gutting the high-end graphics performance for the sake of battery life seems like a strange compromise, if they went the "retrofitted battery" direction. I'm very skeptical of this reasoning, and would bet that it won't be the case.
Yeah! I can't wait to see a MacBook Pro with no AMD or nVidia dGPU... but with Intel's GPU and their magnificent drivers. I'm sure all Pro users will be happy to see such a thing happen! Why use a dGPU while doing 3D stuff or OpenCL stuff when you can use Intel integrated super powered graphics!
While I think it's very unlikely that Apple wouldn't offer at least some models with discrete graphics, keep in mind that for a large percentage of users, discrete graphics (especially Haswell scale) is plenty.
Yeah! I can't wait to see a MacBook Pro with no AMD or nVidia dGPU... but with Intel's GPU and their magnificent drivers. I'm sure all Pro users will be happy to see such a thing happen! Why use a dGPU while doing 3D stuff or OpenCL stuff when you can use Intel integrated super powered graphics!
He needs proof? Really? You're right- I'm sure that Mountain lion and the 2012 MacBook Air just coincidently got finalized on the same day....
Something gets held up, Whether it be the hardware or software. Personally, I like the co-launch. But to pretend that they don't delay a release for either hardware or software to co-launch with it is foolish.
Or maybe they wanted to release the MacBook Air first, probably it is the best selling of all Macs and then do extensive testing/tweaking on the rMBP. You know, because of the increased power consumption of the ultra high res display and all.
Yeah! I can't wait to see a MacBook Pro with no AMD or nVidia dGPU... but with Intel's GPU and their magnificent drivers. I'm sure all Pro users will be happy to see such a thing happen! Why use a dGPU while doing 3D stuff or OpenCL stuff when you can use Intel integrated super powered graphics!
There's one here on the left, I'm sure it sells quite well:
Like the above test showed, Iris is faster than the 650M for OpenCL, sometimes by double. 3D work doesn't require the framerates of games so no problem there, plus it has shared memory so 1GB minimum for everyone (yes it's slower but there's a special Iris model with a fast GDDR5 memory cache). It has OpenGL 4 and OpenCL 1.2 support.
For raw performance, the 2013 NVidia and AMD options would be better but not for power consumption and the performance boost would be unnoticeable for actual professional work and not gaming.
If it can lower the price considerably, improve fan noise, improve battery life and sacrifice negligible performance, I'd say it's worth doing.
All this debate on a possible 15-inch without having a discrete GPU is confusing me. Maybe I'm being silly or missing something obvious, but I'm just not clear on how this benchmark is being identified as a 15-inch model.
The CPU in the listing is a very expensive mobile GPU and the TDP is higher than the CPU the 13" uses so it would considerably lower battery life.
In game tests, the 650M comes out around 40% faster and this year's dGPUs will be 30% faster again so I'd say 2013 dGPUs would be ~50% faster but the OpenCL compute performance of Iris is higher than the 650M.
The really important factor to consider is power consumption, which Intel puts at 47W
This is all great news, a step forward in tech, I'm curious to how the 5200 stacks up to newer mobile GPUs, the 650M isn't the newest card out.
So the new rMBP 15 should still keep a discreet GPU & hopefully get something newer than the 650M (GTX 770M) , to make it more worthwhile, more battery will be great too.
I can see how the 5200 is a massive upgrade to the rMBP 13, the 4000 is so so.
Comments
I think they will do one model with an integrated and one with discrete. It would be a disaster to do purely integrated especially for $2k+ "Pro" notebook. We'll see though.
Citation needed, but will never be provided, because it isn't true in the slightest, as years of evidence to the contrary prove.
Maybe stop concern trolling, too.
Doubtful.
I'm not too sure about that! A discrete GPU would significantly enhance the OpenCL potential of the machine. Even if it is never used to drive the screen a discrete GPU is a very high value item in a Pro Machine.
He needs proof? Really? You're right- I'm sure that Mountain lion and the 2012 MacBook Air just coincidently got finalized on the same day....
Something gets held up, Whether it be the hardware or software. Personally, I like the co-launch. But to pretend that they don't delay a release for either hardware or software to co-launch with it is foolish.
Any rumors about a 15" MacBook AIR??
Why would you upgrade a one year old machine anyways?
By the way this benchmark is for the most part useless unless the app has been recompiled for Haswell and its new technology. There are benefits for apps tht can make use of the new AVX instructions for example.
All you really need to do is grab a developers account to see the state of Mavericks for yourself. It has a ways to go as it is now. In other words Mavericks is no more ready than the CPU chips. Beyond that other bits of hardware are rumored to be ramping up. What is foolish is buying into the idea that anything here is even delayed. The launch schedule for Haswell has been know for six month almost, if the end of September comes and the new Mac Book Pros aren't shipping then you can say there is a delay.
Quote:
Originally Posted by esummers
deansolecki - They will definitely drop the discrete GPU. The Iris 5200 can almost match the 650M and can beat it in OpenCL tests. It also has the advantage of ECC memory unlike the 650M and far lower battery drain. The discrete chip is definitely going away.
It is unlikely that Apple will drop the discrete GPU. It would be silly for Apple to unveil a new MacBook Pro with a GPU that is 15-25% slower than the previous generation. I believe that integrated graphics will eventually be solid for gaming, but we are not quite there yet.
The NVIDIA GeForce 650 was already a poor choice to include in the MacBook Pro. The odds are if somebody wants to switch to using discrete, they intend to use it for gaming and likely are plugged into an outlet. In that case, include a better gaming GPU.
Wish they would hurry up and drop a Haswell in the iMac. I got money I need to burn too.
Plenty. It isn't happening, though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Plenty. It isn't happening, though.
I don't see a huge point in one considering the minor weight difference compared to the rmbps. You shave off a few ounces.
Cash907
That they are waiting for Mavericks to be finalized is absolutely infuriating. I'm using Mavericks already, it's nothing worth waiting for. Release the refresh already, Cook. Stop trying to artificially increase the value and market share of your OS update by tying it to new systems. It's such a garbage tactic.
I'll jump on the dog-pile for this quote to add: Shipping hardware that soon uses outdated software is the realm of Android phones, not Macs.
Marvin
In game tests, the 650M comes out around 40% faster and this year's dGPUs will be 30% faster again so I'd say 2013 dGPUs would be ~50% faster but the OpenCL compute performance of Iris is higher than the 650M.
[...]
I could actually see them using Iris Pro in the whole 15" lineup and just lowering the prices. It has been suggested in a few places that Iris was made at Apple's request. If that's the case, it makes sense for them to use it in a big way. They won't have to deal with graphics switching any more.
The new Mac Pro can use its second GPU for calculations, rather than being a dumb parallel board. This may be too much to hope for, but a rMBP with Iris+discrete could mean excellent graphics and OpenCL-boosted apps at the same time.
Not that I want to fire up Battlefield 4 during Final Cut exports or anything...
At least graphics switching is currently on the fly. Remember when that feature required logging out?
esummers
cash907 - Other vendors have not released any machines with this chip either. Nothing beyond 2-core, Iris 5100 and lower chips so far. It is not clear if they are waiting for Mavericks or if the machine and suppliers just are not ready.
IIRC, it is related to Intel manufacturing the ultrabook-class CPU variants first.
All this debate on a possible 15-inch without having a discrete GPU is confusing me. Maybe I'm being silly or missing something obvious, but I'm just not clear on how this benchmark is being identified as a 15-inch model.
If the assumption was that J44,1 (with an i5) was supposed to be a new 13" rMBP, then wouldn't it follow that the J45,1 sporting an i7 and no discrete graphics could be a high-trim model of the new 13" rMBP? It would jive with the fact that the existing 13" rMBP has an i5 and an i7 option and that both leverage the integrated graphics.
There is precedent that says Apple is willing to put a iGP in a "Pro" and call it a day, but I would be very surprised if the top end MBP was restrained in this way. Unless the rMBP line took a major update, what justification would there be for doing away with the dGPU? I suppose the battery could be expanded to fill the space, although this would seem like a retro-fitting of sorts.
I'm in the camp of those that says it's too soon to drop the dGPU. It isn't unthinkable that Apple would jump the gun (they did with the 13" post-C2D MBP/MBA,) but it seems unlikely. This looks more like a move to get mid-range performance in the high-end 13"/low-end 15" without having the extra chip. This makes sense from a performance and cost perspective. Gutting the high-end graphics performance for the sake of battery life seems like a strange compromise, if they went the "retrofitted battery" direction. I'm very skeptical of this reasoning, and would bet that it won't be the case.
While I think it's very unlikely that Apple wouldn't offer at least some models with discrete graphics, keep in mind that for a large percentage of users, discrete graphics (especially Haswell scale) is plenty.
Quote:
Originally Posted by heffeque
Yeah! I can't wait to see a MacBook Pro with no AMD or nVidia dGPU... but with Intel's GPU and their magnificent drivers. I'm sure all Pro users will be happy to see such a thing happen! Why use a dGPU while doing 3D stuff or OpenCL stuff when you can use Intel integrated super powered graphics!
I see what you did there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andysol
He needs proof? Really? You're right- I'm sure that Mountain lion and the 2012 MacBook Air just coincidently got finalized on the same day....
Something gets held up, Whether it be the hardware or software. Personally, I like the co-launch. But to pretend that they don't delay a release for either hardware or software to co-launch with it is foolish.
Or maybe they wanted to release the MacBook Air first, probably it is the best selling of all Macs and then do extensive testing/tweaking on the rMBP. You know, because of the increased power consumption of the ultra high res display and all.
There's one here on the left, I'm sure it sells quite well:
http://www.apple.com/macbook-pro/specs-retina/
Like the above test showed, Iris is faster than the 650M for OpenCL, sometimes by double. 3D work doesn't require the framerates of games so no problem there, plus it has shared memory so 1GB minimum for everyone (yes it's slower but there's a special Iris model with a fast GDDR5 memory cache). It has OpenGL 4 and OpenCL 1.2 support.
For raw performance, the 2013 NVidia and AMD options would be better but not for power consumption and the performance boost would be unnoticeable for actual professional work and not gaming.
If it can lower the price considerably, improve fan noise, improve battery life and sacrifice negligible performance, I'd say it's worth doing.
The CPU in the listing is a very expensive mobile GPU and the TDP is higher than the CPU the 13" uses so it would considerably lower battery life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin
In game tests, the 650M comes out around 40% faster and this year's dGPUs will be 30% faster again so I'd say 2013 dGPUs would be ~50% faster but the OpenCL compute performance of Iris is higher than the 650M.
The really important factor to consider is power consumption, which Intel puts at 47W
This is all great news, a step forward in tech, I'm curious to how the 5200 stacks up to newer mobile GPUs, the 650M isn't the newest card out.
So the new rMBP 15 should still keep a discreet GPU & hopefully get something newer than the 650M (GTX 770M) , to make it more worthwhile, more battery will be great too.
I can see how the 5200 is a massive upgrade to the rMBP 13, the 4000 is so so.