The hardware gap between the proposed Macbook Pro, LOL and what is offered outside the Mac eco system is just too big. I would love to buy a 17 inch MBP
with 32 gb ram, a nvidia 780m, a TB SSD, a blu ray burner, a couple of Thunderbolt and Firewire ports with USB 3, and a 6 CORE Intel chip. Audio visual pros would go crazy for something like that.
Apple cares about selling computers people would actually want, though.
I think Apple in general has a lot of experience in determining what people will accept. It seems like they tend to go for something when "acceptable" is attainable within an extra generation.
As much as I've wanted discrete GPUs, in things like the Mini in the past, I know that need for middle of the road users is quickly going away. I'm actually hoping that Haswell works out well and that many people will be surprised by its performance. If not next year should leave mst users with little desire for a discrete GPU.
I am doubtful on that one. The rmbp switched to pentalobe screws at the bottom. The bottom shell itself uses Apple's choice of anti-tamper screws. That isn't really a positive sign.
I've never really thought of those screws as anti tamper. If they wanted zero access to the internals they wold use something besides a screw.
The choice to go with soldered seems like it was a matter of height and viewing upgradable ram as a low priority. You would need 2 additional sodimms to get to 32GB, probably until DDR4. Apple has never gone with 4 installable in a notebook. If I recall correctly the really old imacs were limited to 2. I'm not so much arguing what they could do, more over past prioritization.
Honestly I'm not even sure if Intel note book line even supports two separate banks of memory. However considering Apples notebook lineup and the customer base, the 15" MBP should have a memory expansion option. In this case I'm thinking two installable DIMMs and a separate bank soldered in at the factory.
IPS in a notebook in general has been kind of a niche market thing. A few oems have tried it, as there is some amount of desire for a really nice display while mobile. Even the rmbp is nowhere near the quality you can get in a good desktop display. Of course those can be quite expensive depending on your demands. I'm not familiar with all of the engineering problems that might arise trying to build to the space and power restrictions of a notebook.
The thing is this, if the discrete GPU is dropped in the MBP then it frees up space for something. What that something is, is unknown at this time. It could be space for DIMMs, more battery space or something else. The addition of battery capacity might allow them to be more flexible with display technology. There is an obvious limit to what one can do with a display in a notebook but technology is marching forward. It will be interesting to see what screen technology goes into the next rev.
The hardware gap between the proposed Macbook Pro, LOL and what is offered outside the Mac eco system is just too big.
There is a big difference between what is proposed and what actually ships.
I would love to buy a 17 inch MBP
Who knows maybe Apple will see the error of their ways. I think the market rejection of the retina model ought to be a wake up call for Apple so maybe they will rethink the 17". Frankly over the last couple of years before its discontinuation the 17" suffered from the same neglects as the Mac Pro.
with 32 gb ram, a nvidia 780m, a TB SSD, a blu ray burner, a couple of Thunderbolt and Firewire ports with USB 3, and a 6 CORE Intel chip. Audio visual pros would go crazy for something like that.
That won't happen this year anyways. Mainly because Intels six core solutions are way too hot. Beyond that you want your SSD to be on the PCI Express bus internally.
I think the market rejection of the retina model ought to be a wake up call for Apple so maybe they will rethink the 17".
The market hasn't rejected the Retina model for any other reason than it being too expensive and the solution to that won't be anything that costs $2500+. They need to get prices down at the entry level. They already dropped prices once but it'll need to get close to the old one. Part of the price hike was the move to SSD and this also comes with a dramatic drop in storage, which is difficult for some to migrate to as there's no other storage in there. Over the years, people have been building up to an entry level of 500GB and now it not only starts at 128GB but it's also more expensive. To get a 512GB Retina from Apple costs $700 more than the old model. If they manage to get the entry Retina down to $1299, that makes the difference $500 but it's still a big difference. Once SSD prices drop by half again in 2-3 years, it'll be much easier to deal with and they'll have DDR4 too so the 13" should get a 16GB option and the 15" may get a 32GB option.
The MacBook Pro really fell into place once the unibody design came out and the retina will fall into place in a year or two. They are on the right track with the Haswell, will get better with Broadwell, and then get even better with Skymont in terms of the whole works; price, power, and graphics.
The market hasn't rejected the Retina model for any other reason than it being too expensive and the solution to that won't be anything that costs $2500+. They need to get prices down at the entry level. They already dropped prices once but it'll need to get close to the old one. Part of the price hike was the move to SSD and this also comes with a dramatic drop in storage, which is difficult for some to migrate to as there's no other storage in there. Over the years, people have been building up to an entry level of 500GB and now it not only starts at 128GB but it's also more expensive. To get a 512GB Retina from Apple costs $700 more than the old model. If they manage to get the entry Retina down to $1299, that makes the difference $500 but it's still a big difference. Once SSD prices drop by half again in 2-3 years, it'll be much easier to deal with and they'll have DDR4 too so the 13" should get a 16GB option and the 15" may get a 32GB option.
I agree, i think it's the price that's stopping people from considering the 15 rMBP, I've had many conversations with people, rMBP is the machine on the top of their lists, if it didn't have such a price, I bought one anyways, but the amount of people that sound envious is pretty random, people lust over it, non mac people too, it all comes back to the price.
I knew a guy that almost got one, he spec'd it up (on the apple site), then decided to look for a PC clone, he found one with kinda similar 'specs' slightly lower price, I shook my head.
The PC didn't have an IPS display & poor build quality, thats what passes for a high end PC...
By "people" you mean you. People have different needs, obviously. Audio visual pros who travel need as much power as possible. Interesting to note that when Apple stopped selling the big boy 17 incher sales of Macs declined for the first time in a decade. From a practical standpoint there isn't much difference between a macbook air and the current so called "pro" model, and that is a shame.
Interesting to note that when Apple stopped selling the big boy 17 incher sales of Macs declined for the first time in a decade.
Interesting to note that they also weren't selling a little thing called the iMac at all during that quarter. the 17" was discontinued due to lack of sales. You cannot possibly claim it was responsible for lesser sales.
If you want a continuation of the 17" MacBook Pro, buy a Razer Blade Pro. The 17" MacBook Pro was just the 15" MacBook Pro with a larger screen. While it should have more power, it never did have more power.
Like many others in LA, I am still dependent on Pro Tools Avid system and the hundreds of plugins developed ON THE MAC. Pro Tools on Windows is not the standard for professionals as almost every high end studio has Apple.
Like many others in LA, I am still dependent on Pro Tools Avid system and the hundreds of plugins developed ON THE MAC. Pro Tools on Windows is not the standard for professionals as almost every high end studio has Apple.
It's unfortunate for you because it seems their highest end notebook from here on out is the 15" rMBP. Maybe they'll square it all together and make you partially happy so you don't have to rely on old hardware.
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Originally Posted by <strong>Tallest Skil</strong> <a href="/t/159173/haswell-based-macbook-pros-expected-to-ship-in-september-report/40#post_2385194"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" /></a><br />
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</p>
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Interesting to note that they also weren't selling a little thing called the iMac at all during that quarter. the 17" was discontinued <em>due to lack of sales</em>. You cannot possibly claim it was responsible for lesser sales.</p>
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Of course you can. It was selling <em>some</em>, sales weren't zero. If in cancelling the 17" MBP Apple drove those customers to 17" PC laptops instead of 15" MBPs (or other Apple whatevers) then (all other things being equal) sales would have fallen. And it's inevitable that some of those customers would have gone the PC route. </p>
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</p>
<p>
Maybe the loss in numbers isn't significant to Apple, and maybe the numbers don't make 17" MBP a worthwhile business proposition, but those particular numbers will have fallen nevertheless. How big a proportion they made of the overall fall in sales is a matter of speculation in lieu of specifics. You cannot possibly claim otherwise, it simply doesn't make sense.</p>
An observation is not a premise. His observation is correct.
"Apple discontinued the 17" MacBook Pro and sales declined." The implication being that sales declined because of the discontinuation of the MacBook Pro and nothing else.
Interesting to note that they also weren't selling a little thing called the iMac at all during that quarter. the 17" was discontinued due to lack of sales. You cannot possibly claim it was responsible for lesser sales.
I'm still a little shocked that they took the imac off the market that long.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69
As much as I've wanted discrete GPUs, in things like the Mini in the past, I know that need for middle of the road users is quickly going away. I'm actually hoping that Haswell works out well and that many people will be surprised by its performance. If not next year should leave mst users with little desire for a discrete GPU.
I usually look one generation past their major changes. Intel has another die shrink after that. If Apple is switching now, that is probably the interesting one. For lighter users any gpu works as long as it is stable and reasonably free of glitches. I feel that point is often overlooked.
Quote:
I've never really thought of those screws as anti tamper. If they wanted zero access to the internals they wold use something besides a screw.
They have used them internally in the past. There are always parts that are considered user serviceable and those that aren't. When you begin to approach those that are not considered user serviceable, they switch to screw types that are not what you would find in a typical toolbox or set of micro screwdrivers. Generally I would return a machine to stock configuration if I needed warranty service anyway.
Quote:
Honestly I'm not even sure if Intel note book line even supports two separate banks of memory. However considering Apples notebook lineup and the customer base, the 15" MBP should have a memory expansion option. In this case I'm thinking two installable DIMMs and a separate bank soldered in at the factory.
I'm not sure what you mean by that first line. There are notebooks that support 4 sodimms.
Quote:
The thing is this, if the discrete GPU is dropped in the MBP then it frees up space for something. What that something is, is unknown at this time. It could be space for DIMMs, more battery space or something else. The addition of battery capacity might allow them to be more flexible with display technology. There is an obvious limit to what one can do with a display in a notebook but technology is marching forward. It will be interesting to see what screen technology goes into the next rev.
Regarding display technology, I was more interested by the use of IPS and efforts to improve the rendering of text and graphics more than the bump in resolution. The high resolution 15" and the 17" at 1920x1200 both provided reasonable sharpness. Areas that I felt could improve were viewing angles and overall rendering, especially gamma. The resolution wasn't anything terribly low, but there is room for notebook display improvement. I suspect if they drop the dGPU, it will go to battery capacity. It would alleviate graphics switching bugs and issues like the 2011 underpowered power brick. I'm not personally hung up on discrete gpus in notebooks as long as intel drivers are stable. I've been over that before. As of today, there's still an immense difference between the gpus that can be implemented in a notebook and the top offerings from NVidia and AMD. Starting in the the mobile segment, it will just be another element gradually absorbed into the cpu package. It's not like this hasn't happened before. Notebooks overall have to offer some kind of value. Right now the rmbp in my opinion doesn't offer that. You can't really cushion the price by upgrading storage or ram later, so the amount required to configure to taste may not represent a good value for everyone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin
The market hasn't rejected the Retina model for any other reason than it being too expensive and the solution to that won't be anything that costs $2500+. They need to get prices down at the entry level. They already dropped prices once but it'll need to get close to the old one. Part of the price hike was the move to SSD and this also comes with a dramatic drop in storage, which is difficult for some to migrate to as there's no other storage in there. Over the years, people have been building up to an entry level of 500GB and now it not only starts at 128GB but it's also more expensive. To get a 512GB Retina from Apple costs $700 more than the old model. If they manage to get the entry Retina down to $1299, that makes the difference $500 but it's still a big difference. Once SSD prices drop by half again in 2-3 years, it'll be much easier to deal with and they'll have DDR4 too so the 13" should get a 16GB option and the 15" may get a 32GB option.
That will definitely be in the DDR4 era. Some dimm types do have 16GB sticks available today, but I don't foresee that happening with sodimms. That market is adequately covered by the mobile workstation types that allow for 4 sodimms in a given notebook. Chasing a market like that would be divergent from Apple's past strategy.
I'm still a little shocked that they took the imac off the market that long.
I am glad that such a grievous error was 1. made (and recognized) early in the tenure of Tim Cook and his team and 2. concerning such a relatively safe part of the company, such as not to cause huge upheaval.
Since they've publicly regretted it, I'm confident it won't happen again.
I am glad that such a grievous error was 1. made (and recognized) early in the tenure of Tim Cook and his team and 2. concerning such a relatively safe part of the company, such as not to cause huge upheaval.
Since they've publicly regretted it, I'm confident it won't happen again.
I definitely don't think they'll do that again. I suspect they initially planned to have at least the 21" models shipping right after that announcement. Personally I thought they would delay any major design changes by a generation if they were running that far behind. My predictions are often wrong, but I usually just make them tangential to cumulative behavior over the past 3 year~ span. It's just speculation on my part. They have been more aggressive than I expected on some things.
The market hasn't rejected the Retina model for any other reason than it being too expensive and the solution to that won't be anything that costs $2500+. They need to get prices down at the entry level.
While I agree price is a big factor it isn't the only one as you point out below. The point is retina isn't a big enough positive to overcome the Mac Book Pros (retina) negative issues.
They already dropped prices once but it'll need to get close to the old one. Part of the price hike was the move to SSD and this also comes with a dramatic drop in storage, which is difficult for some to migrate to as there's no other storage in there.
The high price of storage is a factor but the bigger issue is not enough storage no matter how much you are whiling to spend. The lack of a really huge internal storage option is strang in a machine marketed to Pros as some of those pros will use all the internal storage they can get access too.
Over the years, people have been building up to an entry level of 500GB and now it not only starts at 128GB but it's also more expensive. To get a 512GB Retina from Apple costs $700 more than the old model. If they manage to get the entry Retina down to $1299, that makes the difference $500 but it's still a big difference.
The lack or storage is a problem equal or at times larger than the cost of that storage. That Apple of all companies would mis this issue so badly in a machine targeting pros is beyond belief. The machine is simply useless to many of the people that would be most interested in it due to no mass internal storage option. If you remember back before the retina model arrived one of the things I advocated was the producing the unit with multiple SSD slots. This would have went a very long way to giving that portion of the Pro market that needed it an option to increase internal storage.
Once SSD prices drop by half again in 2-3 years, it'll be much easier to deal with and they'll have DDR4 too so the 13" should get a 16GB option and the 15" may get a 32GB option.
If it takes 2-3 year to get the price under control while meeting customer hardware expectations the retina MBP will be dead as a model. It is too limited for the vast needs of the "Pro" market and too expensive for the casual buyer. Pros need computers that work for them, that means a machine with features that not every Pro needs, but enough features to cover a broad market. Seriously it looks like Apple confused what was successful in the AIR market with what is needed in the Pro market.
Comments
Originally Posted by Trajan Long
The hardware gap between the proposed Macbook Pro, LOL and what is offered outside the Mac eco system is just too big. I would love to buy a 17 inch MBP
with 32 gb ram, a nvidia 780m, a TB SSD, a blu ray burner, a couple of Thunderbolt and Firewire ports with USB 3, and a 6 CORE Intel chip. Audio visual pros would go crazy for something like that.
Apple cares about selling computers people would actually want, though.
The market hasn't rejected the Retina model for any other reason than it being too expensive and the solution to that won't be anything that costs $2500+. They need to get prices down at the entry level. They already dropped prices once but it'll need to get close to the old one. Part of the price hike was the move to SSD and this also comes with a dramatic drop in storage, which is difficult for some to migrate to as there's no other storage in there. Over the years, people have been building up to an entry level of 500GB and now it not only starts at 128GB but it's also more expensive. To get a 512GB Retina from Apple costs $700 more than the old model. If they manage to get the entry Retina down to $1299, that makes the difference $500 but it's still a big difference. Once SSD prices drop by half again in 2-3 years, it'll be much easier to deal with and they'll have DDR4 too so the 13" should get a 16GB option and the 15" may get a 32GB option.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin
The market hasn't rejected the Retina model for any other reason than it being too expensive and the solution to that won't be anything that costs $2500+. They need to get prices down at the entry level. They already dropped prices once but it'll need to get close to the old one. Part of the price hike was the move to SSD and this also comes with a dramatic drop in storage, which is difficult for some to migrate to as there's no other storage in there. Over the years, people have been building up to an entry level of 500GB and now it not only starts at 128GB but it's also more expensive. To get a 512GB Retina from Apple costs $700 more than the old model. If they manage to get the entry Retina down to $1299, that makes the difference $500 but it's still a big difference. Once SSD prices drop by half again in 2-3 years, it'll be much easier to deal with and they'll have DDR4 too so the 13" should get a 16GB option and the 15" may get a 32GB option.
I agree, i think it's the price that's stopping people from considering the 15 rMBP, I've had many conversations with people, rMBP is the machine on the top of their lists, if it didn't have such a price, I bought one anyways, but the amount of people that sound envious is pretty random, people lust over it, non mac people too, it all comes back to the price.
I knew a guy that almost got one, he spec'd it up (on the apple site), then decided to look for a PC clone, he found one with kinda similar 'specs' slightly lower price, I shook my head.
The PC didn't have an IPS display & poor build quality, thats what passes for a high end PC...
By "people" you mean you. People have different needs, obviously. Audio visual pros who travel need as much power as possible. Interesting to note that when Apple stopped selling the big boy 17 incher sales of Macs declined for the first time in a decade. From a practical standpoint there isn't much difference between a macbook air and the current so called "pro" model, and that is a shame.
Originally Posted by Trajan Long
Interesting to note that when Apple stopped selling the big boy 17 incher sales of Macs declined for the first time in a decade.
Interesting to note that they also weren't selling a little thing called the iMac at all during that quarter. the 17" was discontinued due to lack of sales. You cannot possibly claim it was responsible for lesser sales.
Like many others in LA, I am still dependent on Pro Tools Avid system and the hundreds of plugins developed ON THE MAC. Pro Tools on Windows is not the standard for professionals as almost every high end studio has Apple.
It's unfortunate for you because it seems their highest end notebook from here on out is the 15" rMBP. Maybe they'll square it all together and make you partially happy so you don't have to rely on old hardware.
<span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">
Originally Posted by <strong>Tallest Skil</strong> <a href="/t/159173/haswell-based-macbook-pros-expected-to-ship-in-september-report/40#post_2385194"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" /></a><br />
<br />
<p>
</p>
<p>
Interesting to note that they also weren't selling a little thing called the iMac at all during that quarter. the 17" was discontinued <em>due to lack of sales</em>. You cannot possibly claim it was responsible for lesser sales.</p>
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<p>
Of course you can. It was selling <em>some</em>, sales weren't zero. If in cancelling the 17" MBP Apple drove those customers to 17" PC laptops instead of 15" MBPs (or other Apple whatevers) then (all other things being equal) sales would have fallen. And it's inevitable that some of those customers would have gone the PC route. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
Maybe the loss in numbers isn't significant to Apple, and maybe the numbers don't make 17" MBP a worthwhile business proposition, but those particular numbers will have fallen nevertheless. How big a proportion they made of the overall fall in sales is a matter of speculation in lieu of specifics. You cannot possibly claim otherwise, it simply doesn't make sense.</p>
Originally Posted by Crowley
Of course you can. It was selling some, sales weren't zero.
His premise is false, however.
An observation is not a premise. His observation is correct.
Originally Posted by Crowley
An observation is not a premise. His observation is correct.
"Apple discontinued the 17" MacBook Pro and sales declined." The implication being that sales declined because of the discontinuation of the MacBook Pro and nothing else.
No, sorry. Just completely wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Interesting to note that they also weren't selling a little thing called the iMac at all during that quarter. the 17" was discontinued due to lack of sales. You cannot possibly claim it was responsible for lesser sales.
I'm still a little shocked that they took the imac off the market that long.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69
As much as I've wanted discrete GPUs, in things like the Mini in the past, I know that need for middle of the road users is quickly going away. I'm actually hoping that Haswell works out well and that many people will be surprised by its performance. If not next year should leave mst users with little desire for a discrete GPU.
I usually look one generation past their major changes. Intel has another die shrink after that. If Apple is switching now, that is probably the interesting one. For lighter users any gpu works as long as it is stable and reasonably free of glitches. I feel that point is often overlooked.
Quote:
I've never really thought of those screws as anti tamper. If they wanted zero access to the internals they wold use something besides a screw.
They have used them internally in the past. There are always parts that are considered user serviceable and those that aren't. When you begin to approach those that are not considered user serviceable, they switch to screw types that are not what you would find in a typical toolbox or set of micro screwdrivers. Generally I would return a machine to stock configuration if I needed warranty service anyway.
Quote:
Honestly I'm not even sure if Intel note book line even supports two separate banks of memory. However considering Apples notebook lineup and the customer base, the 15" MBP should have a memory expansion option. In this case I'm thinking two installable DIMMs and a separate bank soldered in at the factory.
I'm not sure what you mean by that first line. There are notebooks that support 4 sodimms.
Quote:
The thing is this, if the discrete GPU is dropped in the MBP then it frees up space for something. What that something is, is unknown at this time. It could be space for DIMMs, more battery space or something else. The addition of battery capacity might allow them to be more flexible with display technology. There is an obvious limit to what one can do with a display in a notebook but technology is marching forward. It will be interesting to see what screen technology goes into the next rev.
Regarding display technology, I was more interested by the use of IPS and efforts to improve the rendering of text and graphics more than the bump in resolution. The high resolution 15" and the 17" at 1920x1200 both provided reasonable sharpness. Areas that I felt could improve were viewing angles and overall rendering, especially gamma. The resolution wasn't anything terribly low, but there is room for notebook display improvement. I suspect if they drop the dGPU, it will go to battery capacity. It would alleviate graphics switching bugs and issues like the 2011 underpowered power brick. I'm not personally hung up on discrete gpus in notebooks as long as intel drivers are stable. I've been over that before. As of today, there's still an immense difference between the gpus that can be implemented in a notebook and the top offerings from NVidia and AMD. Starting in the the mobile segment, it will just be another element gradually absorbed into the cpu package. It's not like this hasn't happened before. Notebooks overall have to offer some kind of value. Right now the rmbp in my opinion doesn't offer that. You can't really cushion the price by upgrading storage or ram later, so the amount required to configure to taste may not represent a good value for everyone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin
The market hasn't rejected the Retina model for any other reason than it being too expensive and the solution to that won't be anything that costs $2500+. They need to get prices down at the entry level. They already dropped prices once but it'll need to get close to the old one. Part of the price hike was the move to SSD and this also comes with a dramatic drop in storage, which is difficult for some to migrate to as there's no other storage in there. Over the years, people have been building up to an entry level of 500GB and now it not only starts at 128GB but it's also more expensive. To get a 512GB Retina from Apple costs $700 more than the old model. If they manage to get the entry Retina down to $1299, that makes the difference $500 but it's still a big difference. Once SSD prices drop by half again in 2-3 years, it'll be much easier to deal with and they'll have DDR4 too so the 13" should get a 16GB option and the 15" may get a 32GB option.
That will definitely be in the DDR4 era. Some dimm types do have 16GB sticks available today, but I don't foresee that happening with sodimms. That market is adequately covered by the mobile workstation types that allow for 4 sodimms in a given notebook. Chasing a market like that would be divergent from Apple's past strategy.
Originally Posted by hmm
I'm still a little shocked that they took the imac off the market that long.
I am glad that such a grievous error was 1. made (and recognized) early in the tenure of Tim Cook and his team and 2. concerning such a relatively safe part of the company, such as not to cause huge upheaval.
Since they've publicly regretted it, I'm confident it won't happen again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
I am glad that such a grievous error was 1. made (and recognized) early in the tenure of Tim Cook and his team and 2. concerning such a relatively safe part of the company, such as not to cause huge upheaval.
Since they've publicly regretted it, I'm confident it won't happen again.
I definitely don't think they'll do that again. I suspect they initially planned to have at least the 21" models shipping right after that announcement. Personally I thought they would delay any major design changes by a generation if they were running that far behind. My predictions are often wrong, but I usually just make them tangential to cumulative behavior over the past 3 year~ span. It's just speculation on my part. They have been more aggressive than I expected on some things.
If it takes 2-3 year to get the price under control while meeting customer hardware expectations the retina MBP will be dead as a model. It is too limited for the vast needs of the "Pro" market and too expensive for the casual buyer. Pros need computers that work for them, that means a machine with features that not every Pro needs, but enough features to cover a broad market. Seriously it looks like Apple confused what was successful in the AIR market with what is needed in the Pro market.