I actually played with this Sony-U1 thingie last weekend (in Tokyo)...unimpressed.
This thing is intended not to be used by 10 fingers- but rather just 2 thumbs... The japs have recently been dubbed the new "thumbs" generation and this I guess is Sonys contribution.
The rocker buttons (intended for cursor navigation) is a shitty replacement for the already shitty "pencil-top-eraser" do-hickey found on their C1/Picturebook. I personally prefer the ergonomics of the C1 myself (at least I can squeeze all 10 of my average-asian fingers on that keyboard!)
I for one am still eagerly awaiting the day for Apple to make a subnote the size of the Sony-Picturebook... heck if I have to wait another 6-months, I might actually just buy the Sony!...plus this subnote is already in its 3rd-generation and up to 867mhz!!! (drool...)
I've read a lot of complaints around the C1. Bad hard drives, bad batteries and a few others. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, every time I see one here I want one! Have you seen the Fujitsu P series? I've only read kudos for this machine, it's only a little bigger than the C1 and it has a DVD/CD-RW built right in.
Ive played with the Fujitsu/LOOX...it comes in 3 configs here. If you compare the C1 and Fujitsu side-by-side, you are gonna think the fujitsu is chunky and ugly-as-sin compared to the Sony. Once the software is loaded, I for one never have needed the CD-Rom drive whilst I was on the road. (I use a Pismo500 now and always have my second battery installed and the DVD-drive left at home). With the subnote book concept, my main concern is ultimate portability...and that includes sacrifices such as leaving out the drive to save weight, and getting used to a reduced keyboard to save space.
People always pick on the lame digicam on the C1...I for one think its pretty neato (plus the fact that I already have a Sony P5 digicam that takes 3.2 megapixels if I wanted hi-quality)
Now if Apple would port OSX and license to Sony....yummy.
I have a friend who knew a VP who worked at Sony HQ Canada in North York (404/Finch area). If you're coming next summer (2003) I wouldn't worry about it, this guy told my friend Sony has as 90 day shelf life for Laptops before new models come out. So you'll miss what, 4 or 5 product cycles? If you meant this summer then you'll be here in time for the next cycle, which should mean the Japanese bluetooth model sold there now. I'm not positive but last time I was at the Sony Store at the Eaton Center (a weeks ago) I think it was $2899 or there abouts.
....and because iSteve is such a fan of Sony...If Apple were to mimic a VAIO subnote- I predict the price to be in the same price-range, approx $2200US give or take $100US.
It would be a bit pricey for something with reduced features, but for others (execs, us toy/gadget-mongers, and Escher) we would willingly fork over the $$$.
<strong> $2200US... would be a bit pricey for something with reduced features, but for others (execs, us toy/gadget-mongers, and Escher) we would willingly fork over the $$$.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You got that right, fireants22. I'd gladly pay more than iBook prices for a Picturebook-sized portable Mac.
As I'm starting to lead a sedentary lifestyle (i.e. have my own place and don't move every year), I'm realizing that I want a nice desktop and a small laptop for the road and for the yard. Right now, my iBook is my main machine. (Only my wife uses the iMac.) Come this summer/fall, I'm thinking about getting a PowerMac and synchronizing with the iBook on a daily basis. With such a setup, I will really be ready for the true subnotebook, akin to the Sony Picturebook C1.
LOL! I almost fell out of my seat! Escher, are you using OS X on your iBook? Which version of the iBook do you have? The iBook, if it was just faster, is one of my all-time personal favs. You and I probably think alike. My Color Classic is another fav. I'm going Power Color Classic, with the cool 6500 (remote, A/V, etc) this summer! Perfect for my future dorm room this fall (I'm dreading but eagerly awaiting college), along with that new iBook we'll be seeing at MWNY, of course
Escher and Co., I think the best possible way to go about what everyone is describing, with the least amount of redundancy, is to bring back the Duo. This concept is awesome. I have a pimped out Duo Dock, with ethernet, big hard drive, etc. The Mini Dock, and a 2300. It is very cool. If they were to make a Duo G4, with a full-size keyboard, sacrificing the size of the other keys (kind of like the iBook, that's a nice layout) don't you think this would sell? How did the Duo do? I can't believe they dropped something so cool. But then again, how about that Newton. Jeez. But anyway, the Dock could come with your choice of optical drives, more RAM slots, PCI, oh man it would be cool! And we all know how much Steve Jobs likes his Dock
I really think it's all about marketing and price. People are dumb, or at least, they don't care enough to look into things very far. Price and gimmicky numbers. So, I'm guessing the Duo was expensive (I got mine for free from Dartmouth!) And of course, it seems like everyone who doesn't own a Mac, and even a few who do, hate them, for all the lame reasons we've heard. Today I heard someone ask their friend when they were going to get a "normal" computer instead of their iMac. I reassured the iMac owner how lucky he was, but his friend just told me to shut up. We need some cool commercials or something!
Anyway, my iBook is still sweet in 9/will be in Jaguar. But I'm sure Apple could still sell Duos.
LOL, a swiveling laptop screen? That's such a joke. Nobody needs a swiveling laptop display, all you do is turn the laptop, it's easy. That Sony is nothing more than a gimmick.
It seems like these Apple subnote threads pop up every couple of weeks, but I always feel obligated to say something...
First of all let me say that I am writing this on a Fujitsu LOOX, but not the larger one with the DVD drive -- the smaller S series that they only sell in Japan. It is essentially the same size as the picture book but without the stupid camera and with a slightly worse keyboard. Oh, and it cost me about $700 new because I got it just as a new model was being released (it normally retails for more like $1200 -- which is still a great deal). Sony's machines are ridiculously overpriced.
I agree that the two Sony machines in this thread are not really practical. I think Sony does them more as displays of their technological prowess than as machines that they will sell a lot of. I was sort of hopeful when I first heard about the "U" but the fact that you are supposed to type with your thumbs and the fact that the battery is that stupid external thing really turned me off. I used it a bit in a store and found the screen to be too small for the resolution and the pointing device was hard to use.
Steve Jobs seems to require that portables have built-in optical drives, and the fact that the cube failed seems to make any similar portable product unlikely (a subnotenote, like the cube, would be small and limited in performance compared to larger, cheaper machines). Still, I really really want one. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" /> Not holding my breath though.
You are all so far behind what the future PC devices are. It is very sad. :-(
The Honeywell Webpad, Viewsonic Viewpad, FIC AquaPad, Fujitsu tablet devices, and on and on and on are devices that are the future.
There should be no argument on how big or small the keyboard is because it shouldn't need one. If you want one, get the one you like. Just like you can do with a full size system. You can get "Tablet PC" with every option that laptops come with. Some even look like a Laptop, that is until you split it in half and leave the keyboard behind. In the PC world these things have existed for years.
APPLE needs to wake up. The iPad is almost 2 years behind the technology curve(Archos already has a multimedia audio/video player/recorder). The G# PB is certainly farther behind then that.
It weighs a pound less than my PB Wallstreet, that is over 4 years old, and runs faster but the PB Ti is just the same old standard laptop design.
Yes I agree, there is a market for sub-notebooks. Apple will probably figure this out in 4 or 5 years.
<strong>You are all so far behind what the future PC devices are. It is very sad. :-(</strong><hr></blockquote>
Do I dare say I smell flamebait?
It's one thing for people to have ideas and prototypes, regardless of whether it's PC companies or crazy rumormongers on AI. It's an entirely different thing to have a functional and useful shipping product. Many tablets and sub-subnotebooks so far have been different, maybe even innovative from a miniaturization perspective, but hardly useful.
Finally, let me explain again what should be perfectly obvious: a subnotebook and a tablet do not target the same market. There is hardly any overlap between the two categories. Sure you can add a keyboard to a tablet, or remove the keyboard from a subnotebook. But a tablet with a keyboard will not be functionally equivalent to a subnotebook. Nor will a subnotebook without a keyboard be functionally equivalent to a tablet.
Tablets in their current form are garbage. Plain and simple. The ONLY people buying them are people in specialized areas who need to have a mobile data input/viewing device. People who can't sit down with a keyboard and type.
When they get better and cheaper (near parity with consumer notebooks) they still won't sell well because they'll be completely outclassed by good old pen and paper. It's cheap, it goes anywhere, and it feels natural Go ahead and actually try to write on a touch screen. OK for brief notes, a total headache for anything else.
Size also works against the tablet. The only advantage is the ability to use it while standing and input with one hand. Thus, the bigger it gets the more unwieldly it becomes. But, if it stays small, it can't replace your conventional laptop screens.
THE ONLY CHANCE for a successful tablet is a SMALL SUBNOTE that converts into a tablet. No wierd pivots either, just a screen that folds right over (360 degrees, like a book) and has a bit of a spine on one edge to hold comfortably.
EVERYTHING ELSE is delusion. Handwriting recognition isn't there and neither is speech. They're both OK, but not much beter than that. Take the claims of 95% accuracy for speech dictation -- sounds good but it's still a mistake every 20 words, that makes for SLOW progress. You'll note that after the initial fervor for natural speech dictation the market has died down. Why? cause basically it still sucks, and those who've tried it know. Anyone who can type reasonably well knows that a keyboard is the fastest data entry tool a human will likely ever use.
A tablet mode might appear on some smaller sub-note products, but that's it. Once people get it in their hands they realize how limited it actually is -- standing room only use -- in every other mode a keyboard wins, easily.
You got that right, fireants22. I'd gladly pay more than iBook prices for a Picturebook-sized portable Mac.
As I'm starting to lead a sedentary lifestyle (i.e. have my own place and don't move every year), I'm realizing that I want a nice desktop and a small laptop for the road and for the yard. Right now, my iBook is my main machine. (Only my wife uses the iMac.) Come this summer/fall, I'm thinking about getting a PowerMac and synchronizing with the iBook on a daily basis. With such a setup, I will really be ready for the true subnotebook, akin to the Sony Picturebook C1.
Escher</strong><hr></blockquote>
You and I really are thinking alike. I used to make ten international trips a year so I lived out of my PowerBook (currently a Pismo 500). Recently my job doesn't entail so much traveling. Last August I got a QS 867 with a cinema display. It is fabulous. I would love to trade in the Pismo on an iBook Lite. That would be just enough to complement the G4 tower. Something to take on short trips. Something with an airport card and light enough to carry around town. An iBook would be OK if they would just shave off two pounds.
I like my Pismo - I need a full-size keyboard. But some of the keys are not full-sized.
I don't like the fact that the Titbook's keyboard doesn't extend to the edges. I'venever actually typed on oe, so I don't know if the typing situation is okay.
I too have large hands. And large everything. That happens when you're 6'4" and weigh 310 pounds.
oh, by the way, remember that HoneyWell Web Tablet in Popular Science? It runs the MacOS!!!
No joke!
The picture in Pop Sci clearly had a OS 9 Internet Explorer running on it!
OK, maybe a joke. It did have this, but we all know how designers use Macs. Heck, didn't we see an ad for Windows XP running on an 8500? I remember seeing lots of funny stuff in Office Space, like trying to make a Mac look like Windows (accessing A\) I just find it funny that they used a Mac to have a mock-up display for the screen of the tablet.
Is it just me or did it look like it was running MacOS!? I'll try and find a picture later.
oh, by the way, remember that HoneyWell Web Tablet in Popular Science? It runs the MacOS!!!
No joke!
The picture in Pop Sci clearly had a OS 9 Internet Explorer running on it!
OK, maybe a joke. It did have this, but we all know how designers use Macs. Heck, didn't we see an ad for Windows XP running on an 8500? I remember seeing lots of funny stuff in Office Space, like trying to make a Mac look like Windows (accessing A\) I just find it funny that they used a Mac to have a mock-up display for the screen of the tablet.
Is it just me or did it look like it was running MacOS!? I'll try and find a picture later.
Comments
<a href="http://www.dynamism.com/gt1/gallery flix/swivel.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.dynamism.com/gt1/gallery flix/swivel.jpg</a>
This and with a stylus. Will made the iBook a device similar the Newton MessagePad.
And with the introduction of Mac OS X' Ink. It's very possible that future iBook will be very capable of using a stylus for its text input.
This thing is intended not to be used by 10 fingers- but rather just 2 thumbs... The japs have recently been dubbed the new "thumbs" generation and this I guess is Sonys contribution.
The rocker buttons (intended for cursor navigation) is a shitty replacement for the already shitty "pencil-top-eraser" do-hickey found on their C1/Picturebook. I personally prefer the ergonomics of the C1 myself (at least I can squeeze all 10 of my average-asian fingers on that keyboard!)
I for one am still eagerly awaiting the day for Apple to make a subnote the size of the Sony-Picturebook... heck if I have to wait another 6-months, I might actually just buy the Sony!...plus this subnote is already in its 3rd-generation and up to 867mhz!!! (drool...)
Check it out: <a href="http://webshop.fujitsupc.com/fpc/Ecommerce/buildseriesbean.do?series=P2"; target="_blank">http://webshop.fujitsupc.com/fpc/Ecommerce/buildseriesbean.do?series=P2</a>;
PS: It's super cheap too!!!!
C1: Size (W x D x H)
9.9" x 6.0" x 1.2"
P series: 10.6"(w) x 7"(d) x 1.59"(h)
Only 3.4 lbs with combo drive and main battery
[ 05-10-2002: Message edited by: JasonPP ]</p>
People always pick on the lame digicam on the C1...I for one think its pretty neato (plus the fact that I already have a Sony P5 digicam that takes 3.2 megapixels if I wanted hi-quality)
Now if Apple would port OSX and license to Sony....yummy.
How much is the C1 going for in $cdn ?
I am going home to Toronto next summer and just wondering about Vaio pricing...
It would be a bit pricey for something with reduced features, but for others (execs, us toy/gadget-mongers, and Escher) we would willingly fork over the $$$.
<strong> $2200US... would be a bit pricey for something with reduced features, but for others (execs, us toy/gadget-mongers, and Escher) we would willingly fork over the $$$.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You got that right, fireants22. I'd gladly pay more than iBook prices for a Picturebook-sized portable Mac.
As I'm starting to lead a sedentary lifestyle (i.e. have my own place and don't move every year), I'm realizing that I want a nice desktop and a small laptop for the road and for the yard. Right now, my iBook is my main machine. (Only my wife uses the iMac.) Come this summer/fall, I'm thinking about getting a PowerMac and synchronizing with the iBook on a daily basis. With such a setup, I will really be ready for the true subnotebook, akin to the Sony Picturebook C1.
Escher
...and Escher.
<hr></blockquote>
LOL! I almost fell out of my seat! Escher, are you using OS X on your iBook? Which version of the iBook do you have? The iBook, if it was just faster, is one of my all-time personal favs. You and I probably think alike. My Color Classic is another fav. I'm going Power Color Classic, with the cool 6500 (remote, A/V, etc) this summer! Perfect for my future dorm room this fall (I'm dreading but eagerly awaiting college), along with that new iBook we'll be seeing at MWNY, of course
Escher and Co., I think the best possible way to go about what everyone is describing, with the least amount of redundancy, is to bring back the Duo. This concept is awesome. I have a pimped out Duo Dock, with ethernet, big hard drive, etc. The Mini Dock, and a 2300. It is very cool. If they were to make a Duo G4, with a full-size keyboard, sacrificing the size of the other keys (kind of like the iBook, that's a nice layout) don't you think this would sell? How did the Duo do? I can't believe they dropped something so cool. But then again, how about that Newton. Jeez. But anyway, the Dock could come with your choice of optical drives, more RAM slots, PCI, oh man it would be cool! And we all know how much Steve Jobs likes his Dock
I really think it's all about marketing and price. People are dumb, or at least, they don't care enough to look into things very far. Price and gimmicky numbers. So, I'm guessing the Duo was expensive (I got mine for free from Dartmouth!) And of course, it seems like everyone who doesn't own a Mac, and even a few who do, hate them, for all the lame reasons we've heard. Today I heard someone ask their friend when they were going to get a "normal" computer instead of their iMac. I reassured the iMac owner how lucky he was, but his friend just told me to shut up. We need some cool commercials or something!
Anyway, my iBook is still sweet in 9/will be in Jaguar. But I'm sure Apple could still sell Duos.
First of all let me say that I am writing this on a Fujitsu LOOX, but not the larger one with the DVD drive -- the smaller S series that they only sell in Japan. It is essentially the same size as the picture book but without the stupid camera and with a slightly worse keyboard. Oh, and it cost me about $700 new because I got it just as a new model was being released (it normally retails for more like $1200 -- which is still a great deal). Sony's machines are ridiculously overpriced.
I agree that the two Sony machines in this thread are not really practical. I think Sony does them more as displays of their technological prowess than as machines that they will sell a lot of. I was sort of hopeful when I first heard about the "U" but the fact that you are supposed to type with your thumbs and the fact that the battery is that stupid external thing really turned me off. I used it a bit in a store and found the screen to be too small for the resolution and the pointing device was hard to use.
Steve Jobs seems to require that portables have built-in optical drives, and the fact that the cube failed seems to make any similar portable product unlikely (a subnotenote, like the cube, would be small and limited in performance compared to larger, cheaper machines). Still, I really really want one. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" /> Not holding my breath though.
[ 05-12-2002: Message edited by: icruise ]</p>
The Honeywell Webpad, Viewsonic Viewpad, FIC AquaPad, Fujitsu tablet devices, and on and on and on are devices that are the future.
There should be no argument on how big or small the keyboard is because it shouldn't need one. If you want one, get the one you like. Just like you can do with a full size system. You can get "Tablet PC" with every option that laptops come with. Some even look like a Laptop, that is until you split it in half and leave the keyboard behind. In the PC world these things have existed for years.
APPLE needs to wake up. The iPad is almost 2 years behind the technology curve(Archos already has a multimedia audio/video player/recorder). The G# PB is certainly farther behind then that.
It weighs a pound less than my PB Wallstreet, that is over 4 years old, and runs faster but the PB Ti is just the same old standard laptop design.
Yes I agree, there is a market for sub-notebooks. Apple will probably figure this out in 4 or 5 years.
<strong>You are all so far behind what the future PC devices are. It is very sad. :-(</strong><hr></blockquote>
Do I dare say I smell flamebait?
It's one thing for people to have ideas and prototypes, regardless of whether it's PC companies or crazy rumormongers on AI. It's an entirely different thing to have a functional and useful shipping product. Many tablets and sub-subnotebooks so far have been different, maybe even innovative from a miniaturization perspective, but hardly useful.
Finally, let me explain again what should be perfectly obvious: a subnotebook and a tablet do not target the same market. There is hardly any overlap between the two categories. Sure you can add a keyboard to a tablet, or remove the keyboard from a subnotebook. But a tablet with a keyboard will not be functionally equivalent to a subnotebook. Nor will a subnotebook without a keyboard be functionally equivalent to a tablet.
[/end rant]
Escher
So what do you want "Your" sub-notebook to do.
There is probably a Tablet already able and doing it.
If you want functionality:
Tablets run Windows CE 3.0, CE Net, 2000, 98, Me, Linux and some will do all of them. If there was a softMacOS, they would run that too.
They come in sizes from the HP that is even smaller than a sub-notebook to a fujitsu that is as big as the PB Ti.
I haven't seen Apple have anything that runs MacOS that is A PDA style, a Tablet style, or even a sub-notebook style.
If you only shop in Apple stores you may never find what you are looking for.
Its a big world out there, expand your options.
What you want is sitting on a shelf somewhere just waiting for you to put it to good use.
I hope that you keep looking, you'll find it.
When they get better and cheaper (near parity with consumer notebooks) they still won't sell well because they'll be completely outclassed by good old pen and paper. It's cheap, it goes anywhere, and it feels natural Go ahead and actually try to write on a touch screen. OK for brief notes, a total headache for anything else.
Size also works against the tablet. The only advantage is the ability to use it while standing and input with one hand. Thus, the bigger it gets the more unwieldly it becomes. But, if it stays small, it can't replace your conventional laptop screens.
THE ONLY CHANCE for a successful tablet is a SMALL SUBNOTE that converts into a tablet. No wierd pivots either, just a screen that folds right over (360 degrees, like a book) and has a bit of a spine on one edge to hold comfortably.
EVERYTHING ELSE is delusion. Handwriting recognition isn't there and neither is speech. They're both OK, but not much beter than that. Take the claims of 95% accuracy for speech dictation -- sounds good but it's still a mistake every 20 words, that makes for SLOW progress. You'll note that after the initial fervor for natural speech dictation the market has died down. Why? cause basically it still sucks, and those who've tried it know. Anyone who can type reasonably well knows that a keyboard is the fastest data entry tool a human will likely ever use.
A tablet mode might appear on some smaller sub-note products, but that's it. Once people get it in their hands they realize how limited it actually is -- standing room only use -- in every other mode a keyboard wins, easily.
<strong>
You got that right, fireants22. I'd gladly pay more than iBook prices for a Picturebook-sized portable Mac.
As I'm starting to lead a sedentary lifestyle (i.e. have my own place and don't move every year), I'm realizing that I want a nice desktop and a small laptop for the road and for the yard. Right now, my iBook is my main machine. (Only my wife uses the iMac.) Come this summer/fall, I'm thinking about getting a PowerMac and synchronizing with the iBook on a daily basis. With such a setup, I will really be ready for the true subnotebook, akin to the Sony Picturebook C1.
Escher</strong><hr></blockquote>
You and I really are thinking alike. I used to make ten international trips a year so I lived out of my PowerBook (currently a Pismo 500). Recently my job doesn't entail so much traveling. Last August I got a QS 867 with a cinema display. It is fabulous. I would love to trade in the Pismo on an iBook Lite. That would be just enough to complement the G4 tower. Something to take on short trips. Something with an airport card and light enough to carry around town. An iBook would be OK if they would just shave off two pounds.
I don't like the fact that the Titbook's keyboard doesn't extend to the edges. I'venever actually typed on oe, so I don't know if the typing situation is okay.
I too have large hands. And large everything. That happens when you're 6'4" and weigh 310 pounds.
MrBillData, do you [/i]own[i] a tablet?
oh, by the way, remember that HoneyWell Web Tablet in Popular Science? It runs the MacOS!!!
No joke!
The picture in Pop Sci clearly had a OS 9 Internet Explorer running on it!
OK, maybe a joke. It did have this, but we all know how designers use Macs. Heck, didn't we see an ad for Windows XP running on an 8500? I remember seeing lots of funny stuff in Office Space, like trying to make a Mac look like Windows (accessing A
Is it just me or did it look like it was running MacOS!? I'll try and find a picture later.
Right on Matsu and Escher!
MrBillData, do you own a tablet?
oh, by the way, remember that HoneyWell Web Tablet in Popular Science? It runs the MacOS!!!
No joke!
The picture in Pop Sci clearly had a OS 9 Internet Explorer running on it!
OK, maybe a joke. It did have this, but we all know how designers use Macs. Heck, didn't we see an ad for Windows XP running on an 8500? I remember seeing lots of funny stuff in Office Space, like trying to make a Mac look like Windows (accessing A
Is it just me or did it look like it was running MacOS!? I'll try and find a picture later.
Edit: UBB