<strong>I don't get what the deal is in the Mac community these days. For some reason it's now hip to be down on Apple.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Its been this way on and off for about 17 years now, I'm afraid. There is always a part of the Mac community that is harder on Apple than the general press. Nothing Apple does is good enough -- even when they are doing remarkable stuff they get slammed for not doing the impossible as well. When Apple actually does fall behind in hardware terms, which happens every few years, then the naysayers start to sound a little more believable. Apple knows what it needs to do to survive, and you can bet that they know it, and the technical/business realities involved, better than a bunch of rumour mongers who spend all their time in the AI forums.
As I am sure we all know by now <a href="http://www.macrumors.com"; target="_blank">www.macrumors.com</a> has some info on the MWNY PowerMacs, I have a couple of questions though:
1) Has anyone seen any other supporting evidence of the DDR?
2) Does the DDR at 333MHz mean that it's equivilent to 666MHz(transmitting on the up and down part of the cycle)?
3) Does that mean that the Motherboard bus will be 333? Or could it be a factor there-of?
1) the motherboard leak of last week along with common sense confirms Apple is at least working on some DDR implementation.
2) I'm not sure about that, perhaps somebody else can answer.
3) AFAIK the FSB can be asynchronous with the DDR speed.
4) If those specs are real, then for anyone but the biggest whiners here, these machines will be worth the wait, supposing Apple does include FW2 and perhaps better video cards.
<strong>As I am sure we all know by now <a href="http://www.macrumors.com"; target="_blank">www.macrumors.com</a> has some info on the MWNY PowerMacs, I have a couple of questions though:
1) Has anyone seen any other supporting evidence of the DDR?
2) Does the DDR at 333MHz mean that it's equivilent to 666MHz(transmitting on the up and down part of the cycle)?
3) Does that mean that the Motherboard bus will be 333? Or could it be a factor there-of?
4) Is it worth the wait?</strong><hr></blockquote>
DDR 333 mhz for mobo are 166 mhz * 2. The bus is only 166 mhz.
2x333MHz DDR isn't even in graphics cards yet, that's going to take a long time until this comes into mobos. one or two years perhaps, perhaps never, coz DDR II will be there earlier.
[quote]That's what it's like, man. It's like we're at a game, rooting for Apple, right? And people like you (there's alot these days, sorry to single you out) are coming to every game sitting on Apple's side saying Apple's gonna lose and all the people around you are mindless fanboys for rooting for Apple. If you hated Apple so much, why do you keep coming to every ****ing game?
<hr></blockquote>
If you kept up on my posts you would see that I'm very impressed by Apple sometimes, particularly when it comes to OS X. In other cases, usually with hardware, I'm unimpressed.
You fanboys really ARE Applezombies, the sort that stumble through life blindly worshiping Apple. This isn't a "game" for you, it's a religion, and anyone who criticises Apple is blasphemous. What the hell is wrong with ripping on Apple when they fu[k up? As a mac user, I want Apple to deliver the BEST they can, and since Apple has a monopoly on Macs, I don't have the choice to buy something else. All I can do is bitch.
Are you the sort who wouldn't tell your best friend that they forgot to use deoderant? Would you let him/her spend the whole night at a party in a haze of BO, and keep it a secret from him that he stinks? Or would you be a friend and let him know about it?
We aren't blind, because we know at the moment Apple still makes the best computer systems (regardless of specs) for me. As soon as something better appears on the PC side, I'll switch. And I'll bet other people will too.
The pessimism is tiresome. The fact is you have no more of a ****ing clue than any of us. Of course, if you are conservative in your "predictions", and something disappointing comes out, you were right, and you can say, "Apple is doomed, see, I told you so." Then you get to call everyone who was optimistic Apple-zombies, and make some snide RDF reference. But if something good does come out, you can say, well, that suprised me, then start picking nits to build up the big "Apple is doomed" thing again.
I don't get what the deal is in the Mac community these days. For some reason it's now hip to be down on Apple. I'll admit that Apple is quite a ways behind, hardware-wise. But that doesn't make me down on them. For example, I like the SJ Sharks, right? They played the Avs today and won by a narrow margin. If they lost the game, I wouldn't have said, "the Sharks will keep disappointing us." I'll say, there's always next season.
That's what it's like, man. It's like we're at a game, rooting for Apple, right? And people like you (there's alot these days, sorry to single you out) are coming to every game sitting on Apple's side saying Apple's gonna lose and all the people around you are mindless fanboys for rooting for Apple. If you hated Apple so much, why do you keep coming to every ****ing game?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I know what you mean dude. I feel like people are downing Apple for no reason someitmes. Apple is still remaining competitive enough to get PC users to switch and thats important. If Apple can get through a few more quarters with the G4 in the powermac then the G5 will get them over the hump.
I think that a steady pace for OS X upgrades and new chip speeds will equal COMPETITIVE performance. It would be nice to have both though wouldnt it? Just think, a G5 running Jaguar and beyond..mmmmm.
If you kept up on my posts you would see that I'm very impressed by Apple sometimes, particularly when it comes to OS X. In other cases, usually with hardware, I'm unimpressed.
You fanboys really ARE Applezombies, the sort that stumble through life blindly worshiping Apple. This isn't a "game" for you, it's a religion, and anyone who criticises Apple is blasphemous. What the hell is wrong with ripping on Apple when they fu[k up? As a mac user, I want Apple to deliver the BEST they can, and since Apple has a monopoly on Macs, I don't have the choice to buy something else. All I can do is bitch.
Are you the sort who wouldn't tell your best friend that they forgot to use deoderant? Would you let him/her spend the whole night at a party in a haze of BO, and keep it a secret from him that he stinks? Or would you be a friend and let him know about it?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I want to defend the Dawg and get folks off his case for a while. Let me use his own words taken from an AI post just eight days ago:
[quote] I believe Apple is acting so confidently in this high-stakes, high-performance market because they've got the hardware to run with the big boys. It's not here quite yet, but come MWNY it will be. At the very latest, the new hardware may be announced at MWSF, but I'll be surprised if it comes so late in the game.
If the G4 were all Apple had to rely on, and all they had to look forward to were incremental bumps in G4 design like the one's we've been witnessing lately, then there is NO WAY Apple could hope to become competitive in any high performance markets. It is the G5 that Apple is counting on.
It all fits. The recent migration of consumer lines to the G4, the stagnation of the Powermac line with the same pitiful motherboard for so long, the recent low-key revision of the Powermacs...Apple is on the verge of introducing a radically new Powermac line, one that will change the face of computing as we know it. Get ready to see the iMac bumped to a GHz G4 at MWNY, and for the iBook to migrate to the G4. The current processor lineup represents Apple's future low end.
I suspect the new Powermacs will have a new motherboard that lays to rests any worries about bandwidth, and GHz will be impressive to say the least. The high end will be around 1.4 or 1.6 GHz, dual CPU. It will rock. <hr></blockquote>
These do not seem to be the words of a pessimist or a malcontent.
I did notice that the Dawg later revised his MWNY predictions down to a more modest upgrade of the Power line, and one forum member asked me not to beatify the Dawg too soon as he has been a little schizophrenic of late--but I wouldn't call it schizophrenia at all. Junkyard's mood swings are occasioned by a the ironclad secrecy of a company that we all appreciate--Apple. They keep the lid on so tight that we can merely guess about every new step. Some of us are in the hopeful Kormac mode; others are not. But the WAITING can result in a kind of bi-polar frenzy. I know. I've been there. One day I think we'll see huge growth on the hardware end; the next day, baby carrots. I'm taking it all a little too seriously ... but don't blame the Dawg.
I am not an Apple worshipper. I'm still running a 333 iMac since it was all I could afford at the time. The reason I'm using this aging machine is that Apple hasn't come out with anything that I see as a decent deal to replace it with. Their state of hardware in the pro lines (where I want to move to, probably a portable) blows ass. The PBG4 would be great if the 800 was $2000. So I'm not one to just buy what Apple shits out.
And if you said that, I wouldn't take issue with it a bit. Nothing wrong with stating the truth. But the pessimism ("it will be a totally uninspiring upgrade that deepens the waters Apple treads in") is a point that I can argue. You state it matter-of-factly, like it's something you know. And I would just like to say that if I said "G5 at 2.0 GHz", it wouldn't be any less grounded in fact than your statement. You don't have any inside info. So, when you make statements like that, it seems to me that that is what you're hoping for.
<strong>As I am sure we all know by now <a href="http://www.macrumors.com"; target="_blank">www.macrumors.com</a> has some info on the MWNY PowerMacs.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Its not new information. They just reprinted the Register article from February and there are some errors in it. For example, the 7470 and 7460 are G4 processors but the 7500 is a G5 processor. I don't know why they would think the 7500 was another G4. Strange. Very strange. Also, just because the G4 has a lot of life left in it doesn't mean it will be used on the PowerMacs and PowerBooks for the rest of it. When they move the Pro lines over to the G5 the G4 will continue to be used on the Consumer lines. So of course it has a lot of life left in it. It has to continue to scale along side the G5 after the move is made. So at MWNY this year we will see some very significant improvements to the G4 while next year, probably at MWNY again, we will see the G5 introduced.
[quote] Are you the sort who wouldn't tell your best friend that they forgot to use deoderant? <hr></blockquote>
Junkyard, that's a bad analogy. You're complaining about Macs, but you don't have to buy them. A more appropriate deodorant analogy might be something like - "Your friend bitches constantly about his deodorant and how it doesn't make him quite daisy-fresh enough. Are you the type who wouldn't tell your friend that there are other brands of deodorant for sale on the market? I hear the Wintel deodorant is quite popular these days."
Point being, constantly bitching about Macs makes no sense, especially here on this board. This board is not a private line to Steve Jobs' ear. If Macs displease you to such a degree, then buy a Wintel and live happily ever after. There is no earthly reason it needs to be more complicated than that.
Has anyone noticed that when you download a PDF of Apple's education prices, the Applecare protection plan sells for 'G series' PowerMacs, rather than 'G4' PowerMac?
Point being, constantly bitching about Macs makes no sense, especially here on this board. This board is not a private line to Steve Jobs' ear. If Macs displease you to such a degree, then buy a Wintel and live happily ever after. There is no earthly reason it needs to be more complicated than that.
You're inaccurate and reactionary - Junkyard Dawg isn't "constantly bitching" as you put it. In this thread alone he's been quoted with some very positive - strike that - blatantly optimistic statements - "Apple is on the verge of introducing a radically new Powermac line, one that will change the face of computing as we know it". How much more gushing based on nothing but a belief in Apple do you want? The fact he also tells people Apple has often let people down in the performance department is what most of us would call the intrusion of a realistic attitude. When considering solely the PowerMac hardware, Apple has indeed been behind the times for about half a decade now. It's the truth, the only way to dispute it is to not answer the question. An example is Apple comparing a single 2GHz Pentium machine versus the dual 1 GHz PowerMac, when you could afford a dual 2 GHz Pentium machine for less money than the dual GHz PowerMac. Another way is to say that calculation performance isn't everything. I believe everyone here agrees with that otherwise most of us would stop using Macs. Still, it doesn't mean Apple has been competitive for calculation performance in their pro-oriented desktops. [Their laptops have often been on par although they're both currently behind.]
For someone to be so offended as to tell JD or anyone else to leave for suggesting that Apple has fallen behind performance-wise and may not catch up - well, it's a disturbing amount of protectionism to see. Even moreso when the same people you're trying to expel have made other extremely optimistic statements about Apple's future. Apple is not God and we shouldn't be banished from a bulletin board for questioning them. Personally, I'm excited and hope that some of the optimists are right because if the servers have a render farm oriented configuration I may be buying my first G4 on Tuesday. If the servers don't fit my needs but MWNY introduces G4s with a faster bus and memory I'll buy the top of the line PowerMac at that time. Still, I wouldn't be extremely surprised if the models didn't meet the performance levels predicted and I don't think I should be banished for expressing that opinion.
I wouldn't say that Apple has been behind for a half decade.
They've been behind for almost 3 years. Up to the intro of G4 they were ahead (you could show that a 500Mhz G4 was quite a bit faster than a 700Mhz P3. But Intel/AMD started to ratchet up the Mhz a lot faster than Mot/IBM at that point and they fell behind.
The Laptops only recently fell behind. You have to remember that untill very recently an x86 laptop chip was a fairly piss-poor balance of power-consumption and computing power. They sucked and Apple's Pismos were by far the best laptops on the market.
...and still are , in my not-so-humble opinion... (well, maybe not anymore with the 800 Tibook)
Let face it, Apple know exactly what situation they are in performance-wise (unless those RDF generators are turned WAY up <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" /> )
Comments
<strong>I don't get what the deal is in the Mac community these days. For some reason it's now hip to be down on Apple.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Its been this way on and off for about 17 years now, I'm afraid. There is always a part of the Mac community that is harder on Apple than the general press. Nothing Apple does is good enough -- even when they are doing remarkable stuff they get slammed for not doing the impossible as well. When Apple actually does fall behind in hardware terms, which happens every few years, then the naysayers start to sound a little more believable. Apple knows what it needs to do to survive, and you can bet that they know it, and the technical/business realities involved, better than a bunch of rumour mongers who spend all their time in the AI forums.
<strong>
Playboy? has articles?
umm, playboy is mostly articles.
<strong>
umm, playboy is mostly articles.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yeah....missing articles of clothing!
1) Has anyone seen any other supporting evidence of the DDR?
2) Does the DDR at 333MHz mean that it's equivilent to 666MHz(transmitting on the up and down part of the cycle)?
3) Does that mean that the Motherboard bus will be 333? Or could it be a factor there-of?
4) Is it worth the wait?
2) I'm not sure about that, perhaps somebody else can answer.
3) AFAIK the FSB can be asynchronous with the DDR speed.
4) If those specs are real, then for anyone but the biggest whiners here, these machines will be worth the wait, supposing Apple does include FW2 and perhaps better video cards.
<strong>As I am sure we all know by now <a href="http://www.macrumors.com"; target="_blank">www.macrumors.com</a> has some info on the MWNY PowerMacs, I have a couple of questions though:
1) Has anyone seen any other supporting evidence of the DDR?
2) Does the DDR at 333MHz mean that it's equivilent to 666MHz(transmitting on the up and down part of the cycle)?
3) Does that mean that the Motherboard bus will be 333? Or could it be a factor there-of?
4) Is it worth the wait?</strong><hr></blockquote>
DDR 333 mhz for mobo are 166 mhz * 2. The bus is only 166 mhz.
G-News
<hr></blockquote>
If you kept up on my posts you would see that I'm very impressed by Apple sometimes, particularly when it comes to OS X. In other cases, usually with hardware, I'm unimpressed.
You fanboys really ARE Applezombies, the sort that stumble through life blindly worshiping Apple. This isn't a "game" for you, it's a religion, and anyone who criticises Apple is blasphemous. What the hell is wrong with ripping on Apple when they fu[k up? As a mac user, I want Apple to deliver the BEST they can, and since Apple has a monopoly on Macs, I don't have the choice to buy something else. All I can do is bitch.
Are you the sort who wouldn't tell your best friend that they forgot to use deoderant? Would you let him/her spend the whole night at a party in a haze of BO, and keep it a secret from him that he stinks? Or would you be a friend and let him know about it?
<strong>
*sigh*
The pessimism is tiresome. The fact is you have no more of a ****ing clue than any of us. Of course, if you are conservative in your "predictions", and something disappointing comes out, you were right, and you can say, "Apple is doomed, see, I told you so." Then you get to call everyone who was optimistic Apple-zombies, and make some snide RDF reference. But if something good does come out, you can say, well, that suprised me, then start picking nits to build up the big "Apple is doomed" thing again.
I don't get what the deal is in the Mac community these days. For some reason it's now hip to be down on Apple. I'll admit that Apple is quite a ways behind, hardware-wise. But that doesn't make me down on them. For example, I like the SJ Sharks, right? They played the Avs today and won by a narrow margin. If they lost the game, I wouldn't have said, "the Sharks will keep disappointing us." I'll say, there's always next season.
That's what it's like, man. It's like we're at a game, rooting for Apple, right? And people like you (there's alot these days, sorry to single you out) are coming to every game sitting on Apple's side saying Apple's gonna lose and all the people around you are mindless fanboys for rooting for Apple. If you hated Apple so much, why do you keep coming to every ****ing game?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I know what you mean dude. I feel like people are downing Apple for no reason someitmes. Apple is still remaining competitive enough to get PC users to switch and thats important. If Apple can get through a few more quarters with the G4 in the powermac then the G5 will get them over the hump.
I think that a steady pace for OS X upgrades and new chip speeds will equal COMPETITIVE performance. It would be nice to have both though wouldnt it? Just think, a G5 running Jaguar and beyond..mmmmm.
<strong>
If you kept up on my posts you would see that I'm very impressed by Apple sometimes, particularly when it comes to OS X. In other cases, usually with hardware, I'm unimpressed.
You fanboys really ARE Applezombies, the sort that stumble through life blindly worshiping Apple. This isn't a "game" for you, it's a religion, and anyone who criticises Apple is blasphemous. What the hell is wrong with ripping on Apple when they fu[k up? As a mac user, I want Apple to deliver the BEST they can, and since Apple has a monopoly on Macs, I don't have the choice to buy something else. All I can do is bitch.
Are you the sort who wouldn't tell your best friend that they forgot to use deoderant? Would you let him/her spend the whole night at a party in a haze of BO, and keep it a secret from him that he stinks? Or would you be a friend and let him know about it?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Big fan of the Dawg - he speaks sense.
[quote] I believe Apple is acting so confidently in this high-stakes, high-performance market because they've got the hardware to run with the big boys. It's not here quite yet, but come MWNY it will be. At the very latest, the new hardware may be announced at MWSF, but I'll be surprised if it comes so late in the game.
If the G4 were all Apple had to rely on, and all they had to look forward to were incremental bumps in G4 design like the one's we've been witnessing lately, then there is NO WAY Apple could hope to become competitive in any high performance markets. It is the G5 that Apple is counting on.
It all fits. The recent migration of consumer lines to the G4, the stagnation of the Powermac line with the same pitiful motherboard for so long, the recent low-key revision of the Powermacs...Apple is on the verge of introducing a radically new Powermac line, one that will change the face of computing as we know it. Get ready to see the iMac bumped to a GHz G4 at MWNY, and for the iBook to migrate to the G4. The current processor lineup represents Apple's future low end.
I suspect the new Powermacs will have a new motherboard that lays to rests any worries about bandwidth, and GHz will be impressive to say the least. The high end will be around 1.4 or 1.6 GHz, dual CPU. It will rock. <hr></blockquote>
These do not seem to be the words of a pessimist or a malcontent.
I did notice that the Dawg later revised his MWNY predictions down to a more modest upgrade of the Power line, and one forum member asked me not to beatify the Dawg too soon as he has been a little schizophrenic of late--but I wouldn't call it schizophrenia at all. Junkyard's mood swings are occasioned by a the ironclad secrecy of a company that we all appreciate--Apple. They keep the lid on so tight that we can merely guess about every new step. Some of us are in the hopeful Kormac mode; others are not. But the WAITING can result in a kind of bi-polar frenzy. I know. I've been there. One day I think we'll see huge growth on the hardware end; the next day, baby carrots. I'm taking it all a little too seriously ... but don't blame the Dawg.
----------------------
Waiting to Bark in Nashvegas
I am not an Apple worshipper. I'm still running a 333 iMac since it was all I could afford at the time. The reason I'm using this aging machine is that Apple hasn't come out with anything that I see as a decent deal to replace it with. Their state of hardware in the pro lines (where I want to move to, probably a portable) blows ass. The PBG4 would be great if the 800 was $2000. So I'm not one to just buy what Apple shits out.
And if you said that, I wouldn't take issue with it a bit. Nothing wrong with stating the truth. But the pessimism ("it will be a totally uninspiring upgrade that deepens the waters Apple treads in") is a point that I can argue. You state it matter-of-factly, like it's something you know. And I would just like to say that if I said "G5 at 2.0 GHz", it wouldn't be any less grounded in fact than your statement. You don't have any inside info. So, when you make statements like that, it seems to me that that is what you're hoping for.
Now do you get my point?
<strong>As I am sure we all know by now <a href="http://www.macrumors.com"; target="_blank">www.macrumors.com</a> has some info on the MWNY PowerMacs.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Its not new information. They just reprinted the Register article from February and there are some errors in it. For example, the 7470 and 7460 are G4 processors but the 7500 is a G5 processor. I don't know why they would think the 7500 was another G4. Strange. Very strange. Also, just because the G4 has a lot of life left in it doesn't mean it will be used on the PowerMacs and PowerBooks for the rest of it. When they move the Pro lines over to the G5 the G4 will continue to be used on the Consumer lines. So of course it has a lot of life left in it. It has to continue to scale along side the G5 after the move is made. So at MWNY this year we will see some very significant improvements to the G4 while next year, probably at MWNY again, we will see the G5 introduced.
Junkyard, that's a bad analogy. You're complaining about Macs, but you don't have to buy them. A more appropriate deodorant analogy might be something like - "Your friend bitches constantly about his deodorant and how it doesn't make him quite daisy-fresh enough. Are you the type who wouldn't tell your friend that there are other brands of deodorant for sale on the market? I hear the Wintel deodorant is quite popular these days."
Point being, constantly bitching about Macs makes no sense, especially here on this board. This board is not a private line to Steve Jobs' ear. If Macs displease you to such a degree, then buy a Wintel and live happily ever after. There is no earthly reason it needs to be more complicated than that.
[ 05-13-2002: Message edited by: Xaqtly ]</p>
[ 05-13-2002: Message edited by: DaveLee ]</p>
Has anyone noticed that when you download a PDF of Apple's education prices, the Applecare protection plan sells for 'G series' PowerMacs, rather than 'G4' PowerMac?
Is this new?
They cannot be talking about G3 still can they?
More fuel?
<strong>
Point being, constantly bitching about Macs makes no sense, especially here on this board. This board is not a private line to Steve Jobs' ear. If Macs displease you to such a degree, then buy a Wintel and live happily ever after. There is no earthly reason it needs to be more complicated than that.
[ 05-13-2002: Message edited by: Xaqtly ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
You're inaccurate and reactionary - Junkyard Dawg isn't "constantly bitching" as you put it. In this thread alone he's been quoted with some very positive - strike that - blatantly optimistic statements - "Apple is on the verge of introducing a radically new Powermac line, one that will change the face of computing as we know it". How much more gushing based on nothing but a belief in Apple do you want? The fact he also tells people Apple has often let people down in the performance department is what most of us would call the intrusion of a realistic attitude. When considering solely the PowerMac hardware, Apple has indeed been behind the times for about half a decade now. It's the truth, the only way to dispute it is to not answer the question. An example is Apple comparing a single 2GHz Pentium machine versus the dual 1 GHz PowerMac, when you could afford a dual 2 GHz Pentium machine for less money than the dual GHz PowerMac. Another way is to say that calculation performance isn't everything. I believe everyone here agrees with that otherwise most of us would stop using Macs. Still, it doesn't mean Apple has been competitive for calculation performance in their pro-oriented desktops. [Their laptops have often been on par although they're both currently behind.]
For someone to be so offended as to tell JD or anyone else to leave for suggesting that Apple has fallen behind performance-wise and may not catch up - well, it's a disturbing amount of protectionism to see. Even moreso when the same people you're trying to expel have made other extremely optimistic statements about Apple's future. Apple is not God and we shouldn't be banished from a bulletin board for questioning them. Personally, I'm excited and hope that some of the optimists are right because if the servers have a render farm oriented configuration I may be buying my first G4 on Tuesday. If the servers don't fit my needs but MWNY introduces G4s with a faster bus and memory I'll buy the top of the line PowerMac at that time. Still, I wouldn't be extremely surprised if the models didn't meet the performance levels predicted and I don't think I should be banished for expressing that opinion.
[ 05-13-2002: Message edited by: percolate ]</p>
They've been behind for almost 3 years. Up to the intro of G4 they were ahead (you could show that a 500Mhz G4 was quite a bit faster than a 700Mhz P3. But Intel/AMD started to ratchet up the Mhz a lot faster than Mot/IBM at that point and they fell behind.
The Laptops only recently fell behind. You have to remember that untill very recently an x86 laptop chip was a fairly piss-poor balance of power-consumption and computing power. They sucked and Apple's Pismos were by far the best laptops on the market.
Let face it, Apple know exactly what situation they are in performance-wise (unless those RDF generators are turned WAY up <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" /> )