Absolutely true. But I still feel that Election Day should be a federal holiday. Be able to take the day, go to your local voting station, and educate yourself on the issues with candidate information put up there. Have regulations on what information can be put there by each candidate (your content may not speak of other candidates in any capacity, any issue addressed by one candidate must be addressed by all, etc.).
Achieving very little in an area that you might not know a lot about while losing a working day when you're "less well-off" could be a big deal.
The more well-off often have more work flexibility to take a few hours or a day to go vote without any significant loss, and they're likely more educated and motivated to.
Did you know that as a juror you can ignore a judges instructions and you can ignore the law if the law is unjust?
That's good to know but also know that doing so decreases the chances of a jury's decision standing up to appeal. "Unjust" is in the eyes of the beholder. If a jury wishes to have their decision stick, then they need to stick to the law and follow instructions as much as possible (still without guarantee, of course).
Americans sure as hell do want jobs making televisions. Our business leaders merely realized they could skim a lot more profit off the top, into their own bank accounts, if they made the TVs with slave-labor wages instead of living-wage wages. The entire developed world - Japan, US, Canada, EU - all need to change our trade laws to prevent products made with slave-labor wages from being sold in our markets. We can make everything we need in the developed world. It's simple greed that has allowed our economies to sputter to a halt - because nobody except a small, elite few has any disposable income anymore.
So you're dead wrong - people are very much interested in having jobs making TVs. What they're not interested in is living in a tar paper shack while doing so.
I don't know - that may be true to some degree in a number of industries, but the U.S. was making pretty crappy televisions, and not improving them (Magnavox? Zenith?). I don't know if the Asian companies like Sony stole American IP, but they sure did improve the quality and functionality of televisions. Of course, after that came all the cheap Asian TVs that are still built today.
I don't know - that may be true to some degree in a number of industries, but the U.S. was making pretty crappy televisions, and not improving them (Magnavox? Zenith?). I don't know if the Asian companies like Sony stole American IP, but they sure did improve the quality and functionality of televisions
???
If the U.S. companies were making crappy televisions and not improving them, what IP would be stolen from these companies that would improve televisions in Asia?
The TV comment could have been worded differently but I see no problem bringing nationalism into play. Apple is a US company and they continue to be treated unfairly by our judicial system. Yes, Samsung was finally found guilty by an American jury but the DOJ continues to find Apple guilty of everything they can dig up, leaving Samsung alone. Samsung continues to "work" the US legal system to their benefit and very few judges are willing to go against them. This smacks of reverse nationalism where the US judicial system doesn't want to get a foreign company/country upset, going against their own nations company.
It's is a court proceeding, not a policy debate. The DOJ actions have absolutely nothing to do with the Apple/Samsung trial. In the U.S. court system (unlike China, Korea and other places), EVERY company deserves fair treatment, whether it's American or foreign. For a lawyer to appeal to nationalism is prejudicial, and not allowed. It should be the same verdict as if it were Apple v. Google instead of Apple v. Samsung. Of course, judges can make mistakes, issue bad rulings, or show bias, and that's what appeals courts are for (hopefully that will play out in the ebook case).
As far as what the Apple lawyer said, it is over the line, but not too extreme. He should have worded it differently so it didn't focus on the Amreican vs. foreign manufacturers issue.
Then, don't whine when public policy doesn't go your way.
They are not excuses, they are explanations. If, for instance, you don't have a picture ID in states that now require them, you can't vote. That is not an excuse, it's a fact. And for some people it is very difficult (either because they lack the proper paperwork or because it's expensive for them) to get those IDs.
The fact that voting takes place on what for most people is a workday is not entirely fair or sane.
Etc.
And I know that last statement wasn't directed at me, but I never miss an election. OK, once I did, but I had a fever of like 102 and was throwing up all day. It was something like 13 degrees out. I decided it might be best to stay in that day. But that's the ONLY election of any kind I've missed in the 26 years since turned 18. Also, I don't "whine" about policy. I do my share of complaining -- some would say I do more than my share, and they are probably right. But an educated, well thought out complaint is not "whining."
They are not excuses, they are explanations. If, for instance, you don't have a picture ID in states that now require them, you can't vote. That is not an excuse, it's a fact. And for some people it is very difficult (either because they lack the proper paperwork or because it's expensive for them) to get those IDs.
The fact that voting takes place on what for most people is a workday is not entirely fair or sane.
Etc.
You really should bother to look at some data, and over time, before spouting off. The association between low voter turnout and income levels in the US was pretty much the same before picture IDs, workdays, paperwork, and so on.
Btw, this association is not the case in all countries. In countries like India, the reverse is true: the poor turn out in higher numbers than the well-off.
I think laziness and apathy in the US are perhaps more important factors.
But an educated, well thought out complaint is not "whining."
Perhaps you should read the whole thread before jumping in mid-way. I was specifically responding to JAS99's comment above that said: "Nobody has any disposable income anymore. Everyone is living on subsistence-level wages with no hope of ever having more. It's disgusting. Corporations have completely bought off the developed world's politicians. We need to get money out of politics so my vote counts as much as a billionaire's."
Manufacturing went away from "the west" because people don't want to work in factories! In other countries the people have little choice. The west increases that pressure all the time. It's certainly a sad state of affairs, but not for Americans. TVs are no longer made in America? That's the whole point! Americans don't want to make TVs!
It's not racist to point out that Korean firms have a bad habit of stealing IP. It's a cultural fact. They're proud of their copying. They do it shamelessly.
Hyundai, Kia, Daiwoo, Samsung, LG, Hankook - Look at their products. Every one a copy of one or more successful products from someone else's hard work and talent.
Asian copycat culture is a typical Stockholm Syndrome. We're so used to it we just assume it's normal and acceptable. It isn't.
Perhaps I should have explained my point further. It's not that Americans can't make TVs (obviously), or that they just don't. They won't. Why? It's economically unviable in that market. TVs are too cheap to be able to pay the workers a fair "western" living wage to assemble them. Americans won't accept that. People in developing countries have to; they have little choice.
People don't want to work in factories. Yep that must be it. It has nothing to do with cheap slave like labor overseas or thing like NAFTA which allows companies to import said goods into the US tax free.
According to Tim Cook it has nothing to do with cheap slave like labor, but that the skilled labor is over in China and not here in the US. Apparently Americans don't have the skills to perform jobs which are traditionally considered unskilled labor.
You really should bother to look at some data, and over time, before spouting off. The association between low voter turnout and income levels in the US was pretty much the same before picture IDs, workdays, paperwork, and so on.
Btw, this association is not the case in all countries. In countries like India, the reverse is true: the poor turn out in higher numbers than the well-off.
I think laziness and apathy in the US are perhaps more important factors.
Oh, laziness and apathy are a HUGE part. And I think part of what causes the apathy is the lack of education and the rampant ignorance in this country. In countries like Finland and S. Korea, where the education level is very high, the turnout is higher than it is in the US.
Also, I believe that our present system of intense gerrymandering does not help. In the vast majority of districts across the country the result is known long before the election ever happens. Even without gerrymandering that can be the case. My district, for example, in SE Michigan hasn't elected a Republican in my entire lifetime I don't think. They could resurrect Lincoln, and he lose here too.
Or look at Henry Waxman's district, essentially Beverly Hills. He's retiring, so it's an open seat this year. The odds against a Republican winning there are better than the odds against me dating Maria Sharapova. That should tell you something.
So, I think that that contributes in part to the apathy as well: People, whether it's in say my district, or somewhere in the deep South like Mississippi, already know the result.
Finally, when it comes to the Presidential vote, the Electoral system doesn't help. Your vote doesn't count as 1 vote under the Electoral system. Again, let's take my state of Michigan. We have 9.8M people approximately. Now, let's say that Joe Smith (D) is running against Rebecca Jones (R). One of them is going to take all 16 electoral votes, the other will get none. So, if (this would never happen, but ...) 8M people vote and Smith gets 4,000,001 votes and Jones gets 3,999,999 votes, then Smith gets 16 electoral votes and Jones gets exactly 0.
I've spoken to people over the years who feel disenfranchised by the system we have. They feel that, "Hey, I voted for Jones, she lost by 2 votes out of 8M, and she gets NOTHING! Why did I even bother?" Now, obviously these people understand the system, which isn't necessarily the case. But I can understand why they are somewhat bitter and feel as though, in the end, "It doesn't matter."
This is even more important of a factor in states like Mississippi where a Democrat would never carry the state, or California where a Republican would never carry the state. California has 53 reps, 38 of which are Democrats. Conversely, Mississippi has 4 representatives, 3 of which are Republicans.
So, not only is your vote for President probably not going to be relevant, but your vote for your representative (or Senator for that matter) probably won't be either.
So, yes, I believe there are a ton of factors at work. And I think the fact that the states have become so solidly either red or blue isn't helping.
According to Tim Cook it has nothing to do with cheap slave like labor, but that the skilled labor is over in China and not here in the US. Apparently Americans don't have the skills to perform jobs which are traditionally considered unskilled labor.
I don't know what tradition you speak of, but iPhones, for example, are much more complex to assemble than apparently you presume. Many workers in Chinese factories are Engineering graduates. The west literally does not have enough engineers to fulfill that demand.
Even if we did, would they work for that little money? Doubtful. So you are correct, and so is Mr Cook.
Comments
There are lots of reasons. But here are a few:
-- Increasing anti-voter laws.
-- The fact that, against all sense, we have elections during the week. Why we don't have elections from Friday through Sunday, I have no idea.
-- Most Americans don't feel as if they have any real influence.
Those are excuses.
Absolutely true. But I still feel that Election Day should be a federal holiday. Be able to take the day, go to your local voting station, and educate yourself on the issues with candidate information put up there. Have regulations on what information can be put there by each candidate (your content may not speak of other candidates in any capacity, any issue addressed by one candidate must be addressed by all, etc.).
Yes, it is troubling that there are no American television manufacturers.
While I agree, that's not something that changed overnight. The fact is, about 67% 56% of whites vote, 50% of blacks, 20% of hispanics.
Achieving very little in an area that you might not know a lot about while losing a working day when you're "less well-off" could be a big deal.
The more well-off often have more work flexibility to take a few hours or a day to go vote without any significant loss, and they're likely more educated and motivated to.
Did you know that as a juror you can ignore a judges instructions and you can ignore the law if the law is unjust?
That's good to know but also know that doing so decreases the chances of a jury's decision standing up to appeal. "Unjust" is in the eyes of the beholder. If a jury wishes to have their decision stick, then they need to stick to the law and follow instructions as much as possible (still without guarantee, of course).
timmydax:
Americans sure as hell do want jobs making televisions. Our business leaders merely realized they could skim a lot more profit off the top, into their own bank accounts, if they made the TVs with slave-labor wages instead of living-wage wages. The entire developed world - Japan, US, Canada, EU - all need to change our trade laws to prevent products made with slave-labor wages from being sold in our markets. We can make everything we need in the developed world. It's simple greed that has allowed our economies to sputter to a halt - because nobody except a small, elite few has any disposable income anymore.
So you're dead wrong - people are very much interested in having jobs making TVs. What they're not interested in is living in a tar paper shack while doing so.
I don't know - that may be true to some degree in a number of industries, but the U.S. was making pretty crappy televisions, and not improving them (Magnavox? Zenith?). I don't know if the Asian companies like Sony stole American IP, but they sure did improve the quality and functionality of televisions. Of course, after that came all the cheap Asian TVs that are still built today.
Different priorities, not an excuse.
Then, don't whine when public policy doesn't go your way.
I don't know - that may be true to some degree in a number of industries, but the U.S. was making pretty crappy televisions, and not improving them (Magnavox? Zenith?). I don't know if the Asian companies like Sony stole American IP, but they sure did improve the quality and functionality of televisions
???
If the U.S. companies were making crappy televisions and not improving them, what IP would be stolen from these companies that would improve televisions in Asia?
The TV comment could have been worded differently but I see no problem bringing nationalism into play. Apple is a US company and they continue to be treated unfairly by our judicial system. Yes, Samsung was finally found guilty by an American jury but the DOJ continues to find Apple guilty of everything they can dig up, leaving Samsung alone. Samsung continues to "work" the US legal system to their benefit and very few judges are willing to go against them. This smacks of reverse nationalism where the US judicial system doesn't want to get a foreign company/country upset, going against their own nations company.
It's is a court proceeding, not a policy debate. The DOJ actions have absolutely nothing to do with the Apple/Samsung trial. In the U.S. court system (unlike China, Korea and other places), EVERY company deserves fair treatment, whether it's American or foreign. For a lawyer to appeal to nationalism is prejudicial, and not allowed. It should be the same verdict as if it were Apple v. Google instead of Apple v. Samsung. Of course, judges can make mistakes, issue bad rulings, or show bias, and that's what appeals courts are for (hopefully that will play out in the ebook case).
As far as what the Apple lawyer said, it is over the line, but not too extreme. He should have worded it differently so it didn't focus on the Amreican vs. foreign manufacturers issue.
Those are excuses.
Then, don't whine when public policy doesn't go your way.
They are not excuses, they are explanations. If, for instance, you don't have a picture ID in states that now require them, you can't vote. That is not an excuse, it's a fact. And for some people it is very difficult (either because they lack the proper paperwork or because it's expensive for them) to get those IDs.
The fact that voting takes place on what for most people is a workday is not entirely fair or sane.
Etc.
And I know that last statement wasn't directed at me, but I never miss an election. OK, once I did, but I had a fever of like 102 and was throwing up all day. It was something like 13 degrees out. I decided it might be best to stay in that day. But that's the ONLY election of any kind I've missed in the 26 years since turned 18. Also, I don't "whine" about policy. I do my share of complaining -- some would say I do more than my share, and they are probably right. But an educated, well thought out complaint is not "whining."
They are not excuses, they are explanations. If, for instance, you don't have a picture ID in states that now require them, you can't vote. That is not an excuse, it's a fact. And for some people it is very difficult (either because they lack the proper paperwork or because it's expensive for them) to get those IDs.
The fact that voting takes place on what for most people is a workday is not entirely fair or sane.
Etc.
You really should bother to look at some data, and over time, before spouting off. The association between low voter turnout and income levels in the US was pretty much the same before picture IDs, workdays, paperwork, and so on.
Btw, this association is not the case in all countries. In countries like India, the reverse is true: the poor turn out in higher numbers than the well-off.
I think laziness and apathy in the US are perhaps more important factors.
Perhaps you should read the whole thread before jumping in mid-way. I was specifically responding to JAS99's comment above that said: "Nobody has any disposable income anymore. Everyone is living on subsistence-level wages with no hope of ever having more. It's disgusting. Corporations have completely bought off the developed world's politicians. We need to get money out of politics so my vote counts as much as a billionaire's."
Hooray for Xenophobia and Racism!
Good job Apple :-/
Manufacturing went away from "the west" because people don't want to work in factories! In other countries the people have little choice. The west increases that pressure all the time. It's certainly a sad state of affairs, but not for Americans. TVs are no longer made in America? That's the whole point! Americans don't want to make TVs!
This is just ignorant.
Hyundai, Kia, Daiwoo, Samsung, LG, Hankook - Look at their products. Every one a copy of one or more successful products from someone else's hard work and talent.
Asian copycat culture is a typical Stockholm Syndrome. We're so used to it we just assume it's normal and acceptable. It isn't.
Explanation?
Perhaps I should have explained my point further. It's not that Americans can't make TVs (obviously), or that they just don't. They won't. Why? It's economically unviable in that market. TVs are too cheap to be able to pay the workers a fair "western" living wage to assemble them. Americans won't accept that. People in developing countries have to; they have little choice.
People don't want to work in factories. Yep that must be it. It has nothing to do with cheap slave like labor overseas or thing like NAFTA which allows companies to import said goods into the US tax free.
According to Tim Cook it has nothing to do with cheap slave like labor, but that the skilled labor is over in China and not here in the US. Apparently Americans don't have the skills to perform jobs which are traditionally considered unskilled labor.
Source: http://rockcenter.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12/06/15708290-apple-ceo-tim-cook-announces-plans-to-manufacture-mac-computers-in-usa?lite
I would have to agree with your view over Tim Cook's.
You really should bother to look at some data, and over time, before spouting off. The association between low voter turnout and income levels in the US was pretty much the same before picture IDs, workdays, paperwork, and so on.
Btw, this association is not the case in all countries. In countries like India, the reverse is true: the poor turn out in higher numbers than the well-off.
I think laziness and apathy in the US are perhaps more important factors.
Oh, laziness and apathy are a HUGE part. And I think part of what causes the apathy is the lack of education and the rampant ignorance in this country. In countries like Finland and S. Korea, where the education level is very high, the turnout is higher than it is in the US.
Also, I believe that our present system of intense gerrymandering does not help. In the vast majority of districts across the country the result is known long before the election ever happens. Even without gerrymandering that can be the case. My district, for example, in SE Michigan hasn't elected a Republican in my entire lifetime I don't think. They could resurrect Lincoln, and he lose here too.
Or look at Henry Waxman's district, essentially Beverly Hills. He's retiring, so it's an open seat this year. The odds against a Republican winning there are better than the odds against me dating Maria Sharapova. That should tell you something.
So, I think that that contributes in part to the apathy as well: People, whether it's in say my district, or somewhere in the deep South like Mississippi, already know the result.
Finally, when it comes to the Presidential vote, the Electoral system doesn't help. Your vote doesn't count as 1 vote under the Electoral system. Again, let's take my state of Michigan. We have 9.8M people approximately. Now, let's say that Joe Smith (D) is running against Rebecca Jones (R). One of them is going to take all 16 electoral votes, the other will get none. So, if (this would never happen, but ...) 8M people vote and Smith gets 4,000,001 votes and Jones gets 3,999,999 votes, then Smith gets 16 electoral votes and Jones gets exactly 0.
I've spoken to people over the years who feel disenfranchised by the system we have. They feel that, "Hey, I voted for Jones, she lost by 2 votes out of 8M, and she gets NOTHING! Why did I even bother?" Now, obviously these people understand the system, which isn't necessarily the case. But I can understand why they are somewhat bitter and feel as though, in the end, "It doesn't matter."
This is even more important of a factor in states like Mississippi where a Democrat would never carry the state, or California where a Republican would never carry the state. California has 53 reps, 38 of which are Democrats. Conversely, Mississippi has 4 representatives, 3 of which are Republicans.
So, not only is your vote for President probably not going to be relevant, but your vote for your representative (or Senator for that matter) probably won't be either.
So, yes, I believe there are a ton of factors at work. And I think the fact that the states have become so solidly either red or blue isn't helping.
I don't know what tradition you speak of, but iPhones, for example, are much more complex to assemble than apparently you presume. Many workers in Chinese factories are Engineering graduates. The west literally does not have enough engineers to fulfill that demand.
Even if we did, would they work for that little money? Doubtful. So you are correct, and so is Mr Cook.