[quote] I think it will be a still camera probably around 3-4 Megapixels and use either a 2GB or 5GB 1.8 inch Toshiba HD. It will have firewire and integrate directly with iPhoto.
There may be a chance they will combine a still with a video camera and use 20GB Toshiba HD and use either MPEG 2 or possibly MPEG 4 video compression. <hr></blockquote>
Sounds entirely reasonable.
For the stills cam, how much space does a high-res image (JPG?) take up? 1Mb/2Mb? you could get plenty of photos on a small HD
For a vid cam, storage is less clear. If 1 hours DV stream takes up about 11Gb (or does it? this may be drivel), how much space does 1 hours footage compressed in MPEG2 or 4 take up?
Just curious to know what your thoughts are on Microsoft's recent push of tablets.
Not that they're innovative or anything remotely that but, one would think Microsoft would see a market and demand for something such as this to commit so much of their resources to it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, there are problems with the tablet concept.
Firstly, what the hell are we talking about? 'Tablet' seems to cover a lot of ground.
-PDA (small)
-larger PDA's/HPC/eBook sizes (still pocketable for lab-coats but by no means a palmV)
-graphics tablets
-LCD graphics tablets
-wireless monitors
-slates/cliboards, or 12.1-15" notebooks without keyboards or with detachable keyboards.
Here are the basic problems.
You type too fast! Even I, who can't touch type worth a damn, am capable of a speedy 4-finger 40wps hunt and peck.
Cost and functionality and power.
It IS NOT POSSIBLE to combine all three into a consumer device.
Look at any device in my hasty list, and you'll see that it is not possible to combine all three attributes.
Some targeted use devices are possible, but not the kind of wireless display/slate bandied about here, at least not for less than the cost of a top line iBook.
That's the problem, if it's going to be primarily a peripheral, then it needs to be cheap. A cheap device CAN NOT be as useful as a traditional laptop.
My only guess for something that spans the wishes of everyone here yet remains doable and useful and 'salable' at a high-end/early adopter price point, would be...
a PDA architecture beefed up and produced at an eBook size (like a 5x8 spiral notebook). Still goes in a lab coat, saves you the cost of ultra miniturization and lets you accomodate a useful battery, storage, and screen. Wireless conectivity, firewire charging -- only uses I/O that leverages existing standards and absolutely NO exotic hardware of any kind, period. An exotic software solution along the lines of "Rendezvous" compatibility is a different story, and quite useful for this type of device.
Pen input, a mic, recording, database functionality, a QT/PDF viewer and browser, calendar functionalities all included in a sealed unit. Virtual keyboard and handwriting recognition. NO EXPANSION, sealed, firewire port only.
It plays nice with OSX through standard protocols. It reads controls administers an auto detected network, but has Newton notetaking/data entry functionality when used in the field. Used to take/read and sync information. That's it. Even such a device would be expensive, but it would be doable and useful for those who need a stand-up/in the field/on the go quick fast convenient data collecting/sharing device.
A full computer running a full desktop/laptop OS like winXP or OSX in the vien of M$ tablet PC cannot yet be made to work well at a reasonable cost.
You must remember that M$ has been talking tablets forever, but they can't manage to build salable versions except for ruggedized/industrial-commercial-medical usage. They're stirring up attention, but people won't buy it.
An 8x5 eBook size device (built on a PDA architecture) with decent storage, good I/O, and info gathering/input/sharing/syncing software is the only thing that you could do right now for less than a 1000 US.
That's expensive for a peripheral, but you could find buyers.
For the stills cam, how much space does a high-res image (JPG?) take up? 1Mb/2Mb? you could get plenty of photos on a small HD
For a vid cam, storage is less clear. If 1 hours DV stream takes up about 11Gb (or does it? this may be drivel), how much space does 1 hours footage compressed in MPEG2 or 4 take up?
hang loose
G
----------------
London = rainy
Now playing = Tricky/Girls</strong><hr></blockquote>
dual layer dvd is 9.4 GB. it can hold up to 4hours of video in MPEG 2 compression. with high quality compression about 3 plus all the soundtracks.
a 20GB Toshiba drive would be able to hold more than enough MPEG 2 for a camera. MPEG 4 is about an hour and a half in 800MB I believe with good quality.
As you can see 20GB would be a lot of space for either codec
a PDA architecture beefed up and produced at an eBook size (like a 5x8 spiral notebook). Still goes in a lab coat, saves you the cost of ultra miniturization and lets you accomodate a useful battery, storage, and screen. Wireless conectivity, firewire charging -- only uses I/O that leverages existing standards and absolutely NO exotic hardware of any kind, period.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Careful...this sounds an awful lot like the...NEWTON!!!
dual layer dvd is 9.4 GB. it can hold up to 4hours of video in MPEG 2 compression. with high quality compression about 3 plus all the soundtracks.
a 20GB Toshiba drive would be able to hold more than enough MPEG 2 for a camera. MPEG 4 is about an hour and a half in 800MB I believe with good quality.
As you can see 20GB would be a lot of space for either codec</strong><hr></blockquote>
add to this that with the video stored as MPEG 2/4 on the hard drive Apple could transfer it to the computer at full firewire speed instead of the real time speed that miniDV and other tape formats require.
A HD based digital camcorder/camera seems very very likely IMo and I would buy one immediately
That's the problem, if it's going to be primarily a peripheral, then it needs to be cheap. A cheap device CAN NOT be as useful as a traditional laptop....
...An 8x5 eBook size device (built on a PDA architecture) with decent storage, good I/O, and info gathering/input/sharing/syncing software is the only thing that you could do right now for less than a 1000 US.
That's expensive for a peripheral, but you could find buyers.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Then add the fact that it's Apple and the price goes right through the roof.
But I do see a window (pun intended) of opportunity for Apple to be first to market (again) with some sort of Tablet or Newtonesque device.
But it'll have to do more than what the original Newton did. Apple's on a roll right now.
The public buys into innovation (like the iMac and iPod). The key this time is not to oversell the "Newton's" capabilities. But don't bother to launch it unless it's priced under $1000.
can anybody pls post either the link to, or, the illustration of, the really cool illustration that was floating around the boards about a year or so of a mock up of an apple pda. it had alot of clear plastic, and was maybe from the apple la guy (i dont remember). it was, and is, the greatest looking body for a pda.
Personally, I am hoping the next thing out of Apple is a wireless-enabled PDA, running a slimmed down version of OS 10.2, with an active matrix screen...and we shall call it iPad.
And Steve said that it was good and saw that it was good and it was therefore good. (Duh)
can anybody pls post either the link to, or, the illustration of, the really cool illustration that was floating around the boards about a year or so of a mock up of an apple pda. it had alot of clear plastic, and was maybe from the apple la guy (i dont remember). it was, and is, the greatest looking body for a pda.
The year was 1995. The place was Düsseldorf, Germany. The thing I held in my hand was a tablet - and it worked!
I had gone from Denmark to the annual Atari Computers exhibition, and there I happened to meet Atari's chief engineer who demonstrated this device and let some of us test it afterwards. The tablet, unfortunately, never entered full production since the market was too limited. Estimated price then: $2,000
Now, this device was similar to what MicroSoft has been demonstrating recently, except for two details: it didn't have a harddisk (the OS in an Atari ST was in a 512 KB ROM), and it didn't have WiFi (pardon my French!). So what has happened to time?
As pointed out by Matsu, the construction and form factor of such a device depends on the use foreseen:
Browse the 'net and read emails at home/airports:
Take an iBook, move the WiFi card and the battery to the back of the screen, add a button device a la iPod's for navigation, and rip off the lower part. Price: probably about $900.
Add chat, some writing, drawing capabilities:
Take an iBook, rip out the keyboard and the touchpad, rip the screen off, glue a touchscreen on to cover the gaping holes. Price: probably $2,200.
The first device is ideal for everyday tasks that more and more people perform: read email, news, find information (Watson!)... and before someone says noone will buy such a device for simple online reading - think again. Plus, it's a Value-Addition Device for the Apple Brand - like iPod. And it can be made fairly cheaply...
It depends on you having a Mac with built-in WiFi, of course. It runs as a NetBoot device. An optional holder cum charging device cum USB connection, and a mouse/ keyboard to plug in, and you have a thin-device terminal to run on your multi-user OSX. Added price: $150.
Or it can be used as a "normal" writepad for your Mac...
Or it could be part of a Special Edition iMac: the clip-on screen. Add $1,000 to the iMac's standard price - you need an extra WiFi card in the hemispherical foot.
The second device is excellent for chatting and useful for all other tasks. The holder/keyboard/mouse, mentioned above, makes it into a fully-fledged computer. If it has a kind of dock on top for mic/video/ phone modules, it can be seen as a total communications device and be very useful for meetings. It's too large for PDA use, though.
In addition, FRAN441 (?), as soon as you begin adding touchscreens and that kind of stuff, it becomes way too expensive - then it will not be able to establish a market segment sufficiently large to be viable. Adding too many possibilities into a device makes it un-marketeable; thus, hardware-convergence is no holy grail.
Some have suggested that the InkWell technology was simply dusted off and added to Jaguar (together with the iChat) in order to make it exciting for "average people" suffering from anti-acronymitis. The RendezVous technology, however, seems to suggest that it will have a central role in OSX iHub functionality.
engpjp
PS - The mockup seen above is from <a href="http://www.applele.com"; target="_blank">www.applele.com</a>
I like the look of that Apple handheld. I would love it if they ever actually made anything like that, it is by far the best looking handheld I have ever seen. Would Apple ever actually develop a completely new version of OSX for a handheld? Would it be worth it? I don't know, is the handheld market that big? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
Comments
[quote] I think it will be a still camera probably around 3-4 Megapixels and use either a 2GB or 5GB 1.8 inch Toshiba HD. It will have firewire and integrate directly with iPhoto.
There may be a chance they will combine a still with a video camera and use 20GB Toshiba HD and use either MPEG 2 or possibly MPEG 4 video compression. <hr></blockquote>
Sounds entirely reasonable.
For the stills cam, how much space does a high-res image (JPG?) take up? 1Mb/2Mb? you could get plenty of photos on a small HD
For a vid cam, storage is less clear. If 1 hours DV stream takes up about 11Gb (or does it? this may be drivel), how much space does 1 hours footage compressed in MPEG2 or 4 take up?
hang loose
G
----------------
London = rainy
Now playing = Tricky/Girls
<a href="http://hollywood.org/DGS/index2.html"; target="_blank">http://hollywood.org/DGS/index2.html</a>;
Then you can stick 7.5 minutes per megabyte, or 2 hours on 16MB...
Could it be real? I'm not placing any bets.
<strong>
Just curious to know what your thoughts are on Microsoft's recent push of tablets.
Not that they're innovative or anything remotely that but, one would think Microsoft would see a market and demand for something such as this to commit so much of their resources to it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, there are problems with the tablet concept.
Firstly, what the hell are we talking about? 'Tablet' seems to cover a lot of ground.
-PDA (small)
-larger PDA's/HPC/eBook sizes (still pocketable for lab-coats but by no means a palmV)
-graphics tablets
-LCD graphics tablets
-wireless monitors
-slates/cliboards, or 12.1-15" notebooks without keyboards or with detachable keyboards.
Here are the basic problems.
You type too fast! Even I, who can't touch type worth a damn, am capable of a speedy 4-finger 40wps hunt and peck.
Cost and functionality and power.
It IS NOT POSSIBLE to combine all three into a consumer device.
Look at any device in my hasty list, and you'll see that it is not possible to combine all three attributes.
Some targeted use devices are possible, but not the kind of wireless display/slate bandied about here, at least not for less than the cost of a top line iBook.
That's the problem, if it's going to be primarily a peripheral, then it needs to be cheap. A cheap device CAN NOT be as useful as a traditional laptop.
My only guess for something that spans the wishes of everyone here yet remains doable and useful and 'salable' at a high-end/early adopter price point, would be...
a PDA architecture beefed up and produced at an eBook size (like a 5x8 spiral notebook). Still goes in a lab coat, saves you the cost of ultra miniturization and lets you accomodate a useful battery, storage, and screen. Wireless conectivity, firewire charging -- only uses I/O that leverages existing standards and absolutely NO exotic hardware of any kind, period. An exotic software solution along the lines of "Rendezvous" compatibility is a different story, and quite useful for this type of device.
Pen input, a mic, recording, database functionality, a QT/PDF viewer and browser, calendar functionalities all included in a sealed unit. Virtual keyboard and handwriting recognition. NO EXPANSION, sealed, firewire port only.
It plays nice with OSX through standard protocols. It reads controls administers an auto detected network, but has Newton notetaking/data entry functionality when used in the field. Used to take/read and sync information. That's it. Even such a device would be expensive, but it would be doable and useful for those who need a stand-up/in the field/on the go quick fast convenient data collecting/sharing device.
A full computer running a full desktop/laptop OS like winXP or OSX in the vien of M$ tablet PC cannot yet be made to work well at a reasonable cost.
You must remember that M$ has been talking tablets forever, but they can't manage to build salable versions except for ruggedized/industrial-commercial-medical usage. They're stirring up attention, but people won't buy it.
An 8x5 eBook size device (built on a PDA architecture) with decent storage, good I/O, and info gathering/input/sharing/syncing software is the only thing that you could do right now for less than a 1000 US.
That's expensive for a peripheral, but you could find buyers.
<strong>Applenut:
Sounds entirely reasonable.
For the stills cam, how much space does a high-res image (JPG?) take up? 1Mb/2Mb? you could get plenty of photos on a small HD
For a vid cam, storage is less clear. If 1 hours DV stream takes up about 11Gb (or does it? this may be drivel), how much space does 1 hours footage compressed in MPEG2 or 4 take up?
hang loose
G
----------------
London = rainy
Now playing = Tricky/Girls</strong><hr></blockquote>
dual layer dvd is 9.4 GB. it can hold up to 4hours of video in MPEG 2 compression. with high quality compression about 3 plus all the soundtracks.
a 20GB Toshiba drive would be able to hold more than enough MPEG 2 for a camera. MPEG 4 is about an hour and a half in 800MB I believe with good quality.
As you can see 20GB would be a lot of space for either codec
<strong>
a PDA architecture beefed up and produced at an eBook size (like a 5x8 spiral notebook). Still goes in a lab coat, saves you the cost of ultra miniturization and lets you accomodate a useful battery, storage, and screen. Wireless conectivity, firewire charging -- only uses I/O that leverages existing standards and absolutely NO exotic hardware of any kind, period.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Careful...this sounds an awful lot like the...NEWTON!!!
Gotta love the reoccuring Newton threads.
<strong>
dual layer dvd is 9.4 GB. it can hold up to 4hours of video in MPEG 2 compression. with high quality compression about 3 plus all the soundtracks.
a 20GB Toshiba drive would be able to hold more than enough MPEG 2 for a camera. MPEG 4 is about an hour and a half in 800MB I believe with good quality.
As you can see 20GB would be a lot of space for either codec</strong><hr></blockquote>
add to this that with the video stored as MPEG 2/4 on the hard drive Apple could transfer it to the computer at full firewire speed instead of the real time speed that miniDV and other tape formats require.
A HD based digital camcorder/camera seems very very likely IMo and I would buy one immediately
<strong>
That's the problem, if it's going to be primarily a peripheral, then it needs to be cheap. A cheap device CAN NOT be as useful as a traditional laptop....
...An 8x5 eBook size device (built on a PDA architecture) with decent storage, good I/O, and info gathering/input/sharing/syncing software is the only thing that you could do right now for less than a 1000 US.
That's expensive for a peripheral, but you could find buyers.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Then add the fact that it's Apple and the price goes right through the roof.
But I do see a window (pun intended) of opportunity for Apple to be first to market (again) with some sort of Tablet or Newtonesque device.
But it'll have to do more than what the original Newton did. Apple's on a roll right now.
The public buys into innovation (like the iMac and iPod). The key this time is not to oversell the "Newton's" capabilities. But don't bother to launch it unless it's priced under $1000.
can anybody pls post either the link to, or, the illustration of, the really cool illustration that was floating around the boards about a year or so of a mock up of an apple pda. it had alot of clear plastic, and was maybe from the apple la guy (i dont remember). it was, and is, the greatest looking body for a pda.
thnx
[ 05-25-2002: Message edited by: niji ]</p>
<strong>Here's the article:
<a href="http://www.forbes.com/2002/05/21/0521tentech.html"; target="_blank">http://www.forbes.com/2002/05/21/0521tentech.html</a></strong><hr></blockquote>;
Personally, I am hoping the next thing out of Apple is a wireless-enabled PDA, running a slimmed down version of OS 10.2, with an active matrix screen...and we shall call it iPad.
And Steve said that it was good and saw that it was good and it was therefore good. (Duh)
<strong>hi,
can anybody pls post either the link to, or, the illustration of, the really cool illustration that was floating around the boards about a year or so of a mock up of an apple pda. it had alot of clear plastic, and was maybe from the apple la guy (i dont remember). it was, and is, the greatest looking body for a pda.
thnx
[ 05-25-2002: Message edited by: niji ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Was it this one?
This came out so long ago I forget where this came from.
[ 05-28-2002: Message edited by: neutrino23 ]</p>
i just had to see it again. i like it very much.
thnx for posting it.
I had gone from Denmark to the annual Atari Computers exhibition, and there I happened to meet Atari's chief engineer who demonstrated this device and let some of us test it afterwards. The tablet, unfortunately, never entered full production since the market was too limited. Estimated price then: $2,000
Now, this device was similar to what MicroSoft has been demonstrating recently, except for two details: it didn't have a harddisk (the OS in an Atari ST was in a 512 KB ROM), and it didn't have WiFi (pardon my French!). So what has happened to time?
As pointed out by Matsu, the construction and form factor of such a device depends on the use foreseen:
Browse the 'net and read emails at home/airports:
Take an iBook, move the WiFi card and the battery to the back of the screen, add a button device a la iPod's for navigation, and rip off the lower part. Price: probably about $900.
Add chat, some writing, drawing capabilities:
Take an iBook, rip out the keyboard and the touchpad, rip the screen off, glue a touchscreen on to cover the gaping holes. Price: probably $2,200.
The first device is ideal for everyday tasks that more and more people perform: read email, news, find information (Watson!)... and before someone says noone will buy such a device for simple online reading - think again. Plus, it's a Value-Addition Device for the Apple Brand - like iPod. And it can be made fairly cheaply...
It depends on you having a Mac with built-in WiFi, of course. It runs as a NetBoot device. An optional holder cum charging device cum USB connection, and a mouse/ keyboard to plug in, and you have a thin-device terminal to run on your multi-user OSX. Added price: $150.
Or it can be used as a "normal" writepad for your Mac...
Or it could be part of a Special Edition iMac: the clip-on screen. Add $1,000 to the iMac's standard price - you need an extra WiFi card in the hemispherical foot.
The second device is excellent for chatting and useful for all other tasks. The holder/keyboard/mouse, mentioned above, makes it into a fully-fledged computer. If it has a kind of dock on top for mic/video/ phone modules, it can be seen as a total communications device and be very useful for meetings. It's too large for PDA use, though.
In addition, FRAN441 (?), as soon as you begin adding touchscreens and that kind of stuff, it becomes way too expensive - then it will not be able to establish a market segment sufficiently large to be viable. Adding too many possibilities into a device makes it un-marketeable; thus, hardware-convergence is no holy grail.
Some have suggested that the InkWell technology was simply dusted off and added to Jaguar (together with the iChat) in order to make it exciting for "average people" suffering from anti-acronymitis. The RendezVous technology, however, seems to suggest that it will have a central role in OSX iHub functionality.
engpjp
PS - The mockup seen above is from <a href="http://www.applele.com"; target="_blank">www.applele.com</a>