Maybe I'm missing something, and if I am, please let me know, but the PowerMacs top out at 1GHz. Why would the PowerBooks be there too? When have the PowerBooks ever had the same processor as the PowerMac? It's a portable. You have to make tradeoffs for the fact that you are carrying this thing around instead of having it sit on your desk. Convenience comes at a price. That's just life, as far as i can see.
<strong>only a little ***** complains about a laptop weighing a whole 9.7 pounds.
who are you MiniMe?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't know about you, but I walk places with my TiBook. After about a mile, you certainly notice the difference between 9.6 and 5.3 lbs. Believe me. I've walked with just my TiBook, and with both the TiBook and my 2400c in my bag. The extra weight does a number on you after a good walk down the street.
Extra weight is also not a good thing when you have a luggage and an additional heavy-enough carryon bag to deal with at the airport.
Welcome to the real world. A portable computer's weight is an important spec.
I doubt that a DELL laptop outperforms any Apple desktop. The Mac hardware side is getting pretty bad, but it hasn't yet achieved the truly pathetic state you describe. Not counting Quake performance here.
I can't believe all the bitching mac people do about the weight of a laptop. Steve preaches about the great light laptops and we eat it up. This is obviously to make us not notice that they are not that great spec-wise. I would not mind carrying an 8 pound laptop. I carried a toilet seat iBook around for a whole year, which was a 7 lb laptop, and never had a problem with the weight. And no, I didn't use the dumb handle, I carried it like a laptop. I can do it, so can you guys.
being completely objective (mostly) - i have to agree with detah and G4dude. i think you wussie's need to get a grip on this whole 7~9lbs being too much for a desktop replacement laptop to weigh. and yes, screw steve jobs for trying to underestimate his consumers intelligence by shifting the focus onto the form factor of the machines being the real deal, when the performance is barely keeping it's place in the shadows of peecee's.
and screw all you bratty f*kk's who want to do nothing but shoot down the possibility of apple introducing a whole REALLY revised tibook at mwny. you're just a whiney bunch of bitter dorks who don't want to think that their recently, or soon-to-be purchased tibooks won't be old form passe in the possibility of just 60 days from now. too bad. deal with it. it's punks like you that probably grew up as single children, brats, spoiled, and hated sharing unless it was on your terms. grow up, losers. i hope just for that sake alone, apple completey defies your selfish secret hopes and introduces an insanely different powerbook from the ground up - and you, once again as a reflection from a possible bad childhood experience where you bragged about a new toy you thought was the ultimate in cool to someone else, then found out the next day yours was old news and a newer one came out so you cried and stomped off to mommy and daddy - must relive this painful experience.
personally, i could give a shite less about the form factor and would much rather have a rocksteady workhorse of a laptop even if it meant the machine being twice as thick, made of abusable plastic, highly competitive processing power, fast ass bus, latest graphics chip, working world design screen, consistent airport reception, and a realistic 3-4hour battery in OS X; NOT 9. screw 9.
yes, apple needs to return to function before fashion. get the job done right, THEN be hip. so you scrawny gel haired model type pencil armed fools need to shut up about the weight and focus on the potential of power and workflow advancement FIRST. i for one, will not continue to buy apple for the mere sake of "ooh's and ahh's" at the local coffee shop. to me, the damn thing is just a tool. and yes, i use both peecee and apple. yes, i enjoy apple more. but if i have to use os9 for ANYTHING after mwny, that's just wrong. apple needs to make their machines more than able, beyond a shadow of a consumers doubt, that every single component is beyond qualified to maximize the benefits of it's new os. why? price. we pay a premium - we expect premium quality and service. i do not buy apple to "be different" before i buy it to "be efficient". (if you steal that slogan apple, you better pay me).
back to my point: i hope to heaven that we see an earth shattering mwny that introduces not only the already expected desktop revisions, but a new form factor powerbook that makes any of the "mines gotta be the best always" sukka's eat their words. and if they don't, so be it. the world will find other karmic ways to make you cry. ciao chumps.
m1, welcome to appleinsider. I hope you like verbal abusing, cause that's what you'll get for saying anything remotely against "the company." Oh, by the way, great post and thanks for backing me up
Reading through this thread I see that some people don't seem to understand that the G4 PowerBooks are in the "full sized light weight" category of portables. The people who are complaining are comparing it to the heavier "Desktop Replacement" category.
When the is Dell configured to match the PowerBook 800MHz (same drive, memory, 32MB Video, air port, etc.) it costs $3,194.00 -- and it is only using a 1.2GHz Mobile Pentium III. :eek:
All of the current light weight notebooks on the windows side seem to use the mobile P3s, the P4 just needs too much cooling and power.
Now, I do wish that Apple would expand its PowerBook line to include sub-notbooks and larger desktop replacement portables, but in the light weight portable class, the PowerBooks are still ahead of the competition.
m1, what you are suggesting is impossible for Apple. If Apple's 31lb desktop cannot compete with x86 laptops a quarter of their weight, their PowerBooks will not either. This is the situation for the forseeable future.
And the performance parity is increasing by the day.
Apple needs something fundamentally different from PPC. I hope it's the G5. The G4 is based upon the G3 core, which was based upon the 603 core. The G4 added Altivec while the G3 added backside L2 cache. In essense, we're using highly refined 603's with Altivec and different cache implementation.
We need a totally redesigned superscalar core. We need more execution units, an Altivec II, an on-die memory controller and more pipeline stages if we're ever going to be competitive. And I doubt we'll see either of these things before next year, by which time Opteron and Intel's next generation will be out. We're already two years behind, and it will only get worse.
This is why I believe Apple has no future beyond 2004 or 2005 unless we see G5 very soon, it has all the above features, is highly scable and is clocked intially at about 2GHz.
Of course, we know this will not happen. By next year, Intel will be well into 3GHz territory while we'll most likely be struggling along at 1.4 or 1.5GHz on a relatively slow bus.
Actually, a Dell Inspiron 8200 weighs 7.9 lbs. You can purchase one of these for under $2000 and it out-performs any desktop computer Apple offers.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Good to know. I'll keep that in mind the next time I want an 8 lb hunk of junk notebook that will go kaput on me within a year and a half, as I've seen many a PC laptop do.
[quote]Originally posted by detah:
<strong>
It makes your iBook look like a calculator. You would have to be a rather sickly person, if an extra 1.5 lbs weighs you down. </strong><hr></blockquote>
TiBook, son. Read carefully. I'd like to see any of those Inspirons crunch 8.3 Megakeys/s. That aside, I didn't even argue performance. I know the G4 has strengths and weaknesses. I'm not an idiot, and I didn't make an uninformed decision. Don't treat me as such.
If you want to get technical about it, an extra 1.5 lb weighs anyone down, given that in all cases, weight_without < weight_with. It's a burden I don't feel I should be carrying for multiple mile walks. I'd like to see you carry a damn 8-10lb laptop, lab notebooks, reference manuals, and various other stuff around for ~3 miles each day, and schlep it through the airport from time to time. Then tell me how much you like it. Once again, you get the
My bet is that Apple will be releasing a machine with some form of updated PPC 74xx with AltiVec 2 and true DDR266 support. This will be dubbed the "G5."
The ALU and FPU performance will be lackluster. SIMD and vector ops will be quite impressive. Despite the greatness of AV2, few people will redo their vectorizable routines in AltiVec 2 asm, rather hoping that the compilers (which suck) will autovectorize for them, and not cause the developers to exert any effort. Performance will not change that much.
And the carbon API will still be a royal pain in the ass to use, while oddly clinging to it's CMT roots in things like pulling down menus.
In other words, SSDD. Unfortunately, the advantages of the platform still outweigh the oversights and meddlesome suckiness of performance. It's a rather odd paradox.
[quote]The current PowerBooks are the best laptops available in their class. <hr></blockquote>
don't believe for a minute apple themselves don't think they're not marketing the powerbook as a desktop replacement. that's what it is. quit being conveniently disillusioned by your "class" b.s. that's just a scapegoat, don't be naive.
the powerbook is to be compared to sony's grx series at $2699 and $3099 (two high end models), component for component, as well as toshiba's satellite 5105 at $2499, again eye for eye - and whatever else there may be ie alienware's m51 at a reasonabley close price points. that's just how it goes. smart consumers see price point and features, not "but apple has so much cool potential and makes me look unique".
ps, G4dude - thanks for the welcome... and warning. ha.
Comments
<strong>
Okay.
<a href="http://www.alienware.com/main/system_pages/area51-m.asp"; target="_blank">Introducng the Alienware Area-51-M.</a>
It's clock speed is three times the current top-of-the-line PowerBook G4.
It's bus speed is three times the current top-of-the-line PowerBook G4.
It has twice the video memory.
It has a screen that has over 50% higher pixel density.
It has two drive bays.
It has longer battery life than the PowerBook G4 which is rated at having approximately 1.5 hours under OS X by reviewers.
It is $359 cheaper than the top-of-the-line PowerBook G4.
[ 05-30-2002: Message edited by: Nostradamus ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
the PC:
Dimension (H) x (W) x (D) : 1.7"x13"x11.4"
Weight: 9.6lbs.
the pbg4:
Weight: 5.3 lbs.
Dimensions: 1" H x 13.4" W x 9.5" D
that PC laptop shouldn't be compared with a pbg4... It should be compared with two pbg4s..
and
<a href="http://www.coolchips.com/"; target="_blank">http://www.coolchips.com/</a>;
<strong>
the PC:
Dimension (H) x (W) x (D) : 1.7"x13"x11.4"
Weight: 9.6lbs.
the pbg4:
Weight: 5.3 lbs.
Dimensions: 1" H x 13.4" W x 9.5" D
that PC laptop shouldn't be compared with a pbg4... It should be compared with two pbg4s..</strong><hr></blockquote>
How about we let it go against a 31lb dual 1GHz PowerMac G4 and watch the AlienWare laptop clean up the remains?
[ 05-30-2002: Message edited by: Nostradamus ]</p>
who are you MiniMe?
<strong>only a little ***** complains about a laptop weighing a whole 9.7 pounds.
who are you MiniMe?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't know about you, but I walk places with my TiBook. After about a mile, you certainly notice the difference between 9.6 and 5.3 lbs. Believe me. I've walked with just my TiBook, and with both the TiBook and my 2400c in my bag. The extra weight does a number on you after a good walk down the street.
Extra weight is also not a good thing when you have a luggage and an additional heavy-enough carryon bag to deal with at the airport.
Welcome to the real world. A portable computer's weight is an important spec.
<strong>
Welcome to the real world. A portable computer's weight is an important spec.
Actually, a Dell Inspiron 8200 weighs 7.9 lbs. You can purchase one of these for under $2000 and it out-performs any desktop computer Apple offers.
It makes your iBook look like a calculator. You would have to be a rather sickly person, if an extra 1.5 lbs weighs you down.
p.s. Everybody gets ripped off one time or another.
<strong>huh? how is a 8 pound dell better than my dvi powerbook g4? other than playing games?</strong><hr></blockquote>
and screw all you bratty f*kk's who want to do nothing but shoot down the possibility of apple introducing a whole REALLY revised tibook at mwny. you're just a whiney bunch of bitter dorks who don't want to think that their recently, or soon-to-be purchased tibooks won't be old form passe in the possibility of just 60 days from now. too bad. deal with it. it's punks like you that probably grew up as single children, brats, spoiled, and hated sharing unless it was on your terms. grow up, losers. i hope just for that sake alone, apple completey defies your selfish secret hopes and introduces an insanely different powerbook from the ground up - and you, once again as a reflection from a possible bad childhood experience where you bragged about a new toy you thought was the ultimate in cool to someone else, then found out the next day yours was old news and a newer one came out so you cried and stomped off to mommy and daddy - must relive this painful experience.
personally, i could give a shite less about the form factor and would much rather have a rocksteady workhorse of a laptop even if it meant the machine being twice as thick, made of abusable plastic, highly competitive processing power, fast ass bus, latest graphics chip, working world design screen, consistent airport reception, and a realistic 3-4hour battery in OS X; NOT 9. screw 9.
yes, apple needs to return to function before fashion. get the job done right, THEN be hip. so you scrawny gel haired model type pencil armed fools need to shut up about the weight and focus on the potential of power and workflow advancement FIRST. i for one, will not continue to buy apple for the mere sake of "ooh's and ahh's" at the local coffee shop. to me, the damn thing is just a tool. and yes, i use both peecee and apple. yes, i enjoy apple more. but if i have to use os9 for ANYTHING after mwny, that's just wrong. apple needs to make their machines more than able, beyond a shadow of a consumers doubt, that every single component is beyond qualified to maximize the benefits of it's new os. why? price. we pay a premium - we expect premium quality and service. i do not buy apple to "be different" before i buy it to "be efficient". (if you steal that slogan apple, you better pay me).
back to my point: i hope to heaven that we see an earth shattering mwny that introduces not only the already expected desktop revisions, but a new form factor powerbook that makes any of the "mines gotta be the best always" sukka's eat their words. and if they don't, so be it. the world will find other karmic ways to make you cry. ciao chumps.
[ 05-31-2002: Message edited by: m1 ]</p>
The current PowerBooks are the best laptops available in their class. It beats the Sony <a href="http://www.sonystyle.com/vaio/vx/index.shtml"; target="_blank">http://www.sonystyle.com/vaio/vx/index.shtml</a>; and the Dell Inspiration 4100 <a href="http://www.dell.com/us/en/dhs/offers/specials_3x_special08.htm"; target="_blank">http://www.dell.com/us/en/dhs/offers/specials_3x_special08.htm</a>;
When the is Dell configured to match the PowerBook 800MHz (same drive, memory, 32MB Video, air port, etc.) it costs $3,194.00 -- and it is only using a 1.2GHz Mobile Pentium III. :eek:
All of the current light weight notebooks on the windows side seem to use the mobile P3s, the P4 just needs too much cooling and power.
Now, I do wish that Apple would expand its PowerBook line to include sub-notbooks and larger desktop replacement portables, but in the light weight portable class, the PowerBooks are still ahead of the competition.
[ 05-31-2002: Message edited by: Res ]</p>
And the performance parity is increasing by the day.
Apple needs something fundamentally different from PPC. I hope it's the G5. The G4 is based upon the G3 core, which was based upon the 603 core. The G4 added Altivec while the G3 added backside L2 cache. In essense, we're using highly refined 603's with Altivec and different cache implementation.
We need a totally redesigned superscalar core. We need more execution units, an Altivec II, an on-die memory controller and more pipeline stages if we're ever going to be competitive. And I doubt we'll see either of these things before next year, by which time Opteron and Intel's next generation will be out. We're already two years behind, and it will only get worse.
This is why I believe Apple has no future beyond 2004 or 2005 unless we see G5 very soon, it has all the above features, is highly scable and is clocked intially at about 2GHz.
Of course, we know this will not happen. By next year, Intel will be well into 3GHz territory while we'll most likely be struggling along at 1.4 or 1.5GHz on a relatively slow bus.
[ 05-31-2002: Message edited by: Nostradamus ]</p>
<strong>
Actually, a Dell Inspiron 8200 weighs 7.9 lbs. You can purchase one of these for under $2000 and it out-performs any desktop computer Apple offers.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Good to know. I'll keep that in mind the next time I want an 8 lb hunk of junk notebook that will go kaput on me within a year and a half, as I've seen many a PC laptop do.
[quote]Originally posted by detah:
<strong>
It makes your iBook look like a calculator. You would have to be a rather sickly person, if an extra 1.5 lbs weighs you down. </strong><hr></blockquote>
TiBook, son. Read carefully. I'd like to see any of those Inspirons crunch 8.3 Megakeys/s. That aside, I didn't even argue performance. I know the G4 has strengths and weaknesses. I'm not an idiot, and I didn't make an uninformed decision. Don't treat me as such.
If you want to get technical about it, an extra 1.5 lb weighs anyone down, given that in all cases, weight_without < weight_with. It's a burden I don't feel I should be carrying for multiple mile walks. I'd like to see you carry a damn 8-10lb laptop, lab notebooks, reference manuals, and various other stuff around for ~3 miles each day, and schlep it through the airport from time to time. Then tell me how much you like it. Once again, you get the
[ 05-31-2002: Message edited by: All ]</p>
The ALU and FPU performance will be lackluster. SIMD and vector ops will be quite impressive. Despite the greatness of AV2, few people will redo their vectorizable routines in AltiVec 2 asm, rather hoping that the compilers (which suck) will autovectorize for them, and not cause the developers to exert any effort. Performance will not change that much.
And the carbon API will still be a royal pain in the ass to use, while oddly clinging to it's CMT roots in things like pulling down menus.
In other words, SSDD. Unfortunately, the advantages of the platform still outweigh the oversights and meddlesome suckiness of performance. It's a rather odd paradox.
[ 05-31-2002: Message edited by: All ]</p>
don't believe for a minute apple themselves don't think they're not marketing the powerbook as a desktop replacement. that's what it is. quit being conveniently disillusioned by your "class" b.s. that's just a scapegoat, don't be naive.
the powerbook is to be compared to sony's grx series at $2699 and $3099 (two high end models), component for component, as well as toshiba's satellite 5105 at $2499, again eye for eye - and whatever else there may be ie alienware's m51 at a reasonabley close price points. that's just how it goes. smart consumers see price point and features, not "but apple has so much cool potential and makes me look unique".
ps, G4dude - thanks for the welcome... and warning. ha.
[QB]m1, what you are suggesting is impossible for Apple. [QB]<hr></blockquote>
perhaps. but so was an apple comeback on the original imac alone...