you listed several things as innovations by MS and asked me why they aren't, please tell me why they are to be considered innovations.
in response to what has Apple innovated:
FireWire IEEE1394 was the first high bandwidth, hot swapable, no ID required, powered, peripheral bus available for everything from digital cameras to hard drives.
[quote]Microsoft has everything to gain from Apple increasing market share.<hr></blockquote>
You realize, of course, that Microsoft "losing" a customer to Apple means that they lose both an Office sale and an OS sale?
I mean, you did think of that, right?
[quote]Unless they are able to come up with some fancy ass new features, which push that gotta have it button, they are going to be selling less and less of the suite.<hr></blockquote>
Ok, if it starts sucking it will sell less. Using that logic you are essentially saying that Office is so widespread now because it doesn't suck.
[quote]No, I'm saying that because of this, Apple has more to gain from writing better software than Microsoft would.<hr></blockquote>
What in God's name does that have to do with anything?
I'll agree, though, since software is what Apple uses to push overpriced hardware out the door.
[quote]Microsoft had NOTHING to do with the price of hardware. If anything, they slowed the sales of computers by failing to release an easy intuative GUI before 1995.<hr></blockquote>
But Apple was alive and well from 1984 - 1995. Why did it take so long for the PC world to take off like it did?
Windows had the ability to run on thousands of different hardware configurations, that is why it got so widespread and that is why so many people were finally able to join in.
sine:
[quote]That's isn't innovation. That is just copying some one else's idea and giving it out to more people.<hr></blockquote>
You mean like Apple did with the Macintosh?
Oh but wait, their thievery was innovative!
[quote]As far as I know MS didn't event the Operating System.<hr></blockquote>
Clarify what this means.
I never said MS invented operating systems, I said they innovated NT. Do you know what NT is?
They built it jointly with IBM. IBM abandoned it so everything post OS/2 3.x is Microsoft's work.
[quote]Formats that are copies of other formats based on a technology they didn't innovate. That isn't innovation.<hr></blockquote>
Copies of what formats? (I genuinely don't know)
[quote]The taskbar is just some one else's innovation that MS redid.<hr></blockquote>
Ah I am glad you brought this point up. Apple was invited to go over to PARC to take a look at their products. Apple PAYED them to go and see. Apple all ready had their GUI plans on the table. Apple had all ready had their GUI designed. What Apple DIDN'T have is a way to put this in action. Apple payed a lot of money to Xerox for their information. They gave Xerox tons of Apple stock too. Also Apple hired a lot of PARC employees a long the way. See before they went to PARC and saw these things Jeff Raskin was developing a GUI all ready. Where did Jeff work before Apple? Xerox. The Mac OS didn't act or look ANYTHING like the PARC OS. It didn't have folders like we know it.. you couldn't manually resize windows.. there are TONS of differences. MS however took Apple's look and feel and copied it. They even used some of it's code in the first version of Windows and changed it a bit (sound familiar?) MS had full access to the Mac OS and it's code years before it came out. MS was one of Apple's BIGGEST software makers. But little did Steve know that was a BIG mistake. Apple wasn't the one that theived. Apple isn't the one that invented the GUI either.
[quote]<strong>
Clarify what this means.
I never said MS invented operating systems, I said they innovated NT. Do you know what NT is?
They built it jointly with IBM. IBM abandoned it so everything post OS/2 3.x is Microsoft's work.
<hr></blockquote></strong>
And what is NT? It's a OS... as far as I know.. Operating Systems where around before NT. How is NT innovative? Innovation is inventing something new..Operating Systems are not new. Sun did it before MS.. I suggest you read this article
[quote]<strong>Copies of what formats?<hr></blockquote></strong>
You know there where movie and media players out before WMP right? The first one out was.. anyone.. ? QuickTime.. another Apple innovation. Until QuickTime came out.. there was nothing like this. WMP is just a copy of Apple's innovation.
[quote]<strong>What would that be?
<hr></blockquote></strong>
NeXT had a similar taskbar, Actually MS took a lot from NeXT. Actually more so than they took from Apple.
Yes, its not like I have a shortage, but I want to keep you actually answering my questions, which is something you have avoided, you have just been flaming back and forth with Sinewave, thats fine, you both seem to be going at it honestly, whatever.
But yeah, for the moment - one thing that Apple has innovated was FireWire. Please tell me if that is not correct in some way, after we talk about it if there is no contention, I will give you another example.
MS seems to think taking a idea that is all ready though of.. and came up with putting MS's name on it and bundling it with the OS is called innovation.
pull down menus, over lapping windows, window "panes," the analogy of a "desktop," files and folders that depict their type by their icon, the trash can metaphor, the concept of the piece of paper desktop layout [most important items are in the upper left and you read left to right, least important/most destructive are in the lower right corner].
I am downloading the original Macintosh Human Interface Guidelines they can be found here:
If you're going to open that up then Windows has a thousand and one little OS developments I could call up. I could easily say Microsoft "innovated" a constantly-visible grouping of running applications and the windows those applications use. They also brought the ease of cut and paste to the filing system. and blah blah blah blah
The link is not for argument, whatever, if you want to think that Windows is a good GUI - well that is BS - but you are entitled. Course you should also look at both the two links [this and the one I posted earlier] because between them it is very obvious that Mac OS was built to be more intuitive at even the most basic levels where Windows was not.
You present opinions as fact, that's bad form. You are about as far from qualified to judge the merits of the Windows UI as you could possibly get.
I don't dispute your claim that Apple "innovated" those UI elements, I only assert that if you can count that in your list of Apple innovations then I can count all the things Windows does.
What computer company has innovated anything then?
<hr></blockquote></strong>
Lets not take my quotes out of context shall we? I originally said
"Innovation is inventing something new..Operating Systems are not new." to explain to you why NT wasn't innovative. New meaning not came up with before. And indeed their where OS's out before NT.
[quote]<strong>
Quicktime was out before WindowsMedia. . . so? How does that substantiate your claim that WM is a "copy" of something else?
How did Microsoft rip Quicktime off to create WindowsMedia?
<hr></blockquote></strong>
You know innovation takes ideas.. new ideas. Apple was the first to put such a program out. They innovated that product. MS copied that idea with WMP. Again NOT innovation.
[quote]<strong>
NeXT's taskbar setup is very different from Windows'. Please provide a little detail.
<hr></blockquote></strong>
Yeah just like Windows is set up different from the Mac OS. But I wouldn't call Window's GUI innovative The idea of the taskbar was around before MS implemented it. MS didn't invent or innovate the task bar.
You didn't answer my question, sinewave, what computer company has innovated anything using your definition?
Fireware can't be an innovation since busses and cables were around before it. Excel has a better argument, but even that can't qualify under your definition.
Here's what you are doing, sinewave, and I called it before it started: You are applying a stricter definition of innovation to Microsoft than you are to Apple or basically any other company.
You'll cream all over Apple for their UI (and claim that buying their ideas from Xerox is innovation) while Microsoft doing essentially the same thing (without paying for it) is not innovation.
[quote]Apple was the first to put such a program out.<hr></blockquote>
Apple was the first to release an application that played video? Is that what you're saying?
QT 1.0 was released Dec.1 1991. That was the first computer application to play video, is what you're saying?
Please just say it again, I'll give you another chance to pull your head out.
[quote]But I wouldn't call Window's GUI innovative<hr></blockquote>
I started reading the arguments about 'innovation' but honestly don't have the time to read the drivel.
I think Groverat is trying to yank your guys' SCSI chains.
Apple is widely accepted as being one of, if not *the* most, innovative companies in the computing industry. If a person needs it spelled out for them with a list of innovations then they clearly need to brush up on their history of computing.
However, here is a short list of "innovations" that Apple has introduced to the world of computing. And Groverat, the reason MS took off like it did has a lot to do with a combination of elements such as bad management at Apple (they tried to catch up on the desktop without properly realizing the importance of the emerging internet), monopolization tactics by MS (proven in *courts* of law in US and EU), and the fact that several companies were selling MS operated PCs and only one (for the most part) were selling Macs.
The list of Apple innovations (technical standards which Apple invented, or worked with another company to improve to the point which made such things a feasible 'standard' in the PC market):
Color - Jobs was bumrushed at the expo where this was first shown
GUI - using tech licensed (not stolen) from Xerox. Improded it. Made it affordable to the masses. (millions sold is masses)
Mouse - considered a toy by the DOS pundits (kinda like the Segway today)
16bit Sound - First to include. Remember the lawsuit by Apple Records?
Quicktime - invented in house.10 years old this month.
SCSI - helped to invent
Floppy disk - helped invent and first to include.
Built in CD-ROM - first to introduce in affordable PC.
Dual monitor support - since waaay back in the day.
Plastic casing - no not the iMac, the Mac Classic. Before this they were metal, awkward and heavy.
All in one w/monitor - saves space eh?
WYSIWYG - only relatively recently has this been on PCs...so so on Win95. Win98+ it got pretty decent for text. Still sucks on Win for color.
All of the above were there even when Mac had 50%+ marketshare.
Newer items, even though marketshare is smaller.
Colorsync
Firewire - duh.
Wireless Networking/AirPort - developed with Lucent. Possible before but difficult and expensive and certainly not widespread.
Desktop Video at the consumer level.
One could even say that including Optical Mice on every computer is somewhat innovative. It certainly helps to drive down the cost of the technology. And no other computer company is doing that still...
That's the short list. I'm sure I forgot some. And I'm sure MS has innovated something. Though exactly what escapes me.
By the way, MS didn't make the PC cheap. That was the ingenious work of the greedy ignoble likes of Michael Dell and his ilk. Figuring out how to use less screws on your PC to make it that much cheaper may be an innovation.
However did you see the RedHerring article clearly defining Dell as the "Anti-Technology" company? Dell innovates in business perhaps, but not technology. And he certainly isn't out to make the world a better place. Well, maybe his world.
I don't think I've ever made the argument that Apple isn't innovative and hasn't done things innovative in the past.
I only contend that it is extremely ignorant to make statements that Microsoft doesn't innovate. It is acceptable among like-minded individuals who are equally ignorant, but attempting to convince those who might know more than one side of the coin is foolishness.
Microsoft's biggest innovation is their way of business, which people might disagree with, but it has brought easy-to-use PCs to hundreds of millions of people.
Apple has violated laws, so has Microsoft. Both companies buy smaller companies' projects to absorb their tech and make it their own, like every one of Apple's iApps.
To an extent I'm just pointing out sinewave and bogie's ignorance on the subject. It's quite obvious that they know very little of the non-Mac world. I left holes for them to find but they didn't (anyone with a passing knowledge of NT and OS/2 will know what I'm talking about).
Comments
you listed several things as innovations by MS and asked me why they aren't, please tell me why they are to be considered innovations.
in response to what has Apple innovated:
FireWire IEEE1394 was the first high bandwidth, hot swapable, no ID required, powered, peripheral bus available for everything from digital cameras to hard drives.
[quote]Microsoft has everything to gain from Apple increasing market share.<hr></blockquote>
You realize, of course, that Microsoft "losing" a customer to Apple means that they lose both an Office sale and an OS sale?
I mean, you did think of that, right?
[quote]Unless they are able to come up with some fancy ass new features, which push that gotta have it button, they are going to be selling less and less of the suite.<hr></blockquote>
Ok, if it starts sucking it will sell less. Using that logic you are essentially saying that Office is so widespread now because it doesn't suck.
[quote]No, I'm saying that because of this, Apple has more to gain from writing better software than Microsoft would.<hr></blockquote>
What in God's name does that have to do with anything?
I'll agree, though, since software is what Apple uses to push overpriced hardware out the door.
[quote]Microsoft had NOTHING to do with the price of hardware. If anything, they slowed the sales of computers by failing to release an easy intuative GUI before 1995.<hr></blockquote>
But Apple was alive and well from 1984 - 1995. Why did it take so long for the PC world to take off like it did?
Windows had the ability to run on thousands of different hardware configurations, that is why it got so widespread and that is why so many people were finally able to join in.
sine:
[quote]That's isn't innovation. That is just copying some one else's idea and giving it out to more people.<hr></blockquote>
You mean like Apple did with the Macintosh?
Oh but wait, their thievery was innovative!
[quote]As far as I know MS didn't event the Operating System.<hr></blockquote>
Clarify what this means.
I never said MS invented operating systems, I said they innovated NT. Do you know what NT is?
They built it jointly with IBM. IBM abandoned it so everything post OS/2 3.x is Microsoft's work.
[quote]Formats that are copies of other formats based on a technology they didn't innovate. That isn't innovation.<hr></blockquote>
Copies of what formats? (I genuinely don't know)
[quote]The taskbar is just some one else's innovation that MS redid.<hr></blockquote>
What would that be?
Bogie:
Apple created firewire. That's your submission?
<strong>
You mean like Apple did with the Macintosh?
Oh but wait, their thievery was innovative!
<hr></blockquote></strong>
Ah I am glad you brought this point up. Apple was invited to go over to PARC to take a look at their products. Apple PAYED them to go and see. Apple all ready had their GUI plans on the table. Apple had all ready had their GUI designed. What Apple DIDN'T have is a way to put this in action. Apple payed a lot of money to Xerox for their information. They gave Xerox tons of Apple stock too. Also Apple hired a lot of PARC employees a long the way. See before they went to PARC and saw these things Jeff Raskin was developing a GUI all ready. Where did Jeff work before Apple? Xerox. The Mac OS didn't act or look ANYTHING like the PARC OS. It didn't have folders like we know it.. you couldn't manually resize windows.. there are TONS of differences. MS however took Apple's look and feel and copied it. They even used some of it's code in the first version of Windows and changed it a bit (sound familiar?) MS had full access to the Mac OS and it's code years before it came out. MS was one of Apple's BIGGEST software makers. But little did Steve know that was a BIG mistake. Apple wasn't the one that theived. Apple isn't the one that invented the GUI either.
[quote]<strong>
Clarify what this means.
I never said MS invented operating systems, I said they innovated NT. Do you know what NT is?
They built it jointly with IBM. IBM abandoned it so everything post OS/2 3.x is Microsoft's work.
<hr></blockquote></strong>
And what is NT? It's a OS... as far as I know.. Operating Systems where around before NT. How is NT innovative? Innovation is inventing something new..Operating Systems are not new. Sun did it before MS.. I suggest you read this article
<a href="http://www.osopinion.com/perl/story/13931.html"; target="_blank">http://www.osopinion.com/perl/story/13931.html</a>;
[quote]<strong>Copies of what formats?<hr></blockquote></strong>
You know there where movie and media players out before WMP right? The first one out was.. anyone.. ? QuickTime.. another Apple innovation. Until QuickTime came out.. there was nothing like this. WMP is just a copy of Apple's innovation.
[quote]<strong>What would that be?
<hr></blockquote></strong>
NeXT had a similar taskbar, Actually MS took a lot from NeXT. Actually more so than they took from Apple.
[ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: Sinewave ]</p>
Yes, its not like I have a shortage, but I want to keep you actually answering my questions, which is something you have avoided, you have just been flaming back and forth with Sinewave, thats fine, you both seem to be going at it honestly, whatever.
But yeah, for the moment - one thing that Apple has innovated was FireWire. Please tell me if that is not correct in some way, after we talk about it if there is no contention, I will give you another example.
<a href="http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/A/Apple_Computer.html"; target="_blank">http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/A/Apple_Computer.html</a>;
here is what it is said about MS.
<a href="http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/M/Microsoft.html"; target="_blank">http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/M/Microsoft.html</a>;
Notice the difference.
MS seems to think taking a idea that is all ready though of.. and came up with putting MS's name on it and bundling it with the OS is called innovation.
It's not.
Apple invented firewire, you'll get no dispute from me. Give me something else.
And what questions are those that I'm not answering? Just give me a list and I'll do what I can.
sinewave:
[quote] Apple isn't the one that invented the GUI either.<hr></blockquote>
So no innovation there, great. Glad we agree.
[quote]And what is NT? It's a OS... as far as I know.. Operating Systems where around before NT. How is NT innovative?<hr></blockquote>
When did I say Microsoft invented the idea of an operating system?
They created NT, that was my only point. You can draw it out (to use your stupid-ass term) "bizarro extremes" if you like but that's not what I said.
[quote]Innovation is inventing something new..<hr></blockquote>
Really? That's your definition?
What computer company has innovated anything then?
[quote]You know there where movie and media players out before WMP right?<hr></blockquote>
Quicktime was out before WindowsMedia. . . so? How does that substantiate your claim that WM is a "copy" of something else?
How did Microsoft rip Quicktime off to create WindowsMedia?
[quote]NeXT had a similar taskbar, Actually MS took a lot from NeXT.<hr></blockquote>
NeXT's taskbar setup is very different from Windows'. Please provide a little detail.
[ 12-06-2001: Message edited by: groverat ]</p>
pull down menus, over lapping windows, window "panes," the analogy of a "desktop," files and folders that depict their type by their icon, the trash can metaphor, the concept of the piece of paper desktop layout [most important items are in the upper left and you read left to right, least important/most destructive are in the lower right corner].
I am downloading the original Macintosh Human Interface Guidelines they can be found here:
<a href="http://developer.apple.com/techpubs/mac/HIGuidelines/HIGuidelines-2.html"; target="_blank">http://developer.apple.com/techpubs/mac/HIGuidelines/HIGuidelines-2.html</a>;
None of those items I listed [and many others from the MHIG] were used at Xerox PARC.
They were all Apple creations. I would call that innovation. Please tell me your thoughts.
If you're going to open that up then Windows has a thousand and one little OS developments I could call up. I could easily say Microsoft "innovated" a constantly-visible grouping of running applications and the windows those applications use. They also brought the ease of cut and paste to the filing system. and blah blah blah blah
This could get tiring very quickly.
Second, you asked me to list things, I am. Do you dispute my claim about Apple's OS GUI?
I have a great article explaining why the Windows GUI is bad if you want to read it, it is at:
<a href="http://www.applelust.com/alust/oped/moore_OSX/archives/brian_macness.shtml"; target="_blank">http://www.applelust.com/alust/oped/moore_OSX/archives/brian_macness.shtml</a>;
The link is not for argument, whatever, if you want to think that Windows is a good GUI - well that is BS - but you are entitled. Course you should also look at both the two links [this and the one I posted earlier] because between them it is very obvious that Mac OS was built to be more intuitive at even the most basic levels where Windows was not.
I don't dispute your claim that Apple "innovated" those UI elements, I only assert that if you can count that in your list of Apple innovations then I can count all the things Windows does.
and i believe that Word was something Xerox was working on.
um...
What about PowerPoint,.....could that be from hypercard or something?
MS did innovate/invent Excel.....that i WILL give them.
(Hey i was mentioned on AtAT! wheee )
but i think that Excel was the first REAL or really great spreadsheet app.
could be wrong though....
<strong>When did I say Microsoft invented the idea of an operating system?
They created NT, that was my only point. You can draw it out (to use your stupid-ass term) "bizarro extremes" if you like but that's not what I said.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Let me explain it slowly. MS created a OS called NT. It didn't bring anything NEW to the computer world. It was NOT innovative. Again read this page <a href="http://www.osopinion.com/perl/story/13931.html"; target="_blank">http://www.osopinion.com/perl/story/13931.html</a>;
NT wasn't a innovation.
[quote]<strong>
Really? That's your definition?
What computer company has innovated anything then?
<hr></blockquote></strong>
Lets not take my quotes out of context shall we? I originally said
"Innovation is inventing something new..Operating Systems are not new." to explain to you why NT wasn't innovative. New meaning not came up with before. And indeed their where OS's out before NT.
[quote]<strong>
Quicktime was out before WindowsMedia. . . so? How does that substantiate your claim that WM is a "copy" of something else?
How did Microsoft rip Quicktime off to create WindowsMedia?
<hr></blockquote></strong>
You know innovation takes ideas.. new ideas. Apple was the first to put such a program out. They innovated that product. MS copied that idea with WMP. Again NOT innovation.
[quote]<strong>
NeXT's taskbar setup is very different from Windows'. Please provide a little detail.
<hr></blockquote></strong>
Yeah just like Windows is set up different from the Mac OS. But I wouldn't call Window's GUI innovative
<strong>MS did innovate/invent Excel.....that i WILL give them.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I was waiting on that one. That is ONE thing MS did innovate.
Fireware can't be an innovation since busses and cables were around before it. Excel has a better argument, but even that can't qualify under your definition.
Here's what you are doing, sinewave, and I called it before it started: You are applying a stricter definition of innovation to Microsoft than you are to Apple or basically any other company.
You'll cream all over Apple for their UI (and claim that buying their ideas from Xerox is innovation) while Microsoft doing essentially the same thing (without paying for it) is not innovation.
[quote]Apple was the first to put such a program out.<hr></blockquote>
Apple was the first to release an application that played video? Is that what you're saying?
QT 1.0 was released Dec.1 1991. That was the first computer application to play video, is what you're saying?
Please just say it again, I'll give you another chance to pull your head out.
[quote]But I wouldn't call Window's GUI innovative<hr></blockquote>
Of course you wouldn't, that is the entire point.
Question: Why don't the nine states that haven't agreed to the settlement switch to Apple, linux, unix, etc.?
Quit whining, take action.
I think Groverat is trying to yank your guys' SCSI chains.
Apple is widely accepted as being one of, if not *the* most, innovative companies in the computing industry. If a person needs it spelled out for them with a list of innovations then they clearly need to brush up on their history of computing.
However, here is a short list of "innovations" that Apple has introduced to the world of computing. And Groverat, the reason MS took off like it did has a lot to do with a combination of elements such as bad management at Apple (they tried to catch up on the desktop without properly realizing the importance of the emerging internet), monopolization tactics by MS (proven in *courts* of law in US and EU), and the fact that several companies were selling MS operated PCs and only one (for the most part) were selling Macs.
The list of Apple innovations (technical standards which Apple invented, or worked with another company to improve to the point which made such things a feasible 'standard' in the PC market):
Color - Jobs was bumrushed at the expo where this was first shown
GUI - using tech licensed (not stolen) from Xerox. Improded it. Made it affordable to the masses. (millions sold is masses)
Mouse - considered a toy by the DOS pundits (kinda like the Segway today)
16bit Sound - First to include. Remember the lawsuit by Apple Records?
Quicktime - invented in house.10 years old this month.
SCSI - helped to invent
Floppy disk - helped invent and first to include.
Built in CD-ROM - first to introduce in affordable PC.
Dual monitor support - since waaay back in the day.
Plastic casing - no not the iMac, the Mac Classic. Before this they were metal, awkward and heavy.
All in one w/monitor - saves space eh?
WYSIWYG - only relatively recently has this been on PCs...so so on Win95. Win98+ it got pretty decent for text. Still sucks on Win for color.
All of the above were there even when Mac had 50%+ marketshare.
Newer items, even though marketshare is smaller.
Colorsync
Firewire - duh.
Wireless Networking/AirPort - developed with Lucent. Possible before but difficult and expensive and certainly not widespread.
Desktop Video at the consumer level.
One could even say that including Optical Mice on every computer is somewhat innovative. It certainly helps to drive down the cost of the technology. And no other computer company is doing that still...
That's the short list. I'm sure I forgot some. And I'm sure MS has innovated something. Though exactly what escapes me.
By the way, MS didn't make the PC cheap. That was the ingenious work of the greedy ignoble likes of Michael Dell and his ilk. Figuring out how to use less screws on your PC to make it that much cheaper may be an innovation.
However did you see the RedHerring article clearly defining Dell as the "Anti-Technology" company? Dell innovates in business perhaps, but not technology. And he certainly isn't out to make the world a better place. Well, maybe his world.
That's all I have to add. Argue on if you like.
I only contend that it is extremely ignorant to make statements that Microsoft doesn't innovate. It is acceptable among like-minded individuals who are equally ignorant, but attempting to convince those who might know more than one side of the coin is foolishness.
Microsoft's biggest innovation is their way of business, which people might disagree with, but it has brought easy-to-use PCs to hundreds of millions of people.
Apple has violated laws, so has Microsoft. Both companies buy smaller companies' projects to absorb their tech and make it their own, like every one of Apple's iApps.
To an extent I'm just pointing out sinewave and bogie's ignorance on the subject. It's quite obvious that they know very little of the non-Mac world. I left holes for them to find but they didn't (anyone with a passing knowledge of NT and OS/2 will know what I'm talking about).
[ 12-07-2001: Message edited by: groverat ]</p>