And to some degree their licensing scheme, while found to be illegal, was fairly innovative - in a business sense. It's similar to the way Rockefeller controlled oil and the way Carnegie tried to control the railroads, but it was new to this industry.
There was no way Apple could sell as many computers, as the combined totals of the dozens of companies which sell/sold Windows OS based computers. Fortunately they don't have to to remain successful.
That's one of my biggest gripes with the computing industy. They base everything on marketshare. Just look how many dumb investors jumped on the dot com bandwagon by helping a company gain 'marketshare'. Profits be damned. Of course, the marketshare cost money and the money ran out...
I've got quite a few friends who are quite successful by owning/starting niche business. A restaurant doesn't have to a McDonalds to be successful. So what if you only have one restaurant that makes a cool $500,000 a year? So what if you don't have the marketshare of McDonalds? Dell cannabilizes prices, turns the PC into a commodity then jumps into another tech market (servers now) and tries to do the same thing. This so called business innovation has hurt the tech industry by killing off the true innovators in the field.
Nonetheless, based strictly on the number of computers sold Apple usually comes in around the middle of the top ten. They have a loyal customer base and with the Apple Stores I expect they'll achieve slow and steady growth. Heck, even the concept of the Apple Stores could be considered innovating. Gateway's model was innovative too, just different than Apple's.
Oh, and how could I forget handwriting recognition? The newton was innovative if anything was. Of course, other companies were made similar, cheaper products which took off, became commoditized and are now grasping for profits. Too bad.
<strong>You didn't answer my question, sinewave, what computer company has innovated anything using your definition?<hr></blockquote></strong> Again something new that has never been thought of before.
[quote]<strong>
Fireware can't be an innovation since busses and cables were around before it. Excel has a better argument, but even that can't qualify under your definition.
<hr></blockquote></strong>
Sure it can. Was there anything out like Firewire before Firewire? No. SCSI isn't like Firewire.
[quote]<strong>
Here's what you are doing, sinewave, and I called it before it started: You are applying a stricter definition of innovation to Microsoft than you are to Apple or basically any other company.<hr></blockquote></strong>
No I am not.
[quote]<strong>
You'll cream all over Apple for their UI (and claim that buying their ideas from Xerox is innovation) while Microsoft doing essentially the same thing (without paying for it) is not innovation.<hr></blockquote></strong>
I never claimed Apple innovated the GUI.. as a matter of FACT I claimed otherwise.
<strong> [quote]
Apple was the first to release an application that played video? Is that what you're saying?
QT 1.0 was released Dec.1 1991. That was the first computer application to play video, is what you're saying?
Please just say it again, I'll give you another chance to pull your head out.
<hr></blockquote></strong> Yes let me clarify.. web multimedia. Multimedia on the web.
[quote]<strong>
Of course you wouldn't, that is the entire point.</strong><hr></blockquote>
As no one else would that wasn't a MS apologist. While Apple may have copied the way Xerox implemented the GUI.. it was in NO WAY like the PARC OS. Windows on the other hand hand very similar Mac only traits. Then later on with Win95 NeXT like features.
<strong>I only contend that it is extremely ignorant to make statements that Microsoft doesn't innovate. It is acceptable among like-minded individuals who are equally ignorant, but attempting to convince those who might know more than one side of the coin is foolishness.<hr></blockquote></strong> Cause they DON'T MS doesn't innovate. They just ride the coattails of those who do.
[quote]<strong>
Microsoft's biggest innovation is their way of business, which people might disagree with, but it has brought easy-to-use PCs to hundreds of millions of people.
Apple has violated laws, so has Microsoft. Both companies buy smaller companies' projects to absorb their tech and make it their own, like every one of Apple's iApps.
<hr></blockquote></strong>
Oh of course. But saying that Apple is JUST as evil as MS is would be quite a overstatement.
[quote]<strong>
To an extent I'm just pointing out sinewave and bogie's ignorance on the subject.
<hr></blockquote></strong>
No ignorance here son. Just stating the facts
[quote]<strong>
It's quite obvious that they know very little of the non-Mac world. I left holes for them to find but they didn't (anyone with a passing knowledge of NT and OS/2 will know what I'm talking about).</strong><hr></blockquote>
grover it's quiet obvious you know very little of the innovation world.
Inventor of Rubic Cube = innovator
Person who takes same type of cube with different color stickers = not innovator.
For a company as big as MS you'd think they would be coming out with cool new shit right and left. But they don't.
There is a reason that Apple was known as R&D South for a looooong time over at the MS camp.
Microsoft does a great job of stealing other companies' ideas and making them their own; I think that Apple's problem is that they don't steal enough ideas, themselves.
Some stolen MS ideas:
MS Word - On the Mac first, v.1.0 was a shameless copy of MacWrite
Excel - A response to the wildly popular Lotus 1-2-3 (which had itself shamelessly plundered Visicalc)
Windows - *cough* *cough*
Outlook - Lotus Notes
Access - dBase et al.
Powerpoint - an aquisition, actually
FrontPage - PageMill
Internet Explorer - *cough* *hack* *wheeze*
Bob - Hmmm... an honest to goodness MS innovation!
Windows Media Player - QuickTime
MSN - AOL
MSN Messenger - AOL IM, ICQ
Microsoft Works - ClarisWorks
PocketPC - Newton, PalmPilot
Money - Quicken
That's all I can think of right now. MS has come up with some original stuff, like optical wheel mice and Windows NT. Not wildly original, but like everything else that they do, they are good at taking existing ideas and continually improving on them until they have a worthwhile product.
Comments
Mac Guru
PocketPC OS etc.
Hard Drive in the XBox
And to some degree their licensing scheme, while found to be illegal, was fairly innovative - in a business sense. It's similar to the way Rockefeller controlled oil and the way Carnegie tried to control the railroads, but it was new to this industry.
There was no way Apple could sell as many computers, as the combined totals of the dozens of companies which sell/sold Windows OS based computers. Fortunately they don't have to to remain successful.
That's one of my biggest gripes with the computing industy. They base everything on marketshare. Just look how many dumb investors jumped on the dot com bandwagon by helping a company gain 'marketshare'. Profits be damned. Of course, the marketshare cost money and the money ran out...
I've got quite a few friends who are quite successful by owning/starting niche business. A restaurant doesn't have to a McDonalds to be successful. So what if you only have one restaurant that makes a cool $500,000 a year? So what if you don't have the marketshare of McDonalds? Dell cannabilizes prices, turns the PC into a commodity then jumps into another tech market (servers now) and tries to do the same thing. This so called business innovation has hurt the tech industry by killing off the true innovators in the field.
Nonetheless, based strictly on the number of computers sold Apple usually comes in around the middle of the top ten. They have a loyal customer base and with the Apple Stores I expect they'll achieve slow and steady growth. Heck, even the concept of the Apple Stores could be considered innovating. Gateway's model was innovative too, just different than Apple's.
Oh, and how could I forget handwriting recognition? The newton was innovative if anything was. Of course, other companies were made similar, cheaper products which took off, became commoditized and are now grasping for profits. Too bad.
<strong>You didn't answer my question, sinewave, what computer company has innovated anything using your definition?<hr></blockquote></strong> Again something new that has never been thought of before.
[quote]<strong>
Fireware can't be an innovation since busses and cables were around before it. Excel has a better argument, but even that can't qualify under your definition.
<hr></blockquote></strong>
Sure it can. Was there anything out like Firewire before Firewire? No. SCSI isn't like Firewire.
[quote]<strong>
Here's what you are doing, sinewave, and I called it before it started: You are applying a stricter definition of innovation to Microsoft than you are to Apple or basically any other company.<hr></blockquote></strong>
No I am not.
[quote]<strong>
You'll cream all over Apple for their UI (and claim that buying their ideas from Xerox is innovation) while Microsoft doing essentially the same thing (without paying for it) is not innovation.<hr></blockquote></strong>
I never claimed Apple innovated the GUI.. as a matter of FACT I claimed otherwise.
<strong> [quote]
Apple was the first to release an application that played video? Is that what you're saying?
QT 1.0 was released Dec.1 1991. That was the first computer application to play video, is what you're saying?
Please just say it again, I'll give you another chance to pull your head out.
<hr></blockquote></strong> Yes let me clarify.. web multimedia. Multimedia on the web.
[quote]<strong>
Of course you wouldn't, that is the entire point.</strong><hr></blockquote>
As no one else would that wasn't a MS apologist. While Apple may have copied the way Xerox implemented the GUI.. it was in NO WAY like the PARC OS. Windows on the other hand hand very similar Mac only traits. Then later on with Win95 NeXT like features.
Again nothing new.
[ 12-07-2001: Message edited by: Sinewave ]</p>
Mac Guru
<strong>I only contend that it is extremely ignorant to make statements that Microsoft doesn't innovate. It is acceptable among like-minded individuals who are equally ignorant, but attempting to convince those who might know more than one side of the coin is foolishness.<hr></blockquote></strong> Cause they DON'T MS doesn't innovate. They just ride the coattails of those who do.
[quote]<strong>
Microsoft's biggest innovation is their way of business, which people might disagree with, but it has brought easy-to-use PCs to hundreds of millions of people.
<hr></blockquote></strong>
Anti-Competitive behavior isn't innovative either.
[quote]<strong>
Apple has violated laws, so has Microsoft. Both companies buy smaller companies' projects to absorb their tech and make it their own, like every one of Apple's iApps.
<hr></blockquote></strong>
Oh of course. But saying that Apple is JUST as evil as MS is would be quite a overstatement.
[quote]<strong>
To an extent I'm just pointing out sinewave and bogie's ignorance on the subject.
<hr></blockquote></strong>
No ignorance here son. Just stating the facts
[quote]<strong>
It's quite obvious that they know very little of the non-Mac world. I left holes for them to find but they didn't (anyone with a passing knowledge of NT and OS/2 will know what I'm talking about).</strong><hr></blockquote>
grover it's quiet obvious you know very little of the innovation world.
Inventor of Rubic Cube = innovator
Person who takes same type of cube with different color stickers = not innovator.
For a company as big as MS you'd think they would be coming out with cool new shit right and left. But they don't.
There is a reason that Apple was known as R&D South for a looooong time over at the MS camp.
They bought DVD authoring software from. . . ohh damnit can't remember the name (Wizards is in the name I think).
They bought SoundJam to make iTunes.
Sinewave, more rhetoric, you're tiring.
You say the same thing over and over again, "Microsoft can't innovate. They steal from other people" blah blah blah blah.
Microsoft used to call Apple "R&D South"?
Apple now calls Microsoft "Saviour".
And I'm no PC zealot, I just happen to see (not fully of course, but to some extent) both sides.
Whats shameless is MS ripping off Apples style, at least they could make their own.
'course now Apples doing it too so...
A couple of Microsoft innovations -
PocketPC OS etc.
Hard Drive in the XBox
I hope that this was a joke (wasnt reading throurally though).
If not...
PPCOS is just windows CE with a new name, windows CE is just a scaled down version of Windows, Windows is a rip off of the Mac OS.
As for the hard drive, its nothing original. They took a PC, and hooked it up to a TV.
<strong>Sinewave, more rhetoric, you're tiring.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yeah and your just full of amusements
[quote]<strong>
You say the same thing over and over again,
<hr></blockquote></strong>
pot, kettle...
[quote]<strong>
"Microsoft can't innovate. They steal from other people" blah blah blah blah.
<hr></blockquote></strong>
It's a well known industry fact. For those of use that are not MS apologists.
[quote]<strong>
Microsoft used to call Apple "R&D South"?
Apple now calls Microsoft "Saviour".
<hr></blockquote></strong>
MS hardly saved Apple.
[quote]<strong>
And I'm no PC zealot, I just happen to see (not fully of course, but to some extent) both sides.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You see both sides.. but one side is greatly distorted.
[ 12-08-2001: Message edited by: Sinewave ]</p>
Some stolen MS ideas:
MS Word - On the Mac first, v.1.0 was a shameless copy of MacWrite
Excel - A response to the wildly popular Lotus 1-2-3 (which had itself shamelessly plundered Visicalc)
Windows - *cough* *cough*
Outlook - Lotus Notes
Access - dBase et al.
Powerpoint - an aquisition, actually
FrontPage - PageMill
Internet Explorer - *cough* *hack* *wheeze*
Bob - Hmmm... an honest to goodness MS innovation!
Windows Media Player - QuickTime
MSN - AOL
MSN Messenger - AOL IM, ICQ
Microsoft Works - ClarisWorks
PocketPC - Newton, PalmPilot
Money - Quicken
That's all I can think of right now. MS has come up with some original stuff, like optical wheel mice and Windows NT. Not wildly original, but like everything else that they do, they are good at taking existing ideas and continually improving on them until they have a worthwhile product.
<strong>Bob - Hmmm... an honest to goodness MS innovation!
<hr></blockquote></strong>
Heh I'll give you that one
[quote]<strong>
like optical wheel mice</strong><hr></blockquote>
They actually got that off another company.. and bought the idea.
OK, I am satisfied. With what has been said here.