Are we or are we not discussing out of warranty repairs?
My Ford warranty ran out years ago, why shouldn't they fix my car in the same way people are demanding of Apple?
I bought a new Ford, I bought a new MacBook.
That's life, nothing lasts forever.
You're comparing totally different things, but just to humor you, vehicle manufacturers do issue recalls when there is a known problem. Apple has also initiated repair programs on past models. 2010 had one for the 330m. I think 2009 was another. The reason I don't think they'll do that here is that they typically only extend service for 3 years. Many of those purchases are going past the 3 year mark at this point.
I'll also point out that you decided to exaggerate your timetable and jam in the comment about a new Dell when he said it meant having to buy a new macbook pro.
You're comparing totally different things, but just to humor you, vehicle manufacturers do issue recalls when there is a known problem. Apple has also initiated repair programs on past models. 2010 had one for the 330m. I think 2009 was another. The reason I don't think they'll do that here is that they typically only extend service for 3 years. Many of those purchases are going past the 3 year mark at this point.
I'll also point out that you decided to exaggerate your timetable and jam in the comment about a new Dell when he said it meant having to buy a new macbook pro.
My new Ford has a five year warranty, my MacBook has Apple care so three years.
They are the contracts entered into under relevant consumer laws.
Outside of that I'm on my own, just like I am with my 2008 MacBook and my 2002 Ford.
Why the big sense of entitlement when it comes to Apple?
The guy said his out of warranty experience is forcing him to reconsider Apple as a replacement.
My new Ford has a five year warranty, my MacBook has Apple care so three years.
They are the contracts entered into under relevant consumer laws.
Outside of that I'm on my own, just like I am with my 2008 MacBook and my 2002 Ford.
Why the big sense of entitlement when it comes to Apple?
The guy said his out of warranty experience is forcing him to reconsider Apple as a replacement.
You missed the point about known issues. You wanted to use a car example. I pointed out that it was a bad example as recalls do happen for known issues. Your attempt to make it about warranties is abject nonsense when it comes to such things. Otherwise they wouldn't have issued repair programs in the past for items with a higher than normal rate of failure. Beyond that don't misquote the guy.
This is what he actually said.
Quote:
I'll probably have to go buy a $2k MBP for something that should be fixed by Apple. I'm also losing valuable work time while this is being sorted out. It's incredibly frustrating that Apple is not stepping up and resolving these issues. My confidence in this company is really changing.
If true, I have to say, that in my book, defines a design fault.
It is a soldering issue, specifically with the solder itself. The lead-free stuff just isn't able to flex without cracking unlike the leaded solder, and since GPUs tend to get hotter than CPUs the solder cracks before it does on the CPU. I never use the lead-free crap in any electronics I make, and I've never ended up with a dry joint.
The EU demanded under ROHS (Restriction Of Hazardous Substances) that lead be removed from all electronics around 2006/7, and since then we've had endless GPU issues. The Nvidia 8000 series was the first with issues, then the Nvidia 9000, and it seems AMD are having trouble too as of late. As usual with the EU, they pushed a technology before it was ready; so instead of reducing hazardous waste they actually increased it through all the discarded logic boards/graphics cards that failed from dry solder joints.:no: /rant
My new Ford has a five year warranty, my MacBook has Apple care so three years.
They are the contracts entered into under relevant consumer laws.
Outside of that I'm on my own, just like I am with my 2008 MacBook and my 2002 Ford.
Why the big sense of entitlement when it comes to Apple?
The guy said his out of warranty experience is forcing him to reconsider Apple as a replacement.
My 2000 Toyota was recalled just two years ago, way way past its warranty. Car manufacturers do often make repairs even out of warranty for manufacturer defects (albeit especially -- though not exclusively -- when there's a safety issue). They do it because it was their mistake, and it's good customer service. No company that expects its products to become bricks the day the warranty expires is going to win customer loyalty for long.
(nb. I don't own an affected MBP. I just think you're misrepresenting or misunderstanding corporate behavior in your allegedly analogous case.)
It is not GPU fault.
It is soldering fault.
Over time and temperature GPU lose contact with motherboard.
This is similar to the RROD on the xbox.
I'm not going to blame Apple for it either. The problem with "ultrabook" designs is that there is insufficient surface area for proper cooling. I had the GPU in a non-apple laptop built in 2003 or so finally quit after not being used and being stored for a year, I've had Sony camcorder CCD's do the same. For whatever reason it seems like the TIM (Thermal Interface Material) fails to evenly cool the part, so it develops a hot spot, ultimately causing the solder on the pin side to lose contact. This wouldn't happen if the major thermal parts were socketed, as the socket itself insulates the PCB from the thermal stress. But alas, ultrabook designs are horrible for this reason.
You are better off switching to a tablet and using it as a thin client.
It is a soldering issue, specifically with the solder itself. The lead-free stuff just isn't able to flex without cracking unlike the leaded solder, and since GPUs tend to get hotter than CPUs the solder cracks before it does on the CPU. I never use the lead-free crap in any electronics I make, and I've never ended up with a dry joint.
The EU demanded under ROHS (Restriction Of Hazardous Substances) that lead be removed from all electronics around 2006/7, and since then we've had endless GPU issues. The Nvidia 8000 series was the first with issues, then the Nvidia 9000, and it seems AMD are having trouble too as of late. As usual with the EU, they pushed a technology before it was ready; so instead of reducing hazardous waste they actually increased it through all the discarded logic boards/graphics cards that failed from dry solder joints. /rant
Quote:
Originally Posted by Misa
This is similar to the RROD on the xbox.
I'm not going to blame Apple for it either. The problem with "ultrabook" designs is that there is insufficient surface area for proper cooling. I had the GPU in a non-apple laptop built in 2003 or so finally quit after not being used and being stored for a year, I've had Sony camcorder CCD's do the same. For whatever reason it seems like the TIM (Thermal Interface Material) fails to evenly cool the part, so it develops a hot spot, ultimately causing the solder on the pin side to lose contact. This wouldn't happen if the major thermal parts were socketed, as the socket itself insulates the PCB from the thermal stress. But alas, ultrabook designs are horrible for this reason.
You are better off switching to a tablet and using it as a thin client.
I saw some MacBook Pro coming to life after reballing GPU.
*@Elijahg - I agree. Traditionally governments trying to simply patch negative effect that come from system itself and often they end producing more evil than good. Only way to make things truly better is complete redesign of system but no government can do that. . /rant
I own a 2011 MacBook Pro, and I had the exact same problem that's described here. I wound up having my GPU replaced. Since my laptop is still covered by AppleCare, it wasn't a problem.
I'm having the problem with my laptop - going to genius bar tomorrow.
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My 17" MBP has had occasional system freezes since I bought the thing, always when working on a large number of photos or sometimes in Safari if I come across a video or something Flash-related. A reboot always brings it back. I've had a couple of occasions where I've seen some graphics artifacts, but again a reboot and letting the machine cool off brings things back to normal. Unfortunately, like many of us now, I think my AppleCare has just expired. Let's hope Apple does the right thing here.
Yeah, I know it won't do anything. Also noticed I called Tim Tom--- funny huh? I wouldn't have gotten it wrong if it were Steve Jobs-- just shows how insignificant he has become. Oh well, of course Tim Tom hasn't answered me either... Maybe it was the name thing -- haha!
I had my motherboard replaced after 2 years. It lasted one year.
I had my second motherboard replaced after 3 years: It lasted 2 weeks.
If we assume the motherboards they are using for replacements are old stock, can we not conclude that the deterioration is an on-the shelf ageing problem, and no amount of replacement boards will solve the problem?
Just had similar symptoms of failure with my 2011 MacBook Pro a few weeks ago: 15", i7 2.3 Ghz, AMD 6750M
The Mac would not boot and would stick on the grey loading screen, the only way to boot to desktop was with Safe mode. This pretty much made the mac unusable even for just email or web use never mind graphics and video editing work.
And even worse this was 18 days after the 3yr Apple Careexpired . Tried a clean backup OS system off a external drive same result.
Took my MBP to the Apple Store for a Genius appointment (Hong Kong) first chance I got, the genius I spoke with was very fair and professional and took my MBP to the store workshop to perform some tests (OS, ram etc) and returned saying he was unable to boot the mac at all. A logic board replacement was prescribed at the cost of $4500HKD ... I had by this point presented a slew of reports of the GPU failure in the 2011 model off my iPad (and later the genius admitted seeing more than a unusual amount of this 2011 models coming into the Genius bar).
Fortunately for me the repair fee was discretionarily waived by the manager on account of both the geniuses recommendation and as I had previously taken my mac while still covered by warranty to a Genius bar 6 months earlier and mentioned symptoms that the mac screen was blacking out and shutting down which were unable to be recreated at the time. Some faith in Apple restored!!
Having had my MBP back with a new logic board it seems ok so far, completed some initial CPU intensive processor tests at 100% = 90?/ fans 6000rpm under load of video transcoding but dropping back to a average of 60? and 2000rpm when idling at 5% CPU. Hope this replacement logic board wont fail when out of the 3mth warranty as other have reported. Selling this machine on as a ticking bomb to someone else seems like bad karma ?.
Appleplease acknowledge the flaw in this premium computer and begin a official recall programme.
* Coincidentally I had already been following the infamous MBP2011 Apple Discussions thread as my friend had his MBP2011 die on him in early April, he ended up paying for a logic board replacement in Amsterdam. And another friend who works as a designer just had his company MBP2011 die the same week as mine in London.
Comments
My ten year old Ford broke down, I was late to work I lost money, Ford should replace it.
Enjoy your new Dell or whatever.
Hello Mr. Strawman.
Hello Mr. Strawman.
Are we or are we not discussing out of warranty repairs?
My Ford warranty ran out years ago, why shouldn't they fix my car in the same way people are demanding of Apple?
I bought a new Ford, I bought a new MacBook.
That's life, nothing lasts forever.
Are we or are we not discussing out of warranty repairs?
My Ford warranty ran out years ago, why shouldn't they fix my car in the same way people are demanding of Apple?
I bought a new Ford, I bought a new MacBook.
That's life, nothing lasts forever.
You're comparing totally different things, but just to humor you, vehicle manufacturers do issue recalls when there is a known problem. Apple has also initiated repair programs on past models. 2010 had one for the 330m. I think 2009 was another. The reason I don't think they'll do that here is that they typically only extend service for 3 years. Many of those purchases are going past the 3 year mark at this point.
I'll also point out that you decided to exaggerate your timetable and jam in the comment about a new Dell when he said it meant having to buy a new macbook pro.
My new Ford has a five year warranty, my MacBook has Apple care so three years.
They are the contracts entered into under relevant consumer laws.
Outside of that I'm on my own, just like I am with my 2008 MacBook and my 2002 Ford.
Why the big sense of entitlement when it comes to Apple?
The guy said his out of warranty experience is forcing him to reconsider Apple as a replacement.
My new Ford has a five year warranty, my MacBook has Apple care so three years.
They are the contracts entered into under relevant consumer laws.
Outside of that I'm on my own, just like I am with my 2008 MacBook and my 2002 Ford.
Why the big sense of entitlement when it comes to Apple?
The guy said his out of warranty experience is forcing him to reconsider Apple as a replacement.
You missed the point about known issues. You wanted to use a car example. I pointed out that it was a bad example as recalls do happen for known issues. Your attempt to make it about warranties is abject nonsense when it comes to such things. Otherwise they wouldn't have issued repair programs in the past for items with a higher than normal rate of failure. Beyond that don't misquote the guy.
This is what he actually said.
It is a soldering issue, specifically with the solder itself. The lead-free stuff just isn't able to flex without cracking unlike the leaded solder, and since GPUs tend to get hotter than CPUs the solder cracks before it does on the CPU. I never use the lead-free crap in any electronics I make, and I've never ended up with a dry joint.
The EU demanded under ROHS (Restriction Of Hazardous Substances) that lead be removed from all electronics around 2006/7, and since then we've had endless GPU issues. The Nvidia 8000 series was the first with issues, then the Nvidia 9000, and it seems AMD are having trouble too as of late. As usual with the EU, they pushed a technology before it was ready; so instead of reducing hazardous waste they actually increased it through all the discarded logic boards/graphics cards that failed from dry solder joints.:no: /rant
My new Ford has a five year warranty, my MacBook has Apple care so three years.
They are the contracts entered into under relevant consumer laws.
Outside of that I'm on my own, just like I am with my 2008 MacBook and my 2002 Ford.
Why the big sense of entitlement when it comes to Apple?
The guy said his out of warranty experience is forcing him to reconsider Apple as a replacement.
My 2000 Toyota was recalled just two years ago, way way past its warranty. Car manufacturers do often make repairs even out of warranty for manufacturer defects (albeit especially -- though not exclusively -- when there's a safety issue). They do it because it was their mistake, and it's good customer service. No company that expects its products to become bricks the day the warranty expires is going to win customer loyalty for long.
(nb. I don't own an affected MBP. I just think you're misrepresenting or misunderstanding corporate behavior in your allegedly analogous case.)
This is similar to the RROD on the xbox.
I'm not going to blame Apple for it either. The problem with "ultrabook" designs is that there is insufficient surface area for proper cooling. I had the GPU in a non-apple laptop built in 2003 or so finally quit after not being used and being stored for a year, I've had Sony camcorder CCD's do the same. For whatever reason it seems like the TIM (Thermal Interface Material) fails to evenly cool the part, so it develops a hot spot, ultimately causing the solder on the pin side to lose contact. This wouldn't happen if the major thermal parts were socketed, as the socket itself insulates the PCB from the thermal stress. But alas, ultrabook designs are horrible for this reason.
You are better off switching to a tablet and using it as a thin client.
It is a soldering issue, specifically with the solder itself. The lead-free stuff just isn't able to flex without cracking unlike the leaded solder, and since GPUs tend to get hotter than CPUs the solder cracks before it does on the CPU. I never use the lead-free crap in any electronics I make, and I've never ended up with a dry joint.
The EU demanded under ROHS (Restriction Of Hazardous Substances) that lead be removed from all electronics around 2006/7, and since then we've had endless GPU issues. The Nvidia 8000 series was the first with issues, then the Nvidia 9000, and it seems AMD are having trouble too as of late. As usual with the EU, they pushed a technology before it was ready; so instead of reducing hazardous waste they actually increased it through all the discarded logic boards/graphics cards that failed from dry solder joints.
This is similar to the RROD on the xbox.
I'm not going to blame Apple for it either. The problem with "ultrabook" designs is that there is insufficient surface area for proper cooling. I had the GPU in a non-apple laptop built in 2003 or so finally quit after not being used and being stored for a year, I've had Sony camcorder CCD's do the same. For whatever reason it seems like the TIM (Thermal Interface Material) fails to evenly cool the part, so it develops a hot spot, ultimately causing the solder on the pin side to lose contact. This wouldn't happen if the major thermal parts were socketed, as the socket itself insulates the PCB from the thermal stress. But alas, ultrabook designs are horrible for this reason.
You are better off switching to a tablet and using it as a thin client.
exactly!
lead-free solder* + overheating = problem.
it is not exclusively Apple problem.
http://www.technibble.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22373
I saw some MacBook Pro coming to life after reballing GPU.
*@Elijahg - I agree. Traditionally governments trying to simply patch negative effect that come from system itself and often they end producing more evil than good. Only way to make things truly better is complete redesign of system but no government can do that. .
/rant
We set up a promotion to support the cause and give away some funny prizes for helping spread the word. Check it out, and if you want to contribute prizes, please let us know!
http://sdqk.me/31KHyZDa
Really, Apple--- how long will you deny this DEFECT!!!!!
Except that won’t do anything at all.
TIM COOK NOT TOM COOK.
I had my motherboard replaced after 2 years. It lasted one year.
I had my second motherboard replaced after 3 years: It lasted 2 weeks.
If we assume the motherboards they are using for replacements are old stock, can we not conclude that the deterioration is an on-the shelf ageing problem, and no amount of replacement boards will solve the problem?
http://i.imgur.com/HAbsQzT.jpg
or
http://i.imgur.com/0KhVD8e.jpg
Just had similar symptoms of failure with my 2011 MacBook Pro a few weeks ago: 15", i7 2.3 Ghz, AMD 6750M
The Mac would not boot and would stick on the grey loading screen, the only way to boot to desktop was with Safe mode. This pretty much made the mac unusable even for just email or web use never mind graphics and video editing work.
. Tried a clean backup OS system off a external drive same result.
And even worse this was 18 days after the 3yr Apple Care expired
Took my MBP to the Apple Store for a Genius appointment (Hong Kong) first chance I got, the genius I spoke with was very fair and professional and took my MBP to the store workshop to perform some tests (OS, ram etc) and returned saying he was unable to boot the mac at all. A logic board replacement was prescribed at the cost of $4500HKD ... I had by this point presented a slew of reports of the GPU failure in the 2011 model off my iPad (and later the genius admitted seeing more than a unusual amount of this 2011 models coming into the Genius bar).
Fortunately for me the repair fee was discretionarily waived by the manager on account of both the geniuses recommendation and as I had previously taken my mac while still covered by warranty to a Genius bar 6 months earlier and mentioned symptoms that the mac screen was blacking out and shutting down which were unable to be recreated at the time. Some faith in Apple restored!!
Having had my MBP back with a new logic board it seems ok so far, completed some initial CPU intensive processor tests at 100% = 90?/ fans 6000rpm under load of video transcoding but dropping back to a average of 60? and 2000rpm when idling at 5% CPU. Hope this replacement logic board wont fail when out of the 3mth warranty as other have reported. Selling this machine on as a ticking bomb to someone else seems like bad karma ?.
Apple please acknowledge the flaw in this premium computer and begin a official recall programme.
* Coincidentally I had already been following the infamous MBP2011 Apple Discussions thread as my friend had his MBP2011 die on him in early April, he ended up paying for a logic board replacement in Amsterdam. And another friend who works as a designer just had his company MBP2011 die the same week as mine in London.
