Samsung's chipmaking business posts weak outlook as rumors of Apple shift persist

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  • Reply 21 of 59
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sog35 View Post

    Samsung's collapse will be quick and complete.

     

    That's really premature, even if-when they lose a customer worth billions in annual sales. That's a lot, but it's only in their components division. Samsung will live a long mediocre life, probably much like Microsoft. Less discerning customers will continue buy their products because they think they are marginally less expensive, because they are fooled by a marketing gimmick, or because they just can't be bothered to do any real market research.
  • Reply 22 of 59
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

    I nominate this thread for First Prize in the category of "Most Spelling and Grammar Errors in the History of the English Language." Outstanding work!

     

    I except.
  • Reply 23 of 59
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 33,407member
    <div class="quote-container" data-huddler-embed="/t/181692/samsungs-chipmaking-business-posts-weak-outlook-as-rumors-of-apple-shift-persist#post_2574058" data-huddler-embed-placeholder="false"><span>Quote:</span><div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>SpamSandwich</strong> <a href="/t/181692/samsungs-chipmaking-business-posts-weak-outlook-as-rumors-of-apple-shift-persist#post_2574058"><img src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" class="inlineimg" alt="View Post"/></a><br/><br/>I nominate this thread for First Prize in the category of "Most Spelling and Grammar Errors in the History of the English Language." Outstanding work!</div></div><p> </p>I except.

    Yer poststs r axcepshunnal.
  • Reply 24 of 59
    robin huberrobin huber Posts: 3,585member
    I hate Sammy as much as the next Apple fan, but predictions of its death strike me as premature. They are a huge conglomerate of which the smartphone business is only part. Their other branches can underwrite the phone biz, and/or they can continue as just another minority player. They will live on.

    What I wonder is what will be the next wave in AI computing. When will something completely different replace solid-state/silicon chips? In some lab somewhere is the beginnings of a paradigm shift. Something organic perhaps? A wetware brain capable of growing and structurally adapting to experience. Something that will make silicon look dumb by comparison? I hope Apple is heavily invested in basic research, not just product research.
  • Reply 25 of 59
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by lkrupp View Post

     

     

    This paragraph sums it up quite nicely. Nevertheless, pundits continue to predict doom for Apple.


    Because pundits only see wins and losses... they don't see goals and achievements.

     

     

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by leavingthebigG View Post





    I know several people have already responded to your post. I wanted to add the following links for your review.



    The first link is to an AI article published on March 5, 2014... Rumor: TSMC now building quad-core 'A8' chips for Apple's next-gen iPhone

    http://forums.appleinsider.com/t/162580/rumor-tsmc-now-building-quad-core-a8-chips-for-apples-next-gen-iphone



    The second link is to an AI article published 5 days later on March 10, 2014... Apple to stick with Samsung for A8 chip, final manufacturing prep underway - report

    http://forums.appleinsider.com/t/163257/apple-to-stick-with-samsung-for-a8-chip-final-manufacturing-prep-underway-report



    What I found interesting in the way AI titled the articles. The TSMC article is considered a rumor, while the Samsung article is not.



    Check out the comments in both articles, but pay close attention to the comments in the second article. Those are very telling about people think and feel about the second article.

    either way, when you're at the point when you need 100+million chips a year, considering a newcomer as a 'sole source' is grand fantasy.  Samsung can print out 100Million custom chips in it's sleep.

     

    oh, and you forgot about this musing

     

    http://appleinsider.com/articles/13/06/24/rumor-tsmc-inks-deal-to-build-20nm-a8-chips-for-apple-starting-this-year

     

    which even implicates an Apple Intel Aseries partnership.

     

    In the end,  It's easier to rationalize as fact (not rumor) that Samsung may keep business (incumbent), than TMSC is gaining business (challenger).

    either way, in reading all the articles, it's clear that no place has Apple committed to Samsung as sole source.  That coupled with a down grade of tablet sales, the 'loss' in china, the 'facts' coming out today from Samsung seem obvious... they will be making less custom chips for major players in the coming year... there is more competition, and there for one client, apparently either less demand, or a competitive source.

  • Reply 26 of 59
    Hey Sammy....welcome to the American middle finger. Enjoy it!
  • Reply 27 of 59
    jungmark wrote: »
    Hit these fuckers on all fronts.

    Well said!
  • Reply 28 of 59
    boredumbboredumb Posts: 1,418member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

     
    Originally Posted by TheOtherGeoff View Post

    Apple is in business to make money, and while the ASeries chip is full of great IP, it's not anything that is revolutionary as far as chip logic goes.


     

    Then why do Apple devices perform better than every single other device on the market, regardless of clock speed and RAM?


    Ecosystem?  Vertical integration?  Compatibility of hw/sw design?  The same thing said a fourth way?

  • Reply 29 of 59
    <div class="quote-container" data-huddler-embed="/t/181692/samsungs-chipmaking-business-posts-weak-outlook-as-rumors-of-apple-shift-persist#post_2574058" data-huddler-embed-placeholder="false"><span>Quote:</span><div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>SpamSandwich</strong> <a href="/t/181692/samsungs-chipmaking-business-posts-weak-outlook-as-rumors-of-apple-shift-persist#post_2574058"><img src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" class="inlineimg" alt="View Post"/></a><br/><br/>I nominate this thread for First Prize in the category of "Most Spelling and Grammar Errors in the History of the English Language." Outstanding work!</div></div><p> </p>I except.

    I fecund the nomination.
  • Reply 30 of 59
    Perhaps the decline in their business is not apple but Samsung's mobile division which is struggling at the high end.
  • Reply 31 of 59
    revenantrevenant Posts: 621member

    it will not be a quick death- just does not seem possible.  they make chips and boards for cars, computers and so on. they make heavy machinery, cars, buildings, household appliances and whatnot.

    however, i have recently made a friend from samsung here in Seoul, and whereas he loves the company he thinks that the mobile department is lacking in direction. (i know- 'your friend'. but honest)

    they are getting the pinch (and oddly enough, legal help) from google to not change the os so much. they have tizen, they have really hard working people. but if you have no direction, or willing to fully back a horse, you are betting on air.

  • Reply 32 of 59
    misamisa Posts: 827member
    boredumb wrote: »
    Ecosystem?  Vertical integration?  Compatibility of hw/sw design?  The same thing said a fourth way?

    Apple pretty much doesn't go out of their way to make asinine changes to the product line. Ask anyone who has developed for Android what % of devices their software actually works on. Games made with Unity tend only to work on Android devices with PowerVR GPU cores, which are the same cores used on the iPhone. What does the Samsung device have?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snapdragon_(system_on_chip)#Snapdragon_801 Adreno , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exynos_(system_on_chip) PowerVR, or Mali

    So there is a 33% chance of even the Samsung device actually working at decent performance, otherwise the CPU's on the device have to decompress textures in software, slowing the performance down. As an example, this product http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1087427 , is advertised to enable using all software for the GPU types on the same device.

    Now compare to Apple, which has stuck with the same CPU-compatible and GPU instruction sets from day one. Who else does this? Nintendo (as of GameCube and GameBoy Advance.) This makes it far more attractive for developers as the same techniques can be applied to existing, and future products without having to too much. Compared with Android, you're lucky if even the next version of the OS will run your software.

    I always want to try an Android device, but then "Android on Windows" software like Bluestacks (Emulates a ARM-based Google Nexus) and Genymotion (no ARM emulation) convinces me again that Android is a fractured and horrible platform, and unless you look for a specific model to run the software you want, most of these "cheap" Android devices are rubbish.
  • Reply 33 of 59
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,399member
    Originally Posted by boredumb View Post

    The same thing said a fourth way?

     

    I reject the other three, but this is incontrovertible. :p

  • Reply 34 of 59
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by sog35 View Post

     

    Xiaomi just replaced Samsung as the best selling brand in China.

     

    Samsung's collapse will be quick and complete.


    Very true and not just Xiaomi. Lenovo and OnePlus are growing and will expand beyond China.

     

    Good article on Samsung's problems here.

     

    A Bag of Hurt Heading for Samsung

  • Reply 35 of 59
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Robin Huber View Post



    I hate Sammy as much as the next Apple fan, but predictions of its death strike me as premature. They are a huge conglomerate of which the smartphone business is only part. Their other branches can underwrite the phone biz, and/or they can continue as just another minority player. They will live on.

    you don't understand conglomerates.  Profits go up, never over. 

     

    Smartphone is the largest part of it's largest subsidiary, and it's a free standing corporation (listed on the South Korea Stock Exchange)

     

    Each subsidiary and each division is a P&L center.   Where the board may 'nurture' a division for a while, it won't siphon profits from one to keep another afloat.  And we are talking about Samsung's 2 most profitable units of Samsungs most profitable subsidiary (Samsung Electronics, which homes phones and semiconductors, generates 70% of Samsung Groups revenues ( source ).)  Division leaders who get bonuses from the group aren't wanting to subsidize a laggard, and will be pushing for profitability.

  • Reply 36 of 59
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by ksec View Post

     

     

    Or you mean the A8, which has been rumoured to go back to Samsung's 14nm.


    According to the July 31 transcript, the 14nm process is not expected to ramp to full production until then end of 2015 for external customers. To my mind, Samsung has lost its way. Samsung talks of balancing production of their components based on market conditions and having the flexibility to change what the lines are producing. Samsung does not know where the 14nm production lines will be -- in Korea or Austin? Samsung is reacting to market conditions and competition in the low-mid tier mobile segment, being forced to compete with Chinese companies at the same time trying to compete with Apple in the upper tier. Samsung is not driving the market, but reacting to it. 

     

    What impressed me on reading the transcript is Samsung's top decision makers are quite confused. They really are split between being a foundry and creating finished products for consumers. This split may be necessary given NDAs between the divisions. Wasn't the product side of Samsung surprised by the nature of A7 chip even though Samsung's foundry side was manufacturing it? 

     

    Seems at some level (probably the top), Samsung is being poorly managed. Samsung is an extraordinarily excellent engineering firm -- that's why Apple uses them. Samsung needs to cut the engineering side loose. 

  • Reply 37 of 59

    If TSMC can delivery great chips at great volume and price, then this is the best news ever! Screw Scamsung...

     

    I truly think this type of move is what Steve meant by "thermonuclear war"...not endless litigation.

     

    Make it hurt where it counts-cut Scroogle out of desktop and mobile search and reduce orders from disloyal supply chain partners.

     

    Stupid move, Scammy. And way to go, Tim!

  • Reply 38 of 59
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    No one seems to consider that maybe Apple NEEDs to spread production across two plants / suppliers to meet demand. Think about it folks people it has been rumored that the Samsung plant has been maxed out several times, even after expansion.

    I know several people have already responded to your post. I wanted to add the following links for your review.

    The first link is to an AI article published on March 5, 2014... Rumor: TSMC now building quad-core 'A8' chips for Apple's next-gen iPhone
    http://forums.appleinsider.com/t/162580/rumor-tsmc-now-building-quad-core-a8-chips-for-apples-next-gen-iphone

    The second link is to an AI article published 5 days later on March 10, 2014... Apple to stick with Samsung for A8 chip, final manufacturing prep underway - report
    http://forums.appleinsider.com/t/163257/apple-to-stick-with-samsung-for-a8-chip-final-manufacturing-prep-underway-report

    What I found interesting in the way AI titled the articles. The TSMC article is considered a rumor, while the Samsung article is not.

    Check out the comments in both articles, but pay close attention to the comments in the second article. Those are very telling about people think and feel about the second article.

    For the most part AI publishes nothing more than rumors, we can only guess what will actually happen here.
  • Reply 39 of 59
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

     

     

    Then why do Apple devices perform better than every single other device on the market, regardless of clock speed and RAM?


     

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by boredumb View Post


    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

     

    Then why do Apple devices perform better than every single other device on the market, regardless of clock speed and RAM?


    Ecosystem?  Vertical integration?  Compatibility of hw/sw design?  The same thing said a fourth way?


    less compatibility but 'integrated hw/OS/SW/UI/FunctionalGoal' design.

     

    TS:  an 8000 RPM engine, a great transmission, but no traction, all you do is spin your wheels.  Clock speed means nothing if your bottle neck is data paths (e.g. Apple moving to 64bit... faster data movement of 64bit pointers... not to address more than 2GB), It's the old RISC vs CISC issue.  a fast moving MIPS processor had to have a GREAT compiler lest the pipeline emptied out and you were just processing NOPS.

    (another reason why Swift/ObjC/LLVM is a big deal... Apple is worrying about 'how things compile'... Do you think Samsung is doing compiler development?)

     

    The goal of Android isn't to be a great user experience... the goal of Android is to be an alternative to apple experience

    The goal of Samsung isn't to build a comprehensive online consumer experience centered on iOS and iCloud.

    It's to sell more stuff than last year, by making it 'buyable', cheaper, more attractive than the other guys products and last years products.

    (Attractive: Spec Wars. Screens, colors).

     

    That's the difference in Apple's Business and everyone else's.    Apple defines a usage environment (function... e.g. monitoring heart rate to send to your MD) and then starts with designing the experience.  then the SW to do the experience, and then it looks to see what should be done in the OS, then in the HW, and then makes trade offs based on what each layer can/can't support economically.  and then delivers what it thinks is 'right,' not what 'can sell.'

  • Reply 40 of 59
    dewmedewme Posts: 4,188member
    If you thought that Samsung was a serial copier - you ain't seen nothing yet. China Inc. can copy on a scale that makes Samsung look like rank amateurs. There is no industry and no product on the planet, no matter how complex or how protected with patents and copyrights that China will not copy. We will someday look back and reminisce about the playful way that Samsung coveted everything Apple said, did, and produced. The Chinese copy masters will not be so gentle.
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