Apple Pay nets favorable transaction fees from banks, denied support from Walmart and Best Buy

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  • Reply 81 of 201
    kibitzerkibitzer Posts: 1,114member
    I suspect Walmart's current lack of participation has more to do with the cost and timeframe for implementation than it does with anything else.  It's not like they're going to go belly-up if they don't get on board.  Best Buy might have to worry about that, but not Walmart.  People shop at Walmart for the low prices, not because they have a nifty checkout system.

    Slight correction. They shop there for what they THINK are low prices, because most people are too lazy to compare and are willing to take Walmart at its word. Take the time to compare other store sale circulars with Walmart's for a couple weeks. Get ready for a huge surprise.
  • Reply 82 of 201
    MacProMacPro Posts: 19,697member
    kibitzer wrote: »
    Slight correction. They shop there for what they THINK are low prices, because most people are too lazy to compare and are willing to take Walmart at its word. Take the time to compare other store sale circulars with Walmart's for a couple weeks. Get ready for a huge surprise.

    All stores are the same, caveat emptor as they say. But they have loss leaders too as do all stores, if you need what they are dropping the price on and can resist any impulse buys you win. The 'art of shopping' (which I am perfecting now I'm retired lol) is to plan a trip to stores to get the best deals. That said, I which I could just use Amazon and have the groceries here in an hour ... :)

    p.s. My wife just pointed out my V8 engine's mpg probably negates my whole theory. :\ Though the Amazon wish just becomes more important.
  • Reply 83 of 201
    Quote:



    Originally Posted by radster360 View Post

     

     

    Here is an excerpt from Apple's site - 

     

    "Every time you hand over your credit or debit card to pay, your card number and identity are visible. With Apple Pay, instead of using your actual credit and debit card numbers when you add your card, a unique Device Account Number is assigned, encrypted and securely stored in the Secure Element, a dedicated chip in iPhone. These numbers are never stored on Apple servers. And when you make a purchase, the Device Account Number alongside a transaction-specific dynamic security code is used to process your payment. So your actual credit or debit card numbers are never shared with merchants or transmitted with payment."

     

    So, the DAN is created when you add the credit card to the device and stored securely and not recreated every time. When the payment is made at the register, the DAN is used and not your credit card information, as it would be done when swiping the card. So only the  DAN is transmitted between your phone and the NFC terminal. Your iPhone is not the one who is submitting the payment transaction to the Bank/Credit card company. This is what my understanding is.




     

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by MacMarcus View Post

     

    Yes but my question "alongside a transaction-specific dynamic security code is used to process your payment" --- to generate this DYNAMIC security code, does your iPhone need an Internet connection? Seems pretty clear it will. Hence my post #18 above.

     


     

    If I am understanding radster360 correctly, he is stating that the DAN is not created each time a transaction takes place, which would most likely require an internet connection. No, the unique DAN is created when you add your card to Passbook. And yes you probably need an internet connection then. But not every time you make a purchase. Is the "transaction-specific dynamic security code" is generated by the merchant and paired with the DAN? Or is the phone creating the security code by itself without the need of an internet connection?

     

    In any case, so what? Who has a iPhone without a data plan? What merchant is going to set this up and not have decent cell coverage in the store? I really don't see a problem. 

  • Reply 84 of 201
    You sound like some elitist snob. Wal-mart sells the iPhone and other Apple products, so clearly not everyone who shops there are poor, on welfare, or beneath you as you suggest. This is why some do not like Apple supporters, some come across as pompous. Is Best Buy for the poor also, or just conveniently left them out to make a misguided comment?

    Relax. He is probably talking about tree huggers and various other libtardz who are annoyed at the fact Walmart pays their employees so little they need government handouts to eat as it is so they made the decision not to shop at Walmart. Take NYC for instance... Walmart has been blocked from opening up a store numerous times.
  • Reply 85 of 201
    iaeeniaeen Posts: 588member
    tezgno wrote: »
    In rereading what I stated, I actually stated that wrong. No, a connection isn't required to generate a token as it is stored on the secure element already (when you added the card). What would require the connection is when you go to get the devices authorization to use the token (meaning that lost phone hasn't been invoked). Apple hasn't specified whether their implementation interacts with the banks to cancel the token if lost but, if it works anything like Softcard (which also uses a similar process, Google Wallet is different here), then it would likely cancel on the bank side (which is what I would hope as that is what happens on the Softcard process).

    If it did that, then it would not need any connection at all to work. If it doesn't, then an auth would be needed.

    One thing that I did think of is that their process, unlike Google Wallet, means that when I use Apple Pay, I would get full benefits of my account, including no foreign transaction fees (if it works internationally). With Google Wallet, if it did work internationally (mine doesn't seem to), I would pay fees as the real card that is given to the merchant belongs to Google and would likely have fees that would then be passed on to me.

    At this point we are all guessing, but I have a hard time believing that Apple would go with the system that has an additional point of failure. Especially when the alternative seems more secure anyway.
  • Reply 86 of 201
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Soundvision View Post

     

    Why Wal-Mart and Best Buy aren't going to adopt it is anyone's guess. I don't believe Wal-Mart's registers have NFC, so it would be a large undertaking for them to add it and Wal-Mart is a very frugal company. I hear Best Buy has the hardware but it is turned off, but I wouldn't know.


    My guess is customer tracking.  If they take Apple Pay, they do not have the CC information, address, and name for any transactions, so they cannot slam you with stupid offers all the time.  If you use your CC, they have a history of purchases, and can use that to send you marketing materials.

  • Reply 87 of 201
    calicali Posts: 3,494member
    brb
  • Reply 88 of 201
    kibitzer wrote: »
    Slight correction. They shop there for what they THINK are low prices, because most people are too lazy to compare and are willing to take Walmart at its word. Take the time to compare other store sale circulars with Walmart's for a couple weeks. Get ready for a huge surprise.

    True, Walmart is not always the best price. Between Target, Walmart, Costco and the other "big box" retailers one must constantly stay alert to get the best price.
  • Reply 89 of 201
    You sound like some elitist snob. Wal-mart sells the iPhone and other Apple products, so clearly not everyone who shops there are poor, on welfare, or beneath you as you suggest. This is why some do not like Apple supporters, some come across as pompous. Is Best Buy for the poor also, or just conveniently left them out to make a misguided comment?

    I don't shop at either Walmart nor Best Buy for reasons that have nothing to do with socioeconomic status. Sounds like you have some kind of wealth-esteem issues. Apple products aren't for snobs or the rich. That's an old, worn out tech meme, but it still surfaces now and then in the forums.
  • Reply 90 of 201
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post





     ... I just decided against a new color laser printer I had delivered. When I clicked the return button on Amazon it popped up a window saying that it noticed this was a very heavy item and, if I wished, for only $8 they would arrange for UPS to collect at my front door with all the labels ready. I was really impressed with that! My refund was posted ten minutes after UPS collected the box. Now let me see ... how would all of that played out at Best Buy ....

     

    How would it have played out at Best Buy?  You would walk the printer up to the customer service counter and returned it.  Oh, you would have saved $8 too.

  • Reply 91 of 201
    metalcase wrote: »
    How would it have played out at Best Buy?  You would walk the printer up to the customer service counter and returned it.  Oh, you would have saved $8 too.

    But it was the customer's choice. Eight dollars saves perhaps an hour or two, which could be completely worth it.
  • Reply 92 of 201
    zoetmbzoetmb Posts: 2,652member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mesomorphicman View Post

    You sound like some elitist snob. Wal-mart sells the iPhone and other Apple products, so clearly not everyone who shops there are poor, on welfare, or beneath you as you suggest. This is why some do not like Apple supporters, some come across as pompous. Is Best Buy for the poor also, or just conveniently left them out to make a misguided comment?


    "Not everyone..." absolutely.    But the main attraction of WalMart, except in regions where they've squeezed out all of the local competition so there's no choice but to shop there, is to attract people who are most driven by the perception of very low prices, not the quality of the products.   The reality is somewhat different - I've stopped in a WalMart several times to find that among the (few) products that I would buy, they actually charged more than my local independent retailers and I live in NYC where products are generally quite expensive, largely due to the absurdly high rents that retailers must pay here.    

     

    Frankly, I was surprised when Apple elected to sell their products in WalMart and some other chains like it.    One of the reasons for the creation of the Apple stores was because Jobs was apparently unhappy with how Apple products were displayed and sold in such retailers as the now defunct CompUSA.  So Apple opens these beautiful retail environments, many (outside of malls) with very expensive architecture, glass staircases, etc.    And in NYC, Apple was going to open a location in the prime shopping area of either 14th street or 23rd street (I forget which), but when Jobs visited the area, he thought it was too sleazy.   (They eventually opened a store on 9th avenue and 14th street in the former meat packing district right near the now very hip High Line.)   So 14th or 23rd street was not nice enough, but selling in WalMart is?    I never really understood that from a branding standpoint since Apple, regardless of its overall value, is certainly not known as a low-cost provider.   But from a sales standpoint, it apparently works quite well, although I've always wondered what Jobs thought about selling in WalMart and places like it.      

     

    As far as Best Buy is concerned, I don't think they do any better job displaying and selling Apple products than CompUSA did.   But I think Apple decided that they couldn't open enough stores to not sell in Best Buy.    Last year, it seemed like a moot point because there was a good chance BB wasn't going to survive.   But with management changes, they seem to be doing slightly better.   But again, from a branding standpoint, I think selling Apple's "high-end" products in BB hurts the brand.    Personally, I despise BB.   The stores are ugly and uncomfortable, the sales staff is not knowledgeable and it's simply not a nice experience.    In the stores I've been in, Apple's products are strewn on a small table and usually either password locked or not connected to a network.   That's not selling.   That's simply making a product available to consumers who already know what they want to buy.     

     

    And then there's this:

    http://www.peopleofwalmart.com

  • Reply 93 of 201
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post





    My guess is Best Buy is a moot discussion, I mean how much longer can they last? It is just a showroom now, as you say, it's where to go to see and touch before ordering on Amazon Prime! Although these days most shelves are empty.



    Personally I never really liked Best Buy, too many sneaky sales tactics. I've seen MBPs on the floor stands for sale and only a knowledgeable person would spot they were not the latest models, Canon camera bundles that were the same price as Amazon except the lenses swapped out for a far less capable lens and so on. They always sold by relying on an uneducated buyer whereas Amazon go out of their way to educate, even going as far as to pop up a warning to inform you, when selecting an item, that there is a newer model available and a link. Don't even get me started on how much easier it is to return something to Amazon! Ok I started, myself ... I just decided against a new color laser printer I had delivered. When I clicked the return button on Amazon it popped up a window saying that it noticed this was a very heavy item and, if I wished, for only $8 they would arrange for UPS to collect at my front door with all the labels ready. I was really impressed with that! My refund was posted ten minutes after UPS collected the box. Now let me see ... how would all of that played out at Best Buy ....

    The last time I went to a Best Buy it was to drop off two old 32" or smaller tube TVs (which they will take for free to recycle). Clerks standing around doing nothing, I asked about a cart and the greeter at the front door called for someone over the intercom. No one came. I eventually saw the flat carts myself. Luckily it was me that went to drop them off and not the pregnant wife. She'd probably still be standing there waiting for someone and our son is now three months old.

  • Reply 94 of 201
    Seriously, best buy should accept anything they can, their stores are starting to suck. They stock very little as far as choices of products and push you to order online what you want which then I find cheaper somewhere else. And Walmart... Who cares, I'll shop at Target
  • Reply 95 of 201
    Originally Posted by greenapple3317 View Post

    Seriously, best buy should accept anything they can, their stores are starting to suck.



    Starting? <img class=" src="http://forums-files.appleinsider.com/images/smilies//lol.gif" />

  • Reply 96 of 201
    calicali Posts: 3,494member
    BestBuy is the new Radio Shack and on its way out soon too. I have tried to shop there and found the staff to be rude, unknowledgeable and immature..

    They just assume you're a dumb@** Ironically they're years behind and stupid as sh**!! yet they talk to you like you're some 75 year old tech illiterate granny. Talk to them about tech and they'll look at you like you're stupid. I once went into their showroom asking if they had laser TV displays, "Oh what you mean is L...E...D. laser doesn't exist. What you mean is L....E...Deeeee."
    And that's just one story., nevermind the fact they sell last years Macs at this years prices!!
    misa wrote: »
    Notice that PayPal and Amazon are doing just fine without each other.

    I thought Apple was aiming for the retail POS market not online payments(yet). Am I missing something?
    Google puts all your personal date in the air. They do this partly because they want to paw it over and nose around in your business... such knowledge is money to them as it's salable, With Apple's token system even the retailer won't know who you are...much less what your credit card number might have been. Meanwhile all apple knows is that a transfer took place, they don't have any idea what you bought or who you or the retailer were.

    Tim Cook at the keynote said it well,
    Apple does not know what you bought, Apple is not in the data collection business.

    Oh I almost wished he took a jab at Google but he's too classy.
  • Reply 97 of 201
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Kibitzer View Post





    Slight correction. They shop there for what they THINK are low prices, because most people are too lazy to compare and are willing to take Walmart at its word. Take the time to compare other store sale circulars with Walmart's for a couple weeks. Get ready for a huge surprise.

     

    Well, for me, they are in fact the lowest average pricer in the area for the things I buy on a weekly/monthly basis.  I will absolutely not go out of my way to save $0.50 on a few items when everything else in my cart is at or below the other stores.  My time is worth more than the few dollars I'd save.

     

    Now, for special and high cost purchases, I'll shop around, mostly because Walmart doesn't generally carry the options, brands or models that I want.  For example, electronics and appliances are generally cheaper at Walmart, but they don't generally carry the top of the line models, even if they have the brand I want.  It's absolutely worth my time to shop around to save $50.00 and get exactly what I want.

     

    Other areas may be different, but in my little podunk area outside Louisville, Walmart consistently beats the others within the same distance.

  • Reply 98 of 201
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by iaeen View Post





    At this point we are all guessing, but I have a hard time believing that Apple would go with the system that has an additional point of failure. Especially when the alternative seems more secure anyway.

     

    Yeah, I'd say everyone here is just taking a stab at it. So I might as well too!

     

    When you add a card, to Passbook...

    1. The card is verified with the issuing bank.

    2. *A Device Account Number (DAC) is created for that card and stored in the Secure Element.

     

    When you make a payment...

    1. Hold the device next to the POST terminal...

    2. The NFC chip in the phone senses the terminal and presents the user with the "Touch to Pay" screen.

    3. When TouchID confirms authorization, the DAC along with a dynamically created security code are transmitted to the terminal.

    4. The terminal transmits that info to the bank for payment authorization.

    5. The bank uses the DAC to determine the actual account number.

     

     

    *As Apple says, your credit card information is not stored on the device or on Apple's servers, but there has to be a way the bank can determine which account the DAC is linked to? I'm guessing when the card is originally added to Passbook and is being verified, during that process the DAC is transmitted to the bank and linked to the account. This would explain why the banks are required to partner with Apple. And why ApplePay is considered much more secure than other mobile payment methods.

  • Reply 99 of 201
    Like others have said BustBye is moot ... Walmart will cave before the holidays ...

    But the sweet irony is that Amazon's "one-click" shopping will have to support "one-tap" ApplePay.


    I suspect that just before ApplePay is available for use, Apple will announce, ridiculously inexpensive and simple, iPad POSTS with NFC that will provide ApplePay (and other NFC payments) for the small mom & pop stores / independent merchants ... Everything from a Flea Market, stall at the harvest fair, or driveway sale ...


    By June 2015, the only ones who will know/see my credit card numbers are me, the cc provider and my God.
  • Reply 100 of 201
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mesomorphicman View Post

     

    You sound like some elitist snob. Wal-mart sells the iPhone and other Apple products, so clearly not everyone who shops there are poor, on welfare, or beneath you as you suggest. This is why some do not like Apple supporters, some come across as pompous. Is Best Buy for the poor also, or just conveniently left them out to make a misguided comment?


     

    I have an iPhone and I would never set foot in that godforsaken place called Walmart. You see, it has nothing to do with elitism. It has everything to do with not supporting a corporation that abuses its workers and doesn't pay a living wage. That is why I don't shop at Walmart, and why you shouldn't either. If that makes me elitist in the minds of you and your ilk, then I'm okay with that.

     

    Poor people don't shop at Walmart, they work at Walmart.

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