See my post above why your assumption is wrong. American justice can force any company to disclose your data, including you.
Ah but they'll have to serve me with a warrant meaning they went to a judge and convinced her they had a reasonable basis for the search. Which is tougher than merely cranking out a boilerplate demand from some F.B.I. secretary or N.S.A'ing an online database.
The government can not be trusted! There is so much corruption, incompetence and illegal, unconstitutional behavior taking place, screw them!
It's great that Apple is taking a stand and giving them the middle finger!
Google and the government share the same interests, to collect information about users. They can basically become partners in crime, because their goals are pretty much the same.
Cool system for everybody. In particular, law enforcement needs probable cause to get the information in the first place. Since NSA has had none for the most part, they never had Constitutional authority for any of it.
The NSA doesn't use probable cause since they're a national security agency and are not trying to prosecute people in criminal court like the FBI or local police. They use reasonable suspicion, which is a lower standard but is perfectly legal under the Constitution for search/seizure. Reasonable suspicion does not allow the information collected to be used to prosecute someone in criminal court.
The NSA doesn't use probable cause since they're a national security agency and are not trying to prosecute people in criminal court like the FBI or local police. They use reasonable suspicion, which is a lower standard but is perfectly legal under the Constitution for search/seizure. Reasonable suspicion does not allow the information collected to be used to prosecute someone in criminal court.
Then just what does it allow them to do? Send the secret police to make you disappear?
Basically what I'm hearing is "it's ok, they are operating outside the normal legal process anyway".
The NSA doesn't use probable cause since they're a national security agency and are not trying to prosecute people in criminal court like the FBI or local police. They use reasonable suspicion, which is a lower standard but is perfectly legal under the Constitution for search/seizure. Reasonable suspicion does not allow the information collected to be used to prosecute someone in criminal court.
"They use reasonable suspicion, which is a lower standard but is perfectly legal under the Constitution for search/seizure."
Apple may not have, but equipment from other manufactures may have. There are backdoors into may networking systems which were engineer in for various reason. You all know the government will not be happen about this especially if they want into someone phone who they arrested and want to use the evidence on those phones.
Quote:
"I want to be absolutely clear that we have never worked with any government agency from any country to create a backdoor in any of our products or services," Cook wrote, adding, "We have also never allowed access to our servers. And we never will."
Unfortunately this is true. Although this is a nice extra hurdle that's exactly only what it is. If they want the data they will be able to get it. There are even forensic software packages out there you can buy that allow you to recover data from a locked iOS (or any other OS) device. The idea that data can be secure from government requests is an illusion unfortunately.
But every hurdle helps of course. P.s. this seems more for Apple's own convenience so they aren't continuously asked to bypass the passcode.
I would like to respectfully disagree with this.
Please show me a link to one software recovery company that been able to recover data from a password protected & locked iOS device from iOS 5 onwards - assuming your password isn't 'password' or something. The encryption is too strong for most LEA capabilities.
That being said, I'm not sure if this still applies to multi billion-dollar funded three letter agencies.
When the first-ever Apple transparency report was published in 2013, the company included a note that it had never received any Patriot Act-related information requests from the government.
That's now changed, it seems.
That note about not having received any Patriot Act requests appears to have been something called a "warrant canary," which companies apparently use to indicate when they've received requests that they can't otherwise legally disclose.
When the "canary" disappears, it means the company has received a secret subpoena, Patriot Act request or other clandestine order - and sure enough, Apple's is nowhere to be seen.
sneaky way of informing everyone when they arent allowed to tell anyone
Please show me a link to one software recovery company that been able to recover data from a password protected & locked iOS device from iOS 5 onwards - assuming your password isn't 'password' or something. The encryption is too strong for most LEA capabilities.
That being said, I'm not sure if this still applies to multi billion-dollar funded three letter agencies.
Here's an example: http://www.elcomsoft.com/products.html
And I'm sure intelligence agencies have a lot more powerful tools. I think the saying: "where there's a will there's a way" certainly applies in this case for all operating systems.
Here's an example: http://www.elcomsoft.com/products.html
And I'm sure intelligence agencies have a lot more powerful tools. I think the saying: "where there's a will there's a way" certainly applies in this case for all operating systems.
Hi Chipsy, thanks for the reply.
If you look a little a little deeper in the website you come across this:
(***) iPhone 4S, iPhone 5, iPhone 5C, iPad 2+, iPad Mini and iPod Touch 5th gen support is limited to jailbroken devices only (iOS 5 ... 7). iPhone 5S, iPad Air and iPad Mini 2nd gen are NOT supported at all.
Apple may not be able to decrypt, but that doesn't mean NSA cannot request the encrypted data, and work on decoding themselves. The key, if you will, is the strength of the encryption method. Are there backdoors, even unknown by Apple, which would allow decryption?
There's no need for a back door, as long as the front door is held wide open by the Greetings Guy... also known as... The Judge. You know, the one that signs the warrant, and can pin a "non-disclosure" AKA "gag order" to it?
Here's the relevant passages from Apple's website that let's them off the hook:
What we’re most commonly asked for and how we respond. -- The most common requests we receive for information come from law enforcement in the form of either a Device Request or an Account Request. Our legal team carefully reviews each request, ensuring it is accompanied by valid legal process. All content requests require a search warrant. If we are legally compelled to divulge any information and it is not counterproductive to the facts of the case, we provide notice to the customer when allowed and deliver the narrowest set of information possible in response.
On devices running iOS 8, your personal data such as photos, messages (including attachments), email, contacts, call history, iTunes content, notes, and reminders is placed under the protection of your passcode. Unlike our competitors, Apple cannot bypass your passcode and therefore cannot access this data. So it's not technically feasible for us to respond to government warrants for the extraction of this data from devices in their possession running iOS 8.
iCloud though is another story:
Account Requests -- Responding to an Account Request most often involves providing information about a customer’s iTunes or iCloud account. Only a small fraction of requests from law enforcement seek content such as email, photos, and other content stored on customers’ iCloud or iTunes accounts.
...and:
National Security Orders from the U.S. government. --- A tiny percentage of our millions of accounts is affected by national security-related requests. In the first six months of 2014, we received 250 or fewer of these requests. Though we would like to be more specific, by law this is the most precise information we are currently allowed to disclose.
It's quite obvious that Apple's lawyers have scrutinized these statements down to the letter... because Apple and all of the other big tech companies in America have a gun to their heads... literally.
What would happen if Apple ever disregarded a warrant, as well as a gag order AND went public?
Beyond their ability and oversized financial might in offshore funds to fight the government on this... could there also be a unique opportunity to not only force a change to the laws, but gain a heck of a lot of "street cred" and "back-up" for standing up to the bully, so to speak?
Last Apple quote: We publish all request data permitted by law, but we believe our customers deserve to know more about what their governments and law enforcement agencies are requesting. We are actively engaged with the White House, as well as policymakers and government regulators around the world, to allow for more accurate and complete disclosures and reforms to overreaching surveillance laws and practices.
What if "actively engaged' turned into "public brawl"?
*** I'm thoroughly on Apple's side here(!) Just pointing out what they are up against, and how they're at the moment protecting their butts as legally as they can.
Hi Chipsy, thanks for the reply.
If you look a little a little deeper in the website you come across this:
(***) iPhone 4S, iPhone 5, iPhone 5C, iPad 2+, iPad Mini and iPod Touch 5th gen support is limited to jailbroken devices only (iOS 5 ... 7). iPhone 5S, iPad Air and iPad Mini 2nd gen are NOT supported at all.
So newer devices are OK and don't Jailbreak.
Indeed but remember, this is an example of a software that is available to consumers. I imagine that intelligence agencies have more advanced software for tasks like this. But indeed we can't know for sure if they do have software like this that works for newer models (and not jailbroken). Could just as well be that they don't.
And BTW thank you for your courteous replies.
The government can not be trusted! There is so much corruption, incompetence and illegal, unconstitutional behavior taking place, screw them!
It's great that Apple is taking a stand and giving them the middle finger!
Google and the government share the same interests, to collect information about users. They can basically become partners in crime, because their goals are pretty much the same.
Apple is shaking the boat and very well could be on the legal edge of going off the deep end, and getting the entire executive board thrown in jail and the doors locked.
Forget your gripes against Google... and advocate Apple taking the next big step by dropping the "allowed" statements I outlined in red above... and come right out with it:
We are being held captive by an unlawful search and seizure government entity and court system, using the disguise of national security defense and the war against terrorism to compromise the privacy and natural human right to due diligence, of private citizens the world over.
Now THAT statement would wake up the world... and I'd be the first to hit the streets in their support!
Google isn't your main enemy... your government is. Only they can take away your freedoms... or be forced to give them back to you.
Uh, chill the hell out. I'm sure he was implying "consumer" platform, ie. a platform a normal person would conceivably use. You know, compared to Android/Windows phone devices? If you disagree with his statement, then please, enlighten us as to more secure platforms, instead of mocking him. The point is, if you care about security/privacy, choosing an iPhone as a smartphone is probably a better bet than anything else.
But I thought iPhone is only for smart people, no? lol
Take into account that, if Apple has the capability to reset your password without loss of encrypted backup data, it means that Apple has full access to backup data. Plain and simple.
Tell me how Apple reset you password? I remember I could't recover one of my iTunes account for forgetting password and answers for security questions.
Comments
Yep, you’re a lunatic.
A little disingenuous of Cook since almost all of this data is duplicated in iCloud, that is within the government's reach.
Only at the decision of the user.
See my post above why your assumption is wrong. American justice can force any company to disclose your data, including you.
Ah but they'll have to serve me with a warrant meaning they went to a judge and convinced her they had a reasonable basis for the search. Which is tougher than merely cranking out a boilerplate demand from some F.B.I. secretary or N.S.A'ing an online database.
If you are concerned about backups of your iOS device on iCloud, just keep your backups local to your computer.
^The winner^.
The government can not be trusted! There is so much corruption, incompetence and illegal, unconstitutional behavior taking place, screw them!
It's great that Apple is taking a stand and giving them the middle finger!
Google and the government share the same interests, to collect information about users. They can basically become partners in crime, because their goals are pretty much the same.
Cool system for everybody. In particular, law enforcement needs probable cause to get the information in the first place. Since NSA has had none for the most part, they never had Constitutional authority for any of it.
The NSA doesn't use probable cause since they're a national security agency and are not trying to prosecute people in criminal court like the FBI or local police. They use reasonable suspicion, which is a lower standard but is perfectly legal under the Constitution for search/seizure. Reasonable suspicion does not allow the information collected to be used to prosecute someone in criminal court.
The NSA doesn't use probable cause since they're a national security agency and are not trying to prosecute people in criminal court like the FBI or local police. They use reasonable suspicion, which is a lower standard but is perfectly legal under the Constitution for search/seizure. Reasonable suspicion does not allow the information collected to be used to prosecute someone in criminal court.
Then just what does it allow them to do? Send the secret police to make you disappear?
Basically what I'm hearing is "it's ok, they are operating outside the normal legal process anyway".
"They use reasonable suspicion, which is a lower standard but is perfectly legal under the Constitution for search/seizure."
Where? Where in the Constitution? Be specific.
NO, THEY DON’T. It is legally impossible to have a reasonable suspicion of EVERY PERSON IN THE COUNTRY.
This is a key point Cook is making
Apple may not have, but equipment from other manufactures may have. There are backdoors into may networking systems which were engineer in for various reason. You all know the government will not be happen about this especially if they want into someone phone who they arrested and want to use the evidence on those phones.
Quote:
I would like to respectfully disagree with this.
Please show me a link to one software recovery company that been able to recover data from a password protected & locked iOS device from iOS 5 onwards - assuming your password isn't 'password' or something. The encryption is too strong for most LEA capabilities.
That being said, I'm not sure if this still applies to multi billion-dollar funded three letter agencies.
http://www.techradar.com/news/world-of-tech/apple-has-apparently-received-at-least-one-patriot-act-order-1266146
When the first-ever Apple transparency report was published in 2013, the company included a note that it had never received any Patriot Act-related information requests from the government.
That's now changed, it seems.
That note about not having received any Patriot Act requests appears to have been something called a "warrant canary," which companies apparently use to indicate when they've received requests that they can't otherwise legally disclose.
When the "canary" disappears, it means the company has received a secret subpoena, Patriot Act request or other clandestine order - and sure enough, Apple's is nowhere to be seen.
sneaky way of informing everyone when they arent allowed to tell anyone
Here's an example: http://www.elcomsoft.com/products.html
And I'm sure intelligence agencies have a lot more powerful tools. I think the saying: "where there's a will there's a way" certainly applies in this case for all operating systems.
Hi Chipsy, thanks for the reply.
If you look a little a little deeper in the website you come across this:
(***) iPhone 4S, iPhone 5, iPhone 5C, iPad 2+, iPad Mini and iPod Touch 5th gen support is limited to jailbroken devices only (iOS 5 ... 7). iPhone 5S, iPad Air and iPad Mini 2nd gen are NOT supported at all.
So newer devices are OK and don't Jailbreak.
There's no need for a back door, as long as the front door is held wide open by the Greetings Guy... also known as... The Judge. You know, the one that signs the warrant, and can pin a "non-disclosure" AKA "gag order" to it?
Here's the relevant passages from Apple's website that let's them off the hook:
What we’re most commonly asked for and how we respond. -- The most common requests we receive for information come from law enforcement in the form of either a Device Request or an Account Request. Our legal team carefully reviews each request, ensuring it is accompanied by valid legal process. All content requests require a search warrant. If we are legally compelled to divulge any information and it is not counterproductive to the facts of the case, we provide notice to the customer when allowed and deliver the narrowest set of information possible in response.
On devices running iOS 8, your personal data such as photos, messages (including attachments), email, contacts, call history, iTunes content, notes, and reminders is placed under the protection of your passcode. Unlike our competitors, Apple cannot bypass your passcode and therefore cannot access this data. So it's not technically feasible for us to respond to government warrants for the extraction of this data from devices in their possession running iOS 8.
iCloud though is another story:
Account Requests -- Responding to an Account Request most often involves providing information about a customer’s iTunes or iCloud account. Only a small fraction of requests from law enforcement seek content such as email, photos, and other content stored on customers’ iCloud or iTunes accounts.
...and:
National Security Orders from the U.S. government. --- A tiny percentage of our millions of accounts is affected by national security-related requests. In the first six months of 2014, we received 250 or fewer of these requests. Though we would like to be more specific, by law this is the most precise information we are currently allowed to disclose.
It's quite obvious that Apple's lawyers have scrutinized these statements down to the letter... because Apple and all of the other big tech companies in America have a gun to their heads... literally.
Just ask Yahoo how it feels.
What would happen if Apple ever disregarded a warrant, as well as a gag order AND went public?
Beyond their ability and oversized financial might in offshore funds to fight the government on this... could there also be a unique opportunity to not only force a change to the laws, but gain a heck of a lot of "street cred" and "back-up" for standing up to the bully, so to speak?
Last Apple quote:
We publish all request data permitted by law, but we believe our customers deserve to know more about what their governments and law enforcement agencies are requesting. We are actively engaged with the White House, as well as policymakers and government regulators around the world, to allow for more accurate and complete disclosures and reforms to overreaching surveillance laws and practices.
What if "actively engaged' turned into "public brawl"?
*** I'm thoroughly on Apple's side here(!) Just pointing out what they are up against, and how they're at the moment protecting their butts as legally as they can.
Indeed but remember, this is an example of a software that is available to consumers. I imagine that intelligence agencies have more advanced software for tasks like this. But indeed we can't know for sure if they do have software like this that works for newer models (and not jailbroken). Could just as well be that they don't.
And BTW thank you for your courteous replies.
Apple is shaking the boat and very well could be on the legal edge of going off the deep end, and getting the entire executive board thrown in jail and the doors locked.
Forget your gripes against Google... and advocate Apple taking the next big step by dropping the "allowed" statements I outlined in red above... and come right out with it:
We are being held captive by an unlawful search and seizure government entity and court system, using the disguise of national security defense and the war against terrorism to compromise the privacy and natural human right to due diligence, of private citizens the world over.
Now THAT statement would wake up the world... and I'd be the first to hit the streets in their support!
Google isn't your main enemy... your government is. Only they can take away your freedoms... or be forced to give them back to you.
Cool, iOS 8, the system for terrorists!
But terrorists have to open iTunes account to activate the phone to begin with and that's what they don't want. That's why they prefer android.
Uh, chill the hell out. I'm sure he was implying "consumer" platform, ie. a platform a normal person would conceivably use. You know, compared to Android/Windows phone devices? If you disagree with his statement, then please, enlighten us as to more secure platforms, instead of mocking him. The point is, if you care about security/privacy, choosing an iPhone as a smartphone is probably a better bet than anything else.
But I thought iPhone is only for smart people, no? lol
Take into account that, if Apple has the capability to reset your password without loss of encrypted backup data, it means that Apple has full access to backup data. Plain and simple.
Tell me how Apple reset you password? I remember I could't recover one of my iTunes account for forgetting password and answers for security questions.