Holy crap, thank you. Frankly, I get on here so rarely (though recently there have been some batches like tonight), and I probably haven't looked at the preferences in years.
I’m saying this problem began then and hasn’t been fixed.
The only issues i've seen with this forum are with iOS 8 for getting the cut/copy/paste/define/whatever bubble to appear in the mobile forum. I haven't had issues with the latest Mac OS X Safari version 8.0 (10600.1.25).
Refuse? I've repeatedly stated you have the right to keep Hey Siri and Siri disabled. At what point did I ever say you should be forced to use Siri?
AAAACK! Not me, others in your home. You did catch that whole conversation, right? Or, in the case of other iDevice-hosted apps, wherever you might enable something like that, if it's recording others. If/when you do that you are unwittingly including others into your own, I don't know, Moral Code, for lack of a better name. I really think we're done here, because you seem to think this is okay, and there's not much more to be said.
AAAACK! Not me, others in your home. You did catch that whole conversation, right? Or, in the case of other iDevice-hosted apps, wherever you might enable something like that, if it's recording others. If/when you do that you are unwittingly including others into your own, I don't know, Moral Code, for lack of a better name. I really think we're done here, because you seem to think this is okay, and there's not much more to be said.
Again, there is no reason for me to say, "Hey, I have an iPhone in my pocket listening for the 'Hey Siri' waveform," just as I have had no reason to say, "Hey, I have an iPhone in my pocket that has a microphone I can't be certain isn't enabled by means outside my control."
You have no more control over what happens with all your Internet connected CE with input devices tan you do with Hey Siri enabled or not. Again, it's foolish to think that you're somehow safe with Hey Siri disabled and then not with Hey Siri enabled.
I guess maybe a little more since I lost track of this ^.
Yes, I do. Trust me, I have *complete* control over Every Single Packet that goes in and out of my iDevices. My needs and solution are not for everyone, but I have access to tools that you do not.
All the above notwithstanding, hallelujah for proper post-editing! Another Thank You is in order. But you're only going to get these 2. ;-)
Yes, I do. Trust me, I have *complete* control over Every Single Packet that goes in and out of my iDevices. My needs and solution are not for everyone, but I have access to tools that you do not.
Then you'll know if and when Siri ever listens and send data to Apple that is outside what is expected by the service.
Then you'll know if and when Siri ever listens and send data to Apple that is outside what is expected by the service.
Siri is not currently on any iDevice that I own. Otherwise I could indeed go verify that.
As I said multiple times above though, I don't really expect that Siri does this all the time (though it might, and can easily change at any time without your knowledge or consent), but my bet is that Echo will. Given that Echo presumably (?) works via either wifi or wired ethernet, as opposed to cellular data, then you should be able to easily see if it's true or not. At this point I'm almost hoping that you DO get one of these, just to learn a bit more about them.
Siri is not currently on any iDevice that I own. Otherwise I could indeed go verify that.
As I said multiple times above though, I don't really expect that Siri does this all the time (though it might, and can easily change at any time without your knowledge or consent), but my bet is that Echo will. Given that Echo presumably (?) works via either wifi or wired ethernet, as opposed to cellular data, then you should be able to easily see if it's true or not. At this point I'm almost hoping that you DO get one of these, just to learn a bit more about them.
1) Ah, so that's the crux of the issue: you don't trust Amazon but trust Apple. I don't trust either of them. I think each will do what they feel is best for their bottom line, which means there is no way they will secretly change how they record data the way I don't fear Apple secretly updated iOS to key log everything I do. I even send my diagnostics info back to Apple when they give me the option, so no, I'm not afraid that Hey Siri is somehow going to be some nefarious feature when there are so many other things they could do that I have no fear of.
2) As opposed to cellular data? So does my Mac but I don't think there is anything sinister going on. Echo is specifically to be used in the home so why would they include a cellular chip? And why would that make a difference?
3) Yes, I will getting one and Amazon will be able to spy on all my secret recipes. :gasp:
1) Ah, so that's the crux of the issue: you don't trust Amazon but trust Apple. I don't trust either of them.
Not hardly. You keep mischaracterizing what I say, and I'm not sure why. I don't trust either (any) of them, so I won't give any of them access, or even potential access to data that could be misused. You say you don't trust either of them, and yet your solution seems to be to share with little discretion, and a "Oh they'd never do anything bad!" mindset.
I'm not surprised that the common, uneducated masses think this way (frankly, they don't understand enough to even know what happens behind the scenes), but I am surprised that someone I consider(ed?) a "thinking person" like yourself believes this. You may end up weighing everything using your own personal importance coefficients, and decide that using a device like this without even knowing how it really works, is okay. And while I may disagree, I can understand that. But it's hard for me to believe that you really think the "they'll never do anything bad" is even a remotely valid mindset. More below on this.
I think each will do what they feel is best for their bottom line, which means there is no way they will secretly change how they record data the way I don't fear Apple secretly updated iOS to key log everything I do. I even send my diagnostics info back to Apple when they give me the option, so no, I'm not afraid that Hey Siri is somehow going to be some nefarious feature when there are so many other things they could do that I have no fear of.
Interestingly, you've hit upon one of the huge issues surrounding data privacy. Yes, these companies will more or less act in their own best interest, but there are two problems.
1) Our government absolutely overrides corporate policies.
2) Data lives forever and corporate best interests morph over time.
Perhaps you're not old enough to have a long-term view of this issue, but as corporate management changes (and it always does), attitudes about nearly everything, including data privacy change, and I guarantee that if (no, when) at any moment these companies feel that the value proposition in changing their policies outweighs the risk associated with losing customers, then it's game over. Companies will indeed do whatever they are legally allowed to do to gather, analyze, use/misuse, and disseminate personal data. Monopolies tend to exacerbate this problem, because they know customers won't or can't easily migrate away -- facebook is borderline like this already; they have a customer base that dislikes and distrusts them, but feel captive. Question: would you trust facebook with an always-on microphone in your home? Do you trust them equally as well as Apple or Amazon?
Another issue that can never go away is that even if you trust a corporation in general, they are made up of individual workers, and individual workers also in theory do what is in their own best interest, but the equation breaks down because individuals are even less reliable than organizations. There are so many cases of both willful maliciousness by insiders, and also careless mistakes made by insiders. The real problem is bigger than this conversation, it's centralized data and services in general. It's impossible over time to keep centralized data secure. Just wait to see how bad this is going to get with health-related data given the push right now for more centralization. Our government alone will spend $65 BILLION over the next 5 years on cyber security, and most experts believe it will not be enough. There have been 10s of thousands of breaches in recent years, most of which have not been publicly reported. Here's an article from just today:
You might say: Hey there's nothing secret about my recipes, but that's not all that will end up in that system. And do you honestly think that over time even just your shopping lists won't be valuable to insurance companies, healthcare organizations, fad diet hawkers, etc.? Pushes to get that data are already happening. And do you think amazon will forever keep that data to itself? Individual bits of data and services are like little bits of pollution. On their own they may not seem like much, but in aggregate it's a huge problem, and over time all this data will indeed find its way to aggregation, because there's more commercial value there, and nothing in place to stop it. Long term problems that people can't see (or don't understand), because they only care about short term "benefits". Like being able to say "Hey Alexa, I need milk" instead of writing on the shopping list. Egads.
2) As opposed to cellular data? So does my Mac but I don't think there is anything sinister going on. Echo is specifically to be used in the home so why would they include a cellular chip? And why would that make a difference?
Sigh. Maybe you were just tired last night. I didn't say they were going to use cell data, quite the opposite; I said "Given that the device presumably (?) works via wifi or wired ethernet, as opposed to cellular data, then you should be able to easily see if it's true or not."
If it uses cellular data to communicate, then I presume you don't have any way to monitor that data. That requires specialized, expensive equipment. But assuming it uses either wifi or wired ethernet, you can, at the very least, simply watch data being transmitted to/from the device and have some idea of what triggers that to happen. Regular, scheduled transmissions are very different from actions triggered by something like talking, for example. A once/day ping to the home office to look for software updates is probably fine with most people. A once/minute ping to the home office might be mildly suspicious. Network activity when you say "Alexa" or "Hey Siri" or whatever, is expected. Network activity when you're just having a conversation near the device is not expected. A trivial look at the activity lights on your router could give you an idea of what's happening. Crude, but easy. That's what I hope you can let me know about if/when you get one of these devices.
For $99 dollars I'd definitely give it a shot. I've never "won" anything, so I'm not holding my breath in hopes of being among the lucky few to be initially selected.
I've been using my Amazon Echo for a few days now. It's great! The unboxing is very Apple-esque in the quality of boxing materials and presentation. The setup is easy enough to do with the Amazon Echo app.
I love that you just say the keyword and state your command without having to wait for a tone to let you know it's ready to accept further instruction, and that the voice is also much more soothing and natural than Siri, Cortana, or Google Now's digital voice.
She's much smarter than I would have expected her to be at this point. She seems to understand commands a lot better than my experience with Siri, including being able to hear me say "Alexa [I]blah blah blah"[/I] from across the room with music blaring from the unexpectedly powerful Echo speaker/s(?).
Note that I didn't load any music into my Prime account and I've never bought any music from Amazon's digital store, but you can ask her to play stuff and she'll often do it, and if she can't she'll very often likely play clips from the album. Joking around I asked her to play the soundtrack from [I]Back to the Future[/I], and to my surprise she did.
I don't have any of the Next Day or Same Day Amazon services in my area so this device in my kitchen for adding items to my shopping cart isn't going to be as useful as it will be for those geographically placed individuals, but the Echo app does list those To Do items in an easy way that will probably come in handy the next time I go grocery shopping.
The only issue I've had so far is the default zip code was in another city, in another state, in another time zone. I don't think she can change this with a voice command, but the web interface for Echo was easy enough to make this correction. The app will also show you the commands it thinks you've asked and allow you to offer feedback as to whether it was accurate or not. I wish Siri had this.
Comments
[IMG ALT=""]http://forums.appleinsider.com/content/type/61/id/52196/width/200/height/400[/IMG][/quote]
Holy crap, thank you. Frankly, I get on here so rarely (though recently there have been some batches like tonight), and I probably haven't looked at the preferences in years.
Much better.
I’m saying this problem began then and hasn’t been fixed.
And you can still add HTML code in the BB editor if you wish.
The only issues i've seen with this forum are with iOS 8 for getting the cut/copy/paste/define/whatever bubble to appear in the mobile forum. I haven't had issues with the latest Mac OS X Safari version 8.0 (10600.1.25).
AAAACK! Not me, others in your home. You did catch that whole conversation, right? Or, in the case of other iDevice-hosted apps, wherever you might enable something like that, if it's recording others. If/when you do that you are unwittingly including others into your own, I don't know, Moral Code, for lack of a better name. I really think we're done here, because you seem to think this is okay, and there's not much more to be said.
Oh yeah, saw that immediately, and tried it right away.
If multi- works, I'll be a happy-camper poster again.
Again, there is no reason for me to say, "Hey, I have an iPhone in my pocket listening for the 'Hey Siri' waveform," just as I have had no reason to say, "Hey, I have an iPhone in my pocket that has a microphone I can't be certain isn't enabled by means outside my control."
I guess maybe a little more since I lost track of this ^.
Yes, I do. Trust me, I have *complete* control over Every Single Packet that goes in and out of my iDevices. My needs and solution are not for everyone, but I have access to tools that you do not.
All the above notwithstanding, hallelujah for proper post-editing! Another Thank You is in order. But you're only going to get these 2. ;-)
Then you'll know if and when Siri ever listens and send data to Apple that is outside what is expected by the service.
Siri is not currently on any iDevice that I own. Otherwise I could indeed go verify that.
As I said multiple times above though, I don't really expect that Siri does this all the time (though it might, and can easily change at any time without your knowledge or consent), but my bet is that Echo will. Given that Echo presumably (?) works via either wifi or wired ethernet, as opposed to cellular data, then you should be able to easily see if it's true or not. At this point I'm almost hoping that you DO get one of these, just to learn a bit more about them.
1) Ah, so that's the crux of the issue: you don't trust Amazon but trust Apple. I don't trust either of them. I think each will do what they feel is best for their bottom line, which means there is no way they will secretly change how they record data the way I don't fear Apple secretly updated iOS to key log everything I do. I even send my diagnostics info back to Apple when they give me the option, so no, I'm not afraid that Hey Siri is somehow going to be some nefarious feature when there are so many other things they could do that I have no fear of.
2) As opposed to cellular data? So does my Mac but I don't think there is anything sinister going on. Echo is specifically to be used in the home so why would they include a cellular chip? And why would that make a difference?
3) Yes, I will getting one and Amazon will be able to spy on all my secret recipes. :gasp:
Not hardly. You keep mischaracterizing what I say, and I'm not sure why. I don't trust either (any) of them, so I won't give any of them access, or even potential access to data that could be misused. You say you don't trust either of them, and yet your solution seems to be to share with little discretion, and a "Oh they'd never do anything bad!" mindset.
I'm not surprised that the common, uneducated masses think this way (frankly, they don't understand enough to even know what happens behind the scenes), but I am surprised that someone I consider(ed?) a "thinking person" like yourself believes this. You may end up weighing everything using your own personal importance coefficients, and decide that using a device like this without even knowing how it really works, is okay. And while I may disagree, I can understand that. But it's hard for me to believe that you really think the "they'll never do anything bad" is even a remotely valid mindset. More below on this.
Interestingly, you've hit upon one of the huge issues surrounding data privacy. Yes, these companies will more or less act in their own best interest, but there are two problems.
1) Our government absolutely overrides corporate policies.
2) Data lives forever and corporate best interests morph over time.
Perhaps you're not old enough to have a long-term view of this issue, but as corporate management changes (and it always does), attitudes about nearly everything, including data privacy change, and I guarantee that if (no, when) at any moment these companies feel that the value proposition in changing their policies outweighs the risk associated with losing customers, then it's game over. Companies will indeed do whatever they are legally allowed to do to gather, analyze, use/misuse, and disseminate personal data. Monopolies tend to exacerbate this problem, because they know customers won't or can't easily migrate away -- facebook is borderline like this already; they have a customer base that dislikes and distrusts them, but feel captive. Question: would you trust facebook with an always-on microphone in your home? Do you trust them equally as well as Apple or Amazon?
Another issue that can never go away is that even if you trust a corporation in general, they are made up of individual workers, and individual workers also in theory do what is in their own best interest, but the equation breaks down because individuals are even less reliable than organizations. There are so many cases of both willful maliciousness by insiders, and also careless mistakes made by insiders. The real problem is bigger than this conversation, it's centralized data and services in general. It's impossible over time to keep centralized data secure. Just wait to see how bad this is going to get with health-related data given the push right now for more centralization. Our government alone will spend $65 BILLION over the next 5 years on cyber security, and most experts believe it will not be enough. There have been 10s of thousands of breaches in recent years, most of which have not been publicly reported. Here's an article from just today:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/federal-government-struggles-against-cyberattacks/2014/11/06/ebe4f7f2-6616-11e4-ab86-46000e1d0035_story.html
You might say: Hey there's nothing secret about my recipes, but that's not all that will end up in that system. And do you honestly think that over time even just your shopping lists won't be valuable to insurance companies, healthcare organizations, fad diet hawkers, etc.? Pushes to get that data are already happening. And do you think amazon will forever keep that data to itself? Individual bits of data and services are like little bits of pollution. On their own they may not seem like much, but in aggregate it's a huge problem, and over time all this data will indeed find its way to aggregation, because there's more commercial value there, and nothing in place to stop it. Long term problems that people can't see (or don't understand), because they only care about short term "benefits". Like being able to say "Hey Alexa, I need milk" instead of writing on the shopping list. Egads.
Sigh. Maybe you were just tired last night. I didn't say they were going to use cell data, quite the opposite; I said "Given that the device presumably (?) works via wifi or wired ethernet, as opposed to cellular data, then you should be able to easily see if it's true or not."
If it uses cellular data to communicate, then I presume you don't have any way to monitor that data. That requires specialized, expensive equipment. But assuming it uses either wifi or wired ethernet, you can, at the very least, simply watch data being transmitted to/from the device and have some idea of what triggers that to happen. Regular, scheduled transmissions are very different from actions triggered by something like talking, for example. A once/day ping to the home office to look for software updates is probably fine with most people. A once/minute ping to the home office might be mildly suspicious. Network activity when you say "Alexa" or "Hey Siri" or whatever, is expected. Network activity when you're just having a conversation near the device is not expected. A trivial look at the activity lights on your router could give you an idea of what's happening. Crude, but easy. That's what I hope you can let me know about if/when you get one of these devices.
Did you accidentally give Eric Schmidt your AI login credentials?! Cause if you're not doing anything wrong... oh wait.
I love that you just say the keyword and state your command without having to wait for a tone to let you know it's ready to accept further instruction, and that the voice is also much more soothing and natural than Siri, Cortana, or Google Now's digital voice.
She's much smarter than I would have expected her to be at this point. She seems to understand commands a lot better than my experience with Siri, including being able to hear me say "Alexa [I]blah blah blah"[/I] from across the room with music blaring from the unexpectedly powerful Echo speaker/s(?).
Note that I didn't load any music into my Prime account and I've never bought any music from Amazon's digital store, but you can ask her to play stuff and she'll often do it, and if she can't she'll very often likely play clips from the album. Joking around I asked her to play the soundtrack from [I]Back to the Future[/I], and to my surprise she did.
I don't have any of the Next Day or Same Day Amazon services in my area so this device in my kitchen for adding items to my shopping cart isn't going to be as useful as it will be for those geographically placed individuals, but the Echo app does list those To Do items in an easy way that will probably come in handy the next time I go grocery shopping.
The only issue I've had so far is the default zip code was in another city, in another state, in another time zone. I don't think she can change this with a voice command, but the web interface for Echo was easy enough to make this correction. The app will also show you the commands it thinks you've asked and allow you to offer feedback as to whether it was accurate or not. I wish Siri had this.
For $99 I'm getting a kick out of it.