For someone who "honestly doesn't care" you sure do write a lot on the subject. Over and over and over.
Face it, Nvidia LIED when they promoted the Denver K1. It's only marginally faster than older 32bit ARM architectures clock vs clock, and is behind ALL of Apple's 64bit processors clock vs clock.
I keep writing over and over because you keep saying that every chip out there is garbage, over and over. It's simply not true, you've lost your awe, your bewilderness, if such a term existed, this technology is wondrous, regardless of who is faster. You look at the A8 and deemed it king of all kings. That's great and all but that chip is only available in one product. Do you expect others just to give up, it's hopeless Apple will always be better than us, might as well turn in our pocket protectors. Have you actually seen the code that's out their for the K1, even played with a device that contained this chip. Not just the K1 but any of these chips that you keep calling garbage. My Nokia 2520 with a Qualcomm 800 is fantastic, never once have I thought to myself, man this thing is slow, my Kindle HDX also with it's Qualcomm 800 is one of the most lag free gizmos I have ever owned. Your idea of a good chip is if it beats the Apple A8x, everything else is pure carp. Why, because there not at 64Bit. This article is full of carp, it's states that Qualcomm and Samsung have been scrambling to get a viable 64Bit chip to market. Not true, both of these companies after Nvidia released their timetable stated as far back as 2011 that 2015 would be the year that they would start releasing their next gen 64Bit chips. Any article about malfunctions are problems is just conjecture at this point, let's a actually wait a month or so to see if they deliver.
I'm not downplaying Apple's achievements either, I just can't stand reading these silly comments about how bad the competition's chips are when the majority of users here can't even fathom just how much computing or even know what to do with the computing power that's in an A6, let alone an A8x. However it's so important that some arbitrary benchmark beats the rest. I only use these benchMarks to try to show that these chips aren't bad. If you would see just a quarter of the things I'm doing with my K1 devices not only would you be a convert but you would probably want to join in on the fun. My Lenovo 4K touch monitor has an Nvidia K1, I've never seen a faster dumb terminal slash multimedia hub, my now two Jetson K1 development boards, from just being good desktop computers to a node in a render cluster, all completely wondrous. I'll keep having the time of my life rediscovering the great things about computer technology over and over again and you can keep shaking your finger at others calling them crap. Both are happy.
Bingo. Developers of Mac 64bit software are finding it easier to port that code over to iOS.
Android completely lacks this. There's no "parent" OS that has a long history of development and huge software base to draw from like you get with Windows or Mac. And before someone pipes up and says Androids parent is Linux, sorry, no. Android is a stripped down version of Linux that is completely incapable of running actual Linux software.
Android's parents is Java. Moving from desktop java apps to Android isn't that hard.
When you adjust the processor for a baseline clock speed of 1.0GHz, the Denver K1 is even slower than the A7. Now some people claim you can't compare clock speeds, but you can since we're talking about the same architecture (ARMv8 vs ARMv8). Where you CAN'T compare clock speeds is looking at something like x86 vs ARM.
So you can compare clock speeds of an intel x86 Atom CPU with an Intel x86 Core CPU with an Intel x86 Celeron CPU?
Interesting.
Adjusting for baseline clock speeds is no more valid for comparing the K1 with the A8 than it is for comparing "same architecture" x86 CPUs. The designs are different and emphasize different aspects.
Quote:
But the most telling aspect of this is that it's Nvidia themselves who brought up the clock speed argument when they hyped the K1 prior to launch. THEY'RE the ones bragging about how clock vs clock the K1 is more efficient and faster than other ARM designs. I'm only using Nvidias own argument against them.
Mmm...I think they meant non-Apple designs. Ie vs Snapdragon. They are not competing for design wins vs Apple's chips.
Quote:
In the end the K1 gets its performance from a MUCH higher clock speed than the A7/8/8X, not through their LIES of claiming their architecture is faster clock vs clock.
The nVidia propaganda I read indicated that it had the high performance vs other competing ARMv8s due to larger L1/L2 caches, 7 wide decode and OOE (aka Dynamic Code. Optimizer). And yes, higher clock speed too. That is a design advantage as well.
Both the A8/A8X and K1 are excellent performing ARM chips.
So by the time Android sees a 64-bit chip Apple will be releasing it's 3rd generation processor, the A9. I'm going to assume it'll also be a triple core because the new iPad Airs are Triple. Seems pretty logical. I think Apple will hold off on Quad Core. It's just eats more power. How laughable of Android. It really does look bad. Apple 1 company, making it's own Custom 64-bit ARM chip and where's anyone else??? Now even Samscum who make their own Chips and yet make Apples!!! It's really pretty funny.
The problem, as I see it, is that a company has to have a pretty aggressive multi-year plan to move the product ahead if it's going to compete with Apple. Android assemblers are fettered by having to rely on Google for OS design and Qualcomm for chip design. If any one of the three is a laggard then the whole bunch wall trail behind Apple. In addition, at any time Apple can disrupt everyone's plans by introducing a new element, such as they did with Metal, Swift, Finger print ID, 64-bit CPU... So, while everyone is focusing on meeting their quartly numbers, Apple is focusing on mile posts of a multi-year plan.
I'd really like to see Apple put these processors to work with a special app that does something no other phone can, that isn't a gimmick, and that suddenly no one can live without.
Otherwise, it's like every iPhone out there is still just being used to do the same crap every other phone can do: email, twitter, FB, etc.
The nVidia propaganda I read indicated that it had the high performance vs other competing ARMv8s due to larger L1/L2 caches, 7 wide decode and OOE (aka Dynamic Code. Optimizer). <span style="line-height:1.4em;">And yes, higher clock speed too. That is a design advantage as well.</span>
Both the A8/A8X and K1 are excellent performing ARM chips.
What you are referring to is peak performance of the chips. Where Apple excels by a wide margin is that the A8/X can sustain it's maximum performance continuously while the K1 will need to be quickly dialed back due to heat issues within the confines of a phone package.
Apple has done several things with their iOS to keep the A8/X running continuously at or near its peak performance within the confines of an iPhone package. Once again, having control over the HW and SW trumps being merely an assembler of off-the-shelf HW and SW. The latter is how it was done with PC boxes. But this time around Apple is in control and driving the paradigm differently then Google or the assemblers anticipated. This time it's not about the base numbers like the clock speed, or cores... nor do those numbers even trump battery life... it's the total user experience.
Samsung are reaping the fruits of their theft. They were years behind Apple and once Apple showed everybody the way forward Samsung could have used their considerable resources to build technology for the future, instead they used what was available and spent their resources on marketing, copying, outright theft, obfuscating court cases and flooding the market with crap. Now they will never be able to catch up. By the time they've caught up to A8x Apple will be on A9 and pull away even faster on the back of higher profits that allow better R and D. They gambled and lost.
I'd really like to see Apple put these processors to work with a special app that does something no other phone can, that isn't a gimmick, and that suddenly no one can live without.
Otherwise, it's like every iPhone out there is still just being used to do the same crap every other phone can do: email, twitter, FB, etc.
I think what you are asking for is been in the process of happening since about 2009 04 2010, and has accelerated in the last year or so. Part of the earlier effort has been in fine-tuning the iOS and SoC. This year Apple has upped the stakes with tighter integration between computer, phone, tablet and cloud. But Apple is really standing out with their advances in security; most notably with Finger-print ID and Apple Pay. Apple has also put in place some game-changing software-enabling pieces: Swift and Metal.
Once developers hit their stride with these new tools, you will see the Apple iDevices start doing some things way beyond their pay grade.
What you are referring to is peak performance of the chips. Where Apple excels by a wide margin is that the A8/X can sustain it's maximum performance continuously while the K1 will need to be quickly dialed back due to heat issues within the confines of a phone package.
The K1 is not designed for a phone but tablets. A fairly beefy ones at that. And Chromebooks.
Quote:
This time it's not about the base numbers like the clock speed, or cores... nor do those numbers even trump battery life... it's the total user experience.
Total performance of the package tends to lead to impacts on total user experience.
Both are powerful chips that provide a good user experience. This is not a controversial statement.
The K1 performs well and has advantages in gaming with dx12 and UE4 support. The A8X performs well and has advantages in gaming with Metal.
GeekBench is not useful for benchmarking for a few reasons:
• It relies on some specific code snippets which are optimised differently for different platforms.
• It's strictly about general purpose processing, e.g. many of the real world speed gains come from platform-specific extensions
• It does not measure sustained performance, A8 in benchmarking is no faster than long-term A8 use. While speed/power requirements force other chipsets to throttle as much as 30-50% of their performance.
If you're looking for real world benchmarks you should look at the amalgamated result: There are now many benchmarks which show the latest devices with the same apps, taking each through an ASAP testing routine. From there you can see load time and operation times in real world scenarios.
This is how you can truly evaluate the end performance, not tiny slithers of Mandelbrot/FFT/GEMM code. If those are all that mattered, we'd all design chips that did those at high speed.
Further companies like Samsung have the chips over clock themselves when they recognize benchmarking software, which is not indicative of real world performance. Apple does not use this farce.
The K1 is not designed for a phone but tablets. A fairly beefy ones at that. And Chromebooks.
Total performance of the package tends to lead to impacts on total user experience.
Both are powerful chips that provide a good user experience. This is not a controversial statement.
The K1 performs well and has advantages in gaming with dx12 and UE4 support. The A8X performs well and has advantages in gaming with Metal.
Outside benchmarks (real world instruction mix) and used for a while, it seems the A8X in fact is the better performer on tablets and at a much much lower clock. If the A8X is in fact clocked higher in an Ipad Pro, we'd see just how much juice there is left in the A8X, I'm betting quite a bit.
As for DX12 support, NVDIA being mainly a PC GPU company, it is not surprising they'd already have done the software devellopment for this. When IOS comes up as a major gaming platform within the next 2 years; this unique advantage will fade.
Android's parents is Java. Moving from desktop java apps to Android isn't that hard.
Wow, did you actually just say that? How utterly ridiculous. You might as well have said that since the Android NDK uses C/C++ and most software is written in C/C++, that it's possible to take any piece of software and easily port it to Android. This is simply not the case.
Both Apple and Microsoft have made significant changes to their development environments to make it easy to port code over from their desktop software to mobile. This requires far more than just using a common language.
Besides, none of the truly useful desktop software is written in Java. They will almost all be written in C/C++. The people who use Java are those who need to crank out quick versions of software (for example, within an organization) or software that doesn't require high performance. You won't see Photoshop in Java, for example. Or popular browsers like Chrome.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht
The nVidia propaganda I read indicated that it had the high performance vs other competing ARMv8s due to larger L1/L2 caches, 7 wide decode and OOE (aka Dynamic Code. Optimizer). And yes, higher clock speed too. That is a design advantage as well.
Both the A8/A8X and K1 are excellent performing ARM chips.
If you had a 6 cylinder 3.0 litre engine that produces 500HP and a 10 cylinder 8.0 litre engine that also produces 500HP, which one would you consider as being technically more advanced? Sure they both produce the same HP, but one uses brute force while the other uses advanced engineering. I'd say a much larger engine that produces the same amount of HP is a piece of crap.
The K1, Snapdragons and Exynos are crap because they use the brute force method. The A7/8/8X are superior because they use advanced technology to get their results.
Or a better way to look at it: You can't make a racehorse out of a pig, but you can still have a pretty fast pig.
I'm sure you'd find a sympathetic ear in forums that share your enthusiasm for these competing products.
I honestly don't understand all the windmill-tilting you put yourself through here.
Why is what he said bad, why did you feel it necessary to belittle him. He probably read this somewhere and decided to share it. You could have politely replied to him. You strike me as a person who just reads and reads every bit of tech highlights they can get their hands on without actually getting their hands dirty, talking instead of doing. Java is one of the most used in house programming languages for businesses there is. Entire infrastructures are built upon it, a lot more than compiled code.
Car analogies are silly but can you honestly tell me you wouldn't rather have a V10 over a V8. That 3.0 liter V8 would also be at it's max limit to what is possible, where as the V10 could be pushed to uncharted new hights. I would also choose the engine that I can work on myself instead of outsourcing it to a garage. I'm also limited to a single platform using the A8, where as the K1 is opened to a lot more. Not saying one is better than the other, they both have their purposes and do them well, calling one lesser than the other though is just silly fanboyism crap. The K1 is a very advanced chip, there is nothing else like it on the market right now. Brute force, what does that even me, the K1 is running at it's optimal speed and thermal usage. Nvidia didn't over clock the chip or push it, which by the way you can do, almost 300Mhz past it's shipping spec'ed clock speed before you start to seeing glitches. Including the GPU by 150Mhz.
Spend just a week with a Jetson K1 development board and I guarantee that you will be singing a different tune. You won't though and I'm sure even if you had one you wouldn't know what to do with it. You spew your copied and pasted snippets from tech b!ogs and declare it as gossiple without every actually using the technology you so passionatly hate. The things you can do with this technology is mind blowing, there is 192 CUDA cores in the K1 that's as fast as a GeForce 8800GT. With open libraries and code available to manipulate that power to your hearts content. You don't find that amazing, oh, I forgot, it's not as fast as the Apple A8 or as conservative with it's power consumptipn. I see a super computer and you just another piece of tech that doesn't live up to your expectations, which amount to nothing.
Comments
I keep writing over and over because you keep saying that every chip out there is garbage, over and over. It's simply not true, you've lost your awe, your bewilderness, if such a term existed, this technology is wondrous, regardless of who is faster. You look at the A8 and deemed it king of all kings. That's great and all but that chip is only available in one product. Do you expect others just to give up, it's hopeless Apple will always be better than us, might as well turn in our pocket protectors. Have you actually seen the code that's out their for the K1, even played with a device that contained this chip. Not just the K1 but any of these chips that you keep calling garbage. My Nokia 2520 with a Qualcomm 800 is fantastic, never once have I thought to myself, man this thing is slow, my Kindle HDX also with it's Qualcomm 800 is one of the most lag free gizmos I have ever owned. Your idea of a good chip is if it beats the Apple A8x, everything else is pure carp. Why, because there not at 64Bit. This article is full of carp, it's states that Qualcomm and Samsung have been scrambling to get a viable 64Bit chip to market. Not true, both of these companies after Nvidia released their timetable stated as far back as 2011 that 2015 would be the year that they would start releasing their next gen 64Bit chips. Any article about malfunctions are problems is just conjecture at this point, let's a actually wait a month or so to see if they deliver.
I'm not downplaying Apple's achievements either, I just can't stand reading these silly comments about how bad the competition's chips are when the majority of users here can't even fathom just how much computing or even know what to do with the computing power that's in an A6, let alone an A8x. However it's so important that some arbitrary benchmark beats the rest. I only use these benchMarks to try to show that these chips aren't bad. If you would see just a quarter of the things I'm doing with my K1 devices not only would you be a convert but you would probably want to join in on the fun. My Lenovo 4K touch monitor has an Nvidia K1, I've never seen a faster dumb terminal slash multimedia hub, my now two Jetson K1 development boards, from just being good desktop computers to a node in a render cluster, all completely wondrous. I'll keep having the time of my life rediscovering the great things about computer technology over and over again and you can keep shaking your finger at others calling them crap. Both are happy.
I keep writing over and over
My Nokia 2520
my Kindle HDX
My Lenovo 4K touch monitor
my now two Jetson K1 development boards
I'm sure you'd find a sympathetic ear in forums that share your enthusiasm for these competing products.
I honestly don't understand all the windmill-tilting you put yourself through here.
Bingo. Developers of Mac 64bit software are finding it easier to port that code over to iOS.
Android completely lacks this. There's no "parent" OS that has a long history of development and huge software base to draw from like you get with Windows or Mac. And before someone pipes up and says Androids parent is Linux, sorry, no. Android is a stripped down version of Linux that is completely incapable of running actual Linux software.
Android's parents is Java. Moving from desktop java apps to Android isn't that hard.
When you adjust the processor for a baseline clock speed of 1.0GHz, the Denver K1 is even slower than the A7. Now some people claim you can't compare clock speeds, but you can since we're talking about the same architecture (ARMv8 vs ARMv8). Where you CAN'T compare clock speeds is looking at something like x86 vs ARM.
So you can compare clock speeds of an intel x86 Atom CPU with an Intel x86 Core CPU with an Intel x86 Celeron CPU?
Interesting.
Adjusting for baseline clock speeds is no more valid for comparing the K1 with the A8 than it is for comparing "same architecture" x86 CPUs. The designs are different and emphasize different aspects.
Mmm...I think they meant non-Apple designs. Ie vs Snapdragon. They are not competing for design wins vs Apple's chips.
The nVidia propaganda I read indicated that it had the high performance vs other competing ARMv8s due to larger L1/L2 caches, 7 wide decode and OOE (aka Dynamic Code. Optimizer). And yes, higher clock speed too. That is a design advantage as well.
Both the A8/A8X and K1 are excellent performing ARM chips.
The problem, as I see it, is that a company has to have a pretty aggressive multi-year plan to move the product ahead if it's going to compete with Apple. Android assemblers are fettered by having to rely on Google for OS design and Qualcomm for chip design. If any one of the three is a laggard then the whole bunch wall trail behind Apple. In addition, at any time Apple can disrupt everyone's plans by introducing a new element, such as they did with Metal, Swift, Finger print ID, 64-bit CPU... So, while everyone is focusing on meeting their quartly numbers, Apple is focusing on mile posts of a multi-year plan.
I'd really like to see Apple put these processors to work with a special app that does something no other phone can, that isn't a gimmick, and that suddenly no one can live without.
Otherwise, it's like every iPhone out there is still just being used to do the same crap every other phone can do: email, twitter, FB, etc.
What you are referring to is peak performance of the chips. Where Apple excels by a wide margin is that the A8/X can sustain it's maximum performance continuously while the K1 will need to be quickly dialed back due to heat issues within the confines of a phone package.
Apple has done several things with their iOS to keep the A8/X running continuously at or near its peak performance within the confines of an iPhone package. Once again, having control over the HW and SW trumps being merely an assembler of off-the-shelf HW and SW. The latter is how it was done with PC boxes. But this time around Apple is in control and driving the paradigm differently then Google or the assemblers anticipated. This time it's not about the base numbers like the clock speed, or cores... nor do those numbers even trump battery life... it's the total user experience.
Samsung are reaping the fruits of their theft. They were years behind Apple and once Apple showed everybody the way forward Samsung could have used their considerable resources to build technology for the future, instead they used what was available and spent their resources on marketing, copying, outright theft, obfuscating court cases and flooding the market with crap. Now they will never be able to catch up. By the time they've caught up to A8x Apple will be on A9 and pull away even faster on the back of higher profits that allow better R and D. They gambled and lost.
I think what you are asking for is been in the process of happening since about 2009 04 2010, and has accelerated in the last year or so. Part of the earlier effort has been in fine-tuning the iOS and SoC. This year Apple has upped the stakes with tighter integration between computer, phone, tablet and cloud. But Apple is really standing out with their advances in security; most notably with Finger-print ID and Apple Pay. Apple has also put in place some game-changing software-enabling pieces: Swift and Metal.
Once developers hit their stride with these new tools, you will see the Apple iDevices start doing some things way beyond their pay grade.
What you are referring to is peak performance of the chips. Where Apple excels by a wide margin is that the A8/X can sustain it's maximum performance continuously while the K1 will need to be quickly dialed back due to heat issues within the confines of a phone package.
The K1 is not designed for a phone but tablets. A fairly beefy ones at that. And Chromebooks.
Total performance of the package tends to lead to impacts on total user experience.
Both are powerful chips that provide a good user experience. This is not a controversial statement.
The K1 performs well and has advantages in gaming with dx12 and UE4 support. The A8X performs well and has advantages in gaming with Metal.
Further companies like Samsung have the chips over clock themselves when they recognize benchmarking software, which is not indicative of real world performance. Apple does not use this farce.
The K1 is not designed for a phone but tablets. A fairly beefy ones at that. And Chromebooks.
Total performance of the package tends to lead to impacts on total user experience.
Both are powerful chips that provide a good user experience. This is not a controversial statement.
The K1 performs well and has advantages in gaming with dx12 and UE4 support. The A8X performs well and has advantages in gaming with Metal.
Outside benchmarks (real world instruction mix) and used for a while, it seems the A8X in fact is the better performer on tablets and at a much much lower clock. If the A8X is in fact clocked higher in an Ipad Pro, we'd see just how much juice there is left in the A8X, I'm betting quite a bit.
As for DX12 support, NVDIA being mainly a PC GPU company, it is not surprising they'd already have done the software devellopment for this. When IOS comes up as a major gaming platform within the next 2 years; this unique advantage will fade.
Android's parents is Java. Moving from desktop java apps to Android isn't that hard.
Wow, did you actually just say that? How utterly ridiculous. You might as well have said that since the Android NDK uses C/C++ and most software is written in C/C++, that it's possible to take any piece of software and easily port it to Android. This is simply not the case.
Both Apple and Microsoft have made significant changes to their development environments to make it easy to port code over from their desktop software to mobile. This requires far more than just using a common language.
Besides, none of the truly useful desktop software is written in Java. They will almost all be written in C/C++. The people who use Java are those who need to crank out quick versions of software (for example, within an organization) or software that doesn't require high performance. You won't see Photoshop in Java, for example. Or popular browsers like Chrome.
The nVidia propaganda I read indicated that it had the high performance vs other competing ARMv8s due to larger L1/L2 caches, 7 wide decode and OOE (aka Dynamic Code. Optimizer). And yes, higher clock speed too. That is a design advantage as well.
Both the A8/A8X and K1 are excellent performing ARM chips.
If you had a 6 cylinder 3.0 litre engine that produces 500HP and a 10 cylinder 8.0 litre engine that also produces 500HP, which one would you consider as being technically more advanced? Sure they both produce the same HP, but one uses brute force while the other uses advanced engineering. I'd say a much larger engine that produces the same amount of HP is a piece of crap.
The K1, Snapdragons and Exynos are crap because they use the brute force method. The A7/8/8X are superior because they use advanced technology to get their results.
Or a better way to look at it: You can't make a racehorse out of a pig, but you can still have a pretty fast pig.
Samsung is the only thing that comes close to rivaling iPhone.
Have you guys seen this carbon fiber case? It's looks awesome, I'm definitely getting one!
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1135166568/tuffcarbon-shield-iphone-6-and-6-plus-case
Why is what he said bad, why did you feel it necessary to belittle him. He probably read this somewhere and decided to share it. You could have politely replied to him. You strike me as a person who just reads and reads every bit of tech highlights they can get their hands on without actually getting their hands dirty, talking instead of doing. Java is one of the most used in house programming languages for businesses there is. Entire infrastructures are built upon it, a lot more than compiled code.
Car analogies are silly but can you honestly tell me you wouldn't rather have a V10 over a V8. That 3.0 liter V8 would also be at it's max limit to what is possible, where as the V10 could be pushed to uncharted new hights. I would also choose the engine that I can work on myself instead of outsourcing it to a garage. I'm also limited to a single platform using the A8, where as the K1 is opened to a lot more. Not saying one is better than the other, they both have their purposes and do them well, calling one lesser than the other though is just silly fanboyism crap. The K1 is a very advanced chip, there is nothing else like it on the market right now. Brute force, what does that even me, the K1 is running at it's optimal speed and thermal usage. Nvidia didn't over clock the chip or push it, which by the way you can do, almost 300Mhz past it's shipping spec'ed clock speed before you start to seeing glitches. Including the GPU by 150Mhz.
Spend just a week with a Jetson K1 development board and I guarantee that you will be singing a different tune. You won't though and I'm sure even if you had one you wouldn't know what to do with it. You spew your copied and pasted snippets from tech b!ogs and declare it as gossiple without every actually using the technology you so passionatly hate. The things you can do with this technology is mind blowing, there is 192 CUDA cores in the K1 that's as fast as a GeForce 8800GT. With open libraries and code available to manipulate that power to your hearts content. You don't find that amazing, oh, I forgot, it's not as fast as the Apple A8 or as conservative with it's power consumptipn. I see a super computer and you just another piece of tech that doesn't live up to your expectations, which amount to nothing.
Ceteris paribus, sure, but all other things are never equal when it comes to more cores or more cylinders.
Really? You're going to get a car that has no complex computers and sensors? You take your phone apart to work on the processor? :no:
Non certe.
Either way, stop trying to show off.
Why?