Finally, I'm going to start prototyping my next app this afternoon and have planned to write it completely in Swift from the moment Apple announced it. It was clear as day then that it is Apple's language of choice and it will be what the vast majority of OS X and iOS developers will be using in a few more years.
I couldn't agree more. Just speaking personally, DED's editorials are what makes me keep reading AI more than anything else on AI. I must say after 35 years + personal history with Apple I find is take on that history the most accurate of any journalist I have ever read. As to new fields, I cannot judge but I certainly appreciate his hard work in bringing such a vast amount of information to these pages on a regular basis in his editorials. They elevate AI above being just a rumor / bitching site. AI would be so much the poorer with out them.
Perhaps these regular critics might like to submit a few editorials to AI? If they have a genuinely interesting viewpoint I would like to read it fully, not as snippets as they relate to DED's work. I am not saying this in a snarky way, I mean it seriously. Many of the folks here on AI are very smart and well versed in their own fields.
Like you, I have a long history with Apple (25 years), and I find Daniel's pieces over the years to be informative, direct, humorous, and well-written. I continue to be impressed with breadth and depth of Daniel's knowledge about the computer tech field, and also like you, his writings are the primary reason I read AI.
For those who don't like Daniel's postings, I suggest they read Rob Enderle's writings. He'll give them what they want.
I didn't start a discussion with utter bull. I answered somebody who think that we should disagree with DED in PM only.
DED knows little or nothing about swift, it's uptake or the feelings towards it.
I don't know enough to assess your last statement. I will leave that to those that do to comment. Obviously, a reporter doesn't have to be an expert in all cases on every topic if the article is well researched. This seemed so as far as I could tell, I hope you will expand on why it isn't, so I can read an alternative view point. I have an open mind.
Re "Utter Bull" ... True, re reading I see that now you were specifically referring to the PM, but wonder why you could not simply discuss that with your take, rather than using a declarative put down. Personally, I don't like any form of speech here on AI that is abrasive, it simply makes for a confrontational thread from there on, no real discussion occurs from then on as folks take to their corners. AI is one of the few blogs left that for the most part has a high standard ... most CNN etc. have literally pulled the plug due to the deterioration of the standards.
Like you, I have a long history with Apple (25 years), and I find Daniel's pieces over the years to be informative, direct, humorous, and well-written. I continue to be impressed with breadth and depth of Daniel's knowledge about the computer tech field, and also like you, his writings are the primary reason I read AI.
For those who don't like Daniel's postings, I suggest they read Rob Enderle's writings. He'll give them what they want.
Like you, I have a long history with Apple (25 years), and I find Daniel's pieces over the years to be informative, direct, humorous, and well-written. I continue to be impressed with breadth and depth of Daniel's knowledge about the computer tech field, and also like you, his writings are the primary reason I read AI.
For those who don't like Daniel's postings, I suggest they read Rob Enderle's writings. He'll give them what they want.
Actual real developers are not happy with swift as it is now implemented. . Get yourself a dev account and pop into the tools->language-swift section.
This nonsense about "anybody who doesn't follow DED would be better off following an android troll" is the kind of with us or against us rhetoric beloved of fanatics.
Actual real developers are not happy with swift as it is now implemented. . Get yourself a dev account and pop into the tools->language-swift section.
If you were a regular reader of Daniel's writings, you'd know for certain I am not DED.
A developer friend told me that Swift is not quite ready for production development, it slows down development. There is a price to pay for being on the bleeding edge, one more easily absorbed by some of the big names in this article rather than indy developers who don't need more overhead.
This nonsense about "anybody who doesn't follow DED would be better off following an android troll" is the kind of with us or against us rhetoric beloved of fanatics.
Actual real developers are not happy with swift as it is now implemented. . Get yourself a dev account and pop into the tools->language-swift section.
I agree but that was obviously a joke and not meant seriously. I am a developer and will do as you suggest for a better overall view. However, in my experience a lot of the stuff one reads in the official Apple blogs is far from trustworthy. There is a herd mentality often found there where one apparent issue can create a massive follow up and apparent consensus even if the original issue was dare I say .. BS.
Actual real developers are not happy with swift as it is now implemented. . Get yourself a dev account and pop into the tools->language-swift section.
I know some great developers that live and breath coding. Developers that instead of doing a crossword puzzle or Sudoku, will knock out a Project Euler puzzle in one or more languages for the fun of it. They make a great living doing it, they've been doing it for decades, and they know many languages so they have a solid foundation for their opinion… and they love it. I get unsolicited comments like, "I'm never using Objective-C again unless I have to."
That, plus the articles on how Swift has sped up significantly since it was first introduced tell me it's another success for Apple that has many longterm implications.
Are there things to add and improve upon? Of course, it's at 1.0, but that comes with time. It would be like saying the iPhone platform was crap because it other phones had physical keyboards and '3G'. I expect if one was blown away by Swift last year at WWDC that one will be blown away again this year.
Since my interaction with Swift has been overwhelmingly positive, can you post some recent, negative articles so I can round out my reading?
Actual real developers are not happy with swift as it is now implemented. . Get yourself a dev account and pop into the tools->language-swift section.
Interesting, lots of issues as can be expected when using a new language.
Its also interesting to note that some of the comments shown in this article indicate such problems.
Maybe you could be so kind to extract some comments to show your point (as the writer of this article did) to make the discussion somewhat easier.
From a few minutes browsing I could extract one serious issue: whole program optimisation. But although this must be included in the future isn't a showstopper for now.
I know some great developers that live and breath coding. Developers that instead of doing a crossword puzzle or Sudoku, will knock out a Project Euler puzzle in one or more languages for the fun of it. They make a great living doing it, they've been doing it for decades, and they know many languages so they have a solid foundation for their opinion… and they love it. I get unsolicited comments like, "I'm never using Objective-C again unless I have to."
That, plus the articles on how Swift has sped up significantly since it was first introduced tell me it's another success for Apple that has many longterm implications.
Are there things to add and improve upon? Of course, it's at 1.0, but that comes with time. It would be like saying the iPhone platform was crap because it other phones had physical keyboards and '3G'. I expect if one was blown away by Swift last year at WWDC that one will be blown away again this year.
Since my interaction with Swift has been overwhelmingly positive, can you post some recent, negative articles so I can round out my reading?
I already did. There's no love for swift on apples internal discussion boards. People like the idea but not the implementation.
Outside of that firewall google
Sourcekit crashes.
Swift compile times.
And Apple are being less than honest about performance benefits.
That's not really a problem long term because these are implemation details but Apple didn't present this as a beta. Long term swift swill be better than objective C.
I already did. There's no love for swift on apples internal discussion boards. People like the idea but not the implementation.
Outside of that firewall google
Sourcekit crashes.
Swift compile times.
And Apple are being less than honest about performance benefits.
That's not really a problem long term because these are implemation details but Apple didn't present this as a beta. Long term swift swill be better than objective C.
But not yet.
1) I'm not sure what developers expected from the first beta release. Swift is changing rapidly so anyone not able to do something in even the 1.0 version, muchness the betas, shouldn't be complaining that the language sucks. It's about the potential. Honestly, the only people* developers, which are very few and far between, that don't like Swift really just don't like change or, as they put it, Apple's lack of "open source" software. These are people coding in Java for Android because Android is open source and Java is universal blah blah blah.
2) Jesse Squires is one person I've been following who has been detailing a lot of growth coming from Swift. I'm pretty sure I found his site via Daring Fireball, which could easily be argued as an un-objective view of Apple, so I probably do need some other internet-based sources detailing Swift's comparative performance.
Swift is a nice language and certainly a few steps up from Java and Objective C, but there are better languages out there.
Where I find Swift wanting is in support for union types (many of the newer languages have them or are adding them), not completely eliminating the possibility of the equivalent of a NullPointerException with its built-in Optional, as well as (last I looked) eliminating exceptions completely. Swift seems to take Perl-ish shortcuts at times where more explicitness would be better for readability. The let/var variable declarations treat mutability and immutability as equivalent, whereas immutability should be encouraged. From the Swift guide, I can't tell if generics are invariant or support covariance/contravariance, whether generics are reified or erased, or whether they support declaration site or use site (or any) variance.
So once any performance issues are ironed out, iOS developers will have a better language to work with than Android's Java, but not as good as Ceylon (http://ceylon-lang.org).
Elimination of exceptions is the biggest plus to Swift. I have seen exception designs so hideous that it is sad.
Elimination of exceptions is the biggest plus to Swift. I have seen exception designs so hideous that it is sad.
I agree that exceptions can be abused but I think eliminating them takes away a useful tool that should be applied sparingly. For instance, exceptions are useful for assertions. That is, if you're expecting a List to contain something and it doesn't, and you know is is due to a programming error, making such an assertion is useful, especially early in he development cycle. With Swift, you'll need to check every single possibility with conditional logic. With the lack of union types in the language, and the consequent use of case types, this will be especially jarring.
What are you saying here? Let is immutable and var immutable and Apple strongly encourage 'let' unless mutability is required.
Did I miss something?
And I wish writers would drop that utterly pointless phrase "going forward".
It's simple. The absence of a keyword should mean the variable is immutable. The presence of a keyword should mean the variable is mutable. For example, In Ceylon, a variable is immutable if there is no modifying keyword. So String text is immutable and variable String text is mutable. Thus, the developer must make a conscious decision to make a variable mutable.
I get tired of reading such criticisms and put-downs of Daniel's writings. If you don't like what he writes, don't read it.
My take is folks like you call articles such as this one "puff pieces" because they stand in contrast to the mostly idiotic criticisms and hit pieces published by people at CNET and the like.
I say if you want to offer Daniel constructive criticism, contact him privately, instead of throwing things out for everyone to see.
Utter bull. He's publishing on the Internet. There's a forum to discuss his writings. We discuss it.
I think you're confusing "discussion" with being a whiney little bitch.
I agree that exceptions can be abused but I think eliminating them takes away a useful tool that should be applied sparingly. For instance, exceptions are useful for assertions. That is, if you're expecting a List to contain something and it doesn't, and you know is is due to a programming error, making such an assertion is useful, especially early in he development cycle. With Swift, you'll need to check every single possibility with conditional logic. With the lack of union types in the language, and the consequent use of case types, this will be especially jarring.
I suspect that using 'precondition' in Swift has something to do with the 'lack' of exceptions.
Using 'union' is very C like and should be an implementation detail (of the language) rather than a language feature (I think).
Comments
Yes - Apple stated that the WWDC app from last year was written in Swift.
I couldn't agree more. Just speaking personally, DED's editorials are what makes me keep reading AI more than anything else on AI. I must say after 35 years + personal history with Apple I find is take on that history the most accurate of any journalist I have ever read. As to new fields, I cannot judge but I certainly appreciate his hard work in bringing such a vast amount of information to these pages on a regular basis in his editorials. They elevate AI above being just a rumor / bitching site. AI would be so much the poorer with out them.
Perhaps these regular critics might like to submit a few editorials to AI? If they have a genuinely interesting viewpoint I would like to read it fully, not as snippets as they relate to DED's work. I am not saying this in a snarky way, I mean it seriously. Many of the folks here on AI are very smart and well versed in their own fields.
Like you, I have a long history with Apple (25 years), and I find Daniel's pieces over the years to be informative, direct, humorous, and well-written. I continue to be impressed with breadth and depth of Daniel's knowledge about the computer tech field, and also like you, his writings are the primary reason I read AI.
For those who don't like Daniel's postings, I suggest they read Rob Enderle's writings. He'll give them what they want.
I don't know enough to assess your last statement. I will leave that to those that do to comment. Obviously, a reporter doesn't have to be an expert in all cases on every topic if the article is well researched. This seemed so as far as I could tell, I hope you will expand on why it isn't, so I can read an alternative view point. I have an open mind.
Re "Utter Bull" ... True, re reading I see that now you were specifically referring to the PM, but wonder why you could not simply discuss that with your take, rather than using a declarative put down. Personally, I don't like any form of speech here on AI that is abrasive, it simply makes for a confrontational thread from there on, no real discussion occurs from then on as folks take to their corners. AI is one of the few blogs left that for the most part has a high standard ... most CNN etc. have literally pulled the plug due to the deterioration of the standards.
LOL ...
Actual real developers are not happy with swift as it is now implemented. . Get yourself a dev account and pop into the tools->language-swift section.
Hello DED.
This nonsense about "anybody who doesn't follow DED would be better off following an android troll" is the kind of with us or against us rhetoric beloved of fanatics.
Actual real developers are not happy with swift as it is now implemented. . Get yourself a dev account and pop into the tools->language-swift section.
If you were a regular reader of Daniel's writings, you'd know for certain I am not DED.
I can't image they aren't. I wouldn't be at all surprised if, at the next event or WWDC, they stated Watch OS was written entirely in Swift.
I agree but that was obviously a joke and not meant seriously. I am a developer and will do as you suggest for a better overall view. However, in my experience a lot of the stuff one reads in the official Apple blogs is far from trustworthy. There is a herd mentality often found there where one apparent issue can create a massive follow up and apparent consensus even if the original issue was dare I say .. BS.
I know some great developers that live and breath coding. Developers that instead of doing a crossword puzzle or Sudoku, will knock out a Project Euler puzzle in one or more languages for the fun of it. They make a great living doing it, they've been doing it for decades, and they know many languages so they have a solid foundation for their opinion… and they love it. I get unsolicited comments like, "I'm never using Objective-C again unless I have to."
That, plus the articles on how Swift has sped up significantly since it was first introduced tell me it's another success for Apple that has many longterm implications.
Are there things to add and improve upon? Of course, it's at 1.0, but that comes with time. It would be like saying the iPhone platform was crap because it other phones had physical keyboards and '3G'. I expect if one was blown away by Swift last year at WWDC that one will be blown away again this year.
Since my interaction with Swift has been overwhelmingly positive, can you post some recent, negative articles so I can round out my reading?
Actual real developers are not happy with swift as it is now implemented. . Get yourself a dev account and pop into the tools->language-swift section.
Interesting, lots of issues as can be expected when using a new language.
Its also interesting to note that some of the comments shown in this article indicate such problems.
Maybe you could be so kind to extract some comments to show your point (as the writer of this article did) to make the discussion somewhat easier.
From a few minutes browsing I could extract one serious issue: whole program optimisation. But although this must be included in the future isn't a showstopper for now.
I already did. There's no love for swift on apples internal discussion boards. People like the idea but not the implementation.
Outside of that firewall google
Sourcekit crashes.
Swift compile times.
And Apple are being less than honest about performance benefits.
That's not really a problem long term because these are implemation details but Apple didn't present this as a beta. Long term swift swill be better than objective C.
But not yet.
1) I'm not sure what developers expected from the first beta release. Swift is changing rapidly so anyone not able to do something in even the 1.0 version, muchness the betas, shouldn't be complaining that the language sucks. It's about the potential. Honestly, the only
people* developers, which are very few and far between, that don't like Swift really just don't like change or, as they put it, Apple's lack of "open source" software. These are people coding in Java for Android because Android is open source and Java is universal blah blah blah.2) Jesse Squires is one person I've been following who has been detailing a lot of growth coming from Swift. I'm pretty sure I found his site via Daring Fireball, which could easily be argued as an un-objective view of Apple, so I probably do need some other internet-based sources detailing Swift's comparative performance.
PS: I rechecked this thread but couldn't locate the links you posted.
* They're not really people, are they?
Elimination of exceptions is the biggest plus to Swift. I have seen exception designs so hideous that it is sad.
The article is about SWIFT NOT DED.
You're off topic and if you wanna criticize DED get out of here and start a blog about him or something.
We don't need off-topic posts about DED in our way.
I agree that exceptions can be abused but I think eliminating them takes away a useful tool that should be applied sparingly. For instance, exceptions are useful for assertions. That is, if you're expecting a List to contain something and it doesn't, and you know is is due to a programming error, making such an assertion is useful, especially early in he development cycle. With Swift, you'll need to check every single possibility with conditional logic. With the lack of union types in the language, and the consequent use of case types, this will be especially jarring.
It's simple. The absence of a keyword should mean the variable is immutable. The presence of a keyword should mean the variable is mutable. For example, In Ceylon, a variable is immutable if there is no modifying keyword. So String text is immutable and variable String text is mutable. Thus, the developer must make a conscious decision to make a variable mutable.
I get tired of reading such criticisms and put-downs of Daniel's writings. If you don't like what he writes, don't read it.
My take is folks like you call articles such as this one "puff pieces" because they stand in contrast to the mostly idiotic criticisms and hit pieces published by people at CNET and the like.
I say if you want to offer Daniel constructive criticism, contact him privately, instead of throwing things out for everyone to see.
Utter bull. He's publishing on the Internet. There's a forum to discuss his writings. We discuss it.
I think you're confusing "discussion" with being a whiney little bitch.
I agree that exceptions can be abused but I think eliminating them takes away a useful tool that should be applied sparingly. For instance, exceptions are useful for assertions. That is, if you're expecting a List to contain something and it doesn't, and you know is is due to a programming error, making such an assertion is useful, especially early in he development cycle. With Swift, you'll need to check every single possibility with conditional logic. With the lack of union types in the language, and the consequent use of case types, this will be especially jarring.
I suspect that using 'precondition' in Swift has something to do with the 'lack' of exceptions.
Using 'union' is very C like and should be an implementation detail (of the language) rather than a language feature (I think).