Apple to increase shuttle bus driver wages by 25%

2

Comments

  • Reply 21 of 41
    crowleycrowley Posts: 5,834member
    Dunno about the US, but in a lot of other places you need to pass an additional license test in order to drive a bus. So unless the U.S. is different (not altogether unlikely) it's not unskilled work.
  • Reply 22 of 41
    fallenjtfallenjt Posts: 3,976member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by zoetmb View Post

     



    How about because they can't afford to live on the salary that they're making.   How about because it's unethical for a company with the profits of an Apple to have employees (whether hired directly by Apple or through a third party) who are suffering economically.   How about because doing it your way is exploitation and if I'm correct that most of the drivers are probably black or hispanic, not to do so reeks of racism.   I'm not claiming that bus drivers should be rich or that they should make anywhere near as much as those who invested in their education.   But they deserve a wage that enables them to afford decent housing in a decent neighborhood and puts food on the table and clothes on their backs without having to live week-to-week.    It would also be nice if they could save enough so they could send their kids to a public college.    Why should a bus driver make less than say, a marketing assistant or a just-out-of-school junior business analyst?

     

    It's the right thing to do and it makes Apple look good.   As Apple and other tech giants (Google, Facebook, etc.) get larger, they don't want to be perceived as running a "company town" in which the needs of the company take total precedence over the needs of the people who live there.    And Apple also doesn't want to be perceived as another uncaring giant company like so many others.    As companies get larger, they risk becoming what they originally intended never to be like.

     

    Perception is everything and Apple's customers need/want to feel good about the company they're buying products from.   I believe that Apple's efforts to raise the wages of its unskilled employees and contracted labor, its continued efforts to make sure their products are environmentally sound, the attempts to make sure their overseas contract factories are treating the employees decently and not hiring minors, etc., are all highly beneficial to Apple's reputation and in the long term, will increase sales and profits for the company.   In fact, it might be for easier for Apple to differentiate themselves in this way than with technology, especially since it has become so easy for other companies to copy Apple's technology and frequently offer it at a perceived lower price.   


    How about taking a better fcking education to improve the pay? Don't  blame on others for your own failure in education. This country gives everyone the same opportunity for education and some just don't take advantage of it. While we spent days and months in school libraries, these guys must be smoking pots at parties....

    Want more example? I came to this country (legally) empty handed 25 years ago with no English, no degree, no job. I worked as a custodian cleaning toilets, vacuuming carpet, mopping dirty floor every night at government offices, restaurant at the pay rate of $4.25/hr. I made my way up from a community college with ESL class to begin with, than transferred to University of California system and got my graduate degree there. It took me 7 years to get there but I got it eventually with efforts and sweats too. Even with a degree, I started out with a temp job in Bay Area paid at $13/hr and took years to pass 6-digit pay. So, please stop complaining or just stfu/

  • Reply 23 of 41
    dasanman69dasanman69 Posts: 12,980member
    fallenjt wrote: »
    How about taking a better fcking education to improve the pay? Don't  blame on others for your own failure in education. This country gives everyone the same opportunity for education and some just don't take advantage of it. While we spent days and months in school libraries, these guys must be smoking pots at parties....
    Want more example? I came to this country (legally) empty handed 25 years ago with no English, no degree, no job. I worked as a custodian cleaning toilets, vacuuming carpet, mopping dirty floor every night at government offices, restaurant at the pay rate of $4.25/hr. I made my way up from a community college with ESL class to begin with, than transferred to University of California system and got my graduate degree there. It took me 7 years to get there but I got it eventually with efforts and sweats too. Even with a degree, I started out with a temp job in Bay Area paid at $13/hr and took years to pass 6-digit pay. So, please stop complaining or just stfu/

    Everyone can't do that. Why is it ok for these tech people to drive the cost of living for everyone in a certain area, and not expect the long time residents to want a wage increase?
  • Reply 24 of 41
    dasanman69dasanman69 Posts: 12,980member
    crowley wrote: »
    Dunno about the US, but in a lot of other places you need to pass an additional license test in order to drive a bus. So unless the U.S. is different (not altogether unlikely) it's not unskilled work.

    Exactly the same.
  • Reply 25 of 41

    While I'm sure this decision is mostly altruistic on Apple's part, after the recent press of these bus drivers' complains, Apple didn't really have a choice but do something like this. They have this reputation to uphold that sets them apart from their competitors, and they can't afford for this to become another "Apple runs a sweatshop" kind of bad publicity.

     

    This kinda sucks for Apple because it could become a trend... an easy way to force them to pay up. Really any of their blue-collar workers (janitorial, security, etc.) could make a big stink and Apple would have to pay in order to mitigate the bad press. Not that they can't afford it, so I'm not shedding any tears for them, but in principal it still them being taken advantage of.

  • Reply 26 of 41
    splifsplif Posts: 592member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by fallenjt View Post

     

    How about taking a better fcking education to improve the pay? Don't  blame on others for your own failure in education. This country gives everyone the same opportunity for education and some just don't take advantage of it. While we spent days and months in school libraries, these guys must be smoking pots at parties....

    Want more example? I came to this country (legally) empty handed 25 years ago with no English, no degree, no job. I worked as a custodian cleaning toilets, vacuuming carpet, mopping dirty floor every night at government offices, restaurant at the pay rate of $4.25/hr. I made my way up from a community college with ESL class to begin with, than transferred to University of California system and got my graduate degree there. It took me 7 years to get there but I got it eventually with efforts and sweats too. Even with a degree, I started out with a temp job in Bay Area paid at $13/hr and took years to pass 6-digit pay. So, please stop complaining or just stfu/




    Why do I get the feeling that this is the cliff notes version of this story?

  • Reply 27 of 41
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by fallenjt View Post

     

    How about taking a better fcking education to improve the pay? Don't  blame on others for your own failure in education. This country gives everyone the same opportunity for education and some just don't take advantage of it. While we spent days and months in school libraries, these guys must be smoking pots at parties....

    Want more example? I came to this country (legally) empty handed 25 years ago with no English, no degree, no job. I worked as a custodian cleaning toilets, vacuuming carpet, mopping dirty floor every night at government offices, restaurant at the pay rate of $4.25/hr. I made my way up from a community college with ESL class to begin with, than transferred to University of California system and got my graduate degree there. It took me 7 years to get there but I got it eventually with efforts and sweats too. Even with a degree, I started out with a temp job in Bay Area paid at $13/hr and took years to pass 6-digit pay. So, please stop complaining or just stfu/




    Hats off to you for doing all you have done and what you have achieved in the face of adversity. But please don't lose your humanity in the process. The world needs drivers and it's only fair they are paid a living wage. At least these guys are working and are not claiming benefits. So if they can earn a little extra from the world's biggest company then good for them.

  • Reply 28 of 41
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by fallenjt View Post

    [...] I worked as a custodian cleaning toilets, vacuuming carpet, mopping dirty floor every night at government offices, restaurant at the pay rate of $4.25/hr. [...]

    If anything, you should be personally able to empathize with these guys. Some of them may be just like you were... driving a bus during the day to earn money to take those classes at the local Jr. college.

     

    Point is you don't know their circumstances, and why begrudge them making a little more money if it's an honest living. Apple can certainly afford it, as can any of the other tech companies contracting these buses.

  • Reply 29 of 41
    xixoxixo Posts: 422member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post



    Oy vey. Unless someone is doing 25% more work, I can't see the sense in this.

     

    I'm guessing when you get home, you wipe your shoes on the maid...

  • Reply 30 of 41
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 31,135member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post





    Perhaps "Why in the world " isn't used as a put down in the USA? In which case my bad.



    It was not a put down.

  • Reply 31 of 41
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 31,135member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by zoetmb View Post

     



    How about because they can't afford to live on the salary that they're making.   How about because it's unethical for a company with the profits of an Apple to have employees (whether hired directly by Apple or through a third party) who are suffering economically.   How about because doing it your way is exploitation and if I'm correct that most of the drivers are probably black or hispanic, not to do so reeks of racism.   I'm not claiming that bus drivers should be rich or that they should make anywhere near as much as those who invested in their education.   But they deserve a wage that enables them to afford decent housing in a decent neighborhood and puts food on the table and clothes on their backs without having to live week-to-week.    It would also be nice if they could save enough so they could send their kids to a public college.    Why should a bus driver make less than say, a marketing assistant or a just-out-of-school junior business analyst?

     

    It's the right thing to do and it makes Apple look good.   As Apple and other tech giants (Google, Facebook, etc.) get larger, they don't want to be perceived as running a "company town" in which the needs of the company take total precedence over the needs of the people who live there.    And Apple also doesn't want to be perceived as another uncaring giant company like so many others.    As companies get larger, they risk becoming what they originally intended never to be like.

     

    Perception is everything and Apple's customers need/want to feel good about the company they're buying products from.   I believe that Apple's efforts to raise the wages of its unskilled employees and contracted labor, its continued efforts to make sure their products are environmentally sound, the attempts to make sure their overseas contract factories are treating the employees decently and not hiring minors, etc., are all highly beneficial to Apple's reputation and in the long term, will increase sales and profits for the company.   In fact, it might be for easier for Apple to differentiate themselves in this way than with technology, especially since it has become so easy for other companies to copy Apple's technology and frequently offer it at a perceived lower price.   


     

    (Emphasis mine)

     

    Is it Apple's burden to overpay people? Wages are determined by competition among businesses for labor. If the jobs are low-skill but in high demand, wages will be higher. This looks like capitulation to avoid more bullshit claims of racism or class-warfare arguments that are so in vogue these days.

  • Reply 32 of 41
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

     

     

    (Emphasis mine)

     

    Is it Apple's burden to overpay people? Wages are determined by competition among businesses for labor. If the jobs are low-skill but in high demand, wages will be higher. This looks like capitulation to avoid more bullshit claims of racism or class-warfare arguments that are so in vogue these days.




    I'm happy that Apple leadership doesn't think like you.

  • Reply 33 of 41
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 31,135member
    pbrstreetg wrote: »

    I'm happy that Apple leadership doesn't think like you.

    Why? Are you one of the affected bus drivers? What's your interest in this matter?
  • Reply 34 of 41
    zoetmbzoetmb Posts: 2,449member
    (Emphasis mine)

    Is it Apple's burden to overpay people? Wages are determined by competition among businesses for labor. If the jobs are low-skill but in high demand, wages will be higher. This looks like capitulation to avoid more bullshit claims of racism or class-warfare arguments that are so in vogue these days.
    How is it overpaying when what they were making keeps them poor?

    Just because there's more workers than jobs shouldn't mean that workers have to live in poverty or close to it.

    All people who work deserve a living wage. It's not the workers' fault that the high wages paid to the highly skilled workers at Apple and other such companies have driven up housing and other costs.

    And of course there is class warfare. Middle class workers haven't received a real wage increase in 25 years. All the wealth has gone to those at the top.
  • Reply 35 of 41
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 31,135member
    zoetmb wrote: »
    How is it overpaying when what they were making keeps them poor?

    Just because there's more workers than jobs shouldn't mean that workers have to live in poverty or close to it.

    All people who work deserve a living wage. It's not the workers' fault that the high wages paid to the highly skilled workers at Apple and other such companies have driven up housing and other costs.

    And of course there is class warfare. Middle class workers haven't received a real wage increase in 25 years. All the wealth has gone to those at the top.

    I consider none of those valid reasons. This is an outside vendor to Apple. Do you not think all outside vendors are now going to try pulling this same move? Honestly, Tim needs to keep a close watch on vendors trying to take advantage of Apple. It would be very bad to respond to every sob story and publicity-seeking supplier trying to extract money out of Apple. An abundance of money in the bank isn't an excuse to blow it all on every complainer that comes their way.
  • Reply 36 of 41
    zoetmbzoetmb Posts: 2,449member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by fallenjt View Post

     

    How about taking a better fcking education to improve the pay? Don't  blame on others for your own failure in education. This country gives everyone the same opportunity for education and some just don't take advantage of it. While we spent days and months in school libraries, these guys must be smoking pots at parties....

    Want more example? I came to this country (legally) empty handed 25 years ago with no English, no degree, no job. I worked as a custodian cleaning toilets, vacuuming carpet, mopping dirty floor every night at government offices, restaurant at the pay rate of $4.25/hr. I made my way up from a community college with ESL class to begin with, than transferred to University of California system and got my graduate degree there. It took me 7 years to get there but I got it eventually with efforts and sweats too. Even with a degree, I started out with a temp job in Bay Area paid at $13/hr and took years to pass 6-digit pay. So, please stop complaining or just stfu/




    So congratulations.    You worked hard and eventually earned six figures.   I started out making minimum wage and I eventually earned six figures.   Bus drivers work hard.   They're not expecting six figures.   They just want to have a decent life.   

     

    While I agree that people who want to earn high wages need to increase their skills and have a high level of education, no one who works should have to live in poverty.    And just because you earned crap wages as you were getting educated, doesn't mean that people should still earn poverty wages.   Look at the percentage increase in housing costs in the Bay area in the time since you were earning $13 an hour.   

     

    When you went to college and even earlier, when I went to college, it was relatively affordable and public colleges were free or close to it.   My freshman year at a private college cost $1300 in tuition.    I worked 90 hours a week (including traveling time) in the summer before my Freshman year at minimum wage to make money for school.     When I went to that school, City College in NYC was absolutely free, if you could get in, which required almost perfect SAT scores.   Today, even public colleges can cost $20,000 per year and private schools cost from $40,000 to $70,000 per year.    That puts it completely out of reach for someone who earns $10 - $15 per hour.   In fact, a college education is now out of reach for many middle-class families in the U.S.    So I completely disagree that this country gives everyone the same chance at an education.   The reality is that if you're not rich, there are fewer and fewer opportunities to get a college education at a school that's not actually the equivalent of 13th grade.   

     

    Furthermore, before China took over our manufacturing, there was a way in many parts of the country for someone with relatively little education to work in a factory and make a decent middle-class wage, especially if the factory was unionized.    There was affordable real-estate even in the largest cities.   When my parents moved to Brooklyn in 1966, their rent for a 3-bedroom apartment, including gas, electricity, parking and a swimming pool was $209 a month (the equivalent of $1508 today).    Today, that building is a co-op and those 3-bedroom apartments sell for $600,000 and up.     But even if it was still $1508 per month today, someone making $15-$20 an hour couldn't afford to live there - in fact, they wouldn't even be permitted in the building because they wouldn't meet the financial requirements.  

     

    Minimum wage has not kept pace with inflation.   The minimum wage in 197

     

    I don't know what gave you the impression that I was complaining.   I wasn't complaining at all.  I was congratulating Apple for raising the wages of their lowest paid workers.    Frankly, I don't understand your logic - because you suffered, everyone else should suffer for all of eternity?   And why don't you behave like a decent human being and not tell other people to STFU?   Or maybe you don't think I'm entitled to express my views?  

     

     

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post





    I consider none of those valid reasons. This is an outside vendor to Apple. Do you not think all outside vendors are now going to try pulling this same move? Honestly, Tim needs to keep a close watch on vendors trying to take advantage of Apple. It would be very bad to respond to every sob story and publicity-seeking supplier trying to extract money out of Apple. An abundance of money in the bank isn't an excuse to blow it all on every complainer that comes their way.



    I don't think it's taking advantage of Apple when vendors demand enough payment to pay their workers a decent living wage.

     

    Companies have used outside vendors as an excuse not to pay well.   Walmart pulled the same crap with workers who cleaned the stores at night (remember the "lock them in" controversy?).   For all intents and purposes, those employees (as well as factory employees) are working full time for Apple even if from a legal perspective they're working for someone else.

     

    I'm a consultant and took on a one-year assignment for a major media company.   But they paid me through a third-party employment agency.  Technically, I worked for the Agency, not for the media company.   But as far as I was concerned, I was working for the media company and all my negotiations for compensation were through them.    

     

    This is all similar to the "freelancer"/"independent consultant" game that companies play.   But according to the IRS, if the employee doesn't control when they work, where they work or how they work, they're not considered independent consultants and companies can be fined for making them such and not withholding taxes from their compensation.   Years ago, I produced audio-visual programs for a division of another major media company and even when we employed actors, who were obviously not employees of the company and were hired for particular projects on a daily basis, we had to fill out tons of paperwork each time to declare that they were indeed not employees.  

     

    It's one thing if Apple was hiring a company to paint the outside of the buildings on a one-time basis or if there was some electrical or HVAC problem that needed to be fixed.   But bus drivers and people who clean the building are essentially working full-time for Apple.   A company that makes $billions in profits and markets itself as an ethically aware company cannot get away with exploiting its workers (or shouldn't be able to).    Even with all that Apple is doing, they still get harassed by the press and media.   One of the late night shows did a bit the other night, which I thought was a bit unfair, but basically criticized Apple (and people who buy their products) for the way Chinese workers are treated.    There was no mention that Apple didn't own those factories or that other products are produced there as well.   And the reputation of a company does influence its sales and its stock price.   

     

    If we do it your way, then Apple is overpaying most of their employees, but I never see anyone complain about that.   Are you telling me that someone who makes $150,000 wouldn't have taken the job if it had paid $130,000?   That a more senior exec who might be making $500K + 30,000 stock options per year wouldn't have taken the job if it had paid $400K and 20,000 options?    We only complain when more is paid to the poor and lower middle class - we never complain when it's paid to the well-off.  

  • Reply 37 of 41
    dasanman69dasanman69 Posts: 12,980member
    I consider none of those valid reasons. This is an outside vendor to Apple. Do you not think all outside vendors are now going to try pulling this same move? Honestly, Tim needs to keep a close watch on vendors trying to take advantage of Apple. It would be very bad to respond to every sob story and publicity-seeking supplier trying to extract money out of Apple. An abundance of money in the bank isn't an excuse to blow it all on every complainer that comes their way.

    Yet it's OK for Apple to take advantage of whatever they can? It's a 2 way street. In some places Apple saves a buck, and in others it overspends by a buck, but at the end of the day they've saved way more than they've overspent.
  • Reply 38 of 41
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 31,135member
    dasanman69 wrote: »
    Yet it's OK for Apple to take advantage of whatever they can? It's a 2 way street. In some places Apple saves a buck, and in others it overspends by a buck, but at the end of the day they've saved way more than they've overspent.

    That's an unprovable assertion.

    What we do know is that Apple was getting unfavorable press for something that had nothing to do with their direct employees and because Apple is the top earning company on Earth now, they are an easy target for blackmailers.
  • Reply 40 of 41
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,399member
    Originally Posted by Blastdoor View Post

    I wonder what would happen if Apple were to become more politically engaged, particularly in US states like Arizona and Texas. 


     

    If I remember correctly, Texas and North Dakota are the only states responsible for actual job creation since 2008 (though unemployment is higher than ever).

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