Apple pledges $50M to increase the presence of women, minorities & veterans in tech jobs

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Comments

  • Reply 61 of 85
    dasanman69dasanman69 Posts: 13,002member
    qvak wrote: »
    LOL! Meanwhile the SJW noose tightens and two programmer dorks that made a "dongle" joke at a tech conference got shitcanned, as did Pax Pickinson for his political leanings.

    The feminist oppression fantasy involving "brogrammers" in a frat party/date rape environment is simply untrue, it's some 50-shades-of-grey-level make-believe degeneracy. MOST programmers and software engineers are on the autism spectrum and very much lacking in social ability. The side effect of them living in their heads is that they can write excellent code. Now parasite feminists are trying to invade THEIR space to make the typical maladjusted but brilliant software nerd unemployable due to crimes against politica;l correctness (basically, feminists believe the existence of male software engineers is a crime in itself.)

    The most laughable thing about your post is is the assertion that "The industry is becoming more hostile to women" as if that even means anything. This is the same type of vague argumentation as "think of the children" or "no true scotsman..." Basically words devoid of any real meaning or context but successful in manipulating the readers' emotions.

    Consider the following: Software engineering is hard. Programming is hard. And boring. And the indutrsy drives its resources like slaves, where 60-80 hour weeks are typical. Software development is not the ritzy/glitzy ego and status booster that women imagine it to be, and to top it off, political correctness in the office means that any amount of human contact/civility these already socially deficient autists may have practiced with the women in the office is no longer done because everyone is terrified of having their career destroyed by another Stage IV Retard like Adria Richards, so whatever fun the women might have had with social interaction is gone.

    Basically, you're either ignorant of the facts and just repeat what you're told, or you're mentally ill like all k-selected liberals. Take it from someone who has been in the software industry for years, the reason women do not go into tech is that they don't like it, it doesn't boost status and the hours and pay are shit.

    AND NO AMOUNT OF MONEY WASTED IN THESE IDIOTIC SCHEMES TO PROMOTE DIVERSITY WILL CHANGE THE BASIC FACTS.

    Newsflash: there are plenty of tech jobs that don't involve writing code.
  • Reply 62 of 85
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 33,407member
    dasanman69 wrote: »
    Newsflash: there are plenty of tech jobs that don't involve writing code.

    Oh, now I get it. People are complaining because they only want the GOOD jobs. ????
  • Reply 63 of 85
    richlrichl Posts: 2,213member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by qvak View Post
     

     

    *snips*

     

    Thank you for proving my point. You're a software developer (Hey, me too!) and you're utterly hostile towards women being in the industry.

     

    I'm also sorry that you find programming to be boring, that you're poorly paid and that you're worked like a slave. Maybe you need a career change yourself.

  • Reply 64 of 85
    adonissmuadonissmu Posts: 1,774member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by qvak View Post

     

     

    LOL! Meanwhile the SJW noose tightens and two programmer dorks that made a "dongle" joke at a tech conference got shitcanned, as did Pax Pickinson for his political leanings.

     

    The feminist oppression fantasy involving "brogrammers" in a frat party/date rape environment is simply untrue, it's some 50-shades-of-grey-level make-believe degeneracy. MOST programmers and software engineers are on the autism spectrum and very much lacking in social ability. The side effect of them living in their heads is that they can write excellent code. Now parasite feminists are trying to invade THEIR space to make the typical maladjusted but brilliant software nerd unemployable due to crimes against politica;l correctness (basically, feminists believe the existence of male software engineers is a crime in itself.)

     

    The most laughable thing about your post is is the assertion that "The industry is becoming more hostile to women" as if that even means anything. This is the same type of vague argumentation as "think of the children" or "no true scotsman..." Basically words devoid of any real meaning or context but successful in manipulating the readers' emotions.

     

    Consider the following: Software engineering is hard. Programming is hard. And boring. And the indutrsy drives its resources like slaves, where 60-80 hour weeks are typical. Software development is not the ritzy/glitzy ego and status booster that women imagine it to be, and to top it off, political correctness in the office means that any amount of human contact/civility these already socially deficient autists may have practiced with the women in the office is no longer done because everyone is terrified of having their career destroyed by another Stage IV Retard like Adria Richards, so whatever fun the women might have had with social interaction is gone.

     

    Basically, you're either ignorant of the facts and just repeat what you're told, or you're mentally ill like all k-selected liberals. Take it from someone who has been in the software industry for years, the reason women do not go into tech is that they don't like it, it doesn't boost status and the hours and pay are shit.

     

    AND NO AMOUNT OF MONEY WASTED IN THESE IDIOTIC SCHEMES TO PROMOTE DIVERSITY WILL CHANGE THE BASIC FACTS.


    I don't agree. I love programming. It's very fun working with people who end up becoming my friend at one capacity or another. I also love the learning. 

  • Reply 65 of 85
    qvakqvak Posts: 86member
    <div class="quote-container" data-huddler-embed="/t/185169/apple-pledges-50m-to-increase-the-presence-of-women-minorities-veterans-in-tech-jobs/40#post_2690420" data-huddler-embed-placeholder="false">Quote:
    <div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>RichL</strong> <a href="/t/185169/apple-pledges-50m-to-increase-the-presence-of-women-minorities-veterans-in-tech-jobs/40#post_2690420"><img alt="View Post" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" /></a><br />
     
    <p> </p>

    <p>Thank you for proving my point. You're a software developer (Hey, me too!) and you're utterly hostile towards women being in the industry.</p>

    <p> </p>

    <p>I'm also sorry that you find programming to be boring and that you're worked like a slave. Maybe you need a career change yourself.</p>
    </div>
    </div>

    <p> </p>

    <p>Amazing reading comprehension. At what point did I disparage women in the industry? Though I am definitely hostile to feminists and their pathetic lap-dogs.</p>

    <p> </p>

    <p>Let me ask you something, and please try to answer it honestly. If there were a super-secret evil frat-boy conspiracy in the software industry to keep women out.... How would the women thinking about going into software engineering know about it? Word of mouth? Whose. And would it account for such massively low numbers?</p>

    <p> </p>

    <p>The amount of marketing and shilling going on by these dishonest academic advisors and feminist parasite groups trying to convince prospective students to choose tech, no possibility of knowing about the make-believe boys' club before entering the workforce and yed STILL female enrollment in STEM is at an all-time low.</p>

    <p> </p>

    <p>Get your heads out of your asses. Your "muh feels" arguments aren't cutting it.</p>

    <p> </p>

    <p> </p>

    <div class="quote-container" data-huddler-embed="/t/185169/apple-pledges-50m-to-increase-the-presence-of-women-minorities-veterans-in-tech-jobs/40#post_2690470" data-huddler-embed-placeholder="false">Quote:

    <div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>AdonisSMU</strong> <a href="/t/185169/apple-pledges-50m-to-increase-the-presence-of-women-minorities-veterans-in-tech-jobs/40#post_2690470"><img alt="View Post" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" /></a><br />
     
    <p>I don't agree. I love programming. It's very fun working with people who end up becoming my friend at one capacity or another. I also love the learning. </p>
    </div>
    </div>

    <p> </p>

    <p>Well then, if it isn't true for you, it isn't true for anyone. Dat dere base rate fallacy. Look the reality is if the programmers didn't like programming, they wouldn't do it. But it's a huge stretch to say that some disinterested prospective student being convinced by the marketing push to go into soen WON'T find it incredibly boring... and that's IF they don't wash out in the first year.</p>
  • Reply 66 of 85
    richlrichl Posts: 2,213member
    qvak wrote: »
    Amazing reading comprehension. At what point did I disparage women in the industry? Though I am definitely hostile to feminists and their pathetic lap-dogs.

    A lot of women in the tech industry are feminists. A lot of women wanting to get into the tech industry are feminists. You openly admit to being hostile towards them.

    The complaint I hear the most from female colleagues is that male developers don't take them seriously. Male engineers don't respect them and don't listen to them. And here you are, being exhibit A. You're exactly the kind of person that makes the industry so off-putting to them.

    May I ask what part is the industry you work in? I'm still puzzled by your comment that the job is poorly paid.
  • Reply 67 of 85
    adonissmuadonissmu Posts: 1,774member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post



    ^^^ Being black isn't the issue, I gotta tell ya. All businesses are competitive internally. Every place I've worked at there is backstabbing, blaming others and assaults against the character of others. Politics is everything and a person who is unable to play politics gets passed over for promotions, will become a target and not rise to the top in the organization. Personally, I detested and avoided the politics and often got played by other employees who were dishonest and willing to throw anyone under the bus.

    The politics can also work against a business. Eventually the people who are actually the brains of the operation leave HUGE gaps to fill. Currently, the guy you hired at 75k who was doing a ton of work for you will now have to replace and pay the next person 100k+ to fill that same gap all while wasting company time to find that person and get them up to speed on your system and how to work within it effectively.

     

    I myself can be brilliant or terrible at handling politics. I say what I think and it either lands like a thud or it doesn't. I make mistakes and I acknowledge and improve and avoid those mistakes in the future. Mistakes is a natural part of the growth cycle. I need the freedom to make mistakes. This allows me to take risks in a way that not being able to make a mistake wouldn't. However, I find that mistakes made by people who are minorities or women are much more visibly criticized when compared with others. At my first BIG time job I was told not to tell anyone that I didn't understand something because it would make people feel uneasy. I get that they were trying to help me with that advice but it made me raise my right eyebrow in a way that can't be considered good. It made me wonder about the culture of dishonesty that is looming about in the office.

  • Reply 68 of 85
    MarvinMarvin Posts: 14,872moderator
    calpolymis wrote: »
    There is sexism and racism in the tech industry and it's not always transparent

    That makes it difficult to prove where it is and it leaves it wide open for abuse. Take for example the following. After Bill Cosby had all those allegations come out, he said:

    "I only expect the black media to uphold the standards of excellence in journalism and when you do that you have to go in with a neutral mind."

    http://variety.com/2014/biz/news/bill-cosby-briefly-breaks-silence-expects-black-media-to-stay-neutral-1201379231/

    When the following black actress (who was 27 and raised in California) was arrested for public indecency, basically having sex in her car in public, she said:

    "'You're not the one in handcuffs, you're not the one who's spent your life being called a n*****, and growing up in the South and now I get the cops called on me,' she says through tears."

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2802161/django-unchained-actress-boyfriend-charged-lewd-conduct-having-sex-car-one-month-claiming-lapd-arrested-s-black.html

    When a store keeper in Switzerland suggested to Oprah Winfrey to avoid looking at an overpriced bag because it was not much different from what she was being shown, she claimed the store keeper was not letting her see it because the store keeper must have assumed with her being black she couldn't afford it:

    http://www.thewrap.com/tv/article/oprah-winfrey-apologizes-racist-handbag-furor-110336/

    At the Oscars recently, Patricia Arquette (who has a reported net worth of $24m) said the following at 0:57:

    "To every woman who gave birth, to every taxpayer and citizen of this nation, we have fought for everybody else's equal rights, it's our time to have wage equality once and for all and equal rights for women in the United States of America"


    [VIDEO]


    When sexism and racism isn't readily identifiable then you can find it where there is none and justify it. Look how many people were cheering Patricia Arquette over an issue that is a complete lie and even while she put the issue ahead of race and gender equality. She uses the phrase 'wage equality' implying that women who do the same jobs as men get paid less. If you compare exactly the same job roles and don't do a lazy average of merging different jobs together per gender then the difference is small:

    http://www.payscale.com/gender-lifetime-earnings-gap

    Jobs like acting, CEOs etc are positions of merit and the pay varies hugely from one person to another regardless of gender or race.

    Of course there is going to be some latent sexism and racism because of what happened decades ago but we can't assume that it exists everywhere forever and give people unfair advantages. At some point we have to say enough has been done. When you look at the photos on the following site, they aren't examples of diversity, you have groups of women and groups of black people together, they've been separated out from other races and genders:

    http://fortune.com/2015/03/10/apple-50-million-diversity/

    Discrimination is going to happen with all kinds of minority groups but it happens with men too. Male nurses are treated badly. A male nurse complained about being ejected from a ward by female nurses while female patients were getting undressed and he felt offended by that. A female nurse complained online about feeling weird teaching a male nurse how to insert a catheter into a sedated woman. If you had a wife or girlfriend sedated in hospital, would you be ok having a male nurse putting his fingers all over her? There was a CCTV of a gay male nurse caught abusing a sedated male patient online.

    Some job roles are more suited to some groups than others and they are similarly more appealing to some than others. Problems have to be identified properly and resolved, we can't just assume there are problems everywhere and legitimize every assumption.
    Oh, now I get it. People are complaining because they only want the GOOD jobs.

    That is precisely the issue. This is what the whole equal pay for equal work campaign has been about. There's inequality in lower paid jobs but nobody is falling over themselves to promote women in waste disposal.

    As a whole, women choose to work in lower paid jobs and so when you average all the income of women then of course it comes out lower but they hold 50% of all jobs. If you assume all jobs are being filled and it's 50/50 then selectively pushing women into higher paid jobs will inevitably push men into lower paid jobs.

    Men and women are very often together in the same household too so if you look at household incomes, the effect of a few % pay difference is non-existent.

    If women want to be in tech jobs and find that they aren't being successful then sure, offer programs to help but the noise about this isn't coming from women workers, it's coming from people who are looking at the numbers and assuming uneven numbers are a problem.

    If an employer offers a job role for say $30k, does a woman get a lower amount if she applies for it? Is she at any disadvantage as far as education, mobility, housing of getting the job? No. So what is the problem being solved here? The problem is simply a lack of numbers and an assumption of a male-oriented environment rather than an assumption of a lack of interest.

    There's a healthy balance to be made. If you have 1 woman in a computer science class of 30 then it's understandable they'd feel isolated and might even be hit on more than usual because of shared interests. The same is true of a male nurse or teacher where they'd be vastly outnumbered by women. 50/50 is not the right balance in all things, nor is 0/100 but make sensible judgements over what is the right amount. Population demographics come into play too. If 15% of a population is black and you have a 15% black workforce then that's not a problem needing to be solved.

    Whatever measures taken actively should be with the aim of maintaining a healthy balance and not having equal numbers or equal salaries for different job roles.
  • Reply 69 of 85
    adonissmuadonissmu Posts: 1,774member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Marvin View Post





    That makes it difficult to prove where it is and it leaves it wide open for abuse. Take for example the following. After Bill Cosby had all those allegations come out, he said:



    "I only expect the black media to uphold the standards of excellence in journalism and when you do that you have to go in with a neutral mind."



    http://variety.com/2014/biz/news/bill-cosby-briefly-breaks-silence-expects-black-media-to-stay-neutral-1201379231/



    When the following black actress (who was 27 and raised in California) was arrested for public indecency, basically having sex in her car in public, she said:



    "'You're not the one in handcuffs, you're not the one who's spent your life being called a n*****, and growing up in the South and now I get the cops called on me,' she says through tears."



    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2802161/django-unchained-actress-boyfriend-charged-lewd-conduct-having-sex-car-one-month-claiming-lapd-arrested-s-black.html



    When a store keeper in Switzerland suggested to Oprah Winfrey to avoid looking at an overpriced bag because it was not much different from what she was being shown, she claimed the store keeper was not letting her see it because the store keeper must have assumed with her being black she couldn't afford it:



    http://www.thewrap.com/tv/article/oprah-winfrey-apologizes-racist-handbag-furor-110336/



    At the Oscars recently, Patricia Arquette (who has a reported net worth of $24m) said the following at 0:57:



    "To every woman who gave birth, to every taxpayer and citizen of this nation, we have fought for everybody else's equal rights, it's our time to have wage equality once and for all and equal rights for women in the United States of America"









    When sexism and racism isn't readily identifiable then you can find it where there is none and justify it. Look how many people were cheering Patricia Arquette over an issue that is a complete lie and even while she put the issue ahead of race and gender equality. She uses the phrase 'wage equality' implying that women who do the same jobs as men get paid less. If you compare exactly the same job roles and don't do a lazy average of merging different jobs together per gender then the difference is small:



    http://www.payscale.com/gender-lifetime-earnings-gap



    Jobs like acting, CEOs etc are positions of merit and the pay varies hugely from one person to another regardless of gender or race.



    Of course there is going to be some latent sexism and racism because of what happened decades ago but we can't assume that it exists everywhere forever and give people unfair advantages. At some point we have to say enough has been done. When you look at the photos on the following site, they aren't examples of diversity, you have groups of women and groups of black people together, they've been separated out from other races and genders:



    http://fortune.com/2015/03/10/apple-50-million-diversity/



    Discrimination is going to happen with all kinds of minority groups but it happens with men too. Male nurses are treated badly. A male nurse complained about being ejected from a ward by female nurses while female patients were getting undressed and he felt offended by that. A female nurse complained online about feeling weird teaching a male nurse how to insert a catheter into a sedated woman. If you had a wife or girlfriend sedated in hospital, would you be ok having a male nurse putting his fingers all over her? There was a CCTV of a gay male nurse caught abusing a sedated male patient online.



    Some job roles are more suited to some groups than others and they are similarly more appealing to some than others. Problems have to be identified properly and resolved, we can't just assume there are problems everywhere and legitimize every assumption.

    That is precisely the issue. This is what the whole equal pay for equal work campaign has been about. There's inequality in lower paid jobs but nobody is falling over themselves to promote women in waste disposal.



    As a whole, women choose to work in lower paid jobs and so when you average all the income of women then of course it comes out lower but they hold 50% of all jobs. If you assume all jobs are being filled and it's 50/50 then selectively pushing women into higher paid jobs will inevitably push men into lower paid jobs.



    Men and women are very often together in the same household too so if you look at household incomes, the effect of a few % pay difference is non-existent.



    If women want to be in tech jobs and find that they aren't being successful then sure, offer programs to help but the noise about this isn't coming from women workers, it's coming from people who are looking at the numbers and assuming uneven numbers are a problem.



    If an employer offers a job role for say $30k, does a woman get a lower amount if she applies for it? Is she at any disadvantage as far as education, mobility, housing of getting the job? No. So what is the problem being solved here? The problem is simply a lack of numbers and an assumption of a male-oriented environment rather than an assumption of a lack of interest.



    There's a healthy balance to be made. If you have 1 woman in a computer science class of 30 then it's understandable they'd feel isolated and might even be hit on more than usual because of shared interests. The same is true of a male nurse or teacher where they'd be vastly outnumbered by women. 50/50 is not the right balance in all things, nor is 0/100 but make sensible judgements over what is the right amount. Population demographics come into play too. If 15% of a population is black and you have a 15% black workforce then that's not a problem needing to be solved.



    Whatever measures taken actively should be with the aim of maintaining a healthy balance and not having equal numbers or equal salaries for different job roles.

    Well my gripe is more that the companies are not investing in actual people. They are investing in programs. I'd rather see them invest in people. I think that is severely lacking in the tech world right now. Most companies want ready made products rather than actually trying to develop people. 

  • Reply 70 of 85
    adonissmuadonissmu Posts: 1,774member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by qvak View Post

     

     

    Amazing reading comprehension. At what point did I disparage women in the industry? Though I am definitely hostile to feminists and their pathetic lap-dogs.

     

    Let me ask you something, and please try to answer it honestly. If there were a super-secret evil frat-boy conspiracy in the software industry to keep women out.... How would the women thinking about going into software engineering know about it? Word of mouth? Whose. And would it account for such massively low numbers?

     

    The amount of marketing and shilling going on by these dishonest academic advisors and feminist parasite groups trying to convince prospective students to choose tech, no possibility of knowing about the make-believe boys' club before entering the workforce and yed STILL female enrollment in STEM is at an all-time low.

     

    Get your heads out of your asses. Your "muh feels" arguments aren't cutting it.

     

     

     

    Well then, if it isn't true for you, it isn't true for anyone. Dat dere base rate fallacy. Look the reality is if the programmers didn't like programming, they wouldn't do it. But it's a huge stretch to say that some disinterested prospective student being convinced by the marketing push to go into soen WON'T find it incredibly boring... and that's IF they don't wash out in the first year.


    People do many things they don't like to do. There is always a chance people won't like programming or will burn out and what not. You will have that regardless. There is no getting around that risk. I think it's a difference in philosophical approach. Rather than dumping money into potentially over priced institutions, maybe hiring minorities who are already in the field and then training them to succeed in your organization is a better use of resources....than writing blank checks to already overpriced colleges that many can't afford or use anyway. Is a $50million dollar check going to change the market demographics more effectively than investing in actual people will? Probably not. 

  • Reply 71 of 85
    dasanman69dasanman69 Posts: 13,002member
    Oh, now I get it. People are complaining because they only want the GOOD jobs. ????

    What's 'good' is subjective.
  • Reply 72 of 85
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 33,407member
    dasanman69 wrote: »
    What's 'good' is subjective.

    Right. And..?
  • Reply 73 of 85
    dasanman69dasanman69 Posts: 13,002member
    Right. And..?

    Tech jobs aren't only about coding and engineering. There are aspects of tech that may benefit from a woman's perspective. A woman that lands that job will think it's good, while a programmer will think a coding job is good, but not vice versa.
  • Reply 74 of 85
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 33,407member
    dasanman69 wrote: »
    Tech jobs aren't only about coding and engineering. There are aspects of tech that may benefit from a woman's perspective. A woman that lands that job will think it's good, while a programmer will think a coding job is good, but not vice versa.

    Yes, and toward which jobs do women in technology typically gravitate? If I were to hazard a guess, I'd say manager positions, not programming. I've known very few female programmers. Math and engineering nerds tend to be mostly male.
  • Reply 75 of 85
    qvakqvak Posts: 86member

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post





    Tech jobs aren't only about coding and engineering. There are aspects of tech that may benefit from a woman's perspective. A woman that lands that job will think it's good, while a programmer will think a coding job is good, but not vice versa.

     

    Yes yes, because women have these innate gifts that men do not have and could never hope to live up to. Check your female privilege, tumblrista. Knowledge, experience and ability to perform under pressure trump mythological notions of "female perspective." There is no male or female perspective, all that matters is experience and the ability to use reason.

     

     

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post





    Yes, and toward which jobs do women in technology typically gravitate? If I were to hazard a guess, I'd say manager positions, not programming. I've known very few female programmers. Math and engineering nerds tend to be mostly male.

     

    Yes. "Manager positions," like "managing" some "SEO & online marketing" activities. Basically consists of surfing the web and posting to twitter while guzzling starbucks lattes. This is the glamorous job they all dream about/

     

    Kidding aside, if a woman in tech works on the legal, finance or even management side, what does it matter what industry she's in? The software/hardware is just another product. Those people also tend to have very little interaction with the actual design engineers and programmers anyway so they may as well be working at KFC corporate or the Acme Widget Co.

     

    No the implications of this "get women in tech" propaganda is intended to get women involved in the technical aspects of technology design and manufacturing. And as has been established, most of them don't know or care about this type of work hence the dwindling numbers despite wall to wall shilling.

  • Reply 76 of 85
    dasanman69dasanman69 Posts: 13,002member
    qvak wrote: »
    Yes yes, because women have these innate gifts that men do not have and could never hope to live up to. Check your female privilege, tumblrista. Knowledge, experience and ability to perform under pressure trump mythological notions of "female perspective." There is no male or female perspective, all that matters is experience and the ability to use reason.

    So men and women are exactly the same? There's no physiological, nor psychological differences?
  • Reply 77 of 85
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,388member
    Originally Posted by CUDA67 View Post

    Currently OS X (Yosemite) and iOS are disasters. That came to be with what APPLE currently has in house. It's time for diversity.



    Are these actual words that an actual human being believes?

  • Reply 78 of 85
    qvakqvak Posts: 86member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post





    So men and women are exactly the same? There's no physiological, nor psychological differences?

     

    This is what the feminists say out of one side of their mouth while demanding special privileges and protections out of the other.

     

    If you believe that professionals are professionals regardless of gender or race, then there is no such thing as a woman's perspective.

     

    However if you are inclined to believe that there are differences and that they are significant, you better be ready to accept some uncomfortable truths and heartbreaking facts. Are you?

  • Reply 79 of 85
    qvakqvak Posts: 86member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post

     



    Are these actual words that an actual human being believes?


     

    Maybe he meant Windows 95 and Palm OS

  • Reply 80 of 85
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,388member
    Originally Posted by qvak View Post

    However if you are inclined to believe that there are differences and that they are significant, you better be ready to accept some uncomfortable truths and heartbreaking facts. Are you?




    Wouldn’t the truths only be uncomfortable for those who don’t believe they’re different? If you believe there are differences, the facts would only strengthen your position.

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