I've never been arrested, imprisoned, or in court, but aren't most felony sentences at least 5-7 years, due to severity of crime? Or is it 7 years after release? And if so, then why even have a prison system for criminals? Isn't the point of prison for you to pay your debt to society, which is why some crimes have more serious sentences. So you pay your debt to society yet you still can't get a job or live a normal life? Why release anyone from prison then? Why not just execute every criminal on the spot.
In California there is a law that makes it a felony if a criminal steals $950 or more of merchandise and a misdemeanor if less. So someone who steals $949.99 worth of items is totally forgiven and allowed to live life free of any dark clouds or debilitations, yet someone who steals 1¢ more worth is forever branded a societal stain and is thrown away in the proverbial prison, not allowed to get a job, not allowed to be around kids, not allowed to vote, has to sit in prison for his crime while the other has to do some community service.
I hope they're only discriminating against straight, white, Christian felons and not against transgender, gay, eskimo, female and other helpless minority felons.
Some bugs are insanely small and simple, they fit under a layer of paint. However, nowadays you can shoot a fine laser beam at a window and read the vibrations, kinda similar to how CDs work, there are way more sinister ways to spy than the old fashion bug.
That is not how a CD works. A CD is digital, nothing but 0's and 1's. Where there's a pit (or dark spot), the laser don't reflect back and thus are 1's. Where the laser reflect back are 0's. All the 0's and 1's make up bytes and words and a DAC (Digital Analog Converter) is used to convert it back to electrical current to produce analog sound. Nothing is vibrating.
It's more like how a laser disc works. A laser disc is analog. The dark area of a laser disc are of different lengths and causes the laser to pulsate at various frequencies and the result is similar to the TV signals that are transmitted over the airwaves. (Back in the old days of analog signals.)
This would be how a laser on a window pane can be used as a listening device. The changing air pressure in a room due to sound, vibrates the pane at various frequencies and a laser picks up the minute vibrations and converted them back into the sound waves that produced them. No digital 0's and 1's involve.
But it is most similar to a stylus and cartridge vibrating from the micro ridges in the groove of a vinyl record and turning it back into electrical current. Only a laser is used to capture the vibration. The window behaves exactly like the micro ridges of a vinyl record. Or the diaphragm on a microphone.
That is not how a CD works. A CD is digital, nothing but 0's and 1's. Where there's a pit (or dark spot), the laser don't reflect back and thus are 1's. Where the laser reflect back are 0's. All the 0's and 1's make up bytes and words and a DAC (Digital Analog Converter) is used to convert it back to electrical current to produce analog sound. Nothing is vibrating.
It's more like how a laser disc works. A laser disc is analog. The dark area of a laser disc are of different lengths and causes the laser to pulsate at various frequencies and the result is similar to the TV signals that are transmitted over the airwaves. (Back in the old days of analog signals.)
This would be how a laser on a window pane can be used as a listening device. The changing air pressure in a room due to sound, vibrates the pane at various frequencies and a laser picks up the minute vibrations and converted them back into the sound waves that produced them. No digital 0's and 1's involve.
But it is most similar to a stylus and cartridge vibrating from the micro ridges in the groove of a vinyl record and turning it back into electrical current. Only a laser is used to capture the vibration. The window behaves exactly like the micro ridges of a vinyl record. Or the diaphragm on a microphone.
8. Targeted Exclusions that Are Guided by the Green Factors
"...Title VII thus does not necessarily require individualized assessment in all circumstances. However, the use of individualized assessments can help employers avoid Title VII liability by allowing them to consider more complete information on individual applicants or employees, as part of a policy that is job related and consistent with business necessity...."
Also some relevant bits in "9. Individualized Assessment" and "VIII. Employer Best Practices"
Paragraph 44: "We cannot conceive of any business necessity that would automatically place every individual convicted of any offense, except a minor traffic offense, in the permanent ranks of the unemployed. ... To deny job opportunities to these individuals because of some conduct which may be remote in time or does not significantly bear upon the particular job requirements is an unnecessarily harsh and unjust burden.
It is from the Society of HR Managers and recommends an individual assessment as a best practice and indicates that 88% of employers do this.
So, my reading is that while it may be OK to have a blanket policy, you are on more secure legal footing if you allow an individual assessment, particularly the ability for the individual to try and explain the facts or circumstances surrounding the offense or conduct.
It is unclear from the articles if Apple has such a policy.
For the reasons given above, I conclude that plaintiff's claim is without merit and I will dismiss the action.
It seems that so long as the blanket exclusion, of people seeking employment, based on criminal background doesn't overtly bias any group of people based on race, religion, sex, age, etc., then even the court (or even the EEOC) doesn't really see anything wrong with using criminal background check as a qualification for employment.
However, if an employer is excluding a disproportionate amount of people of a certain race, age, sex, religion, etc., with their blanket exclusion policy, then the employer must try to remedy the situation by doing more screening or changing the criteria of their policy. Otherwise the policy may be in violation of some group civil rights. The EEOC is more concern about employers using a blanket policy of not hiring convicted felons as a way to discriminate in some other ways, than of any actual discrimination of a person based on him being a convicted felon.
I doubt very much if Apple will come under the scrutiny of the EEOC as only 7 convicted felons have been fired due to their policy. I don't think 7 out of thousands of workers (some of which are felons but convicted over 7 years ago.) would prove to be a significant figure to use to prove some other form of discrimination, unless maybe they are all of a single race or religion.
Katie Cotton must be rolling her eyes! You can't come out guns a blazing and denounce discrimination, and then turn around and adopt policies that discriminate. What's Tim going to do now? Issue a statement? Have a press conference? Yikes! My guess is they will adopt their old ways and say nothing until it blows over. Lets not forget, Apple is in the entertainment business and works and profits with & off of numerous convicted felons everyday. So it's ok to make money off of previous felons, but against their standards to help someone make a living who has already paid thier debt to society? Plus i'm sure there are a few criminals Tim and team rub elbows with, i.e. Chinese Gov't, Lobbyists, Bankers, etc.... Apple execs need to keep their mouths shut and just do what they do best, make great innovative products that people love.
Are you a felon or something? Or perhaps somebody in your family is a felon?
I am in good company with Tim Cook and Apple here! We both discriminate against felons!
If you don't like that, well then that's just too damn bad, and there aint a darned thing that you can do about it! " src="http://forums-files.appleinsider.com/images/smilies//lol.gif" />
Except that minorities are often labeled felons even when they are not regardless of the evidence presented before them. This has always been a fact. Apple should be worried about everyone not just those who have a conviction on their record. Look at those who crashed the stock markets in 08. None of them were charged by even the Obama administration.
In California there is a law that makes it a felony if a criminal steals $950 or more of merchandise and a misdemeanor if less. So someone who steals $949.99 worth of items is totally forgiven and allowed to live life free of any dark clouds or debilitations, yet someone who steals 1¢ more worth is forever branded a societal stain and is thrown away in the proverbial prison, not allowed to get a job, not allowed to be around kids, not allowed to vote, has to sit in prison for his crime while the other has to do some community service.
Yeah. I think this is also something to consider the type of crime that was committed. If it's an honesty type crime it may be more concerning than a low level crime like drinking or a fight or something like that....
I've never been arrested, imprisoned, or in court, but aren't most felony sentences at least 5-7 years, due to severity of crime? Or is it 7 years after release? And if so, then why even have a prison system for criminals? Isn't the point of prison for you to pay your debt to society, which is why some crimes have more serious sentences. So you pay your debt to society yet you still can't get a job or live a normal life? Why release anyone from prison then? Why not just execute every criminal on the spot.
It seems like a lot of felonies these days are caused by mental illness. As long as they were actually treated in prison (probably assuming too much), I don't see any reason they shouldn't be treated like any other person. Apple should probably just screen them if they are concerned. If there were only 5 people, it can't be too much work.
Apple is one of many companies that avoid hiring felons. Just because a felon has served their time does not mean that they are free & clear of the problems of the original crime. The pain & suffering often follows one for a life time - after all, just because you do the time, does not mean you are free to vote, carry a firearm, etc. One should also not expect to have the crime and punishment wiped off their record. The felon may have been completely reformed, or they may not. Sometimes the record is "wiped" or "cleaned" so as to never show there was a felonious crime conviction.
I don't think the labor unions, the liberals, the conservatives should put their noses into Apple's Business or that of the Bar Associations or any other company. If an attorney is a convicted felon, he loses his law license. That does not keep the attorney from working at another gainful pursuit, but it does keep them out of practicing law. It then takes a lot of people supporting the attorney as being a truly reformed individual for that person to be able to regain their law license. I know such a person. He was finally able to return to the practice of law.
There are just as many people who get caught and sentenced as there are that are not caught. The best thing is for us, the general public, to do is to stay out of the Human Resources Department of our corporations, etc. There are valid reasons why people are not hired. Corporations cannot afford the Risk until they know the person is ok. We don't know that ourselves.
As an individual, I do not hire a person to clean leaves off my roof when I know they have had a problem. That doesn't help the needy person very much, but it does help me. I cannot risk the problem of a fall - I lessen the potential of a problem buy telling them that I cannot continue to hire them to do odd jobs because my insurance company has advised me not to do it.
It is not Apple, per say, but the Attorneys & the Insurance Companies who do not want Risky People hired. In effect, some are very good at what they do . . . very good.
Starting salary for janitors in the department offices already is $136,200 and requires Secret clearance and two levels of video surveillance. I shudder to think what security Mr. Cook has.
We imprison a higher percentage of our population than any other country in the world. We have to understand that that's not sustainable and find solutions to reduce the prison population. But unless jobs are found for these people, they have almost no choice but to commit crimes again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60
From an outsiders perspective this situation seems to have come about due to the privatisation of prisons and their use to make profits for the companies that run them, they actively lobby to create more prisoners, through supporting stricter laws.
It has become a high stakes industry.
That's true and it's also because the unions use fear tactics whenever prison workers' jobs are threatened (and for the record, I'm not anti-union). But it's also because of a "law and order" psychology, minimum sentencing and "three strikes you're out" laws, the use of "broken windows" policing where any crime is treated seriously, archaic drug laws that don't work and racism, since as of 2009, 39% of prisoners were non-hispanic blacks when all blacks (including hispanic blacks) represent less than 14% of the U.S. population.
Unfortunately, even those Americans who believe that the Federal and State governments are ripping us off with high taxes don't see any correlation between those taxes and the ever-increasing prison population. But they still remember the crime waves that gripped many American cities, especially in the 70s and 80s and so most Americans take a hard line or are indifferent to the prison population. Estimates vary, but at $30,000 per prisoner, it's got to be costing us something like $120 billion annually to lock up almost 1% of the U.S. population. Housing for prisoners who can't afford bail and are awaiting trial alone costs $9 billion. Is there any wonder we don't have enough money for schools and infrastructure?
Personally, I think anyone locked up for non-violent drug crimes should be released from prison. That alone would save a fortune in taxpayer dollars.
Starting salary for janitors in the department offices already is $136,200 and requires Secret clearance and two levels of video surveillance. I shudder to think what security Mr. Cook has.
On the off-chance that this isn't sarcasm, I'd say you're woefully misinformed or full of crap. I'd believe that a superintendent of a facility or a building manager makes that kind of money, but I refuse to believe that a starting janitor makes much more than minimum wage. Apple may pay well, but they don't pay that well.
I doubt very much if Apple will come under the scrutiny of the EEOC as only 7 convicted felons have been fired due to their policy. I don't think 7 out of thousands of workers (some of which are felons but convicted over 7 years ago.) would prove to be a significant figure to use to prove some other form of discrimination, unless maybe they are all of a single race or religion.
Probably not. And I was also imagine that Apple has an 'individualized assessment' mechanism as the EEOC best practices recommends, but that this was not reported.
I know that there are a large number of criminals out there that will never be anything aside from criminals.
That aside, I'm a big believer in the "once you have paid your debt to society, and keep your nose clean".
I also still want to believe in the whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing. Guess I am just naive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cali
Does anyone realize how easy it is to get a felony? Like someone above posted, it's too easy. YOU can be a felon tomorrow.
I grew up in a tough neighborhood and the cops there were handing out felonies like candy. J-Walking, traffic stops, suspicion of anything, heck even for just walking. The cops were playing the system like a game. I was almost a felon after a cop put me in handcuffs and continued to beat me at my High School. Luckily I had a good public defender who proved the police were lying, but you guessed it, they weren't tried for their crimes.
If a company is installing expensive machinery, or in the position where competitors/press would offer money/gifts in exchange for trade secrets, then no you'd probably not want a person with recent criminal history working on your project.
Since it's above the scope of privacy to explore the committed felony, then a blanket policy would need to be enacted.
You only need one person to sell out company secrets or plant a listening device.
Considering's Apple's competitors, this actually seems like a very reasonable policy.
Comments
Some bugs are insanely small and simple, they fit under a layer of paint. However, nowadays you can shoot a fine laser beam at a window and read the vibrations, kinda similar to how CDs work, there are way more sinister ways to spy than the old fashion bug.
That is not how a CD works. A CD is digital, nothing but 0's and 1's. Where there's a pit (or dark spot), the laser don't reflect back and thus are 1's. Where the laser reflect back are 0's. All the 0's and 1's make up bytes and words and a DAC (Digital Analog Converter) is used to convert it back to electrical current to produce analog sound. Nothing is vibrating.
It's more like how a laser disc works. A laser disc is analog. The dark area of a laser disc are of different lengths and causes the laser to pulsate at various frequencies and the result is similar to the TV signals that are transmitted over the airwaves. (Back in the old days of analog signals.)
This would be how a laser on a window pane can be used as a listening device. The changing air pressure in a room due to sound, vibrates the pane at various frequencies and a laser picks up the minute vibrations and converted them back into the sound waves that produced them. No digital 0's and 1's involve.
But it is most similar to a stylus and cartridge vibrating from the micro ridges in the groove of a vinyl record and turning it back into electrical current. Only a laser is used to capture the vibration. The window behaves exactly like the micro ridges of a vinyl record. Or the diaphragm on a microphone.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_microphone
I'm not a lawyer either, so this is based on my reading of http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/guidance/arrest_conviction.cfm#VB9
Particularly:
8. Targeted Exclusions that Are Guided by the Green Factors
"...Title VII thus does not necessarily require individualized assessment in all circumstances. However, the use of individualized assessments can help employers avoid Title VII liability by allowing them to consider more complete information on individual applicants or employees, as part of a policy that is job related and consistent with business necessity...."
Also some relevant bits in "9. Individualized Assessment" and "VIII. Employer Best Practices"
Green vs. Missouri Pacific:
http://openjurist.org/523/f2d/1290/green-v-missouri-pacific-railroad-company
Paragraph 44: "We cannot conceive of any business necessity that would automatically place every individual convicted of any offense, except a minor traffic offense, in the permanent ranks of the unemployed. ... To deny job opportunities to these individuals because of some conduct which may be remote in time or does not significantly bear upon the particular job requirements is an unnecessarily harsh and unjust burden.
This might be of interest as well:
https://www.shrm.org/Advocacy/issues/documents/special report final - silverman on eeoc guidance 042712.pdf
It is from the Society of HR Managers and recommends an individual assessment as a best practice and indicates that 88% of employers do this.
So, my reading is that while it may be OK to have a blanket policy, you are on more secure legal footing if you allow an individual assessment, particularly the ability for the individual to try and explain the facts or circumstances surrounding the offense or conduct.
It is unclear from the articles if Apple has such a policy.
http://www.leagle.com/decision/19741373381FSupp992_11210.xml/GREEN v. MISSOURI PACIFIC RAILROAD COMPANY
This one a little easier to read
At the end of the article t …...
For the reasons given above, I conclude that plaintiff's claim is without merit and I will dismiss the action.
It seems that so long as the blanket exclusion, of people seeking employment, based on criminal background doesn't overtly bias any group of people based on race, religion, sex, age, etc., then even the court (or even the EEOC) doesn't really see anything wrong with using criminal background check as a qualification for employment.
However, if an employer is excluding a disproportionate amount of people of a certain race, age, sex, religion, etc., with their blanket exclusion policy, then the employer must try to remedy the situation by doing more screening or changing the criteria of their policy. Otherwise the policy may be in violation of some group civil rights. The EEOC is more concern about employers using a blanket policy of not hiring convicted felons as a way to discriminate in some other ways, than of any actual discrimination of a person based on him being a convicted felon.
I doubt very much if Apple will come under the scrutiny of the EEOC as only 7 convicted felons have been fired due to their policy. I don't think 7 out of thousands of workers (some of which are felons but convicted over 7 years ago.) would prove to be a significant figure to use to prove some other form of discrimination, unless maybe they are all of a single race or religion.
Katie Cotton must be rolling her eyes! You can't come out guns a blazing and denounce discrimination, and then turn around and adopt policies that discriminate. What's Tim going to do now? Issue a statement? Have a press conference? Yikes! My guess is they will adopt their old ways and say nothing until it blows over. Lets not forget, Apple is in the entertainment business and works and profits with & off of numerous convicted felons everyday. So it's ok to make money off of previous felons, but against their standards to help someone make a living who has already paid thier debt to society? Plus i'm sure there are a few criminals Tim and team rub elbows with, i.e. Chinese Gov't, Lobbyists, Bankers, etc.... Apple execs need to keep their mouths shut and just do what they do best, make great innovative products that people love.
Are you a felon or something? Or perhaps somebody in your family is a felon?
I am in good company with Tim Cook and Apple here! We both discriminate against felons!
If you don't like that, well then that's just too damn bad, and there aint a darned thing that you can do about it!
" src="http://forums-files.appleinsider.com/images/smilies//lol.gif" />
Except that minorities are often labeled felons even when they are not regardless of the evidence presented before them. This has always been a fact. Apple should be worried about everyone not just those who have a conviction on their record. Look at those who crashed the stock markets in 08. None of them were charged by even the Obama administration.
In California there is a law that makes it a felony if a criminal steals $950 or more of merchandise and a misdemeanor if less. So someone who steals $949.99 worth of items is totally forgiven and allowed to live life free of any dark clouds or debilitations, yet someone who steals 1¢ more worth is forever branded a societal stain and is thrown away in the proverbial prison, not allowed to get a job, not allowed to be around kids, not allowed to vote, has to sit in prison for his crime while the other has to do some community service.
Yeah. I think this is also something to consider the type of crime that was committed. If it's an honesty type crime it may be more concerning than a low level crime like drinking or a fight or something like that....
I've never been arrested, imprisoned, or in court, but aren't most felony sentences at least 5-7 years, due to severity of crime? Or is it 7 years after release? And if so, then why even have a prison system for criminals? Isn't the point of prison for you to pay your debt to society, which is why some crimes have more serious sentences. So you pay your debt to society yet you still can't get a job or live a normal life? Why release anyone from prison then? Why not just execute every criminal on the spot.
It seems like a lot of felonies these days are caused by mental illness. As long as they were actually treated in prison (probably assuming too much), I don't see any reason they shouldn't be treated like any other person. Apple should probably just screen them if they are concerned. If there were only 5 people, it can't be too much work.
Apple is one of many companies that avoid hiring felons. Just because a felon has served their time does not mean that they are free & clear of the problems of the original crime. The pain & suffering often follows one for a life time - after all, just because you do the time, does not mean you are free to vote, carry a firearm, etc. One should also not expect to have the crime and punishment wiped off their record. The felon may have been completely reformed, or they may not. Sometimes the record is "wiped" or "cleaned" so as to never show there was a felonious crime conviction.
I don't think the labor unions, the liberals, the conservatives should put their noses into Apple's Business or that of the Bar Associations or any other company. If an attorney is a convicted felon, he loses his law license. That does not keep the attorney from working at another gainful pursuit, but it does keep them out of practicing law. It then takes a lot of people supporting the attorney as being a truly reformed individual for that person to be able to regain their law license. I know such a person. He was finally able to return to the practice of law.
There are just as many people who get caught and sentenced as there are that are not caught. The best thing is for us, the general public, to do is to stay out of the Human Resources Department of our corporations, etc. There are valid reasons why people are not hired. Corporations cannot afford the Risk until they know the person is ok. We don't know that ourselves.
As an individual, I do not hire a person to clean leaves off my roof when I know they have had a problem. That doesn't help the needy person very much, but it does help me. I cannot risk the problem of a fall - I lessen the potential of a problem buy telling them that I cannot continue to hire them to do odd jobs because my insurance company has advised me not to do it.
It is not Apple, per say, but the Attorneys & the Insurance Companies who do not want Risky People hired. In effect, some are very good at what they do . . . very good.
We imprison a higher percentage of our population than any other country in the world. We have to understand that that's not sustainable and find solutions to reduce the prison population. But unless jobs are found for these people, they have almost no choice but to commit crimes again.
From an outsiders perspective this situation seems to have come about due to the privatisation of prisons and their use to make profits for the companies that run them, they actively lobby to create more prisoners, through supporting stricter laws.
It has become a high stakes industry.
That's true and it's also because the unions use fear tactics whenever prison workers' jobs are threatened (and for the record, I'm not anti-union). But it's also because of a "law and order" psychology, minimum sentencing and "three strikes you're out" laws, the use of "broken windows" policing where any crime is treated seriously, archaic drug laws that don't work and racism, since as of 2009, 39% of prisoners were non-hispanic blacks when all blacks (including hispanic blacks) represent less than 14% of the U.S. population.
Unfortunately, even those Americans who believe that the Federal and State governments are ripping us off with high taxes don't see any correlation between those taxes and the ever-increasing prison population. But they still remember the crime waves that gripped many American cities, especially in the 70s and 80s and so most Americans take a hard line or are indifferent to the prison population. Estimates vary, but at $30,000 per prisoner, it's got to be costing us something like $120 billion annually to lock up almost 1% of the U.S. population. Housing for prisoners who can't afford bail and are awaiting trial alone costs $9 billion. Is there any wonder we don't have enough money for schools and infrastructure?
Personally, I think anyone locked up for non-violent drug crimes should be released from prison. That alone would save a fortune in taxpayer dollars.
Starting salary for janitors in the department offices already is $136,200 and requires Secret clearance and two levels of video surveillance. I shudder to think what security Mr. Cook has.
On the off-chance that this isn't sarcasm, I'd say you're woefully misinformed or full of crap. I'd believe that a superintendent of a facility or a building manager makes that kind of money, but I refuse to believe that a starting janitor makes much more than minimum wage. Apple may pay well, but they don't pay that well.
I doubt very much if Apple will come under the scrutiny of the EEOC as only 7 convicted felons have been fired due to their policy. I don't think 7 out of thousands of workers (some of which are felons but convicted over 7 years ago.) would prove to be a significant figure to use to prove some other form of discrimination, unless maybe they are all of a single race or religion.
Probably not. And I was also imagine that Apple has an 'individualized assessment' mechanism as the EEOC best practices recommends, but that this was not reported.
+1
I know that there are a large number of criminals out there that will never be anything aside from criminals.
That aside, I'm a big believer in the "once you have paid your debt to society, and keep your nose clean".
I also still want to believe in the whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing. Guess I am just naive.
Quote:
Does anyone realize how easy it is to get a felony? Like someone above posted, it's too easy. YOU can be a felon tomorrow.
I grew up in a tough neighborhood and the cops there were handing out felonies like candy. J-Walking, traffic stops, suspicion of anything, heck even for just walking. The cops were playing the system like a game. I was almost a felon after a cop put me in handcuffs and continued to beat me at my High School. Luckily I had a good public defender who proved the police were lying, but you guessed it, they weren't tried for their crimes.
Not all felons are criminals and not all
criminals are felons. This should be obvious.
Since it's above the scope of privacy to explore the committed felony, then a blanket policy would need to be enacted.
You only need one person to sell out company secrets or plant a listening device.
Considering's Apple's competitors, this actually seems like a very reasonable policy.